The ink on Pope Francis’s first interview was still fresh on the presses when he gave a second interview. This is not bad for a man who said that he used to dislike interviews. But this method of proceeding was, I believe, strategic.

The first interview was given to ‘church’ magazines. The second one was with a secular newspaper. The first interview was with believers, mainly the Jesuits (I guess they qualify as believers!). The second interview was with a lapsed Catholic; someone who considers himself an unbeliever. I refer to the second interview with La Repubblica's founder, Eugenio Scalfari.

Let’s look at the method before we touch the content. This is how Scalfari described the invitation:

“It was half past two in the afternoon. My phone rings and in a somewhat shaky voice my secretary tells me: "I have the Pope on the line. I'll put him through immediately."

I was still stunned when I heard the voice of His Holiness on the other end of the line saying, "Hello, this is Pope Francis." "Hello Your Holiness", I say and then, "I am shocked I did not expect you to call me." "Why so surprised? You wrote me a letter asking to meet me in person. I had the same wish, so I'm calling to fix an appointment. Let me look at my diary: I can't do Wednesday, nor Monday, would Tuesday suit you?"

I answer, that's fine.

"The time is a little awkward, three in the afternoon, is that okay? Otherwise it'll have to be another day." Your Holiness, the time is fine. "So we agree: Tuesday 24 at 3 o'clock. At Santa Marta. You have to come into the door at the Sant'Uffizio."

I don't know how to end this call and let myself go, saying: "Can I embrace you by phone?" "Of course, a hug from me too. Then we will do it in person, goodbye."

When they meet, Pope Francis tells Scalfari: "Some of my colleagues who know you told me that you will try to convert me." Scalfari answered in the same jocular mood: “My friends think it is you want to convert me.”

Then there is the content. One bombshell follows another.

Is the Pope trying to convert Scalfari?

This was his answer: “"Proselytism is solemn nonsense, it makes no sense. We need to get to know each other, listen to each other and improve our knowledge of the world around us.”

Francis does not mince his words. “Heads of the Church have often been narcissists, flattered and thrilled by their courtiers.” The Pope’s definition of narcissist is far from endearing. He describes narcissists as those who love themselves excessively and opines that this is a kind of mental disorder.

Another bombshell follows. “The court is the leprosy of the papacy." Quite naturally Scalfari suspects that the Pope is referring to the Curia. The Pope answers in the negative though he concedes that “there are sometimes courtiers in the curia.”

Although the Pope clearly states that the Curia is not the leprosy of the Papacy I have read media outlets who wrote that the Pope said that the Curia is so. One never wins with ‘journalists’ who want to be sensational.

I read this week a local correspondent stating that the Pope did not use the ‘luxurious’ Papal apartments preferring to live in Casa Sancta Martha. The Pope has repeatedly stated that the Papal apartments are not luxurious. Who is telling the truth Pope Francis or this local correspondent who never set foot in the Papal apartments?

Stating that the Curia is not ‘leprosy’ the Pope then did not hold back from criticising it.

“It has one defect: it is Vatican-centric. It sees and looks after the interests of the Vatican, which are still, for the most part, temporal interests. This Vatican-centric view neglects the world around us.”

He then states his position:

“I do not share this view and I'll do everything I can to change it. The Church is or should go back to being a community of God's people, and priests, pastors and bishops who have the care of souls, are at the service of the people of God. … I would not have been able to have complete faith in God and in his Son if I had not been trained in the Church, and if I had not had the good fortune of being in Argentina, in a community without which I would not have become aware myself and my faith. "

The exchange between Pope Francis and Scalfari about Liberation Theology is quite telling:

Scalfari: Liberation theology, which Pope John Paul II excommunicated, was widespread in Latin America.

Pope: Yes, many of its members were Argentines."

Scalfari: Do you think it was right that the Pope fought against them?

Pope: It certainly gave a political aspect to their theology, but many of them were believers and with a high concept of humanity.

The Pope’s words are measured but the fact that he did not in any way condemn Liberation Theology is very important.

One final point about content.

Scalfari says that he is not anticlerical but continued saying that he will become so when he meets a clericalist.

I guess the answer of Pope Francis surprised him.

"It also happens to me that when I meet a clericalist, I suddenly become anti-clerical. Clericalism should not have anything to do with Christianity."

The interview is full of such beautiful gems.

Don’t depend on commentaries or summaries. I suggest you read it.

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