Watch: Is the Church 200 years behind the times?
Mgr Gouder and Mr Scicluna in an informal moment. Photo: Jason Borg
Local Church leaders and critics come together in a Times to Debate conference this morning to debate Cardinal Carlo Martini’s claim that the Church needs to admit its mistakes and undergo radical change.
Is the Church really refusing to move with the times? Should it adapt its teachings to come in line with sections of today’s society? Did the Maltese Church alienate an increasingly liberal society with its tough stand on divorce, the traditional family and IVF?
These and other questions will be answered by guest speakers Pro-vicar Mgr Anton Gouder and Today Public Policy Institute head Martin Scicluna. There will also interventions from former President Eddie Fenech Adami and theologian Fr René Camilleri, among others.
The debate is being hosted by Intercontinental Malta in St Julian’s and chaired by The Times’ head of media Herman Grech.
It forms part of a series of discussions organised by The Times, The Sunday Timesand timesofmalta.com.
Live coverage: Church Debate
The event has now ended, here is a transcript of the live coverage.-
Herman Grech is introducing the debate.
08:42 am -
He is introducing guest speakers Martin Scicluna and Mgr Anton Gouder.
08:43 am -
A three-minute video is now being shown.
08:44 am -
Herman asks Mr Scicluna whether he thinks the Church is 200 years behind the times.
08:48 am -
Mr Scicluna says he feels particularly humble in the presence of Mgr Gouder. He notes that he is not a theologian but a man in the street with absolutely no axe to grind on religious grounds. He cares about the relationship between the Church and the State and the relevance and effectiveness of the Maltese church as a human institution promoting the Catholic Church in Malta.
08:49 am -
Mr Scicluna: What Cardinal Martini said, for me as a layman, has the deepest resonance. It is a sweeping indictment of the last two papacies.
08:51 am
Thirteen years ago Cardinal Martini proposed, the establishment of a new council which would unravel doctrinal and disciplinary knots which the church had got itself into. -
Mr Scicluna: Cardinal Martini supported the use of condoms at least a decade before the Vatican accepted they might be acceptable in certain circumstances to prevent the spread of aids. He questioned the Church position on gays. He passed views on priestly celibacy, the right to die, the possibility of allowing married priests and the possible ordination of women. His last words in his last interview have exposed the rigidity of the Church's feelings in so many fields.
08:53 am -
Mr Scicluna: Cardinal Martini was a leading biblical scholar. His life was dedicated to nudging the Church to refocus on what mattered and to stop it preaching from ivory towers. Essentially to tackle issues with an open mind.
08:55 am -
Mr Scicluna: The basic dogmas of the Church cannot be changed to suit particular views because that is convenient and if anyone knew that it was Cardinal Martini. But when the doctrinal rules were made and how they are interpreted needs to be re-examined.
08:57 am -
Herman asks Mgr Gouder what he thought about Cardinal Martini's thoughts.
08:57 am -
Mgr Gouder refers to the example of a woman happy in a second relationship after her husband left. Cardinal Martini does not say what the Church should do but that the woman cannot be discriminated. He (Cardinal Martini) questions what the Church can do in such instances and sends the Church 2,000 years back because he says the Church needs people who had the energy of St John the Baptist. Cardinal Martini does not say what the Church should do but presents a guideline which is not reflected in what has been said about his statements.
09:00 am -
Mgr Gouder: The Church accepts that it is not perfect. The question is not whether the Church can go into a continuous reform but what, where and when. The Second Vatican Council was a very important step in the past 50 years but there were others before and after it.
09:02 am -
Mgr Gouder: Cardinal Martini spent 23 years Archbishop of the biggest European diocese and did not do anything out of the box. He did a lot of good to attract people to the Church and he was a shepherd. Not all those who say something out of the box are prophets. The Council was built on the prophets who preceded it which were ahead of the times.
09:04 am -
Herman: Is the Church admitting that it made mistakes and is it addressing them?
09:05 am -
Mgr Gouder: Church has admitted its mistakes and asked for an apology. This was also done in Malta.
09:06 am -
Herman asks Mr Scicluna: Should the Church be run as a business?
09:06 am -
Mr Scicluna. No. But the Church is a human institution and such institutions need to look at themselves. This particular human institution has been under huge pressure in the past three to four years - divorce referendum, priest abuse scandal, IVF bill. It can emerge from such pressures by bracing or buckling under pressure.
09:08 am -
Herman: Are you qualified to criticise the Church?
09:09 am -
Mr Scicluna: Cardinal Martini involved the laity. This is our Church. It is a bit extraordinary to me that when the headline news for the past week has been Is the Church 200 years behind the times, it had to be The Times, a secular newspaper, to bring the debate forward. Don't shoot the messenger.
09:10 am -
Mgr Gouder: We don't shoot the messenger but I have the right not to agree. Cardinal Martini says that only those who accept the word of God in their heart can help in the renewal of the Church.
09:11 am -
Herman: In view of the local church's stand on issues such as divorce and IVF, it seems it is becoming more conservative. What kind of Church would you like to see? Could certain statements that have been made put people away?
09:13 am -
Mgr Gouder: Even in the divorce debate, the Church was accused of presenting social statistics and they used to tell us to say what Jesus said. When it did that, it was asked whether Jesus was referring to now or to 2,000 years ago. We have to remember that the Church belongs to Jesus and the biggest hurdle of those who are honest is to discover what kind of Church Jesus wants, interpreting the signs of the times.
09:15 am -
Mgr Gouder: Church is drowning in the social contest. Should it get out of it? It employs 3,000 people, the biggest employer after the government. It is deep into the social and that is where it belongs.
09:16 am -
Mr Scicluna: Cardinal Martini called for a radical transformation beginning from the Church and his bishops. Said that the Church is tired, its buildings are empty. To overcome its fatigue, the Church must admit its mistake. Why don't we rouse ourselves? Are we afraid instead of courageous. Are people still listening to the advice of the Church on sexual matters? These are very specific points that were made by Cardinal Martini.
09:18 am -
Mgr Gouder: Cardinal Martini does not say how, we have to find the how in loyalty with the Church.
09:18 am -
Voxpop is now being shown.
09:19 am -
People present for the conference are being given the opportunity to ask questions.
09:23 am -
A man says that the Church's defence of minority groups, such as immigrants, low income earners, puts it in the present.
09:24 am -
Louis Cilia: Religion is an important force. It was involved socially from before the establishment of a welfare state. Cardinal Martini is a very important figure in present times, he is the progressive mind of the Church who challenged certain important issues which were not being mentioned.
09:28 am
In the local context, we have to see the situation here. The Discern study in 2005 showed a drop in Church attendance. -
Herman points Fr Joe Borg saying that regarding church attendance, instead of facing a problem, it seems we have stopped counting.
09:28 am -
Mgr Gouder: Census used to be held every 10 years, decision was to hold certain studies instead. We have several tools with which to calculate attendance and which shows us different problems. Survey on European values show that 95 per cent of the Maltese believe in God. Only two per cent do not.
09:31 am
80 per cent say they regularly attend Sunday mass. This is not a survey that was held by the Church.
We have the problem of people who feel religious and that they believe in God but there is no bridge which connects them to the Church. -
Herman: Could it be that the Church attendance figure has gone even lower since the last Census was held?
09:32 am -
Mgr Gouder: I am concerned for all people who are not inconformity with the teachings of the Church and we have an enormous duty to attract people to the Church. We are there to provide a service for the people.
09:33 am -
Mgr Charles Vella: I feel that we are on two levels. Cardinal Martini is on a high level and we are still with our feet on the ground. In his 22 years as Archbishop of Milan, Cardinal Martini delegated people to manage the administrative tasks. His task was to spread the teachings of the Church. From when he became Archbishop of Milan, he never stopped teaching the Gospel. He visited 1,200 parishes within the diocese and got to know all the priests. He was a very human person.
09:37 am -
Mgr Vella: Cardinal Martini was a man who had utmost faith in the gospel. Figures for him had a Biblical explanation. What Cardinal Martini said in the interview, he said in his book Conversazione Notturne. What he wanted to do was to put a question to invite everyone to examine his conscience.
09:43 am -
Mgr Vella: Mgr Martini had called for a synod to discuss issues which had not been discussed by the Council including celibacy, sexuality, the role of women, contraception, poverty and bioethical issues.
09:44 am -
Fr Rene Camilleri: I am a Catholic priest and I am loyal to the Church. This, however, does not mean that I accept things as they are. There are things that worry me. Cardinal Martini made a hit with this interview. In his 22 years as Archbishop he was emarginated by the Church in Italy and was not known internationally. He did not act against the Church but he behaved in a different way. He was focused and because of this, it was obvious that he would have this attitude.
09:50 am -
Fr Camilleri: The problem which I feel we are discussing today in view of Cardinal Martini's interview is the imposition of the Church. What Church imposition are we going to have? The people's perception of the Church is worrying.
09:51 am -
Herman points to Fr Camilleri that he was one of those who did not read the bishops' pastoral letter on IVF.
09:54 am
Fr Camilleri says he reads many pastoral letters he does not wish to but in this case he felt he could not as his conscience would not let him. -
Fr Camilleri: Cardinal Martini in his interview speaks on issues which are on the Church agenda and will remain so. I do not think there will come a time when the Church will accept divorce. The problem remains one of imposition because in spite of its doctrinal position, the Church has to remain concerned about saving the people. At the end of the day, the Church exists for the people and I would be worried to form part of a Church which renders itself as a non-authentic Church. Church has been changing continuously. Why is there such a resistance now?
09:56 am -
Former President Eddie Fenech Adami: The times we are living in are the result of everyone being able to judge. This is the biggest problem nowadays on a number of levels. There are a number of issues in which the truth has to be accepted. The danger is that everyone wants to judge and throw away that which is ours. We have to be more realistic and down to earth but it is very important not to abandon principles, that which is fundamental. This is the real problem of our times.
09:59 am -
Dr Fenech Adami: We are living in interesting times and we are becoming more responsible and reliable, thinking with our minds without abandoning that which is fundamental and which gives us our character.
10:01 am -
Dr Fenech Adami: I continue to believe in the people and that the people have in their DNA the principles that ensure they will continue to be a success.
10:02 am -
Herman: What kind of consultation is there in the Maltese Church?
10:02 am -
Mgr Gouder: The Church has several consultation structures which do not all always function as they should. The Archbishop has the presbyterial and diocesan councils. In administration, the Archbishop has another two councils which only exist in Malta - the representative diocesan council and the financial diocesan council. There is also the college of parish priests and pastoral parish councils, which do not always function well and others.
10:05 am -
Herman: Members of the Presbyterian council learnt of the Church's official position on divorce and IVF from a press release - Is this true?
10:07 am
Mgr Gouder: The divorce issue was discussed several times, IVF was not discussed but the issue has been on the diocese agenda since 1995. That was when the bishops made their first statement. -
Fr Colin Apap: It is true that the Church has dialogue structures but they are not working. Dialogue does not exist.
10:07 am -
Fr Apap: Thanked The Times, always had the idea that the newspaper was pro-establishment, that it wanted to keep the status quo. But it was managing to be a catalyst of change. I would have liked this discussion to take place within the Church.
10:08 am -
Fr Apap: As a priest, I do not see the Church preferring the poor. I see a certain mentality especially among young priests who are fixated on dress and honours. Why has this debate not taken place within the Church without labelling anyone, since labelling excludes real dialogue? Labelling creates fear which is creating a fortress mentality. Mr Scicluna has a right to give the Church his ideas, which are the same preoccupations of many in the Church.
10:11 am
At the time of the council, the love for the Church consisted of the space given to diverse thoughts. Where is that space now? -
Mr Scicluna: The Church has to learn to express itself effectively in a much more pluralistic world. It has got to be able to speak to young people and educate them.
10:12 am -
Mr Scicluna: The IVF pastoral letter was an example of how not to do it. It ended up offending members of the priesthood as well as the public.
10:13 am -
Herman: Do you agree with the statement that the Church is not human enough?
10:14 am
Mgr Gouder: The Church is never human enough, as it is never divine enough. We are moving with a lot of difficulty, our structures are not perfect but I am not as negative as the picture that has been given. There are many aspects of humanity in the Church but it is not human enough. -
Mgr Gouder: IVF pastoral letter has many paragraphs of humanity, it has the positive aspects of the teachings of the church. It had to come to a moral judgement on IVF. If this hurt people, I have no right to tell them they should not have been hurt, but this was not the intention.
10:16 am -
Kenneth Zammit Tabona: The communication problem is a very salient one. The IVF letter was about five pages long but the fundamental message was that IVF is a no no. On divorce, we had the same problem. Only last week, the Pope spoke to the French bishops and immediately was misinterpreted as having said that gay marriage is not to be discussed because it corrupts heterosexual marriages.
10:19 am
He (Mr Zammit Tabona) checked the Vatican website to see what the Pope said and, at face value, he did not say anything of the sort. -
Mr Zammit Tabona: Church cannot afford to wait 500 years to get things right. It has to come to terms that today, the Western world knows everything. I am a convinced Christian and a reluctant Catholic at times but I believe the Church has to survive and to do this it has to take very immediate action.
10:21 am -
Prof. Joe Friggieri: There is a reason why many Maltese still go to Church. But one still has to ask what is keeping some of them away?
10:24 am
Church in Malta still have a captive audience so communication skills are very important and priests should learn such skills. Those who go to Church get out of it somewhat passive. This is because their involvement in the Church is not as it should be.
The music used does not inspire. Words are not inspiring. This is not how liturgical renewal should take place. -
Prof. Friggieri: The church in Malta has a major challenge on a philosophical level. It is to transmit the message of the faith in a more convinced manner.
10:27 am -
Mgr Gouder: As a Church, our commitment should be that our Christians would not just have knowledge and information but also spiritual formation.
10:29 am -
Man from the floor: I would like to know who are the old and where are the new?
10:32 am -
Claire Vassallo: Pointed out that no women had spoken out. The church is just male voices with women taking a passive role. But women can do more.
10:33 am -
Ms Vassallo: The messages that the Church is giving are outdated and do not reflect certain technological possibilities that exist and the message is generally negative. We need more open debate where people can actually speak and are not just spoken to. We have to think of the person and not the doctrine.
10:34 am -
Woman who has been teaching Catechism for the past five years: She teaches children and explains to them that they have to go to Church on Sunday and for Communion and confession. But families do no longer go to Mass and Confession and children are going without their parents.
10:38 am -
Mr Scicluna: I know that the Church's intentions are good. There is a huge gap between wanting to do good and doing good. During the divorce debate the Church was committing all the errors it had been taught not to commit. Have to reenergise the leadership, get the organisation right and start communicating in a more effective way. This is what the Church has to be looking at.
10:41 am -
Mgr Gouder: I am convinced that man is the centre of the church. Man turns to the Church not for technological solutions because these are not the competence of the Church but for moral guidance including on the technological advancements. One can like or not like the guidance given and the people who have the responsibility to pass on this guidance, care about the feelings of the people.
10:44 am -
Mgr Gouder: As a church, we are open to dialogue. There is a need for conversion but this does not come overnight because we have to be sure we are doing what the Lord wants of us.
10:45 am -
Herman wraps up and thanks the crowd.
10:45 am
Photo: Jason Borg
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41 Comments
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Francis Attard
Oct 3rd 2012, 16:22
@ Mgr Charles Vella
What our Parish Priest didn't do was, a statement, like the one you did, that was used by those who were campaigning in favour of divorce before the referendum to substantiate their arguments.
Francis Attard
Oct 2nd 2012, 21:11
@Mons Charles Vella
Our Parish Priest , like Cardinal Martini also delegates people to manage administrative tasks. His is the task to spread the teachings of the Church. He also never stops to teach the Gospel. He is also a very human person and has utmost faith in the Gospel. He even sometimes urges us to examine our conscience. And, by the way, all the other priests in our community do the same.
George Camilleri
Oct 2nd 2012, 20:56
It seems that a good part of the debate was taken up by the issue of whether the Church was communicating in the right way with its members and society in general. There seems to be the tacit assumption that Holy Mass is one of the 'tools' that should be used for this purpose.
I stand to be corrected, but in my humble opinion, the main purpose of Holy Mass is there as an opportunity for believers to commune with the Lord by celebrating the Eucharist. I think that communication in terms of teaching about, explanations and clarifications of church doctrine should be done through other means, such as the mass media, parish meetings, seminars, etc rather than during Mass.
Catholics should be ready to take an active role in such communication. But let's leave the Eucharist as the focus of Holy Mass.
Lina Pecorella
Oct 2nd 2012, 15:59
First of all, the change should start from schools. How can the same institution teach about evolution billions years ago and at the same time teach 15 years old that the universe was created in 7 days, which seem to have happened 6000 years ago according to the bible? Does the church still believe children don’t THINK? They are not even allowed to discuss it during the lesson.
Victor Vella
Oct 2nd 2012, 14:58
If the church is 200 years behind the times, it stops existing. Every institution is built to suit it members. If society changes its customs it means that morality is changing. Nothing in the world is static. The church has to find solutions not to what it believes, but what people believe. Otherwise society changes and the church remain centuries backwards. What was morally wrong yesterday, it does not mean that it will remain so until the final judgement.
Tony Ellul
Oct 2nd 2012, 14:48
I have read the above dialogue with great interest but immediately identified a problem that does not seem to go away. The people who spoke during the dialogue did so with a tone that everyone can understand. Mgr. Gouder, who is a very knowledeable and capable priest spoke with in a way that only a section of the people can understand. He does not come down to the level of the man and women in the street. He tends to be too much on the defensive. He sounds worried that he might say something that he later regrets. As for the dialogue itself, congratulation to the Times who had the courage to initiate this discussion. Lets hope there will be others with an even wider audience.
russell fenech
Oct 2nd 2012, 14:44
chrurch and religion have become inadequate.. a sthe Dalai lama puts it.
They re non inclusive..
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/13/dalai-lama-facebook-religion-is-no-longer-adequate-science_n_1880805.html?utm_hp_ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false
Philip Micallef
Oct 2nd 2012, 14:31
Mgr Gouder: As a church, we are open to dialogue. There is a need for conversion but this does not come overnight because we have to be sure we are doing what the Lord wants of us.
10:45 am
How can one see the light of the day with blinkers on all the time.
vincent a galea
Oct 2nd 2012, 14:02
Unless the church really has faith itself and truly believes in the teachings of Christ, the church will not even commence to comprehend where it stands in time!!
The human element in the Body of Christ is too strong to give the spiritual side a its proper meaning and what it stands for!!
Most clerics are simply on an ego trip !!
What chance has the real Church got ??
Charles Borg
Oct 2nd 2012, 13:46
Hafna nies li joqoghdu Birzebbuga mhux qed imorru u lanqas se jmorru l-knisja sakemm jinbidlu l-affarijiet f'din il-parrocca. La qassisin zghazagh, Kleru miskin anzjan li ta hajtu kollha u issa mhuwiex fqaghda li jista jaghti servizz bhalma kien qabel. Hemm hafna nuqqasijiet. Imbaghad l-aghar haga li hemm hija r-relazzjoni zoppa bejn il-parruccani u min imexxi. Ma tistax tagheml certu affarijiet f'socjeta civilizzata. Ghalhekk fis-skiet il-poplu qed ibati u fis-skiet il-poplu qieghed jaghmel l-ghazliet tieghu. Fid-dmir li tharsu lil din il-parrocca u ggibuha 'l quddiem. U C-centri tal-Qajjenza u Tal-Papa? Dawn x'sar minnhom? Insejtuhom? Ilhom imwieghdin ghexieren ta' snin u qatt ma sar xejn. U lanqas li kieku jsiru. Nixtieq inkun naf min jista' jmexxihom diment li m'hemm l-ebda sacerdot zghazugh li kapaci jigbidlek iz-zghazagh. Iz-zghazagh post wiehed qed imorru x-xatt, dimen li m'hemmx bizzejjed strutturi adekwati li jistghu jigbduhom. Iz-zghazagh hawn isfel qed jintilfu. Hemm bzonn li jsir xi haga.
Mr Emanuel Farrugia
Oct 2nd 2012, 13:41
The impact of the catholic church on today's society
From its beginnings, Christianity has regarded itself as a true world religion that appeals to all people without distinction of race, nation, or culture. Roman Catholics believe that their church has preserved this missionary thrust more faithfully than any of the non-Roman churches.
St Paul tells us that ‘there are many different gifts, but it is always the same Spirit,’ and that ‘the particular manifestation of the Spirit granted to each one is to be used for the general good’ (1 Cor 12:4-7). We are one people, the People of God, with a great diversity of gifts. It is surely time for us to make use of all the gifts the Spirit gives the Church in the service of the whole human family. With Jesus, the New Moses, as our Leader, we can find a way.
Jesus said: Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest (Matthew 11:28). The Christian church merely recognizes the Word of God (John 10:27). The authenticity of the New Testament documents rests in the inspiration of God through the apostles. It does not rest in the declaration of the Catholic Church. This is very important. The Christian Church recognizes what God has ordained through his sovereign inspiration to be the word of God. When the Catholic Church claims that it is the source of the sacred Scriptures, it is, in effect, placing itself above the word of God. It needs to repent.
Emanuel Farrugia [TARXIEN] former student Faculty of Theology UOM
Henry S Pace
Oct 2nd 2012, 13:14
Very surprising. The most critical comments came from priests.
Mgr r Gouder was on a very high note. He was clear and outstanding in his arguements
.
The late cardinal Martini put a lot oquestions to the Church. However, following his long interview before
his death he ended up the interview asking just a simple question to his interviewer and I quote:
NOW I HAVE A QUESTION FOR YOU (to the interviewer) - WHAT CAN YOU DO FOR THE CHURCH?
Unfortunately the question remained unanswered.
O Kassar
Oct 2nd 2012, 12:39
I would divide the Church Philosophy into two separate schools of thought, the theological and the moral. The fact that the Church is always trying to tie both schools together is leading it to become out of touch with the people. In my opinion, it is a mistake to base morality only on theology because they do not always go together. Today people are not influenced by paradise or hell any more. And no one has monopoly on any theological Truth as such Truth is not absolute, given the way that such theology resembles certain aspects of pagan mythology.
If the Church of today wants to contribute more to society and attract more people, then it should separate its moral teachings from its theological myths and start basing them entirely on the primary values of love, full respect, tolerance and well-being for all human Nature inclusive of mankind, living organisms and the Environment. It is within those parameters that the Church could ever welcome within its ranks women priests, gay couples, IVF births, contraceptives and termination of marriage contracts.
william cauchi
Oct 2nd 2012, 12:20
They said a lot and they said NOTHING.
Result a big fat zero, which didn't move things one way or the other an inch.
Lots of useless tra la la which we have heard before a zillion times and will hear again, keep in touch, for those that bother. Many will just turn the page and won't give it a second glance.
Kevin Mifsud
Oct 2nd 2012, 12:08
I attended the conference......Gouder backed the church,and denied,that the cardinal was right...even tough he did it say it ,in words.Total disgrace....the more i hear people like these,the more i run away.....PS..most of the audience were PURE POSH,,,,NOT JESUS LIKE....THE CONTRARY...
Victor Rodenas
Oct 2nd 2012, 12:02
How naive,...95 % of the Maltese believe in God,.......100% of the devils believe in God,....but they are still devils.
J. Abela
Oct 2nd 2012, 12:00
200 years? I would say at least a 1000 years.
V. Cauchi
Oct 2nd 2012, 13:08
That's good! The nearer we go to the roots, the better.
Joseph Grech Attard
Oct 2nd 2012, 11:39
It would do everybody a lot of good if everyone, the hierarchy included, accepts the signs of the times and acts accordingly. Our God is a living God and He has manifested Himself and still manifests Himself in many different ways to many different people. The Catholic Church, especially in Europe, Malta included, still think of the laity as those who have to pray, pay and obey! The laity do not want this kind of imposition. It is un-Christian!
Frank Muscat
Oct 2nd 2012, 11:37
Three dysfunctional practices distinguish the tenor of the Catholic Church today: secrecy and its legacies, suppression of dissenting voices, and centralisation of an assertive magisterial authority. From my reading of the transcript above, none of these issues seem to have been addressed.
A culture of secrecy is endemic in the Catholic Church. See No Evil, Hear No Evil, Speak No Evil says it all.
A Church that cannot openly discuss issues is a Church retreating into an intellectual ghetto. Silencing the questioning conscience is a recipe for disaster.
Having seen fascism in action in his native mother-land, Benedict XVI seems to believe that the best antidote to political totalitarianism is ecclesial totalitarianism. In essence, he believes the Catholic Church serves the
cause of human freedom by restricting freedom in its internal life.
A Church of bound spirits and bound hearts runs the danger of ossification and institutional sclerosis.
Pawlu Spiteri
Oct 2nd 2012, 11:35
Il-knisja ghadha lura minhabba l-politika interna li thaddan. hemm hafna klikek u naf x'qed nghid. Biss biss hafna decizjonijiet li jittiehdu anke fl-annullamenti qed ikunu imtebbghin minn din il-politika. In-nies hajja wahda ghandhom ippermettulhom jghixu.
Etienne Camilleri
Oct 2nd 2012, 11:17
Il-Vigarju f'kollox sar jifem mid-derha!
Francis Attard
Oct 2nd 2012, 11:00
L-ironija hi illi certu membri tal-kleru flok li jheggu sabiex id-dinja li qed nghixu fiha, mimlija hazen illi qatt ma kien hawn bhalu, tinbidel, qieghdin jghidu illi t-taghlim ta' Kristu ghandu jinbidel.
Luke Lanzon
Oct 2nd 2012, 11:14
The world was a much worse and darker place before, contrary to what you say the world hasn't seen better times since recorded history!!
Francis Attard
Oct 2nd 2012, 12:31
In the USA alone about 1.2 million human beings are murdered through abortion each year.
Luke Lanzon
Oct 2nd 2012, 13:13
well it all depends on when the abortion took place, if its before the 6-7 week mark I wouldn't call it murder seeing that the fetus has no brain activity and no heart, i.e. feels no pain and is not human yet.
Lawrence Andrews
Oct 2nd 2012, 10:58
The church: keeps a woman waiting for an annulment 5 years and still no progress for a case of total deceit before and after marriage all proved and still they do not grant her the annulment and let her live in limbo. SHAME; i lost my faith in the church long ago. bunch of hypocrites preaching forgiveness and keeping people in suffering. Thank god divorce was introduced and left them all behind. Christ would be ashamed of some if the stances the church has taken over the years. Of course they do loads of good.....but they turn a blind eye to the suffering around them and leave people out in the cold too. They need to speed up annulments that are crystal clear!!!!!! they need to allow their priests to get married and FAST! they need to be poorer and closer INDEED to the ones around them that are in a pickle and not procrastinate in aeternum! Wake up you fathers at the Curia.......many of your fellow priests have already beat you to it years ago.
Francis Attard
Oct 2nd 2012, 10:27
Il-knisja 200 sena ilu kienet tikkonvinci, llum m'ghadiex. Il-fatt illi d-divorzju dahal f'kull pajjiz td-dinja u li l'abort diga hu legali f'diversi pajjizi juri bic-car dan.
Joseph Aquilina
Oct 2nd 2012, 10:21
"He checked on the Vatican website what he said and, at face value, he did not say anything of the source."
- that is easy to answer, the media has one aim - to sell!! and guess what sells most - scandals; therefore if there aren't any, be assured that the media will generate its own scandals in order to continue working!
joseph scicluna
Oct 2nd 2012, 10:16
Hans Kung has in the past spoke and critisized the church on the lines that Cardinal Martini has been saying in the past
C Muscat
Oct 2nd 2012, 09:57
Nixtieq nistaqsi lil Fr Rene jekk id-duttrina hix tal- Knisja (kif qal hu) jew hix ta Kristu?
Mark Manfre'
Oct 2nd 2012, 09:53
Why should the Church accept what is wrong in order to please society? It is society that needs to change. If change in a religion can be said to contribute to its acceptance and therefore its growth then other religions which never changed an iota of their doctrine since their inception would not be flourishing the way they are. One has to look much deeper into what really is the cause of the problem. For those who believe in the bible Christ Himself said to the Church "whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven", no mention was ever made to include the whims of society. One of the strengths of the Catholic religion I believe, is that it is institutionalized and thus leaves no room for haphazard interpretation.
joseph scicluna
Oct 2nd 2012, 09:30
Hans Kung has in the past spoke and critisized the church on the lines that Cardinal Martini has been saying the last years
mark johnson
Oct 2nd 2012, 09:00
The church is based on a book that was written 2000 years ago.
How can it not be behind the times?
Kevin Camilleri
Oct 2nd 2012, 09:35
Well Mr. Johnson, first and foremost do you know what's in that book as you called it?
Jesus preached only about Love... something that it is still relevant nowadays, and if people did love each other as Jesus preached we would not have all the trouble that we have in today's world.
of course that the Bible is still relevant!
mark johnson
Oct 2nd 2012, 09:52
Did I say there is anything wrong with being behind the times?
mark johnson
Oct 2nd 2012, 11:16
For example, I like the church's attitude to women. But I would go further. Not only stopping them from rising within the ranks of the church (imagine a female pope - how ridiculous), but also I would deprive women of the vote, ban them from working, ban them driving, and ban them from owning any kind of property.
I want the church to be behind the times, and I want the rest of society to go with it.
Victor Pulis
Oct 2nd 2012, 12:06
Kevin Camilleri Jesus may have preached love but you skipped the whole old testament! Read how god (according to whoever wrotethe book) used to order genocide sometimes commiting it himself on innocent children women and even animals in the fields.Whole nations were wiped out by the Hebrews according to god's commands.The old testament is full of deceit, corruption, murder and lust.
Jo Azzopardi
Oct 2nd 2012, 12:06
@ MR Johnson
Man started walking ...illions of years ago and he still does.
Darby Allen
Oct 2nd 2012, 14:45
" I would deprive women of the vote, ban them from working, ban them driving, and ban them from owning any kind of property." Too late Mark; the practitioners of another major religion have beaten you to it!
Please choose the reason of your report below: