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IVF infringes on human dignity - bishops

Any medical methods used to cure infertility should be based upon profound respect for the values of life and the physical integrity of every person; conjugal unity; and human sexuality in marriage, the bishops said.

In a pastoral letter on IVF "Celebrating Human Life", Archbishop Paul Cremona and Gozo bishop Mario Grech stated that:

"Every technical method which replaces the personal conjugal act fails to respect the dignity of the human person and of the unity of marriage and so this is not acceptable.

"On the other hand, such technical methods are acceptable when they aid the personal conjugal act to achieve its aim, that is to conceive human life."

The bishops said in their letter it was positive that there has been in Malta an ongoing debate on how couples can address the difficulty of infertilty.

The Church, the bishops said, favoured life more than any other institution in the world and always insisted that science is to be at the authentic service of humanity.

The IVF method, they said, called for the creation of several embryos  for the desired child to be born.

"Even though a number of these embryos are not killed deliberately, but die a natural death shortly after they are conceived, the fact remains that several embryos are being sacrificed and instrumentalised so that a child may be born.

"Both this procedure, as well as the method in which human embryos are being selected in order that a child may be born, confirms that the process, in itself, infringes upon human dignity.

"Everything points to the fact that in vitro fertilisation methods, which at first glance seem to be at the service of life, are in fact, actually a threat to human life."

They said that at times the scientific process involved the freezing of superfluous embryos and the Church made it clear that it did not consider the freezing of embryos to be an acceptable solution.

"The IVF process involves methods which at times considers the person, who is still at the embryonic stage, to be merely a mass of cells which may be used, selected and dispensed with. Many times, a significant number of human embryos are sacrificed for the sake of the birth of the desired child....

"Therefore the above-mentioned practices cannot be morally justified in any way and under no circumstances."

The bishops noted that IVF was widely practiced in Malta with reports that 750 women got pregnant through this method in the past 22 years. They said it was well known that the practice was not regulated by law which should aim to safeguard the values of life and physical integrity of every person, the unity of marriage and human sexuality in marriage.

"A law which does not safe-guard these values is morally wrong. There are different levels of ethical gravity emanating out of a law that does not respect these values. For this reason, men of goodwill who are responsible to draw up legislation are duty-bound in conscience to try and achieve the best possible benefits, or as far as possible, to mitigate dangers."

The bishops said the Church appealed to all people and reminded them of their obligation to form their conscience properly.

"An authentic Christian conscience is formed in the light of the principles of natural law mentioned above and in conformity with the teachings of the Church. Catholics with a morally and correctly formed conscience are called upon to give witness to the Truth of Love, and this love is confirmed by the same truth."

The bishops' letter can be read, in Maltese or English, in the pdf links below.

Attached files

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Eddy Privitera

Jul 27th 2012, 20:32

Angelo, i have the right to crticize the Bishops on matters with which I do not agree, just as much as the Bishops have the right to criticize what they or the Church does not agree with. But MPs are in parliament to act for the benefit of all citizens, irrespective of their faith. Still, nobody, not even MPs, let alone I, have the power or the right, to "muzzle" the Bishops.

Eddy Privitera

Jul 27th 2012, 20:40

Angelo Vassallo: Today we have had another experience of the kind of "democracy" your GonziPN - and hence you too - believe in. Have you followed the story of how GonziPN got rid of the MEPA environment commissioner, Mr- Joe Falzon ??

Anyone who does his/her work seriously and is not ready to hide instead of reveal scandals committed by this government's appointees, such as the MEPA Board, faces a very difficult life ! In Mr. Falzon's case, removal from his position so that now MEPA can start its pre-election policy of handing out permits even where such permits are normally refused !

Eddy Privitera

Jul 27th 2012, 16:57

Angelo, where did I write that the Bishops should not preach what the Church teaches about IVF ??? In fact I wrote that no one has the right to stop the Bishops from preaching the teachings of the Church. What I object to, just as I and the majority of the Maltese people had agreed with, is that the Bishops should not TELL MPs how to vote in parliament, as they had done on the divorce issue. What "HATE" did you find in that ?????

How is it that you did not reply to much more specific comments criticizing the Bishops pastoral letter by other commentators, but picked on mine ??? WHY NOT REPLY TO ETIENNE BONANNO'S LEARNED
COMMENT ??

E Schembri

Jul 27th 2012, 12:41

...which also means that, with n IVF live birth rate of 41% for women up to the age of 35, at least 1500+ babies were sacrificed in order for 700 to live. In reality the number is much greater as the survival birth rate is much lower for women over 35 years of age.

Isn't this wrong?? Don't these babies have a right to live, once you have helped to create them? Or is human life nothing more than statistics and numbers?

I completely agree with the church on this as it seems to be the only organization defending the rights of unborn children in this supposedly educated and civilized society.

@Radmilli
The bishop should also meet the 15000+ children that were sacrificed in the process, but unfortunately, he cannot as they are all dead.

As they say, the ends do not justify the means!

Robert Radmilli

Jul 28th 2012, 09:37

@ESchembri

Mr Schembri, I'd love to know who you are referring to when you use "as they say" - who is "they"? Possibly yourself and the rest of the narrow minded people in Malta. In my book the "end" DOES justify the means - its useless debating further. I'd love to know what your position would be had your wife or daughter needed IVF!

O Schembri

Jul 27th 2012, 11:28

Anzi jatuk dritt ghal ANNULLAMENT...qisek izzewwigt xi prodott difettuz u tiehdu lura l fabbrika!!

Claire Busuttil

Jul 27th 2012, 12:19

@schembri- l annulament jatugh meta jaqblilhom, ghax alla ibirek, anke fejn ga ikun hemm t tfal jatugh .....ghalkemm suppost biex tiehu annulamnet iz zwieg irid ma ikunx gie ikunsmat!!

Manuel Briffa

Jul 27th 2012, 12:25

But that's exactly what they're doing Claire and yet, while stating it is their duty, you're nonetheless already condemning them. Surely, if the bill goes through, they will be powerless to stop anyone from accessing his/her rights. So at this stage, let's allow them to do their duty.

Claire Busuttil

Jul 27th 2012, 12:42

@Briffa,
yes in fact they have the right to speak, as we have.
Then everyone is free to stay/be with the church (and take all it`s teaching/rules) or stayy out/get out of it.

Manuel Briffa

Jul 27th 2012, 16:43

But that's exactly how it is presently. Why, has anyone ever stopped you from renouncing your religion?

E Schembri

Jul 27th 2012, 12:53

Your hatred for the church is clouding your view of reality! What does the paedophilia case have to do with this???? That is how you justify your argument?? What nonesense!

You seem to reduce human life to just statistics, just as if children are a consumer product that can be simply purchased to fullfill a couples dream.

The reality is that IVF is not perfect, and for every child born through this process, 2 or 3 are sacrificed. That is what the church is saying, that you cannot treat human life as a statistic.

The church not only has the right to express its views, but is also very correct in what it says with regards to this.

Alfred J. McEwen

Jul 27th 2012, 16:07

Afred J. McEwen
@ E Schembri

What I said is that the bishops are better served in looking at their own backyard and stop meddling in a subject that is far removed from religion but has everything to do with people`s happiness,.. and that for your information is a totally justifiable argument. What the church says or doesn't say is an entitlement to it`s own opinion, and you are also entitled to your beliefs and opinions, just refrain from trying to ram what you believe down people`s throats

Anthony Scicluna

Jul 27th 2012, 16:47

Why do you need politicians to help you decide for or against? May I suggest you read

Anthony Scicluna

Jul 27th 2012, 07:41

While the study has its merits and deserves attention, you cannot misrepresent the results: here you are implying a significant likelihood and you are generalising to a global population (e.g., from Australia to Malta). In the study there are explicit utterances that these results are (a) conditional and (b) non generalisable outside the control group. In other words, just because Maltese and Australians are human it does not follow that sicknesses and genetic defects of Australians are the same as those in Maltese (and vice versa). Also, the study is a controlled study and conclusions apply ONLY to the people therein.

Note the conclusion, for example:

"The fact that the overall risk of BWS in children conceived using IVF remains low and that BWS is, in most cases, associated with a good long-term outcome makes it unlikely that this finding will deter couples from using IVF. Nor does it seem necessary to offer prenatal diagnosis for BWS to couples undergoing IVF. Questions remain, however, about potential effects of IVF on other regions of the genome that are subject to epigenetic regulation. In this context, the observation of a possible association between IVF and Angelman syndrome, another disorder resulting from hypomethylation of the maternal genome, is of some concern (Cox et al. 2002; Orstavik et al. 2003). Although long-term follow-up data of children conceived by IVF are generally reassuring, it remains possible that alterations in genomic imprinting might have other unrecognized health implications for children and adults who were conceived by IVF. Our data reinforce the need for long-term follow-up studies of children conceived by IVF." (Halliday et al 2004)

This, does not however have any bearing on the morality of the issue. Morality is another dimension of IVF

Jo Meli

Jul 26th 2012, 23:22

Well said Joe !

roberto bordino

Jul 27th 2012, 07:54

NOW YOU ARE TALKING

Denis Pace

Jul 27th 2012, 07:57

You have debased scientific arguments by this odious comparison......................Discussion should be mature and based on facts related to the subject

Joe Fenech

Jul 27th 2012, 12:11

Denis Pace

The arguments here was DIGNITY.

As to IVF, there is nothing wrong with it. This is just a fertilisation procedure which takes a couple of days. No on is hurt!

Today people are having face transplants, artificial hearts and limbs. Is that also undignified?

E Schembri

Jul 27th 2012, 13:02

@Joe Fenech

Dignity??

For every successful IVF birth, 2 or 3 babies are sacrificed.....and you said none got hurt??

Irena Shuke

Jul 26th 2012, 22:29

Great post, food for thought!

Mr Albert Borg

Jul 27th 2012, 03:01

why? because there should be a limit to idiocy and bigotry. The Church should preach to its congregation of followers - which last I checked is not the entire Maltese nation.

I really wish you could understand how childish and deluded your arguments revolving around god sound to somebody who can argue on more levelled ground. You are of course entitled to an opinion and nobody is forcing you to do something you wouldn't want to do - just don't force your opinions on others and please don't deny others the possibility of having a new life.

D Buttigieg

Jul 27th 2012, 07:53

Well said! The issue which is at stake for the Church is the treatment of the human embryo, especially since some of the embryos are discarded during the IVF process. One should remember that we were all embryos once, and we are here to comment and vent our feelings because we have been given the chance to live.

Joseph Aquilina

Jul 27th 2012, 00:44

That is exactly what the Church is doing; giving its opinion, it's not forcing anyone to do anything. It is now up to politicians to show if they have any values left!

Kurt Waschnig

Jul 26th 2012, 20:59

this is an excellent point of view, thank you , regards Kurt

Manuel Mangani

Jul 26th 2012, 21:06

Have you any idea what the Natural Law the Bishops are referring to is all about?

B. Cachia

Jul 26th 2012, 22:44

There's no such thing as natural law, whatever theologians or even legal theorists say. All law is human.

Denis Pace

Jul 27th 2012, 08:03

Jien ma naqbilx ma kollox li tghid il-Knisja imma NIRRISPETTA d-dritt li tghid dak li temmen.
Fundamentalizmu jezisti meta ma tirrispettax opinijoni ta' haddiehor ghax ma taqbilx. Dan kien wiehed mill-fallimenti tad-duttrina Mintoffjana. M'ghandiex x'taqsam mal-politika tax-xellug...li suppost hija tolleranti. Bhassoltu, ghandna perverzjoni Maltija, partiggjana u estremista

Eddy Privitera

Jul 27th 2012, 11:43

Dennis Pace> Tidher li INT ma sofrejtx dak li sofrew ELUF KBAR ta- laburisti u ghadhom isofru sa llum ,taht gvernijiet nazzjonalisti, siehbi !

Manuel Mangani

Jul 26th 2012, 21:04

Min qallek li interventi mediċi bhal trapjanti tal-qalb jew tal-kliewi jmorru kontra l-Liġi Naturali?

D Buttigieg

Jul 27th 2012, 07:57

Hawnhekk is-sitwazzjoni hi differenti. Il-Knisja (dan huwa fatt) tfahhar interventi li jsalvaw hajja. Imma hawnhekk, qed nitkellmu fuq qtil ta' embrijuni. Huma zewg fatti totalment differenti.

Claire Busuttil

Jul 27th 2012, 12:23

@christabelle- ghandek punt.

@buttigieg- min qallek li ivf ma tistax isalva hajja??taf kemm hawn nies depressi habba li ma jistax ikollom tfal?

Daniel Buttigieg

Jul 26th 2012, 19:09

well said !!!

Manuel Mangani

Jul 26th 2012, 19:31

Mr. Fitzpatrick:

The Bishop of Gozo's statement that ''every technical methods which replaces the personal conjugal act fails to respect the dignity of the human person and of the unity of marriage and so this is not acceptable." does not equate to saying that your grandson, once conceived, does not have a right to life. Quite the contrary, actually.

Robert Gatt

Jul 26th 2012, 21:30

Mr Fitzpatrick, the difference between what you're saying and what Bishop Grech is saying is that while you are proud of your grandson who was conceived through the IVF procedure, Bishop Grech and many others are not at all proud of having a number of embryos discared to pave way for the few which succeed through the IVF procedure. Rest assured that Bishop Grech, like many others, respects the rights of any human living person.

Reg Fitzpatrick

Jul 26th 2012, 22:08

No Mr Gatt!

Just like Bishop Grech you jump to vague inaccurate conclusions!

My daughter's unused embryos were donated to other childless mothers! So NONE were discarded!

In any case who appointed you to speak on the Bishop's behalf? And since when can you read his mind??

I suggest you leave Bishop Grech to answer for himself! He manages quite well to make his controversial statements without assistance from you or anyone else!

Reg Fitzpatrick

Claire Busuttil

Jul 27th 2012, 12:25

prosit fitzgerald!! i really hope the bishop is reading this

Robert Gatt

Jul 27th 2012, 23:01

Mr Fitzpatrick, as regards to your question who appointed me to speak on the Bishop's behalf - I am not speaking on the Bishop's behalf. He doesn't need me to speak on his behalf. I simply read his plain, simple and clear message and weighted it as against what you said in your comment. The plain truth is that the freezing of embryos is not conductive of the preservation and respect for life. There is a difference between freezing a fertilized egg and what the proposed IVF legislation is in principle stating. At least such legislation is providing a way forward by trying to find a balance between need and exception. Both science and religion have their respective views on how to address a couple's wish to have children even after the natural sexual intercourse fails to yield results. At least the legislation as it is being proposed is seeking to find a balance for this. As regards what you call vague and inaccurate conclusions, what exactly did I vaguely read and inaccurately conclude? I rather find a vague and inaccurate reading your comment posted Thursday 26th July, 18:59. But in any case it seems that for you, you have every right to criticise what the Bishop has to say about IVF, and I, for one, do not have a right to support and believe in his claim. Call me and everybody else like me what you want, but I have respect for your comment even if I do not agree with it, and respect your right to state your opinion. I suggest that you just do the same when you read comments which are not in agreement with your views. I am not ready to ease my moral convictions on the basis of what somebody says in some blog.

D Buttigieg

Jul 27th 2012, 08:03

Using this argument, since miscarriages occur naturally, then killings of people can be justified, since death occurs in nature. Other alternatives should be considered, for example, the preservation of the ova. This would surely solve the problem of the elimination of unwanted embryos.

Etienne Bonanno

Jul 27th 2012, 11:12

@D. Buttigieg
Not at all. If you reread my post I specifically say that an ovum fertilised outside of the reproductive system does not have the potential of growing into an adult because it lacks the necessary environment. This in my view is a different situation than abortion, where the foetus is already implanted and growing, because in this case the potential is there.
Of course your generalisation to the "killing of people" is completely irrelevant to my argument.

Eddy Privitera

Jul 27th 2012, 11:39

Henry S.Pace and all who are arguing against the IVF legislation to be debated and voted on in parliament, should read and reread the post of Etienne Bonanno, and reply to his clear explanations . If they feel unable to do this without bringing God and religion into the equation,then they should retreat from this debate !

David Caruana

Jul 27th 2012, 07:51

And what about those brothers and sisters of goodwill who are atheists, agnostics or belong to a different faith?

Isn't the State duty-bound to legislate also for these people?

Patrick Zammit

Jul 26th 2012, 18:48

Very good point.

walter camilleri

Jul 26th 2012, 19:27

Mr Henry S Pace

So you, in your infinite, God-given wisdom, are consigning all those Good People in Malta and all over the World who have practised birth Control to bring down the birthrate as it has been brought down, to ever-lasting damnation. They will Join Galileo Galilei and Giordano Bruno who refused to accept the earth was flat, and all those burnt at the stake by the Inquisition.

I refuse to believe that a merciful God agrees with Burning infidels at the stake, as no doubt does the rest of t he civilised world nowadays. By extension I refuse to believe that the Pope and the Church were right then, ergo that the Pope and Church were grievously WRONG. A further ergo would follow that it the Church could err then, it could equally be wrong now.

Walter Camilleri

Eddy Privitera

Jul 26th 2012, 23:48

Henry: The Bishops have spoken as is their right. But they should not tell what MPs should do in parliament. That is going beyond what the Constitution states !

Alfred J. McEwen

Jul 27th 2012, 16:58

Alfred J. McEwen
@ Henry S Pace

The church can speak as much as it likes to those that want to listen,.. ``want to`` is the operative phrase, however, one cannot see anything to lose for not listening what the church and it`s followers say. You are entitled to to your opinion as does the church for that matter, and that is the end of it as far as everybody else is concerned.

Anthony Scicluna

Jul 26th 2012, 18:18

and I guess, Eddy, the Labour Party is above all morals and ethics and can decide without studying the matter. Which position do you take? What is IVF? Why is it good? Why is it bad? What are its moral and ethical implications? Does IVF have any? If not, why? Why should the majority vote for IVF? Why shouldn't the prime minister, ministers or any other member of parliament vote on the basis of morals or ethics? Can you distinguish between Christian morals and non Christian morals? If so are there differences? What are these differences?

Answer all these questions Eddy and you get a right to state: "I can see another FREE VOTE in parliament with the vast majority voting in favour of IVF. One wonders whether this time Lawrence Gonzi will act as an individual rather than a prime minister !"

Otherwise don't talk out of your ignorance of the subject and say something sensible. This is not a political scenario if you hadn't guessed

David J Cassar

Jul 26th 2012, 18:19

Mr. Privitera, you said it.... "Everyone is free to believe or not what the Church authorities say'. So please hush up and allow believers to be guided by what the Church has to say. And please not not even attempt to bring up the referendum campaign. That was a DEFINITE protest vote and the outcome had nothing to do with the issue (divorce) in question. Why is it that there are those who always turn issues relating to true values into political issues. Such narrow mindedness!

Eddy Privitera

Jul 27th 2012, 11:10

Anthony Scicluna: Thanks for the lecture ! Yoy ended your lecture with the words: " this is not a political scenario " Once the IVF legislation will be decided in parliament, the subject is also a political matter and not just "ethical", " moral" or " religious", since different people, including MPs, may have different views of what is ethical and moral : For the Church yes. But the IVF legislation will be debated in our parliament and not in the Archbishop's Curia !

Eddy Privitera

Jul 27th 2012, 11:16

David Cassar: from where did you get the information that the result of the divorce referendum was " a protest vote " and not a vote in favour of the civil right of divorce ? !!

You also twisted what I said. I said that the Bishops had every right to proclaim the Church's teaching on IVF. What the Bishops should not do is to TELL MPs how to vote in parliament ! After all, bot the government and the opposition had already agreed in the IVF Bill.

Claire Busuttil

Jul 27th 2012, 12:28

hahahahah!! cool!!

D Buttigieg

Jul 27th 2012, 08:05

Naqbel mieghek mija fil-mija.

walter camilleri

Jul 26th 2012, 18:11

Mr Henry S Pace has every right to his own opinion, as I have too. My opinion is that Mr Henry S Pace believes, along with the Inquisition in 1600 that the Earth is flat, the sun goes around the earth, and the Church was right to burn Giordano Bruno because, along with Galileo, he held that the earth was round.

No doubt he also agrees with the Cathar genocide, the Crusades against the arabs in the middle ages that continue to cause agonies to this day, with families playing Vatican roulette, and so on.

Doubtless he also believes that only he, along with the Pope and a very few others, will finally get to heaven because all the rest of the world practices birth control, having brought down the average number of children per family from around 10 children to less than 2! In case he is not aware of the fact, this is even the case in Malta.

Walter Camilleri

W Cassar

Jul 26th 2012, 17:02

Well said Patrick.

It is up to the people of Malta to decide in the end.... and no one else.

Alfred J. McEwen

Jul 27th 2012, 15:51

Alfred J. McEwen

@ Mark Johnson

And pray, tell me what is so dark about reality? Reality as far as one knows is living with the real facts. Isn't living in an unreal world even darker?

Steve Pace

Jul 26th 2012, 16:49

With all due respect sir, but your comment is a culmination of mixed subjects !

Ms D. Borg

Jul 26th 2012, 17:04

What has God to do with politics?

Matthew Grima

Jul 28th 2012, 14:08

The problem is that you think man is stupid and needs an unproven master to tell him what he needs.

Andy Farrugia

Jul 26th 2012, 20:05

Your credibility is ZILCH, Herr Waschnig from Oldenburg, Germany. Aren't you praising the Church this time like you did for its stand in favour of the human dignity of irregular migrants? You have a spiteful agenda, Herr Kurt Waschnig!

Eddy Privitera

Jul 26th 2012, 16:48

Angelo, I hate nobody ! It seems that it is you who HATES anyone who expresses different opinions to yours. What I wrote is that I am sure there will be INDIVIDUAL priests, Monsignors and perhaps a bishop, who will repeat the same arguments used throughout the referendum campaign !

Stupidly you mentioned the 60s ! Aren't you aware that Archbishop Mercieca had apologised for what the Church did during those years ??????

Denis Pace

Jul 27th 2012, 08:07

It is not just about hate...It is about INTOLERANCE...this is the essential characteristic of Socialism a la Maltija!

Eddy Privitera

Jul 27th 2012, 11:23

Dennis Pace> INTOLLERANT ARE THOSE WHO STATE THAT OUR PARLIAMENT MUST ABIDE BY WHAT THE BISHOPS PROCLAIM ! NOT MUCH DIFFERENT TO ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALISM !

Steve Pace

Jul 26th 2012, 16:15

Tista tisustanzja il-kumment tieghek jekk joghgbok ? Jew forsi qieghed tirreferi ghal min qieghed juza ir religjon biex min ghalih ibezza lin nies bil babbaw biex jikontrolla l'mhuh tan nies ?

Tony Borg

Jul 26th 2012, 16:21

Mela l-knisja tieghek Sur Vella? Jien ma mmurx il-knisja ghal wicc l-isqfijiet imma ghal Alla!!

Jien nawguralek biss li ma tkunx wiehed, li bhali u bhal marti, jkollok bzonn l-ivf.

Alla li nemmen jien fih mhux ha jikkundannanni talli qed nipprova jkolli t-tfal bl-ivf.

Matthew Grima

Jul 28th 2012, 14:05

I've not been to church for years now (excluding funerals and weddings out of respect). I do not plan to go back. I do not have any need for the church, yet the church tries to push it's ideologies on me, and thousands of others like me.

Steve Pace

Jul 26th 2012, 16:29

Exactly ! The state is oblidged to develop a framework by which IVF treatment works in sustainable and dignified parameters . The church has a right to voice its opinion, but if it's intention is to hinder the process and try to block the goverment from creating such a legislation than it's role changes from a religious institute to a militant role , A disturbing resemblence to a way the same insititute handles civil legislation way dack in dark ages !

Mr Joe Micallef

Jul 26th 2012, 16:46

Typical comment of someone commonly taken on monumental rides. Such persons usually go at an insignificant tangent to please themselves and miss the essence of a point of view.

Alfred Gatt

Jul 26th 2012, 16:38

The Church has a right to teach and inform the faithful. Those who want to listen, listen. Those who do not want, it is up to them, but they are still bound in conscience to inform and form themselves. The dictum is "The right to have a child is not an absolute one, but a fundamental right" Couples should do all they can to help themselves but within the ethical conditions mentioned in the Pastoral Letter.

N. Galea

Jul 26th 2012, 17:48

no one has the same beleives, I do beleive in God but I do not agree with the "church's laws" that MEN! created.

Alfred J. McEwen

Jul 29th 2012, 09:18

Alfred J. McEwen
@ Alfred Gatt

...And why should anyone in their right mind be constrained by pastoral letters? If IVF was a thing of evil as someone said earlier in a blog it would certainly not be approved by Civic Law. Yes Mr. Gatt, there are people in this world that find the necessity of having a child is indeed an absolute one, as well as being fundamentally so, and no one has the right to dictate to them otherwise, be it the church or anyone else.

Alfred Gatt

Jul 26th 2012, 16:34

Il-nullita taz-zwieg ma tinghatax ghax ma jistax ikollhom tfal. Iz-zwieg ma jiddependiex fuq it-tfal; l-ewwel l-imhabba tal-mizzewgin. Id-dritt li koppja jkollha tfal mhux dritt assolut, imma fundamentali, jigifieri, li hadd ma jista jiccahhdlek id-dritt naturali. Per ezempju, fic-Cina il-gvern ma jhalliex koppji li jkollhom iktar minn wild wiehed. Imma ikun hemm xi haga li qed tistakola it-tnissil. Il-koppja ghandhom jaghmlu mill-ahjar li jistghu biex isolvu l-problema imma mhux akkost li wiehed imur kontra l-etika tad-dinjita' tal-persuna. Il-persuna mhux oggett li taghmel li trid bih, qiesu ghandek pupu. L-isqifijiet qed jaghtuna t-taghlim nisrani. Min ma jridx jisma', affari tieghu, imma xortra wahda jibqa' obbligat fil-kuxjenza.

O Schembri

Jul 27th 2012, 09:01

It-tghalim li hadt ta Kana hekk qalulna li koppja li jizzewwgu u ma jistax ikollhom tfal ghandhom dritt ghal annullament ghax iz zwieg ghal knisja huwa biex titkattar familha.

Fic-Cina jekk inti infurmat tajjeb ma jithallewx koppji jkollhom iktar minn wild wiehed DIMENT li m'ghandekx fejn tmantni izjed, ghax il faqar huwa kbir.

Ifhem wara kollox kif ghidt inti kullhadd ghandu kuxjenza u kieku in-natura ma taghtnix tarbija kont nghamel minn kollox biex inkattar il familja tieghi.... imma tiggudikawx nies...m ghadux zmien li n nies jibzghu mil Infern tafux!

Claire Busuttil

Jul 27th 2012, 12:35

@gatt - schembri ghandu ragun, min ikun infertili jew inpotenti, il parti l ohra ghandha ragun validu ghal annulament skond il knisja. mela flok nejnu lil koppja, halli jibqu maqun FID DENI U FIL GID, nikancellawha....!!!!
Gravi ta il haga...

William Caligari

Jul 26th 2012, 21:24

Mr Balzan,

another nail on Dr.Gonzi PN coffin.!!!!!

Claire Busuttil

Jul 27th 2012, 12:38

@vanessa, tant kemm jahsbu li huma onnipotenti, li ma jistaw qatt nies!jaraw il verita tan nies!!

Edward Mallia

Jul 26th 2012, 18:01

I may or may not agree with the line of argument of our bishops; but I would certainly not subscribe to the grossly dismissive assertion "that the secular (sic) needs and dignity of society have nothing to do with religious beliefs". If only because of the fact that the whole history of Homo Sapiens to date (from at least the year 100,000 BALG) has been strongly coloured by just that interaction. Of course, the dynamic (in a parliamentary sense) trio invoked by ALG could -- in what is left of this legislature -- overturn all this by convincing "conservatives" that they should really pack their bags and transfer to Mars. But that would require a "miracle" of much greater magnitude than those related by 'peddlers' of religious beliefs.


coloAt the very least I would have to listen carefully to these "peddlers" of religious beliefs, see what planet they inhabit, what they base their claim to "telling" us how to behave is based on, and other pertinent parameters.

Mr ALBERT LEONE GANADO

Jul 27th 2012, 07:52

@ Edward Mallia
I should have perhaps have said "the ethics and dignity of an enlightened modern society"
I do however agree that beyond science, irrationality and illogicalities have existed for more than 100000 years before ALG . I have always come to the conclusion that some men would be better off in Mars but most women are from Venus and deserve as a right the joy of motherhood in cases where modern medical science can help .

Edward Mallia

Jul 27th 2012, 09:44

Not much advance on the first version I am afraid, unless of course ALG is suggesting that these islands comprise the whole of "enlightened modern society". If that is not the case, then it is clear that in this enlightened modern society there will be many people -- enlightened modern citizens at face value -- who will give serious thought to the case made by our bishops. There will be others, like ALG, "JPO, Debbie and Varist" who will disagree. And there will be others, myself included, who might recall recent and relatively recent deeds of "enlightened modern societies" before rushing to apply their alleged standards to this case. The survey might range from the collectivisation of Russian agriculture in the 1920s, to Kristallnacht in 1936 and its aftermath, to Nanking in 1939, the French colonial wars in north Africa and the US intervention in Vietnam on to Sebrenitsa in 1996. I could still reach the same conclusion as ALG, but not so superficially I hope.

J Micallef

Jul 26th 2012, 16:06

Mr Pulis, my congratulations for an excellent contribution.
Well said and well written.

Louis Cutajar

Jul 26th 2012, 15:06

Permezz tal-IVF se se jinqerdu diversi embrijuni, li huma hajja umana, u jekk il-ligi tippermetti li dawn jigu frizati wiehed ma jkunx qed jaghtihom id-dinjita li tisthoqqilhom.

Mario Scicluna

Jul 26th 2012, 14:52

Amen

Liliana Said

Jul 26th 2012, 15:27

Well said Jay!

Steve Pace

Jul 26th 2012, 15:25

I hope you are right.... But i suspect that this is only the begining of another crusade... I suspect the tactics will change however as the days and months pass, the intensity will grow ... let's wait and see

Eddy Privitera

Jul 26th 2012, 15:56

Censu, just wait a few more days and you will see a repetition, or KWAZI, of the arguments we used to hear and read during the divorce referendum campaign ! There will be certain priets and Monsignors , if not a Bishop too, who will proclaim that MPs who vote in favour of IVF, will be committing a mortal sin if not a sacrilege !!!

Carmel Borg

Jul 26th 2012, 16:13

Really? As I see it, the Church is the longest living institution and not coincidentally. It has been through so much, being it internal, scandals, persecution, modernisation etc...It won and it lost, but She is still there and strong and respected...by millions around the globe, both by friends as well as foes.

C Agius

Jul 26th 2012, 15:07


or those men who can't have children.... infertility can come from either partner.

David Farrugia

Jul 26th 2012, 15:40

I think they forgot to put the date at the end of the pastoral. It should read so:
A.D. MCCCXII

Charles Grixti

Jul 26th 2012, 14:43

Tony, 'they' actually believe that so they do not see the humour.

daniel farrugia

Jul 26th 2012, 15:08

I am in favour of IVF but why did you write "embarrassing festas? " they are part of our culture!

Liliana Said

Jul 26th 2012, 15:29

Hypocrates. Live and let everyone live their own lives.

Manuel Mangani

Jul 26th 2012, 18:35

Ms. Said,

Does''everyone'' include the embryos consigned to the freezer?

Joe Fenech

Jul 26th 2012, 19:25

Manuel Mangani

Doe you call sperm and eggs a human?????? Do you know how IVF works?

Paul Pulis

Jul 26th 2012, 14:49

How about confronting Gonzi with mortal sin

S. Cachia

Jul 26th 2012, 14:47

If with "Middle Ages" you mean "respect for life and for the dignity of human persons", then I opt for the MIddle Ages...

Narrow-mindedness never helped in the improvement of a discussion...

Matthew Grima

Jul 28th 2012, 13:57

You're right "Narrow-mindedness never helped in the improvement of a discussion..."

But it's the Church that's trying to keep people's mind as narrow as possible.

Mr Joe Micallef

Jul 26th 2012, 15:05

small brain small talk

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