IVF bill humiliating but can be salvaged - Muscat
The IVF bill is humiliating for parents, children and professionals, Labour leader Joseph Muscat said this evening.
Speaking in Parliament, during the debate on the bill for the protection of the embryo, Dr Muscat said the Opposition would be voting in favour of the second reading not because it agreed with the bill as presented but because it agreed on the need to regulate.
It also believed that the bill could be salvaged but it would be moving crucial amendments at committee stage, he said. He proposed the committee stage to be debated in plenary and it was willing to agree on a timetable that would wholly cover the debate by the end of next week.
The Opposition, Dr Muscat said, believed that it would be irresponsible if, after so many years of debate, the current vacuum was allowed to continue.
The law the House would enact would not be perfect and could present moral dilemmas for some.
Dr Muscat said he was willing to give the bill the benefit of the doubt because he believed it could be changed and improved.
Declaring himself as a liberal, he said this to him meant not to be afraid to be labelled.
“We have to show European courage in our country, live European values and ideas in Malta.”
He said that as someone who had served in the European Parliament, this was not the first time he had had to face dilemmas and questions.
To be in a group and in a part of Parliament where abortion was a right and stand up and say you did not agree was not easy but it showed that you were willing to work for what he believed in.
In the same way MPs had to have the courage to implement progressive ideas.
The law that would be enacted would be the result of a compromise. It would not be perfect and some would not like it. However, it was crucial so as not to continue to allow a vacuum.
Dr Muscat said that one of the concepts being introduced was that of embryo freezing and it was very important that the House was conscious of what it was trying to do.
For this fact destroyed the myth that IVF or embryo freezing was equivalent to abortion, about which there was consensus against in Parliament.
He promised that a new government would be committed to ensure that the public health service offered IVF free of charge to couples who needed it.
The Labour leader said the Opposition could not agree with the introduction of a planning authority for birth, as was being proposed.
For the bill was proposing, he said, that a couple had to apply for a permit to become parents. This was humiliating and intolerable, a vision of a big brother government the opposition could not agree with.
He said that while there could be abuse, parents opting for IVF were being seen as capricious, nearly criminal and having ulterior motives.
Those opting for IVF, he said, little thought about their baby would look and the kind of attitude presented by the bill was atrocious and similar to a theocracy edict. It was abominable.
The way the bill was written was putting those who wanted to use this technology under suspicion, labelling them guilty unless proven otherwise.
Dr Muscat said that the bill was restrictive and impractical and unless it was changed it would not change the current situation. It would also lead to more people being advised not to waste time in Malta but to go for the treatment abroad.
Certificates, he said, should not be issued by the proposed authority but by the professionals who would have consulted the couple.
This authority, he insisted, should be removed at committee stage because he did not have confidence in it and would end up being another unnecessary bureaucracy.
On the number of embryos to be implanted, he said that the fact that the number was increased from two to three within a week of the bill being launched, showed how half baked the bill was.
The bill, Dr Muscat said, was proposing a straight jacket and the opposition wanted to allow the professionals to treat case by case individually and decide accordingly.
The Labour leader noted that there could be a case where both parents died while the embryo was being fertilised. The bill should make clear what would be done in such instances and introduce concepts on the adoption of frozen embryos with the family court being the forum that would decide what should be done. There was agreement that the adoption procedure should not be against payment.
He said it was wrong that the bill threatened professionals with prison, the attitude, he said, should be different as there were other solutions which could be taken and medical professionals should not be treated as criminals.
The bill should also widen as much as possible the concept allowing professionals to decide not to take part in the process because of moral convictions without being penalised for their decision.
A grey area, he said, was on what would happen in the case of specialists referring couples abroad for an IVF process which could include concepts not included in local law.
It should be made clear that these professionals would not be criminally liable for giving such advice.
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Glen Rund
Nov 15th 2012, 11:49
Even if the cost of an IVF is subsidized or paid for altogether by the state the couple still needs to go through an extremely strenuous physical and psychological process. Have heart to help and not hinder your Maltese compatriots. Your friendliness to foreigners is legendary so use the same to truly understand, and not assume as many are doing, what the whole process entails.
Joseph Aquilina
Nov 15th 2012, 12:28
1) What will happen to abandoned fertilized embryos?
2) If X amount of embryos are fertilized; can the couple request that only Y amount of embryos are implanted? What will happen to the X-Y embryo?
3) What will be the process for embryo adoption. Will the couple be able to select embryos by checking from a book the qualities of such embryo (ex: father had blond hair)?
Joseph Aquilina
Nov 15th 2012, 12:30
If you notice many who are against embryo freezing are not against a couple having children (indeed many of us encourage research in this line); but in favour of ALSO safeguarding the 3rd parties involved; i.e. - all life that is generated with the IVF process and to avoid playing gods (ex: selecting which embryo has a chance to continue in the walk of life and which not for one reason or another)
Joseph Aquilina
Nov 15th 2012, 13:05
To be more clear. I am not against an IVF law. It is very important that in Malta we have a law on IVF. What I and many others are against is an IVF law that does not respect the fact that "life begins from conception".
Glen Rund
Nov 15th 2012, 13:10
Imagine a couple that has experienced multiple IVF failures. PGD determines that most of the embryos have chromosomal derangement, in short NO WAY will they develop into anything let alone healthy babies. In this way, YES, than PGD should as HAS TO be used to select the right embryo. This is NOT playing GOD, this is science. Incidentally even healthy embryos is NO GUARANTEE of a baby.
Glen Rund
Nov 15th 2012, 11:45
The system of an authority is also flawed and will give rise to abuse. Malta as I understand is a very small country so the risk of "leakage" is also very high. In the wrong hands this information could wrack havoc on the already very delicate state of the couple in question where their actions will be judged by society. Seeking permission to have a child is ridiculous even in archaic countries.
joseph saliba
Nov 15th 2012, 10:46
'Declaring himself as a liberal, he said this to him meant not to be afraid to be labelled'. As far as I know he stamped himself first. The question is should a politician label others indiscriminately? Or should a label be fixed on the mouth.
Joseph Cauchi Senior
Nov 15th 2012, 10:45
Now, that Joseph Muscat had declared publicly in the House of Representatives that he is a LIBERAL, (therefore no longer a Socialist); could someone kindly tell me what this means and whether the MLP will leave the PES and join the Liberal group ALDE?
Thanking you in advance.
JC.
Amante Reale
Nov 15th 2012, 10:51
Liberal and Socialist are not mutually exclusive.
Learn some politics.
Joseph Aquilina
Nov 15th 2012, 12:40
@Amante Reale
Yes you are right, and Joseph Muscat is a clear example of that; when the tide goes one way he is a Socialist, and when the tide goes the other way; he becomes a Liberal!! Wonder what he will do when he gets to know that the PEOPLE want a real leader; rather then one that changes his line of thinking based on what is printed on the media!!
edward camilleri
Nov 15th 2012, 10:16
This article is interesting
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2232989/MEN-blame-cases-unexplained-infertility--new-test-help-couples-succeed.html
Patrick Zammit
Nov 15th 2012, 08:43
Why should it be a problem for Maltese nationals to undergo IVF procedures in other countries which are illegal in Malta?
We now know that staunch Catholics, who rely on conscience in Malta and science in Brussels, see nothing wrong even with abortion carried on Maltese nationals in countries where it is legal.
Joseph Aquilina
Nov 15th 2012, 10:51
That is not true; Do not try to change the words of Tonio Borg; he said it is not illegal (since the action was not done on Maltese soil), but he never said they such practices are not immoral.
Kevin Cassar
Nov 15th 2012, 11:20
@ Joseph Aquilina
Immoral, apart from being subjective, does not equal illegal (although not so long ago it unbelievably was). Talk about changing words!
Patrick Zammit
Nov 15th 2012, 12:02
Joseph, will T Borg try to propose anti abortion legislation in the EU just like he tried to push anti abortion law into the Constitution?
Joseph Aquilina
Nov 15th 2012, 12:21
@Kevin Cassar
Where did I say that immoral equals illegal?
Joseph Aquilina
Nov 15th 2012, 12:43
@Patrick Zammit
Did you hear what Tonio Borg said during the interview; or you are talking without not even knowing what was said. Tonio Borg made it very clear that EU laws make it impossible for him to force any such thing on other countries because on that matter each country is sovereign.
Patrick Zammit
Nov 15th 2012, 13:57
Joseph, Commissioners have a right to propose laws and/or amendments to them. So my question is still valid.
John Spiteri
Nov 15th 2012, 08:13
Joseph Muscat dosen't respect life from the time of conception. Is he a Catholic? We are all brothers and sisters in Christ. Does he not know that it is a commandment not to kill?
C Bartolo
Nov 15th 2012, 08:37
Really? I see no indication that Joseph Muscat does not respect life from the time of conception. None at all.
Joseph Aquilina
Nov 15th 2012, 09:15
@John Spiteri
Depends, if you are Catholic then he is more Christian then the Pope himself else if you are a liberal he automatically becomes more liberal then those liberals in the EU! You know, there is a Joseph with a different version for everyone.
Eddy Privitera
Nov 15th 2012, 10:37
John Spiteri: Don't start bringing religion into the argument.After all, a law should not be addressed to Catholics but to all citizens living in Malta , who have various beliefs or no belief at all.
Eddy Privitera
Nov 15th 2012, 10:41
Joseph Aquilina: You should have addressed the words " There is a Joseph with a different version for everyone", to Dr. Tonio Borg, who admitted that he will be " a European commissioner " and not " a Maltese commissioner". And that his personal religious beliefs will be put aside when taking decisions as a commissioner !
Joseph Aquilina
Nov 15th 2012, 12:19
@Eddy Privitera
Here is where you are wrong; Tonio Borg was talking about the legal aspect while here we have Joseph Muscat which first told us he is against abortion; and now (ghax hekk hi il moda) he is telling us he is a liberal!! Liberals are in favor of abortion!!
pat muscat
Nov 15th 2012, 07:50
Issa la dahalna fl-Ewropa irridu d-drittijiet kollha li ghandhom l-Ewropej : is-separazzjoni bejn l-Istat u l-Knisja irdi jigi stat ta fatt mhux taparsi : il-ligijiet Maltain iridu jigu konformi ma dawk Ewropej illum qabel ghada. Kulhadd ra kif anke Vici Ministru- intelligenti u parola facile-hu meqjuz retrograd f'dak li ghandhom x'jaqsmu drittijiet socjali Ewropej: meta se nharsu l'quddiem?
Michael gonzi
Nov 15th 2012, 07:38
according to Joseph muscat might as well have the title of the law as the whole law and scrap everyhting .Protection of the embryo full stop . Leave everything in the hands of the medical people to do this . The concept of the whole law of IVF is to protect an indefensible "man made" human being . Someone not related to performing these procedures must be present to overlook the whole process .
Mr F J Brincat
Nov 15th 2012, 08:21
"Someone not related to performing these procedures must be present to overlook the whole process ." Like who? A doctor or a lawer? A priest or a responsibile adult? A liberal or conservative?
Malicia Dabrowicz
Nov 15th 2012, 01:28
Yes! Lets start being responsible and rational. First thing is to :DO NOT SPEAK if you have no idea how IVF works. And since Gift of Life has no idea on the topic of medicine, we expect P. Vincenti to finally rest his case. What he supports or not, is his private matter. Not a state affair.
Louis Cutajar
Nov 15th 2012, 07:49
Jekk niġu f'dan lanqas Joseph Muscat m'għandu idea tas-suġġett u allura wkoll m'għandux jitkellem. Meta wieħed jiffriża embrijun li huwa persuna diġa qed innaqqsu mir-rispett u d-dinjita lejn il-bniedem. U jekk dan jiġi aċċettat nispiċċaw b'eluf kbar ta' embrijuni żejda li ma jintużawx u jispiċċaw jiġu meqruda u dan huwa ekwivalenti għall-abort.
Brian Gatt
Nov 15th 2012, 09:29
@ Luis Cutajar and Joseph Fenech,
Who are you to judge? Who are you to criticise? Who gave you the power to decide the faith of others? Science has made quantum leaps and people like you are always in the forefront to block progress, using the excuse that you are doing it in the name of the Lord - You always have a hidden agenda and I think that keeping the people ignorant is one of them
Eddy Privitera
Nov 15th 2012, 10:44
Louis Cutajar: Joseph Muscat ghandu bizzejjed konsuleneti medici dwar dan is-suggett. Int liema konsulenti medici ikkonsultajt maghhom dwar dan is-sugget ?
Louis Cutajar
Nov 15th 2012, 10:50
Qatt ma nista dak li hu hażin ngħidlu tajjeb. Ix-xjenza hija tajba dment li tgħin il-bniedem, imma jekk tnaqqas id-dinjita tal-bniedem tkun qed tintuża ħażin. Li embrijun huwa bidu tal-ħajja huwa fatt ta' xjenza u mhux reliġjon u li għandu dritt għall-ħajja u rispett. Bniedem liberu ma jfissirx li jagħmel li jrid saħansitra jieħu l-liberta tal-oħrajn.
Louis Cutajar
Nov 15th 2012, 13:52
Sur Privitera, is-suġġett li bħalissa qed nistudja f'livell ta' Masters huwa Bioetika u naħseb li għandi formazzjoni vasta fuq is-suġġett.
Joseph Fenech
Nov 14th 2012, 22:55
Practicing Catholics take heed. After changing from Socialist to Labour, now Muscat has declared himself a LIBERAL. --- The Liberal Party Agenda is anathema to the Catholic Faith. Punto e basta
Eddy Privitera
Nov 15th 2012, 10:47
Joseph Fenech: Possibbli ma tafx kemm hawn fid-dinja Kattolici LIBERALI ? M'ilux wisq miet il-Kardinal Martini li qal li l-Knisja Kattolika qieghda 200 sena lura !
Joseph Aquilina
Nov 15th 2012, 12:47
@Eddy
Was il-Kardinal Martini in favor of abortion? I think NOT.
mark borg
Nov 14th 2012, 22:55
nghamel kuragg li ghandna nies bhal Dr.muscat hawn malta li kapaci jieqaf ghal min ghandu mentalita tal mediuevu.........li anke qed jirredikolowna ma l-ewropa kollha.
Joseph Brincat
Nov 14th 2012, 21:52
The IVF bill is humiliating for parents,
Are we in the EU or not ??
Are we EU stiizens or not ??
DO we have the same rights or not ??
Joseph Aquilina
Nov 15th 2012, 12:49
@Joseph Brincat
Are you a Maltese or not? In Malta; according to the EU laws itself, we are SOVEREIGN to decide what to do on these issues!! If you are not proud to be Maltese then do not throw your "I am easily impressed by foreigners" on us who are proud of our heritage; of what we believe!!
George Cremona
Nov 14th 2012, 21:42
Rather than showing "European courage in our country," we should show the Maltese courage of Christian values in Europe so that the Europeans live Maltese values and ideas in Europe Dr. Muscat. That's the way you should seek and follow if you truly believe in what you preach: "Make Malta the best in Europe".
Mr Julian Borg
Nov 14th 2012, 21:24
"Dr Muscat said the Opposition [...] agreed on the need to regulate."
Very liberal indeed.
Peter Paul Farrugia
Nov 14th 2012, 21:22
Are we so behind as to not even be aware of the existence of Liberal Socialism? Do any of you even read before or are you all a bunch of hypocritical wikipedians ?
Mr Joseph Carmel Chetcuti
Nov 15th 2012, 01:06
I am talking about the lack of logic and ability to think clearly. Fancy someone suggesting that there is no such thing as liberal socialism. It appears JCC never went past tan-nuna! As I often say, the little island of Malta is so blessed with so many professuri and bullies.
Joseph Aquilina
Nov 15th 2012, 12:53
Liberal = Pro Abortion
Joseph Muscat = Liberal
Therefore Joseph Muscat = Pro Abortion
Will Joseph Muscat once voted as PM opt to legalize abortion so he will look cool with his liberal friends in the EU? Since clearly from his speech he is more worried on what the EU thinks about us rather then WHAT WE THINK ABOUT OURSELVES!!
Joseph Cauchi Senior
Nov 14th 2012, 20:54
“Declaring himself as a liberal,…”
Oh, should the MLP be no longer Labour (Socialist) but the Malta LIBERAL Party?
Please clarify!
JC.
Jimmy Ventura
Nov 14th 2012, 22:43
Dear JCS
Its good to have your learned opinion on Dr. Tonio Borg's statement that he sees nothing wrong if a Maltese citizen goes to the UK to have an abortion.
Eddy Privitera
Nov 15th 2012, 10:57
Joseph cauchi Senior: There are a number of GonziPN MPs who have been projecting a LIBERAL stance, such as we have seen during the divorce debate and referendum !
P. Vincenti
Nov 14th 2012, 20:31
Gift of Life will not support any law that does not include the concept of having an authority in place.
The idea of removing the authority is not acceptable and if anything irresponsible. Without the authority overseeing IVF it is certain that abuse will take place, if not by our Maltese clinics, by a foreign clinic setting up in Malta.
L. Zammit
Nov 14th 2012, 21:53
Medical professionals in all sectors are trained to take the best decisions relating to the case in question, with the involvement of the client him/herself. I don't see why this should change in IVF's case.
Government doesn't decide who gets a heart transplant .. so why should it dictate who is eligible for IVF or not? Authority should stay out of the medical procedure itself.
Marija Falzon
Nov 14th 2012, 22:45
Dear Paul, I disagree with you completely. Professionals should be treated as so. If there is no trust in them, then don't let them function in the first place. It is unacceptable that a parent has to ask your permission to have children. Who will oversee the authority that it is doing a job properly, and not abusing its powers? are you suggesting that we create an endless hierarchy of checks
Lynn Zahra
Nov 14th 2012, 23:11
With an Authority in place we will be no different than China, where State Policy dictate one only child per couple a rule that is strictly enforced.
c p agius
Nov 15th 2012, 00:27
Does GOL support Dr. Adrian Vassallo?
R Vassallo
Nov 15th 2012, 08:55
...........and who watches the watchers??????
Eddy Privitera
Nov 15th 2012, 10:58
P. Vincenti: Imagine if YOU were to sit on such an authority !
PAUL SULTANA
Nov 15th 2012, 11:00
The Authority should not screen which patients need IVF and who does not. The Doctor should do this. The authority should be there to make sure that clinic abide by the law.
Joseph Mizzi
Nov 14th 2012, 20:29
Irid jinstab bilanċ bejn li nagħtu ċans tajjeb lill-koppji li jkollhom tarbija, u li nħarsu l-ħajja umana mill-bidu u tat-trabi li jitwieldu. http://josephmizzi.blogspot.com/2012/11/il-ligi-tal-ivf.html
P. Vincenti
Nov 14th 2012, 20:26
It is unfortunate that Muscat seems to want to appeal to the liberal voter when this is a very serious matter that should not be politicized in any way. We cannot agree with the authority being sidelined as he proposes. The authority is the ONLY reason that we feel somewhat reassured that abuses will not take place.
Marija Falzon
Nov 14th 2012, 22:51
The authority you propose is the ONLY reason why this law as being proposed is not good enough. The authority humiliates the parents who need to ask permission to have children. With your argument, every couple should ask for your permission before they go to bed every night.
j brincat
Nov 14th 2012, 20:12
@Joseph Aquilina.
"Declaring himself as a liberal" - so is Muscat in favour of abortion as well"
This is just your OWN conclusion.
Remember that Tonio yesterday said that he was not against abortion as long as it was performed in a country were abortion was legally possible.
AND Tonio is certainly not a liberal!
(jb)
Joseph Aquilina
Nov 15th 2012, 10:24
Clearly you want to hear what you want to hear. Tonio Borg NEVER said he was not against abortion as long as this was done in another country. Tonio Borg said that this was LEGAL and such people cannot be taken to COURT when coming back to Malta. On the other hand we have Joseph declaring himself LIBERAL; and liberals are in FAVOUR OF ABORTION!
Joseph Aquilina
Nov 15th 2012, 10:25
Therefore, is it possible for Joseph Muscat to rather then try to make everyone happy by selling a different version of him to everyone ACTUALLY TELL US THE TRUTH ON WHAT HE CONSIDERS RIGHT OR WRONG!!!
N Zahra
Nov 14th 2012, 20:07
Why do we need this legislation? IVF has been happening for more than 25 years and barely ever registered on anyone's radar - except for the people who needed it. Now with regulation, we've just opened a can of worms with the end result being that the people who need it will end up with half the opportunities they had before. As usual, people with the means will just have to go abroad.
Joseph Aquilina
Nov 14th 2012, 19:55
"The bill should make clear what would be done in such instances and introduce concepts on the adoption of frozen embryos with the family court being the forum that would decide what should be done" - I must add, how will they select which embryos get a chance for life; randomly selected? allow potential parents to select based on some criteria? These are important questions that must be answered.
Joseph Aquilina
Nov 14th 2012, 19:51
"Declaring himself as a liberal" - so is Muscat in favour of abortion as well. Liberals in Malta yesterday made it VERY clear what they want; Divorce (Joseph is in favour), Gay Rights (Joseph is in favour), and ABORTION ... so is Joseph finally telling us all that in reality he is in favour of abortion!? Embryo freezing is abortion masked under a different name unless such embryos are used!!
Joseph Aquilina
Nov 14th 2012, 20:04
* Liberals in the EU not Malta.
Glen Rund
Nov 14th 2012, 21:09
I will not comment on Maltese politics but embryo freezing is definitely NOT abortion. I would strongly suggest to anybody commenting on IVF to seriously research the medical science on initially on normal natural conception, how it really works, odds of success etc. and then IVF with all the different permutations according to the reproductive challenges being faced by the woman, men or both.
Frans Aguis
Nov 14th 2012, 23:50
Embryo freezing is no abortion.It is embryo freezing.If you want to live in the stone ages go live in south america with the creationist and the evangelist Christians. Not everyone is against abortion like you.Personally I would love it if we start to at least talk about abortion and other women's health issue, most importantly what should be covered by the state and what should not.
Mr Joseph Carmel Chetcuti
Nov 15th 2012, 01:01
Glen, I imagine we should start encouraging (some) Maltese (living in Malta) to stop having sex to make sure that no sperms are wasted. What appalling ignorance. All in the name of an imagined god.
Louis Cutajar
Nov 15th 2012, 07:55
Glen Rund informa ruħek, jekk għandek embrijun għandek ħajja u għandek persuna li għandha dinjita u għandha tiġi rispettata. L-iffriżar tal-embrijuni jfisser nuqqas ta' rispett u dinjita. U ħafna drabi dawn l-embrijuni żejda jispiċċaw meqruda jew jingħataw għar-riċerka li fl-aħħar jiġu meqruda wkoll, u din il-qerda tal-embrijuni hija ekwivalenti għall-abort.
Joseph Aquilina
Nov 15th 2012, 09:19
@Glen Rund
Maybe you should first of all go read those books yourself; an embryo (fertilized egg) is the beginning of life! Embryo freezing is suspended life which in many countries is dumped because there is nothing that can be done (i.e - the number of frozen embryos is by far larger then the number of embryos that can be adopted). Throwing away an embryo, or leave it there to die is abortion.
Glen Rund
Nov 15th 2012, 11:41
Gentlemen,
Talk to the Maltese specialists in this field, I'm sure they exist. Normal sex is normal, so I may have been misunderstood. In normal circumstances even when an egg is fertilized and progresses forward it doesn't necessarily implant and proceed to become a baby. Also many embryos have chromosomal abnormalities resulting in self-aborting. This is the way nature works.
Joseph Aquilina
Nov 15th 2012, 12:56
@Glen Rund
We have no problem with the way nature works; we have a problem with having a doctor decides him/herself which embryo gets a chance for life and which not. Many will tell you that the current law (apart minor things regarding embryo freezing) is acceptable. The problem is that clearly lejber do not mind attacking the principle of "life from conception".
Please choose the reason of your report below: