THE SHEER ARROGANCE
So it came to pass that their Graces the Bishops, or perhaps the plural is exaggerated, pronounced themselves on the matter of IVF, not coincidentally just after the Government has started the process of legislating on the matter.
I'm not about to go into any "angels on pinheads" arguments or try to point out, respectfully, that perhaps the matter of the intention of the parties does make something of a difference when it comes to differentiating between abortion and IVF, at least insofar as concerns moral grounds. And before the Right to Lifers start hollering, I'm on record as being against abortion, though I would not arrogate to myself the right to judge any one else.
Nor am I about to mention my disgust at the way Their Graces described embryo freezing as the creation of orphanages and used other such emotive ideas, used to rouse the rabble and start some sort of Holy Crusade against IVF. I have visions of the massed ranks of Muzewisti and assorted nuns marching up and down waving fiery crosses, but that might just be something I ate.
Just as an aside, it's going to be interesting to see Labour squirm their way out of this one: on the one hand they will want to appease the religious fundamentalists lest they lose a vote or two, while on the other they will want to pretend to be all progressive and trendy and try to shoot down the Government's ideas as not going far enough. Quite a dilemma to be horned on, that. No doubt they'll have a social impact assessment and tell us what they will do after the election, which would be par for the course.
But to get back to the main thrust of my argument, my disgust at Their Graces' way of putting across their argument, this is caused in the main by the way they called on the multitude of parents who have resorted to IVF to reconcile themselves with God, as if they were sinners cast out in the darkness and need to have a beacon to light their way back. These are people who have gone through so much, with such tension and pain in their lives, to bring babies into the world and to love them and nurture them and these men, these inhabitants of a moral plane that so clearly they see to be loftily superior to where the rest of us live, blithely tell them they should atone for their sins.
If that isn't arrogance, what is it?
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Eddy Privitera
Aug 3rd 2012, 08:52
I guess ABC dreams about Dr. Joseph Muscat each and every night. And gets all sweaty despite having air-conditioning on ! You see, Joseph Muscat might upset ABC's applecart in few months time !
Manuel Mangani
Aug 2nd 2012, 13:53
I am a Catholic and I do expect our Bishops to pronounce themselves on what is morally right and wrong from a Catholic point of view. If I have gone astray, I would wish them to point that out to me and would appreciate a call to repentance.
M Ellul
Aug 4th 2012, 23:30
Yes, the church loves to point out what is objectively right and wrong (and by objective I mean until it apologizes in a few hundred years, of course.)
Maria Borg
Aug 1st 2012, 09:59
Hear! Hear!
ABC pretend to know more than the bishops themselves what does or doesn't constitue a sin. Talking about arrogance.
David Seychell
Aug 1st 2012, 20:04
ABC didn't go out of his area of expertise here. Infact he is eloquent in the language of spirituality as much as I am in Chinese.
Mr Joseph Carmel Chetcuti
Aug 2nd 2012, 12:39
Maria, why should a layman or laywoman not know more about sin than a bishop, I ask? Do you still think members of the laity are stupid? Do not ordinary men and women read the same books that bishops read? After all, most members of the laity have a much wider experience of real life than the bishops ... and archbishops, and cardinals, and popes!
Mary Mills
Jul 31st 2012, 18:59
Franco Farrugia
Dead scatty of me mixing you up with that (or some other ?) Franco! Won't do it again!
Apologies!
Must be all this drizzle in Wales (and needing new glasses) that
Franco Farrugia
Jul 31st 2012, 19:48
Please, take time off and READ that blessed Pastoral Letter, since you are so hell-bent on spending (wasting) your time on a tiny rock's matters!
Mary Mills
Jul 31st 2012, 11:36
Franco Debono
Those who go through the procedure of IVF (may be futile and 'they' know that) feel vulnerable; they are vulnerable; and yes, Their Graces ought to be mindful what to say to the vulnerable. Isn't that right?
So why score points re RC theology fuq id-dnub u mhux dnub?
Franco Farrugia
Jul 31st 2012, 12:34
The Bishops, of course, can speak for themselves and far be it for me to speak on their behalf!!! Point made, I hope, and from the outset.
It's not a question of 'scoring point'. As I wrote before - and this, from a layman's point of view, and on both counts, medical AND religious! - up till now, there was no regulation on IVF methods and therefore that implies that certain parts of methods used were against Church teachings because they were considered to be 'abortive'.
Abortion is absolutely condemned by the Church.
Therefore, it is in this spirit and in this spirit only, that the Bishops may be telling parents who may have passed through this experience to seek reconciliation.
Is there any harm in that?
You still have not answere my question honestly enough: have you read the Bishops' Pastoral Letter or are you shooting from the hip? Answer to yourself, not to me. If the answer is NO, you are doing a great disservice to yourself and to others by writing nonsense.
By the way, kindly be careful how to address me. I am FARRUGIA, not DEBONO, and thank goodness that the respective lives and principles of the surnames are very, very far away from each other!
Franco Farrugia
Jul 31st 2012, 08:56
Quote: 'So it came to pass that their Graces the Bishops, or perhaps the plural is exaggerated, '
The above is the only point where I would tend to agree with Dr ABC. 'The plural is exaggerated' indeed since the parts of that Letter which may be exaggerated in their turn to appear 'arrogant' smell of Gozo.
Mary Mills
Jul 30th 2012, 21:52
"...seek the road to self-reconciliation.."
Do what?
Hasn't it been enough penance for 'them' going through, perhaps a number of IVF cycles before a child is born?
Aren't the bishops being 'in your face' about 'sin'??
Franco Farrugia
Jul 31st 2012, 00:23
We are ALL called to a continued process of 'self-reconciliation'. That's Roman Catholic jargon. Nothing out of the ordinary.
Franco Farrugia
Jul 30th 2012, 21:00
And another thing: why bring third parties into the equation, even if metaphorically, perhaps? What do members of the Museum and nuns have to do with this? Have you no respect for these people? Why do you have to shower them with your usual ridicule? It is clear that you have no respect for them, similar to some blogger who shall remain unnamed.
You wish you had it in you to be a fraction as generous as many of the 'Muzewisti and assorted nuns'!
Andrew Borg-Cardona
Jul 30th 2012, 19:01
Did anyone (does anyone) even read what I wrote? Anyone who has seen the public domain items about the current situation will have noticed my hint, the one that makes it clear who I think is calling the shots. Insofar as concerns the Church's message, I have no issue with that, it is up to the Church to decide what it wants to say, but I have plenty of issues with the method of saying it that was used, not least of which is the classifying of people who resort to IVF as sinners - if that is not arrogance, then what is? Insofar as concerns Labour, if anyone thinks they're not going to try to squirm out of this one, then they just didn't get what Joseph Muscat said very recently. Not that I blame them, it's what he always says.
Franco Farrugia
Jul 30th 2012, 20:34
1. Some IVF methods include the freezing of embryos (contrary to Church teachings) as well as the disposal of some embryos.
2. The Church believes that embryos are human beings.
3. The Church is totally against abortion.
4. Embryos thrown away, or disposed of, are tantamount to abortion.
5. The Bishops reasonably claim that in the past and until the IVF legislation becomes operative, in Malta and Gozo, IVF was being practised and therefore without certain controls, including what I mentioned in (1).
6. In this spirit, the Bishops said and I quote:
'The Church holds close to her heart all those children who are born as a result of IVF methods and confirms that they are still children of God, even if the methods through which they were concieved go against Church teachings and against human dignity. The Church urges the parents of these children to trust in God’s mercy and to seek the road to self-reconciliation, in line with their call and mission as parents.'
I repeat: 'AND TO SEEK THE ROAD TO SELF-RECONCILIATION.'
For these 7 words, you BRAND the Bishops as 'sheer arrogant'!
I read and re-read the Pastoral letter (http://maltadiocese.org/lang/en/news/pastoral-letter-celebrating-human-lifepastoral-letter-celebrating-human-life/) and I simply couldn't detect a single sentence where I could find an streak of arrogance. And I am not quite a bishops' fan myself!
I suggest that Dr ABC reads the entirety of the Pastoral letter before shooting from the hip and creating more harm than that that is going on right now.
(I am not writing this in order to defend the Bishops but to defend the freedom of speech that everyone has a right to, including the Church in Malta, that freedom of speech which certain lawyers I will not mention by name, believe in so much! But it appears that they only want freedom of speech - speech that suits their political and other ends. So what's new!)
Mary Mills
Jul 30th 2012, 20:54
"Sinners" is rough, insensitive and hurtful - unnecessarily harsh labelling that anyone going through IVF procedure could well do without.
No need to max out on language!
Franco Farrugia
Jul 31st 2012, 00:20
@ Ms Mills: Within Roman Catholic lexicon, 'sinner' is neither 'rough' nor 'insensitive' and neither is it 'harsh'. It was never intended to 'label' anyone.The term is used commonly within the religiouis context because at the end of the day, we are ALL sinners, one way or another.
Through your own words, you show that you have not heard or read the Pastoral Letter - so with what right do you come out in public and pontificate about the matter? Because it is quite clear that you have not bothered to do so - otherwise, you would have realised that the term 'sinner' was not used even once throughout the Letter! So much for checking one's facts before writing in the public medium!
Mr Joseph Carmel Chetcuti
Jul 31st 2012, 11:23
Funny isn't it. You defend the freedom of speech of bishops but not of ordinary citizens!
Edmond Micallef
Jul 30th 2012, 18:39
Relax man. The IVF Bill is not for you to decide upon. It will be enacted in accordance with JPO's parameters and requirements.
The man you have been hounding for so long is now the kingpin of parliament. How is that for a sudden turn of faith, eh?
Franco Farrugia
Jul 30th 2012, 14:58
Seems to me that, as beauty is in the eye of the beholde, so is arrogance.
To claim that Archbishop Cremona is 'arrogant', is reaching the heights! Or the pits.
Joseph Calleja
Jul 30th 2012, 18:04
I do not go that far as to proclaim Dr ABC an atheist for his sheer outburst at their Graces, but I must admit that this time I am four square with Dr ABC. The only thing he slipped on when mentioning the PL. It seems that ABC is not aware that Dr Muscat has already pronounced his intentions that on being elected to Parliament, a Labour government would make it a priority to enact the IVF law, and that was a long time ago even before the prime minister pronounced his position on the matter. Perhaps a lapsus?
Franco Farrugia
Jul 30th 2012, 20:16
I never said that Dr ABC was an 'atheist' in the dozen words that I wrote. I am trying to re-read what I wrote, in order to understand how you came to that conclusion. Hmmm.... sorry: can't.
Joseph Calleja
Jul 31st 2012, 11:11
It was never my intention to imply that you said that Dr ABC is an atheist far from it, at least he does not look like one. But in reaching the heights or pits you must concede that least he is anathema or what you will.
Reuben Zammit
Jul 30th 2012, 12:48
Very good criticism and analysis of PL. But why are you not lambasting PN as well for being the usual puppets on the Church's strings?
Franco Farrugia
Jul 30th 2012, 18:15
Listen, Mr Zammit, the Government is NOT 'being the usual puppet on the Church's strings'. The Church is merely performing its right and duty and giving its position regarding IVF. If the government were to be the Church's 'puppet', there would be no IVF legislation.
Now, do you get that? Or is it a bit complicated for you to understand?
Why is it that whenever and whatever the Church says has to be criticised ad infinitum, as if we are denying the Church the right, any more, to say anything? Is that what the future has in store for us? That everyone has a right to give his or her opinion except the Church?
Now, (not that I need to explain myself) I am not one to agree with the Church on many things but that the Church has the freedom of expression - of course!
John Mayger
Jul 30th 2012, 11:39
God's first 3 commands to mankind were 1)Be fruitful!, 2) Multiply! & 3) Fill the earth! Genesis 1:28
The bishops say 1) I am celebrate! 2) No IVF! & 3) I have no kids but call me Father!
Bishops are not out of touch with people they are out of touch with God.
Mr Joseph Carmel Chetcuti
Jul 30th 2012, 13:53
Spot on! They are a la carte Christians ... like every other Christian.
Franco Farrugia
Jul 30th 2012, 18:16
@ Chetcuti: 'Waqa' l-ghazz!' You never pull back from trying to bash the Church, do you?
Jonathan Camilleri
Jul 30th 2012, 10:55
I don't know..
Please choose the reason of your report below: