IVF infringes on human dignity - bishops

Joe Xuereb

Jul 28th 2012, 12:42

@Eddy Privitera (28 ta' Lulju 08:57). Sur Privitera, nafu biżżejjed li l-Knisja, fejn jaqblilha, tagħlaq ħalqha. Nuff said!

@Anthony Scicluna (28th July 08:32). Mr. Scicluna, you are so right. The power of discussion should indeed transcend political partisanship and other trivialities. And you used a clever ploy, if transparent. Namely, that this transcendence applies to both JM and LG who should, according to you, align themselves with their conscience. Well, LG is very adept at this and proof, if such were needed, was when he abdicated his responsibilities as a conscientious RC objector and threw the divorce matter the people for them to vote according to THEIR conscience. Nice one! The yeses won by a narrow margin which means that just over half the Maltese have no conscience and are maybe downright evil. While LG sleeps easy at night. As long as one's conscience is tranquil what does it matter that Malta is secular AND a fully-paid up member of the EU. There is a conflict there somewhere. I can see it. Maybe others can not.

The choice of picture accompanying this article is 'at fault'. Firstly because the tot is a model and as such, was probably conceived away from IVF. Bonny babies always attract the 'Ahhhhh' brigade of course, pulling at out heart-strings. But the baby is coming out of a tube so it IS meant to represent a test-tube baby after all. A bonny child with not a cleft ear-lobe in sight. See what I mean?! Wrong choice of picture.

What is worse than a baby with a cleft ear-lobe is no baby at all. Children are often born with all sorts of deformities (I am thinking of the Gozitan Siamese twins who were conceived 'normally' I shouldn't wonder. Of course the decision to separate them surgically had to be taken abroad where a judge, who may be religious for all we know, decided to transcend this and apply his common sense). One twin died and the other survived and thrives. The layman, in good conscience, decided that one thriving child is better than two dead ones. The Church, and the likes of LG, would opt for this second option. Go figure!

Anyone arguing that IVF fertilisation risks abnormities in the child has an obvious agenda (not partisan?! transcendent?!). Children are born with imperfections all the times even when conceived 'normally'. Note the apostrophes, Scicluna. Are we saying that we want perfect babies all the time? A kind of super-race fantasy. Well, it ain't gonna happen because it never did, way way before test-tubes came on the market.

The bishops could be more concerned about child poverty and dwindling church attendance. And if people did return to their congregational gatherings, I reckon that children will continue to be born, often less than perfectly so.

Eddy Privitera

Jul 28th 2012, 08:57

Intqal li l-IVF ilha tintuza fi klinici privati ghal madwar 20 sena. X'sistemi intuzaw ? L-iffrizar tal-embryos kienet qieghda tintuza ? Jekk IVA, jien ma niftakars li qatt smajt li l-Isqfijiet kienu tkellmu jew hargu pastorali . Forsi ghandi zball, ma nafx. Jista xi hadd jirrispondi fuq dan li staqsejt ?

Anthony Scicluna

Jul 28th 2012, 08:32

@Eddy Privitera
As usual you pick only on the things that are easy to answer. It is not a political scenario in the sense of PN versus MLP. To be quite honest, it should be a forum of real discussion rather than accusations flying from one side to the other. However, your history of comments on the Times shows clearly that you have no clue what discussion means.

Second, mine was not a lecture. They were questions to you and to everyone who is relegating this either wrapped in pro-Church or anti-Church sentiment AND (like you) in pro-partisan politics. From the looks of it, you did not even understand any of it. And the only thing you understood (partisan politics) came out in your response.

The questions are hard and tough ones. They rise above partisanship. As Maltese citizens, rather than loyal members of one party or another, we need legislation that protects all members of the community born and unborn, Christians and non-Christians, Atheists, women and men. If you read beyond the Labour electoral manifesto (if such exists) and read philosophy you will realise that morality and ethics go far beyond religion and the brand of partisan division you and your ilk relish so much.

If Dr Gonzi has the guts to vote in line with his own beliefs, why shouldn't it be so? This issue not a competition between JM and LG. Voting in favour of IVF does not make someone progressive and liberal. Devising a law that safeguards the community is progressive. Voting against IVF does not make someone antiquated either.

For example, does life begin at birth or at conception? The Church (and many other people) assumes it is at conception - this is central to the critical arguments upon which they base their IVF and abortion positions. Upon this they argue they man should not make life cheap.

Love or hate the Church and without the usual pontification, they have an excellent point. If they have a point then isn't the duty of our politicians to be extremely diligent in drafting up legislation and then deciding whether this legislation is good? Shouldn't LG or JM vote according to what they believe in - they are our representatives in Parliament (while overlooking the fact that Joseph Muscat, like KMB, hasn't gotten any votes). Shouldn't the nationalists and the labourites rise beyond partisanship on this issue and show that they can be mature adults? Shouldn't legislation be for the good of the many? (Oh, and all this post was written without unnecessary CAPS lock)

Joe Xuereb

Jul 27th 2012, 21:12

The bishops are at it again! This is a moral issue and I guess they have every right to express their views. In my opinion, they should not meddle in the political, social, scientific aspects of any discussion.

I did not read the whole article and I only read one line of the first comment. What caught my eye was the word 'dignity', repeated ad nauseam. Now I would ask the bishops, and anyone else for that matter - what is this dignity they are on about? We are animals - yes, you read right! - but with an evolved brain. Human consciousness is so complex, and so painful, that all matter of structures have been set up to sugar the bitterest of pills. Going on and on and on about human dignity is just one of these structures. But this is all it is, a euphemism for an animal act. I could write volumes on this but there is no point. There is no point because what I have to say I have said in a couple of lines, succinct, to the point. Many will find calling a spade a spade offensive because, and I have witnessed this in the last few days, they have been conditioned to put the sexual act on a sort of pedestal, all dignified. They do not want the likes of me to shatter their romantic, 'dignified' view of this most basic act. One to know is one who has been through the sexual mill a few times and then some more. Bishops are not exactly in a position to talk about human sexuality. And this precisely why they believe, and they want their followers to be in 'a couple becoming one'; the dignity of the individual. They are not in a position to appreciate that respectability too is a social structure, but otherwise, nothing more than a facade. Dignity?! I don't think so! Handling 'life with a tissue paper' does not a dignified life, make!

@Manuel Mangani (26th July 19:31) and @Robert Gatt (26th July 21:30). Messrs. Mangani and Gatt, Im afraid you have both missed the point or misunderstood what Mr. Fitzpatrick strongly implied. For sure, Bishop Grech would respect the dignity of the grandson once he was born (what other option is there seeing we are talking of a bishop's OWN dignity?). The blatant point that you both chose to miss (agenda in there somewhere?!) was that if the bishop had his way, the grandson would NOT be here at all. Get it?!
It has suddenly occurred to me. What is undignified about the use of IVF? And please do not justify what the bishop is saying by pointing out the loss/waste/discarding of healthy embryos. I say this because human sexual activity is not always done with the intention of siring a child. And hence the Church's obsession around contraception. Now, if the Church is going to emote about IVF it may as well start fretting about the much larger incidence of sexual activity done for its own sake, with or without contraception. The bishops would be well advised to not go down that route that could so easily lead to ridicule.
Bonny child in the picture! There is no guarantee that the 'model' was not conceived through IVF.

@M Darmanin (26th July 23:57). M. Darmanin, you say that ideally a child should be conceived out of a loving union between the spouses. What?! like when couples had sixteen or more children (with the inevitable high child-mortality and the mother, almost as often if she survived at all. All with the Creator's connivance who took her to be kind to her as she could not take it any more): and often living all cooped up in two medium-sized rooms, a terran or a mezzanin (a typical building setup that exists still, of one 'house' on the ground floor with a yard of sorts for drying endless lines of grey diapers and animals - rabbits, hens, pigeons - for the pot, and a similar but separate unit, above, with a roof for animals for the pot and the inevitable grey diapers on the clothes-line. They sired children not out of loving but because they were expected to sire as many children as possible, or else! and of course they obeyed out of sheer ignorance and fear most of all. THE NUMBER OF CHILDREN SIRED DURING THE WAR YEARS IS LEGION. THIS TO APPEASE A GOD ANGRY AT THE WICKED WAYS OF THE WORLD (this level of thinking is still around) AND TO APPEASE SUCH A GOD AND KEEP MALTA SAFE. Of course this did not stop the destruction of god's temples, never mind the people.

Children sired out of a couple of loving spouses?! Initially maybe, probably. But thereafter, it is duty all the way downhill with dignity - such as it is - more and more an imposed figment of the imagination.

In a dwindling population, the bishops should be grateful that there are people still who want children because they cannot conceive. Why don't they leave it at that? Or are they, quite likely, preferring for us to go back to the fertile old days simply to increase their flock? Why worry? In the longer term migrants will replenish the population and for them to be fully paid-up members of the spiritual Maltese, all that is needed is a cupful of water and there you have it - another soldier for Christ. One whose mother will never need IVF because she has amply proven herself judging by her brood.

Angelo Vassallo

Jul 27th 2012, 19:34

@ EDDIE privitera

EDDIE we live in a DEMOCRACY, although I am not sure if you know what is a real democracy. Everybody, like you, has the right to say and write whatever they want to. With the same token the Bishops, Monsignors and Priests have all the right to tell the people, including members of parliament, (who after all are not above we common people) whatever our Bishops want to tell them.

EDDIE you cannot say whatever you want but put a muzzle with the Bishops' mouth and to add insult to injury, you dictate to them what they should say and what they should not say. That is a dictatorship just like the lejburist party.

As I said earlier, I never said that you hate anyone, but at the same time you did not deny that that you definitely dislike very much the Catholic Church Authorities in Malta.

As I mentioned earlier, you do not know what democracy is all about, and in a democracy I do not need your permission, or anyone else's in that case, to reply to whom I feel I should reply. And I have decided to reply to you. If this does not suites you, do not reply to my comments than.

Peter Borg

Jul 27th 2012, 17:28

These people never learn. Another attempt at laying down the law after the divorce debacle. Is the church intentionally trying to self destruct ?

Eddy Privitera

Jul 27th 2012, 17:20

One wonders what " amendments" Dr. JPO intends to suggest to the IVF legislation. Will JPO elaborate or will he be having cold feet, now that he is an "independent" MP ?

Alex Buds

Jul 27th 2012, 15:14

The bishops have never been through the experience of wanting a child and not being able to have one. Their arguments are an unnecessary insult to all couples in that position.

There are many things the bishops can focus on to spend their time more usefully. For example child abuse...

Angelo Vassallo

Jul 27th 2012, 12:49

@ EDDIE privitera

I reiterate that your reply to Censu is nothing else than dissemination of hatred against the Church Authorities in Malta, and it is illegal to disseminate hate.

This is a repetition of the 60's and of 2011 divorce referendum.

I did not say that you hate anybody, but definatley you dislike very much the Catholic Church Authorities in Malta. No you are not anyone who expresses a different opinion to mine, you are EDDIE privitera who is trying to shut the Priests, Monsignors and perhaps even the Bishops' mouths by trying to instil hatred among the lejburisti towards the Church’s Authority. Yes the clergy, from the very top, that is, from their Excellencies the Archbishop of Malta and the Bishop of Gozo down to the most humble friar, if need be, because it is a MUST and it is their RIGHT as well, should use all those arguments that they feel necessary to be able to communicate the Church’s views to the Maltese people

William Caligari

Jul 27th 2012, 12:31

It seems nobody is talking about conscience (kuxjenza) .

Why, what happen?

Is conscience fly away?

Shame, Shame on you!!!

David Smith

Jul 27th 2012, 12:30

A heartfelt thank you to the Bishops of Malta, who steadfastly say the truth, and explain at length what is morally right or wrong. Shame on all those who so promptly attack the Church for saying the truth. The issue now has been placed on the political agenda, and before I cast my vote when the elections are held, I will have taken note of statements made by politicians from both side of the House, just as I have done on the issue of divorce.

K Mifsud

Jul 27th 2012, 11:25

It also means 700+ new babies born in new families which couldn't conceive naturally? what's wrong in this?

Robert Radmilli

Jul 27th 2012, 10:53

Thanks to IVF therefore, at least 750 children were born in Malta, and these same 750+ children would not have come into this world, had their parents listened to the "wise" advice given by the Bishops - I would LOVE to see the bishops meet these 750+ children in a room, and tell them one by one, that had it been up to them, they would not have allowed them to come into this world...

Claire Busuttil

Jul 27th 2012, 10:40

the bishops have all the right to express their view on IVF.....after all is their duty. BUT .......they should also leave others to access their RIGHTS.
After all, the catholic church does not offer so much help to couples who cannot have kids...as far as I know...

Luke Lanzon

Jul 27th 2012, 09:29

Here's an episode of a show on Discovery Science called Bang Goes The Theory which explains the process of IVF, you should skip to 53 seconds into the video for the episode to start.

Alfred J. McEwen

Jul 27th 2012, 08:42

Alfred J. McEwen

Trust the bishops to come out with such a narrow minded and myopic view of IVF. They should better serve themselves in coping with the boundless sexual frustrations that paedophilia emanates from, and that is due to the clergy being prevented from the act of marriage. They have absolutely no idea what a couple go through when they discover that they can`t have children. The only recourse to that problem is IVF, and contrary to their idiotic philosophy, an IVF program brings dignity, restores the morale and fulfillment to a childless couple, that will transform them as such into a family and the moral values in having this wonderful alternative is very high indeed. Bishop Mario Grech `s statement:``Every technical method that replaces the personal conjugal act fails to respect the dignity of the human person and the unity of marriage and so this is not acceptable``. Hollow sounding rhetoric from this man, when a woman is holding a healthy bouncing baby boy or girl not to mention twins and triplets in her loving arms and experiencing the joy and the dignity of a family unit which otherwise would have been impossible by a normal conjugal union.

Mr l Azzopardi

Jul 27th 2012, 08:30

Robin Marantz Henig:

“people get used to all sorts of new technology… at first it seems like it’s abhorrent and it’s something that we absolutely shouldn’t do. And then for a while it seems kind of miraculous… And then after a while, the technology just becomes part of the fabric of daily life.”

In other words I wouldn't let myself get too antagonized by these statements and focus more on the practicality of this issue, ex. funding.

Mr Emanuel Farrugia

Jul 27th 2012, 06:19

"The Church, the bishops said, favoured life more than any other institution in the world and always insisted that science is to be at the authentic service of humanity".

Science and technology have made enormous contributions to our lives and society. But the fact that a certain procedure is technologically possible, does not make it ethically right.

“About 80 unborn babies conceived by in vitro fertilization (IVF) are eliminated by abortion each year in Great Britain, according to a new report…. The statistics from Britain’s Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority (HFEA) show an increasing number of women are choosing abortion for ‘social,’ rather than medical reasons after becoming pregnant by IVF, The Times reported June 6.”

Pope John Paul II taught, the end cannot justify the means: “It is not licit to do evil that good may come of it.”


Emanuel Farrugia [TARXIEN] former student Faculty of Theology & Tribunal Ecclesiasticum Melitense

Maria Bongailas

Jul 27th 2012, 01:20

Unbelievable !! A change in mentality is needed if the Church in Malta wants to have some followers left. Do they know what are the feelings of a couple trying to have their child for a long time without any success and then as a cherry on top of the cake they see your comments?? Very encouraging !!

M Darmanin

Jul 26th 2012, 23:57

my thank you goes to both bishops for their courage to proclaim the truth of God`s will. IVF does not allow the conception of the child to originate from a loving union between the spouses.

Jimmy Ventura

Jul 26th 2012, 23:45

Can GonziPN-JeffreyPM tell us their opinion on IVF and if they agree with the bishops letter?

Thank you.

Dominic Carbonaro

Jul 26th 2012, 22:41

Nixtieq nissugerixxi lill kull min qieghed jikritika lill-isqfijiet, Sabiex qabel ikompli jikritika b'dan il-mod ingust lill-isqfijiet jaqra sewwa bil-Malti jew bl-ingliz dak li qeghdin jghidu l-isqfijiet fil-pastorali taghhom. Meta taqraw bil-kalma dak li qeghdin jghidu ir-raghjja taghna u tifhmu dak li qeghdin jghidu tiskopru kemm din il-kritika hija ingusta fil-konfront tal-isqfijiet. Min qieghed ikun kritiku fuq din l-ittra pastorali jien inhoss li skop wiehed ghandu li jaghmel hsara lill-knisja u ghax jobghod lill-knisja, Xejn inqas u xejn aktar..

Norbert Bugeja

Jul 26th 2012, 22:33

So there's an opportunity for couples who want to become parents and the bishops call it infringment of human dignity?.....an infrigment of human dignity is when opportunities are denied and speaking against an opportunity for couples to have children they can call their own is one.....

Joseph DeGiovanni

Jul 26th 2012, 22:19

What nobody ever says about IVF.

The American Journal of Human Genetics May 1, 2011.

A recent series of observations has suggested a link between in vitro fertilization (IVF) and imprinting disorders, such as Beckwith-Wiedemann syndrome* (BWS [MIM 130650]) and Angelman syndrome (MIM 105830). Symptoms include
Our results indicate that if a child has BWS, the odds that the child was conceived using IVF is ∼18 times greater than that for a child without BWS….
This study demonstrates that children conceived by IVF are significantly more likely to have BWS, compared with children conceived naturally.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1182036/

*Symptoms
• Abdominal wall defect: umbilical hernia or omphalocele
• Creases in ear lobes
• Enlargement of some organs and tissues
• External ear (pinna) abnormalities and low-set ears
• Large size for a newborn (large for gestational age)
• Large, prominent eyes
• Large tongue, sometimes protruding
• Lethargy
• Low blood sugar (hypoglycemia)
• Mild microcephaly
• Separated abdominal muscles (diastasis recti)
• Seizures
• Undescended testicles (cryptorchidism)

Noel Scerri

Jul 26th 2012, 21:57

I understand the stand of the church about this issue and in certain instances I tend to agree especially to the fact that you have to select an embryo, which I believe it is not morally correct. What I mean is that in IVF more than one embryo is created and a limited number of embryos can be selected, the others are discarded. The fact that other embryos are discarded causes a similar issue like abortion, it is like indirect abortion, which I am highly against, whatever the case.

I agree with the IVF only if the discarding of embryos is eliminated from the process, as those are human beings as well.

Henry S Pace

Jul 26th 2012, 21:50

A message to goodwill people.If religious freedom is to be real it needs to allow people to act according to

their conscience.

"A man of conscience, is one who never acquires tolerance, well- being, success, public standing, and

approval on the part of prevailing opinion, at the expense of truth." Pope Benedict XVI

Christabelle Bonnici

Jul 26th 2012, 21:48

Sur Mangani, ghax bhal ma taf int, minghajr daw l interventi medici u teknologici pjuttost invazivi, kieku l persuna tmur..hekk tahdem in natura!! timrad serjament u tmut.. imma minghajr l avvanzi medici ghandek possibilta li tibqa tghix!!

Joe Fenech

Jul 26th 2012, 21:22

YOU WANT TO TALK DIGNITY? What about:

Paedophile priests and a Church that deprives victims whose lives have been ruined of compensation?

Those embarrassing festas which could be lovely but have been allowed to reach such depths of absurdity?

The Church and government not allowing amniocentesis and depriving parents of the choice to do a termination should the foetus suffers from handicap and they know that they can't cope with it? Even a cat kills a weak new born! Those who can cope with it, so far the better but don't deprive others from the choice.

The ruin of the environment and the pollution that's killing Malta?

Reggie Aquilina

Jul 26th 2012, 21:19

I really feel sorry to see the remarks that are thrown at the Church and the Bishops just because they are brave enough to state what they feel is right. Why can't we tolerate more and criticize less? Do they have any personal interest in this? Do you think they enjoy bearing the brunt of all these comments? But they are strong enough to state their convictions - because it is their duty to do so and it is nothing less than we should expect of them. Or do we now think we have become demi-gods in total control of our lives with no need to respect nature and the ways of God? Are we playing Adam and Eve in the Garden all over again - eating from the Tree of Knowledge so that we become gods too? Please don't give me the science and rationality excuse - are people happier because we have put science as our golden idol, do we have stronger communities, less crime, better values? I know someone who could not have children and yes....it was painful...absolutely....they tried everything and when the moment came they went abroad to have an IVF. But something seemed to stop them at the last moment. Now after about 8 years they have a child....naturally and the joy they have is the joy of having waited patiently for God's moments because God's delays are not God's denials. Anyway I know most people will think I am a nut to talk like this but I stand by my beliefs that at least we should REFLECT more before we start firing salvos away at our Bishops who must feel the very heavy burden of caring for a flock that is slowly being waylaid by the 'I am a God' syndrome. I believe there are alternatives to IVF and we should explore them as the Bishops said- it is not a question of science against religion, it is a question of going deep down and rediscovering our soul and the values that Christ gave us to become truly human and children of God.

S Farrugia

Jul 26th 2012, 21:14

Nahseb li l-Knisja ghandha dritt tghid l-opinjoni taghha, imma tasal s'hemm. Il-knisja ma tistax tindahal fl-affarijiet tal-Istat. L-IVF ilu f'pajjizna ghexieren ta' snin, b'mod privat, u l-Knisja qatt ma tkellmet jew attakkat lil dawk li jipprovdu dan is-servizz. Il-Knisja ghandha obbligu u dmir li tghid kif tahsibha, imma li timponi fuq haddiehor le. Fejn trid il-Knisja titkellem? Fuq l-abbuzi li saru fi hdanha qatt ma harget tattakka. Din hija impressjoni hazina li qed taghti l-Knisja. Jiddispjacini nghid li nahseb dawn il-fatturi qeghdin ibieghdu hafna nies mill-Knisja, b'konsegwenza li jitbieghdu minn Alla. Ghalhekk dejjem nemmen, li l-Affarijiet tal-Knisja ghandhom jibqghu fil-Knisja, imma fejn jidhol Alla dik kwistjoni ohra. U ghalhekk nemmen li lKnisja taghmel affariha, u l-Istat jaghmel affarih.

M Saliba

Jul 26th 2012, 20:52

Quote : 'conscience is formed in the light of the principles of natural law '.
Anything which involves scientific intervention is labelled as unnatural by the Church authorities.

(Following the principle of natural law we should go to work ina a natural way - naked and bare footed.)

Best wishes to the 750 women who got pregnant using the IVF method. Others who do not have the means to use IVF should be given this opportunity free. The end justifies the means.

george mercieca

Jul 26th 2012, 20:29

they talk about dignity . i know a women that has been devorced by her husband a non believer for 26 years and still they will not give her a nullment . and they talk about dignity.its do what i say not what i say.

mark borg

Jul 26th 2012, 20:23

alla hares fis sebghajnijiet ma kienx mintoff li nehha il poter li kellha il knisja ..(.l-anqas qassis il qorti ma stajt itella) ghax kieku illum in nisa bl ghonnella gabuwhom .........GRAZZI PERIT TALLI SALVAJTNA MILL FUDAMENTALISMU !

Kurt Waschnig

Jul 26th 2012, 20:10

The Church and no other organisation will be able to stop the introduction of a holistic and mature law on IVF in Malta.

The introduction of a divorce law was a landmark in Malta´s history and there is no doubt IVF will help lot of couples to fulfil a deep and natural wish.

If there were a referendum on IFV, I am absolutely sure the Church would be the LOSER again like in the referendum on divorce.
Nowadays rationalism and science will always prevail over ideology.


Best regards


Kurt Waschnig Oldenburg Germany


e-mail: [email protected]

Christabelle Bonnici

Jul 26th 2012, 20:01

Gheziez isqfijiet, j Alla qatt ma tigu bzonn intervent mediku jew xi trapjant tal qalb, jew forsi xi trapjant ta xi kilwa...pero f dak il kaz ara ma tithajrux taghmlu l intervent mediku ghax dan imur kontra l ligi tan natura! skond it taghlim taghkom, wiehed f dan il-kaz ghandu jistenna l mewt tigi ghalih u ma jaghmel xejn biex jintervjeni ghax hekk trid l ligi tan natura.. u l istess l IVF!!.. HALLUNA!!!

Reg Fitzpatrick

Jul 26th 2012, 18:59

Bishop Mario Grech states:
"Every technical method which replaces the personal conjugal act fails to respect the dignity of the human person and of the unity of marriage and so this is not acceptable."

I am sorry but you cannot offer this type of vague guidance as a blanket cover-all for all circumstances!

Sat next to me at this moment is my fourteen year old grandson, created by both of his parents in a loving relationship but due to necessity he was conceived in a test tube because of his mother's medical inability to conceive naturally. The embryo was planted in her womb and my grandson was carried and successfully born!

Bishop Grech! Would you like to meet my grandson, he is over here in Gozo for today and tomorrow, and tell him he hasn't got a right to life for fear of "disrespecting human dignity"

I suggest you meet one of these IVF children before you pontificate on the subject!

Etienne Bonanno

Jul 26th 2012, 18:38

It is ironic that a technology that serves to create new life where there was hitherto no possibility of life be labelled as a threat to human life.
The Catholic Church's objection to IVF is that in their view any fertilised cell either already is or else has the potential of becoming a full human person.
I would submit that a "person" is a lot more that a strand of DNA in a fertilised cell. Fertilising an egg is only the first part of the recipe for making a human. An incalculable number of processes have to be undergone by the embryo before becoming even vaguely recognisably human and none of these processes are possible outside a human womb. I would submit that the formation of a "person" can only be considered when at least some kind of order has developed and cells have began to differentiate, hence forming a foetus. A mass of unorganised cells in my view cannot be considered a person as any personality, consciousness or emotion requires the presence of a working, albeit not necessarily complete, nervous system.
I would also submit that a cell that has been fertilised outside a normal reproductive system does not in fact have the potential of growing into a fully realised human since it lacks the environment that is crucial to its development, such environment naturally supplied by the womb. We today know that various stages in the development of the foetus are triggered by chemicals and hormones secreted within the womb at carefully tuned times and quantities and that no normal development is possible outside this highly regulated environment.
Acceptance of these two premises would mean that the Church's objections to IVF would vanish into thin air. It would mean that IVF could be viewed as a way of making the best out of a bad situation and creating life where no life would have been possible before.
One has to keep in mind that the mammalian reproductive system, while being fascinating, is also far from perfect in its own right. Miscarriages are fairly commonplace, sometimes at the earliest stages of pregnancy or even before the embryo has even implanted itself within the uterine lining, so much so that very often a miscarriage goes completely unnoticed. It is indeed common that even a normally fertile couple has to try multiple times to get pregnant because of these issues. IVF is simply an orchestrated version of this process that normally occurs naturally.

Henry S Pace

Jul 26th 2012, 18:05

To all bloggers on this subject.

As Bishops of Malta and Gozo, bearing in mind the cultural context of today’s society, we are addressing this

Pastoral Letter primarily to the Catholic community of our country; but also to our Maltese and Gozitan

brothers and sisters of goodwill who genuinely hold Catholic teachings at heart.2

tony abela

Jul 26th 2012, 18:03

Without going into the merits of IVF, whether moral, emotional, medical, spiritual, etc I just wonder why for the last 30 years or so since IVF was available in Malta in Private practice, of course at a cost, how come nobody raised one finger to raise the same questions being raised now by who ever, whether it is the Church Authorities, NGOs, opinionists , specialists, etc.

Henry S Pace

Jul 26th 2012, 18:01

@ Eddy Privitera

The Malta Constitution states:-

' 2. (2) The authorities of the Roman Catholic Apostolic Church
have the duty and the right to teach which principles are right and
which are wrong.
(3) Religious teaching of the Roman Catholic Apostolic Faith


The church speaks to the people who want to listen.

The Church is never a loser but the people who do not want to listen are the true losers.

Eddy Privitera

Jul 26th 2012, 17:47

Henry Pace: You have said all this during the referendum campaign. Malta is a secular state not a confessional one. Everyone is free to believe or not what the Church authorities say.

I can see another FREE VOTE in parliament with the vast majority voting in favour of IVF. One wonders whether this time Lawrence Gonzi will act as an individual rather than a prime minister !

Joseph Fenech

Jul 26th 2012, 17:47

THE CHURCH IS NEVER THE LOSER IN ANY KIND OF REFERENDUM ETC .

THE REAL LOSERS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN THOSE WHO WENT AGAINST THE TEACHINGS OF THE CATHOLIC FAITH AND WHO AFTERWARDS HAD TO LIVE WITH THEIR CONSCIENCE .

THE CATHOLIC LEADERS AND FOR THAT MATTER ALL CATHOLIC SHOULD ALWAYS STAND UP TO BE COUNTED WHEN THE FAITH IS ATTACKED -- MIN JICHAD LILI, NICHAD LILU JGHID IL - MULEJ

Mr D Galea

Jul 26th 2012, 17:41

Naqra dawn il-kummenti jaqbadni d-dahk:

Intom tahsbu il-knisja titkellem biex tidher sabiha? biex tipprova tinghogob ma' erba' li ghandhom kull lanzita ghall knisja daqsiex? Il-Knisja fi d-dmir taghha li xxandar bl-akbar heda dak li jrid Kristu Gesu u xejn anqas... hu stess qalla "tigu ippersegwitati minhabba f'ismi".

Grazzi lill-isqfijiet li jdawlu lil dawk li jemmnu b'dak li hu veru. J'alla nisimghu aktar fuq issues differenti.

Jinsab fil-middle ages minn minghalih dak li jghid hu biss huwa tajjeb u jahseb li haddiehor ghax ma jaqbilx mieghu ma jistax jitkellem.

Henry S Pace

Jul 26th 2012, 17:17

For the attention of all MPs.

Catholics including legislators, are not free to vote for parties or laws which deviate from

the Church's teachings. Some points raised in this note are:

An atmosphere of cultural relativism exists in many democratic countries. But the concept of

pluralism which accepts all systems of morality as equally valid must be rejected. Only the moral and ethical

systems taught by the church are correct. That is because the Church's "...ethical precepts are rooted in

human nature itself and belong to the natural moral law."

william cauchi

Jul 26th 2012, 17:12

If it again come to a referendum, IVF or no IVF, the Church again will be a big loser but this time the margin will be much bigger.

Why?

Which parent, grand parent, family member will vote against and negate one of their own to not having the possibility to have a child when all other methods have failed.

Can the Church face again another big debacle.

michael catania

Jul 26th 2012, 17:04

When will they ever learn

P. Vincenti

Jul 26th 2012, 17:00

It seems that I am reading a completely different pastoral letter to some. Blinded by an anti catholic prejudice, many have missed the essence of this document which notably includes a recognition by the Church that law makers have a responsibility to enact a law that respects human life and one that regularizes the situation. It seems that a win-win solution for all is at hand but much depends on what the law will contain.

Henry S Pace

Jul 26th 2012, 16:57

' IVF infringes on human dignity - bishops '

We have a tendency to think that we can solve all problems with the right "technology." But children are not

engendered by technology or produced by an industry. Children should arise from an act of love between a

husband and wife, in cooperation with God. No human being can "create" the image of God. That is why we

say that human beings "procreate" with God. Engendering children is a cooperative act among husband,

wife, and God himself. Children, in the final analysis, should be begotten not made.

Patrick Zammit

Jul 26th 2012, 16:53

The Catholic Church was, is and will always be against knowledge and science since these see God pushed into ever decreasing gaps.

The Church was against pain relief during childbirth because God did not want it since He had punished Eve to suffer pain during labor after man's eviction from the Garden of Eden.

It was against those who said that the World isn't flat or that the Sun does not orbit the World because the Bible said otherwise.

It also campaigned against education describing schooling as the deed of the devil.

IVF helps those couples whom God has forgotten and nobody has the right to negate them the joys parenthood brings. It is already very sad to see that although Mater Dei is equipped with what is necessary to offer IVF, our PM does not believe in the separation of state from religion.

Henry S Pace

Jul 26th 2012, 16:43

' Many times, a significant number of human embryos are sacrificed for the sake of the birth of the desired child.... '

IVF is not only a means to have children, it is also a means to have better children. Part of the moral analysis



of IVF would have to deal with the eugenic measures that are an inevitable part of the process. Part of every

IVF procedure entails the screening of embryos to determine their fitness prior to implantation. The process

excludes those embryos with undesirable characteristics ranging from genetic diseases to the wrong sex.

Unused embryos are either destroyed or placed in frozen storage for later use. For hundreds of thousands of

these embryos, "later" never comes. They languish in storage for years and are eventually forgotten or

abandoned.

mark johnson

Jul 26th 2012, 16:41

Frankly, we don't hear enough from the bishops.

Malta has a religion, the catholic religion, and it is the constitutional duty of them to tell it like it is, according to the catholic religion.

I wish they would speak out on more issues, to give a guiding light in the darkness of reality.

Joseph Rapinett

Jul 26th 2012, 16:40

The problem is that man is thinking that he knows better than God. Look at the present political situation!!!!!

Ivan Balzan

Jul 26th 2012, 16:32

Bishops you are in for a another surprise when parliament votes in favour of IVF giving many couples the chance to have families they deserve. Your teachings and pastoral letters have become a joke and you are pushing away people from your own fold. If your herd wants to abide by your man made rules then its their right to do so but again stop messing around with other people's business, its basically none of your business what other people want to do with their lives .

Kurt Waschnig

Jul 26th 2012, 16:31

I do not know how many couples are looking for help to fulfil their dream to have a baby boy or girl. The wish to have an own child is natural and can be very strong especially when everything is done but it does not work

Couples who are unable to have children amounts to around 10 percent of all couples and this number is constantly on the rise due to the tendency of having children later on in life and an increased prevalence of sexually transmitted diseases, which can damage the reproductive organs.

Modern medicine has made tremendous progress and I am of the opinion there shall be an regulation of IVF
(in vitro fertilisation) in Malta by a law that shall be passed in parliament and implemented. The success rate of IVF is around 30 percent.

But one shall consider IVF is able to help 30 percent of couples that is a great progress because it shows that IVF helps to fulfil a human dream of couples to have their own child.

I am sure there will be lots of debates and discussions on IVF before a bill can be passed. It is in the interest of childless couples to pass and implement a bill that allows the use of IVF.

“The Church, the bishops said, favoured life more than any other institution in the world and always insisted that science is to be at the authentic service of humanity. “

But when The Church “ favoured life more than any other institution in the world” why was clerical child abuse covered up by the Catholic Church in Malta?
The Church has lost credibility and reputation in Malta and the impact of the Church on Maltese has decreased and the Church´s word is no longer heeded. Globalisation has reached Malta and secular ideas and values prevail.
One who followed the debates and discussions on divorce could realise reason prevailed over ideology.

And I am sure a majority of MPs will vote for the introduction of IVF in Malta.

IVF will help lots of childless couples in Malta.



Best regards


Kurt Waschnig Oldenburg Germany


e-mail: [email protected]

Angelo Vassallo

Jul 26th 2012, 16:17

@ EDDIE privitera

Your reply to Censu is nothing else than dissemination of hatred against the church. Like in the sixties and before the divorce referendum.

Hubert Paul Farrugia

Jul 26th 2012, 16:12

This pastoral letter is a clear violation of the right to establishing a family under the European Charter of Human Rights.

Several pages of beating around the bush will not lessen their 'nicht nicht nicht' attitude no matter what on this issue. Yet, the suffering of so many couples who cannot conceive a child remains.

Henry S Pace

Jul 26th 2012, 16:10

' IVF infringes on human dignity - bishops '

Catholics including legislators, that they are not free to vote for parties or laws which deviate from the

Church's teachings

The Church teaches that medical research must refrain from operations on live embryos, unless there is

moral certainty of not causing harm to the life or integrity of the unborn child and mother, and on condition

that the parents have given free and informed consent to the procedure. Since stem cell research on human

embryos, in practice, invariably causes the death of those embryos, it too stands condemned.

In summary, the Catholic Church condemns as gravely evil acts, both IVF in and of itself, and stem cell

research performed on IVF embryos.

Barney Camilleri

Jul 26th 2012, 16:06

Dear Bishop
Allow me to disagree with such a simple assumption. In the past sometimes the church dictated and was proven wrong. Remember the claim the world is the center of the universe; or if God wanted men to fly he would have given him wings; or with church donation you gain a place in heaven; or going against church teaching you are damned.
I believe science when applied to help, is the Christian way. Jesus left us one commandment: 'love your neighbor as yourself', what better way is there to help parents who love to have a child.
St. Paul advice to remain single to concentrate to please God, why stop a couple who want a child who is God's blessing from being conceived. It is available with today's knowledge? they both have the same end to please and glorify God and to find joy after this life is over.

Mr Ernest Vella

Jul 26th 2012, 16:05

Min ma joghgbux, ma jersaqx iktar lejn il-Knisja...jaghmel grandissmu pjacir lil kulhadd. Xbajtu tuzaw il-Knisja ghal iskopijiet ta mohhkom.

J Micallef

Jul 26th 2012, 16:04

they missed the whole point...

Peter Simpson

Jul 26th 2012, 16:04

Catholics should obey their Bishops if they want to; its their right,, but a European State-except for the Vatican, must legislate for all, and according to what is going on in other European States; we are not the black sheep!

Eddy Privitera

Jul 26th 2012, 16:03

HAS ANYBODY HEARD OF ANY PASTORAL LETTER CONDEMNING THE REOPENING OF SO MANY GAMBLING SHOPS THROUGHOUT MALTA AND GOZO ????? OR ARE SUCH PLACES, WHICH RUIN SO MANY INDIVIDUALS AND FAMILIES, IN CONFORMITY WITH CATHOLIC TEACHINGS ???

N. Galea

Jul 26th 2012, 15:59

I wonder if all of this will ever stop!

Surely the church hasn't got an idea what it feels like wanting children and for whatever reason they cannot get them. How dare the church stop couples from being happy! The frustration and the psychological problems these situations carry are unbelievable. I cannot understand why the church has not learned a huge lesson from the divorce referendum and when the church will stop interfering in people’s lives and delicate situations.


I agree with IVF 100% and I am happy for all those people that was a success to them! and Good luck to the ones that might need it in the future! xXx

O Schembri

Jul 26th 2012, 15:56

Mela imbghad nibqaw bil mentalita li koppja ma jistax ikollha tfal ghanda dritt ghal annullament!!!

Jidhru li ma jafux x jigfieri il-hajja mizzewga u x xewqa ta koppja ghat tfal ta!

Kurt Waschnig

Jul 26th 2012, 15:48

I do not know how many couples are looking for help to fulfil their dream to have a baby boy or girl. The wish to have an own child is natural and can be very strong especially when everything is done but it does not work

Couples who are unable to have children amounts to around 10 percent of all couples and this number is constantly on the rise due to the tendency of having children later on in life and an increased prevalence of sexually transmitted diseases, which can damage the reproductive organs.

Modern medicine has made tremendous progress and I am of the opinion there shall be an regulation of IVF
(in vitro fertilisation) in Malta by a law that shall be passed in parliament and implemented. The success rate of IVF is around 30 percent.

But one shall consider IVF is able to help 30 percent of couples that is a great progress because it shows that IVF helps to fulfil a human dream of couples to have their own child.

I am sure there will be lots of debates and discussions on IVF before a bill can be passed. It is in the interest of childless couples to pass and implement a bill that allows the use of IVF.

“The Church, the bishops said, favoured life more than any other institution in the world and always insisted that science is to be at the authentic service of humanity. “

But when The Church “ favoured life more than any other institution in the world” why was clerical child abuse covered up by the Catholic Church in Malta?
The Church has lost credibility and reputation in Malta and the impact of the Church on Maltese has decreased and the Church´s word is no longer heeded. Globalisation has reached Malta and secular ideas and values prevail.
One who followed the debates and discussions on divorce could realise reason prevailed over ideology.

And I am sure a majority of MPs will vote for the introduction of IVF in Malta.

IVF will help lots of childless couples in Malta.



Best regards


Kurt Waschnig Oldenburg Germany


e-mail: [email protected]

R. Balzan

Jul 26th 2012, 15:47

The IVF law will pass through Maltese parliament, whatever the local religious bigots have to say, now more than ever with Dr Pullicino Orlando dictating matters.

walter camilleri

Jul 26th 2012, 15:36

Sadly, our Bishops seem to think more of control - "thou shalt not" - rather than the joy of a couple previously judged sterile, who, through the Grace of God, and of modern science allowed to happen by the very same God, have finally been blessed with their own long hoped for offspring.

The bishops, whose inclinations may not tempt them towards the joys of parenthood, apparently do not even begin to appreciate the desolation experienced by childless couples, nor even the joys of a parenthood finally awarded them by a merciful and loving God - a joyful parenthood they wish to deny.

In less bombastic language, bishops, get a life.

Walter Camilleri

Ms Lisa Camilleri

Jul 26th 2012, 15:26

infringes human dignity??? lol!

victor caruana

Jul 26th 2012, 15:25

Meta tinduna kemm hu veru kbir Alla, ir-religjon tigi irrelevanti...Halluhom jghazzqu fl-ilma lill-isqfijiet.

Gino Borg

Jul 26th 2012, 15:21

"The Church, the bishops said, favoured life more than any other institution in the world "

Are they serious! Have these backward-minded bishops forgot the millions of people killed during the Roman,Spanish and Medieval Inquisition?What about the Albigensian Crusade,or the persecution of the Cagots? Or the witch-hunt persecution?

"and always insisted that science is to be at the authentic service of humanity." Really?!

So why did the church burned Giordano Bruno at the stake?And why was Galileo put on trial?

The fact of the matter is that he church has always persecuted those who do not hold on to their dogma.And it seems that it will continue to do so.So before the bishops talk about morality and science they better do some research on their own institution instead of trying to make people forget the church's condemnable past.

j brincat

Jul 26th 2012, 15:18

Now, politics apart, what about the sufferings of couples who want to have a child? With few exceptions (career women and then rarely here in Malta) all women want to have a baby. AND this is Mother Nature!
Does this not come into the equation for the bishops? Doesn't seem so, maybe because of all their dogmas!

And this is Y2012 AD, or is it?

Remember Galileo when he said that the world was round? He had to go through all the hell meted out by the Roman Catholics Inquisitors. At the end of the day HE was right not the bigoted Inquisitors and he got away with it because he was Italian! The others (MANY) were burnt at the stake labelled as heretics!


So back to Malta it seems like we are still in the Middle Ages. Aren't we supposed to be a Republic where secularisation is supposed to differentiate between state and religion?

But then we are a unique breed cut off from the rest of the world. We live in an absolute vacuum!


Heqq x'taghmel!



(jb)

Louis Cutajar

Jul 26th 2012, 15:17

Il-problema tal-infertilita hija problema vera għax fil-koppja hemm xi ħaġa li twieldu biha u allura din qed tikkawża infertilita? Jew il-problema tal-infertilita hija riżultat ta' xi deċiżjoni li tkun ħadet il-kopja kemm liberalment jew ġiet imposta fuqhom? Il-fatt li mara tibda taħseb biex ikollha tfal ta' eta akbar il-propabilita li jkun hemm infertilita hija akbar. Issa jekk din tiddeċiedi liberalment b'kapriċċ għandha tkun hi stess li ġġorr din ir-responsabilta. Imma ħafna drabi din id-deċiżjoni tkun imposta fuq il-koppji għax jibdew jaħsbu ta' eta' kbira minħabba problemi finanzjarji biex jakkwistaw propjeta, jew inkella il-kundizzjonijiet tax-xogħol mhumiex b'tali mod li jagħmluha faċli biex koppja jkollha tfal u biex irabbuhom. Allura l-ewwel u qabel kollox l-istat għandu jgħin lill koppji li jixtieqi jibnu familja t'eta żghira u minħabba finanzi ma jistgħux. Ghandu jirregolarizza il-prezzijiet tal-propjeta u mhux kulħadd jitlob bl-addocc, jigu regolizzati l-agenziji tal-propjeta u anke l-imgħaxijiet fuq is-self mill-bank. Nahseb jekk nibdew minn dawn inkunu għamilna pass kbir il-quddiem, u parti mill-problema ta' infertilita, jew rata baxxa ta' twelid titranġa.

Luciano Mule Stagno

Jul 26th 2012, 15:10

How is assisting fertility different from any other medical procedure? The church accepts organ and tissue transplants and even keeping a person alive by artificial means. One could argue that the latter cases also go against God's plan since the person would have died without this human intervention. How is that different from helping a couple conceive a child?

And if as stated in the pastoral letter:

"“From conception, a life is begun which is neither that of the father nor of the mother, it is rather the life of a new human being with his own growth. It would never be made human if it were not human already”.6"

why is a miscarried foetus not given a proper church burial in a grave of its own as a child would?

N. Agius

Jul 26th 2012, 15:09

Speechless! Unfortunatley, this is the mentality which is keeping away the younger generations from the Catholic Church. There is absolutely nothing wrong with IVF. This is the opposite of abortion.. do you get it?

Vanessa Mifsud

Jul 26th 2012, 15:06

Ghadhom ma jafux kemm qedghin ibedghu nies mill-knisja jekk ikomplu sejrin hekk!

Mr ALBERT LEONE GANADO

Jul 26th 2012, 14:58

Here we go again. After the unnecessary divorce battle let us hope that a larger segment of the Maltese public is now mature enough to realize that the secular needs and dignity of society have nothing to do with religious beliefs. Since the birth of the first test tube baby 34 years over 4million babies have been born through the IVF procedure. We should all be grateful to the Nobel prize winner Dr. Timothy Edwards who was a pioneer in blessing millions of childless couples with the joy of having a child. As the leading family institutions in Israel, the most advanced country in IVF research, state as policy is that what makes a family is children. How more can one value the gift of life than giving childless couples the right to have children. Unfortunately in our country at present it is only those who can afford an expensive private treatment who can have children through this miracle of medical science. Perhaps JPO, Debbie and Varist can get together once again to ensure that this legislation goes smoothly through parliament without being stymied by the obstacles which are surely ,as in the case of divorce, to be laid in its path by the conservatives.

Frans Aguis

Jul 26th 2012, 14:53

not even the nutcase creationists in america, who bless their souls believe we used to go to school with dinosaurs, dare to touch IVF.

Joe Briffa

Jul 26th 2012, 14:48

Why doesn't the Bishop shut up and let the people decide what they want? The indignity of it all is that the Church wants to decide what's good for the people and what's not. This reeks of the Divorce debate again!

F. Pisani

Jul 26th 2012, 14:47

Can the bishops stop speaking rubbish and get down from there world and step in the normal everyday life which all of us live in? I am a person who accepts life as it is. If god will eventually grace me and my wife with the joy of having children with natural means I will be happier than happiness could be. But if due to natural causes we will not be able to have, I am the sort of person who will never adopt other babies, because no matter who much you love them they will never be yours. So the only way would be IVF, and don’t know what my reaction would be at that time. I know people who had there babies through IVF and you cannot even imagine who much pain these people go through. And with what they are saying a women should be in mooring every month because as we all know a women get her menstrual cycle yes, so this means that an embryo didn’t received the chance to become a baby so a “life” in the way has be destroyed automatically yes? So what is the difference than? Is it no the same? It is the normal cruelty of life where the stronger always lives or it a matter of luck of who will be selected.

Frank Psaila

Jul 26th 2012, 14:44

Another lesson from the guardians of morality.

What lesson can a person who decided that he is pro-life but not involving himself in procreating can give to those who are being tormented with such a dysfunction?

I hope this will not be treated with the same morality objections raised during the divorce debate. Given time, the method will improve with a much more accurate outcome than today, but it doesn't mean in the meantime we don't use whatever we have available now to soften the scar on so many couples.

The same spirit of this letter can be published for those who want to give their kid for adoption, since it was their choice by will or mischief that they have to keep their child guardianship.

Hope common sense rules for once, and keep it a social issue more than political.

M Mifsud

Jul 26th 2012, 14:44

When I look at the picture in this article, what do I see? A MIRACLE!

S. Cachia

Jul 26th 2012, 14:41

Nirringrazzja lir-rghajja taghna talli ghal darb'ohra offrewlna dan it-taghlim car fuq kif il-Kattolici u dawk kollha ta' rieda tajba li ghandhom ghal qalbhom id-dinjità umana ghandhom jimxu fil-konfront tal-kwistjoni tal-IVF. Naqbel mal-fatt li l-Knisja hija l-iktar istituzzjoni li ghandha ghal qalbha il-gid, il-hajja u d-dinjità tal-persuna umana.

Nappella lis-socjetà biex tirrifletti fuq dan il-kontribut li qed jaghtu l-isqfijiet u jalla l-parlamentari taghna kollha jkollhom dejjem ghal qalbhom id-dinjità tal-bniedem skont kuxjenza iffurmata tajjeb, li ma jibdlu qatt valuri mhux negozzjabbli ma' interessi personali, tal-ftit jew tal-voti, u li jifformulaw iktar ligijiet li jipprotegu d-dinjità umana mit-tnissil naturali sal-mewt naturali kif ukoll lill-familji.

Paul Pulis

Jul 26th 2012, 14:34

"An authentic Christian conscience is formed in the light of the principles of natural law ..."
Dear bishops, please note that natural law is based on the principle of natural selection. Put in crude terms, this principle translates into survival of the fittest. It was only through the efforts of science that those deemed unfit to survive did indeed survive. Others who had the misfortune to find themseves in life threathening situations, were also helped by the development of science.
Those who are familiar with history, are not surprised with the bishops attitude which continues to perpetuate the eternal battle between science and dogmatic religion.

C Azzopardi

Jul 26th 2012, 14:34

Bishops infringe the Religious and Human right to be free to make your own decisions, if this does not involve hurting other people.

Jay Oatmon

Jul 26th 2012, 14:30

This is the third millennium - not the sixteenth century.
In my view the church needs to bring itself up to date, and stay out of medical matters and other non core religious debates.

John Scerri

Jul 26th 2012, 14:24

IVF promotes life .
A couple who, for some reason are unable to promote life in the natural biological manner have a means to become parents .
This is IVF

There is absolutely nothing wrong in this . punto a basta.

Women wish to become mothers and men wish to become fathers thanks to their partner who will be carrying their child with the help of In Vitro Fertilisation.

Censu Figolli

Jul 26th 2012, 14:21

Personally, I am in favour of IVF, and I do not really structure my thoughts according to the Ecclesiastical teachings. However, the statement shows that, at least, the Church has matured a lot from the last rants they had about the divorce issue. Finally they are explaining their teachings without imposition.

Joe Fenech

Jul 26th 2012, 14:16

Does this infringe human dignity?

http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20120726/local/-It-is-an-injustice-pure-and-simple-.430136

Mario Farrugia

Jul 26th 2012, 14:15

The church has no leg to stand on when crriticising scientific advancements in any form or shape, as history shows us it has always been on the losing side in the war of religion vs science (the earth believed to be at the centre of the universe comes to mind ...!!!!)

Roderick Cristina

Jul 26th 2012, 14:14

step in the shoes of these women who can not have children before you speak up!

Mr Richard-Nazzreno Farrugia

Jul 26th 2012, 14:13

We thank our bishops for handing us this pastoral letter which provides a clear synthesis of the Church's moral teaching as regards IVF, and shows the Church's care towards couples facing infertility, encouraging the scientific and political world to tackle this problem in a holistic way. This document does truly live up to its name: it's "pastoral" written according to the logic that "Charity and truth go hand in hand; it is truth which ensures authentic charity" (n.7).

tony camilleri

Jul 26th 2012, 14:12

in the immortal words of monty python... "every sperm is sacred".

francis x caruana

Jul 26th 2012, 14:11

its about time the church in malta stos all this nonsense and fear.IT SEEMS church never learn here from past mistakes.the more they ome out with such statments the more maltese will trust them less. Figures over the past 20 years or more speak for themselves.

Joe Fenech

Jul 26th 2012, 14:10

YOU WANT TO TALK DIGNITY? What about:

Paedophile priests and a Church that deprives victims whose lives have been ruined of compensation?

Those embarrassing festas?

The Church and government not allowing amniocentesis and depriving parents of the choice to do a termination should the foetus suffers from handicap and they know that they can't cope with it? Even a cat kills a weak new born! Those who can cope with it, so far the better but don't deprive others from the choice.

The ruin of the environment and the pollution that's killing Malta?

C Agius

Jul 26th 2012, 14:10

Child abuse infringes on human dignity -- didn't see the bishops rushing to denounce it. In actual fact, they did the opposite and hid it.

may I remind you using your own words above: of your obligation to form your conscience properly, as Catholics with a morally and correctly formed conscience are called upon to give witness to the Truth of Love, and this love is confirmed by the same truth.

Or don't these words apply to the Church and its priests?

Anthony Pace

Jul 26th 2012, 14:04

What are these bishops on about? Do they not realise that in the twenty-first century secular life does not interfer with people's private lives. IVF is a method of procreating life for those couple who are infertile. If there is a method to cure infertility the experts would have dealt with it.

Joseph Mercieca

Jul 26th 2012, 14:03

Parliament is now tight shut on the IVF issue. Both Prime Ministers (Gonzi + JPO) and PL are now unanimous on the social right issue. The Nationalist Party has now sold its soul to the devil by humiliating itself to bend on its knees on all accounts so long the Gonzipn terminates its 5 year stay in power. It high time Mons Grech confronts Gonzi to rethink on the Church/PN alliance pact.

Ramon Casha

Jul 26th 2012, 14:00

Couples have to decide for themselves whether to live their lives based on the edicts of unmarried men who think that a rubber condom is evil, or live in the 21st century. The important thing is that our laws, our government, our courts, our medical services etc. are in no way influenced by pronouncements such as these.

Bertrand Gove

Jul 26th 2012, 13:53

Fine, Bishops' point-of-view taken.

Now, on to the alternative point-of-view.

The hardship that couples who are unable to concieve go through is nothing the Bishops can ever understand. They are programmed differently. They do not have the natural instinct to procreate, otherwise, they would have chosen a different path in life. What do they know?

Let me ask a question to the Bishops: Why does the Roman Catholic Church refuse to give a fitting funeral service with Mass when a child who hasn't been baptised yet dies, and especially when the intention of the parents was that they would "enrol" thir child into the Roman Catholic Church anyway?

When I consider what the Bishops have to say about IVF versus what they practice when a baby dies without being baptised, I cannot help but think how hypocritical their statements about the whole thing are. God is everyone's - not just God for the baptised. People who have lived less than a religious life are given a proper send-off when they die, simply because at some point, they had been baptised. A child who through no fault of his own has not been able to accomplish much in life and dies doesn't get the same treatment. Hypocrites.

B. Cachia

Jul 26th 2012, 13:53

What really infringes on human dignity is that in 2012 you still have people living in the Middle Ages.

Robert Agius

Jul 26th 2012, 13:52

"The IVF process involves methods which at times considers the person, who is still at the embryonic stage, to be merely a mass of cells which may be used, selected and dispensed with.'

or rephrased - which at times considers the mass of cells, which is still at the embryonic stage, to be merely a mass of cells which may be used, selected and dispersed with.

Convince me otherwise.

j brincat

Jul 26th 2012, 13:51

Now this really puts GonziPN in a quandry.

To appear as if the PN is a liberal party (when the whole world knows it is ultra conservative – look at the divorce issue) GonziPN wishes (JPO permitting, of course) to pass the long promised IVF bill before the next election.

A tight situation indeed as the bishops are dead set against IVF (what’s new, really?) and the PN with its ‘Regio et Patria’ tradition certainly do not wish to be at odds with the bishops and the clergy for obvious reasons (votes)!

As we aptly say in Maltese; ‘Il-hmar il-maghkus idur ghalih id-dubbien’.

But then you can’t have the cake and eat it!







(jb)

Charles Grixti

Jul 26th 2012, 13:50

How come this is only a problem in Malta?

One never hears of such 'non issues' in other lands, even ones with a very high Catholic population. The Bishops better shift their gears from the cells in a test tube to the more urgent needs of 'babies' that are past childhood and fight against the encroaching poverty and deprivation. It seems to me that the Church is only interested in foetuses stuck in the prenatal with little caring of what happens to these when they are adults and the affronts to human dignity that many have to face on a daily basis.

M Grima

Jul 26th 2012, 13:40

Dear bishops this is not the middle ages.

F. Scicluna

Jul 26th 2012, 13:37

Your Graces, you are right, but its not what you say, what you teach us according to our religion.What is important that the Prim Minister will stay there to the end. Its not important what agreement he makes as long that it will garantee his safe seat. Bless us all.

D Fava

Jul 26th 2012, 13:36

Dear bishops stop polluting the people's minds with misinformation with your medieval heresies.