Maltese migrants, a study in integration?
This might come as no surprise to those of you who follow my posts on a semi-regular basis, but I greet the results of the latest survey about migration with much scepticism.
The majority of Maltese, we are told, do not believe that migrants pose any threat to our way of life. Almost half, the results continue, do not think that there are too many refugees and migrants arriving in their communities. You can read all about it here: http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20120710/local/migrant-s-death-accused-granted-bail.428012.
As my grandmother used to say when faced with a fishy situation, “qual’cosa non quadra”.
Judging by what I see and hear around me every day, the above results are extremely mind-boggling. Without wanting to throw bad light on the UNHCR survey in any way, these two findings simply do not make sense. Not when you actually talk to the people in the street on a regular basis.
On the street, the collective voice is pretty strong and undivided: most people I speak to have an almost obsessive fear that the migrants are “too many” for Malta (whatever that may mean) and that they will change our culture and identity.
Like I said in one of my previous posts, most Maltese I know will happily and shamelessly declare that they are “most certainly not racist”. The problem is that they will always finish off with a “but”. And this is exactly what seems to have happened with this survey.
“We are not racist.”
“We do not think that they will steal our jobs.”
“We do not think they will affect our cultural identity.”
All very positive and encouraging results, you will agree. Then you move on to the “but” part of the survey.
“But they should pay taxes.” (What does that have to do with anything?)
“But they should change their ways to be more like us.”
“But they won’t settle successfully in Malta because of their different culture.”
The rest of the findings are certainly no cause for joy. Having half the population (46% to be precise) stoutly believe that a migrant can’t integrate in our society simply because of a “different culture” would be risible if only it didn’t reflect so shamefully on us.
The shame increases a thousand-fold when you consider that this is coming from a nation whose people emigrated to places like Australia, England and Canada in the 1960s.
All those migrants had no problem “settling successfully” in their new country, of course. Because the lifestyle in Qormi (to pick a place) in 1969 can’t have been too different from that in Soho, right? Or Melbourne. Or Toronto.
When the Maltese left our shores en masse, I’m pretty sure that the culture shock for them was as strong as it was for the people hosting them. And yet, somehow they managed, because if that’s what it takes to survive that is what you do.
And the host countries didn’t kick them out either, not on the basis of introducing cholesterol to the local cuisine through greasy pastizzi. Not even on the basis of taking precious jobs.
They weren’t even kicked out – and this is the most significant – on the basis that the mindset of the average Maltese paterfamilias (women didn’t count) four decades ago was likely to constitute a threat to that country’s significantly more sophisticated, democratic and evolved culture.
58% believe that migrants should “change their ways to be more like other Maltese citizens”. Again, because that is exactly what the Maltese migrants of yesteryear did, right?
Okay let’s cut the sarcasm here and shoot it like it is: older Maltese migrants typically constitute the most spectacular case of failing to “change their ways” to be more like the nationals of their host country.
We all have relatives in Canada/Australia/wherever and we have all experienced the phenomenon. The older generation – as opposed to the offspring who were born in the new country and who probably don’t think of themselves as anything but Canadian/Australian/whatever – remained very Maltese.
They remained attached to their small-village rituals, to their pastizzi, to their band clubs. They kept themselves to themselves and didn’t mingle much with the locals. You know, in case some bad habit rubbed off on them.
And yet, they were welcomed, they were given jobs and they were allowed to prosper.
Can’t we extend the same kindness to the migrants of the 21st century that we ourselves were extended in the previous one?
I have one last parting shot. Somehow, this worry that migrants won’t adapt to our culture doesn’t apply in the case of fair skinned migrants from the North. Especially if they happen to be female.
The song from folk group Brikkuni, L-Assedju ż-Żgħir, comes to mind: “Staqsejt għaliex ma daħħlunix. Ma weġbunix. U minnflok daħħlu lill-Olandiża.” (I asked why I wasn’t allowed in the club but received no reply – instead, they let the Dutch girl walk in.)
But we are not racist, of course.
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Joe Xuereb
Jul 16th 2012, 02:33
@CJohn Zammit (15th July 07:02). If you re-read my numerous comments you will understand, maybe, that I see the problem long-term. One and a half percent of whatever as you put it will increase in leaps and bounds which wont be redressed even if Maltese mamas and papas revert to having fourteen/fifteen kinds. Not recommended especially since it would equalise the balance at most rather than redress it.
As for: Neither spin, nor highfalutin, adjectivally dense syntax can possibly vitiate statistical evidence. Sew jgħidu, il-qaħba milli jkollha tagħtik. Pardon! No, scrap that.
@Andy Farrugia, in one of your comments (against the soldiers being charged with abuse of Mr. Mamadou Kamara, if I am not mistaken), you took somebody to task regarding hyperbole vis-a`-vis Adrian Vassallo way back when (re: the debilitating divorce debate at the time). The divorce issue was resolved with Mr. Vassallo still in situ. Oh well! I guess we all have to put up with things at times. Especially if we lived in Iran although at times, Malta does not lag far behind.
What do I know?! I haven't been to the dear damned place these last fifteen years. Is Cordina still in business? Is it now 95% Qatari money like our Shard here in London Town, tellingly designed along a Wren steeple but ten times hire to show who's in charge. Because Wren was of his time and Piano of his, so dont you forget it, Wren. Except that Wren has been around for four hundred years, and counting. And the Shard?! I understand that these ultra-modern buildings, have, like me, a sell-by date. And brewing coffee past ITS date is not worth bothering with unless one makes a fetish of drinking mud. Maybe CJohn Zammit could be our taster? Me, I like my coffee dense and gooey. Men can be like that too. The gooier, the more the substance even if as thick as two planks where it, substance, matters most. Me, filthy?!
Andy Farrugia
Jul 16th 2012, 09:11
Yes, Xuereb, and I confirm what I said about the obnoxious forms of abuse hurled at both Vassallos (MPs). One, Dr Adrian, was labelled with a barrage of nasty adjectives (Taleban, medieval, anti-diluvian, backward, etc.) and the other, Edwin by name, was described as a "bishop". So, yes, I stand by what I said with regards to the hypocrisy of certain people in seeing verbal abuse in one instance but not in another. Hope I have answered your question and am more than willing to embark on further skirmishes on the matter.
CJohn Zammit
Jul 15th 2012, 07:02
@Mr. Joe Xuereb
Stating that the 2000 irregular migrants, currently on the Island, amount to One-half-of-one percent of the population of Malta, fits neatly in the definition of "demographics". It is a statistically insignifant number.
Taken on a square kilometer basis, it amounts to less than six migrants per sq. km.
Neither spin, nor highfalutin, adjectivally dense syntax can possibly vitiate statistical evidence.
Andy Farrugia
Jul 15th 2012, 11:36
@CJohn Zammit
Your figure is MANIFESTLY incorrect. I call that spin.
CJohn Zammit
Jul 15th 2012, 19:44
Why don't you ;quote the correct figure?
I'll make it easy for you: 10,000 (ten thousand).
That would be 2.38% of the population -- statistically insignificant.
Try another adjective :)
Andy Farrugia
Jul 16th 2012, 19:27
@ CJohn Zammit
That figure appears closer to reality on the ground, but from your comfort zone in the vast prairies of Canada, it would still be statistically insignificant [adverb+ adjective]. The thing is that you fail to factor in this REVISED (another adjective, for good measure) figure with the population density of locals on these islands...ie. 1,200 per square kilometre. Now, it becomes at least 1,230 per square kilometre and many of us would have no problem with that. Thing is that, sooner or later, there must be a point (saturation?) beyond which we can accommodate neither deserving (genuine asylum seekers and I believe it is our duty to help them) nor undeserving cases. Is it so difficult for you to fathom this?
CJohn Zammit
Jul 17th 2012, 06:58
@Andy Farrugia
First, I should have added a question mark to that 10,000 figure. It was meant to be the upper limit of a wild guess.
As it turns out, according to a very reliable contact, in Malta, the actual figure is less than 2,000.
That said, it is nice to note that your concern is not so much about race, colour, or such; it's about the current density of the Island. Fair enough.
To address your concern about a saturation point, just take a look at the current building frenzy. It has been mentioned, several times online, that there are currently 65,000 empty buildings -- mostly flats -- on the market.
All these were built on speculation. The intended market is the foreign purchaser.
Assuming that the foreign buyer's household consists of mom & dad + 1 child (Maltese fertility rates are 1.5 children per female), and all these buyers were to come flooding in overnight, there would be an increase of over 46% of the current population.
But as can be seen, the authorities, such as MEPA, have no problem with that. If they had, they would not issue any building permits. New building permits are still being granted, meaning that, there is even more room than the 195,00 filling the current vacancies.
Obviously, the saturation point is not yet in sight.
Now, if an equal number of irregular immigrants were to make it to our shores, at say, 200 per boatload, on a weekly basis, it would take almost 19 years to reach that number (195,000).
Neither scenario is about to happen any time soon.
I suggest that your talents and skills will better serve humanity if you shift your focus from population density to human rights.
Enjoy your summer!
Andy Farrugia
Jul 17th 2012, 09:42
@ CJohn Zammit
Yes, I will enjoy my summer as best as possible, notwithstanding the fact that over here in tiny Malta, unlike the vast expansive spaces of your comfort zone, we are literally living on top of each each and the weather certainly doesn't help. Still, you continue to fudge and spin, providing figures and guesstimates (of both number of immigrants and vacant dwellings) according to what you call "very reliable contacts".....rather solid evidence that, I don't think. Your conjectures and pseudo-statistical projections are simply the result of someone "who will NEVER get it". As to how I should utilise my skills and talents (whatever they might be) to serve humanity and to uphold human rights, I certainly do not need any suggestions from those who are responsible for the mass murder of millions of unborn children on a yearly basis. BYE.
Joe Xuereb
Jul 14th 2012, 22:11
About this migration/integration thing - if only the popolin and those who lord it over them (some seem to but not quite enough - or maybe they do but a recent survey was reluctant to explore, and admit, and expose this) could get it into their heads that this is not about racism but about being practical. The way things are panning out - with small Malta burdened with the biggest 'bundle of joy' comparatively speaking - I often get the feeling their are darker forces militating against real solutions. I think it is a fact that many ARE coming over 'for the ride with the hope of a better life once the other end is reached. Things never go as planned. The far larger number of people who end up in Malta but have no reason to seek asylum, and they jolly well know this.......but young men can be very determined. What they are managing to do is hindering the process, and overburdening Administrations like ours and the implications of that for the Maltese people......this is felt as a threat by the Maltese, their morale is being undermined as it's affecting mine even though removed from the situation. Tempers flair, expletives fly so easily off the tongue in Malta especially, one of our specialities over and above pastizzi and imqared......this kind of anger by our soldiers should not be permitted BUT WE ARE HUMAN. Dealing with aggressive 'out of their mind' men requires extra restraining tactics. Accidents can happen. And if some accounts of the migrants' 'misbehaviour' is to be believed (and if they are I am sure they can be substantiated).....this makes me think; maybe the aggressive detainee is more likely to be the one who is not a bona fide refugee. It would be interesting to know, in the longer term after they had been processed, to know which category was aggressive and a trouble-maker, and which category was mild in attitude and grateful for whatever they received. The first aggressively impatient and nasty, the second genuinely hoping for a better life and safety. Derailment of the mind doesn't just happen. Often people bring it upon themselves by gross mismanagement of their lives, often through greed but always through ignorance. And we don't all have access to education, or the willingness to access it, or to want it. As you say, 'I want it all and I want it now'. And that includes wanting to be 'famous' when asked. What I term a hell on earth. Like no other.
Sign of the times down Safi way (pure my left foot! not with pots and pans flying, it ain't!). By the way, I have a bone to pick with you. Recently you have had recourse to regale us with that figure of speech that is hyperbole (at least once here on this blog and earlier today on the JPO & FD debacle). Hyperbole may, and usually is, effective but it does not mean that one can say banalities and hide behind it and get away with it. Not while I'm around they don't! The ball stops at whatever is said hyperBALLically or not. So no! I never would say that I'd prefer to live in some fanatical dictatorship. Now THAT'S what I'd call a faux pas that deserves no pitie`. Not from this one. If it is banal, it is banal with or without the 'ballsup'.
Andy Farrugia
Jul 15th 2012, 11:48
Xuereb, I would be grateful, given that I believe you have a bone to pick with me related to use of hyperbole and fanatical dictatorships, to be more candid and assist my failing memory by QUOTING what it was that got your goat so much. Once I see exactly what it is, I may either recant and apologise or else confirm and embark on a new skirmish. Regards.
Joe Xuereb
Jul 14th 2012, 14:56
Moderator, I should be grateful if you would kindly deem this comment fit for inclusion. Thank you.
@CJohn Zammit (12th July 18:58). Mr. Zammit the problems will come later. But first you have to familiarise yourself with something called demographics. To give you a broad hint, Malta's birth-rate is way down low and has started to show Northern trends with single motherhood. The newcomers, on the other hand, are prolific and one woman is never enough. Do you see what I am getting at?* In a comparatively short time, Maltese society will be like that we find on inner city Council estates, here in London.
@ Ms. Depares. I don't know about you but when speaking, say, to a Russian woman with colourful habits, or a man for that matter, I feel I can have a conversation with them however tenuous our connections. I can't explain it but there you are! One of those natural foibles I guess. It is even easier with an Italian or a Turk in spite of historical enmities. They're often bastardly of course and why not but interaction with them FEELS LESS OF A HURDLE. There's usually some commonality of sorts even if it is about Malta under siege. With someone from Mali, Zimbabwe there is the language barrier to overcome for a start. I speak to any number of people during the course of the day - white to black and any shade in between. Most white people respond normally but by no means all. Some black people respond positively, some sound overjoyed, but subtly, that a white person is speaking to them, thus acknowledging their presence. Yet other black people shy away, or dont respond at all with a sullen look. Are they being paranoid because they are not used to mingling with white people (blame the ghettoes for that). Maybe they are practising racism from their side of the fence? Maybe they had a bad-hair-day? Or maybe the have a problem carrying their country in what is essentially a white man's land. Nothing to do with me and there is sweet f. all that I can do about that anybody than I can help a young white woman with her eating disorder because she does not carry her extra kilos with pride.
The Maltese are not perfect, and especially not Romina Depares current blog? comment? We talk so easily of integration as if it were something that one can pick and choose, regardless. Chance would be a fine thing! It is not so simple. As humans we pick and choose, it is how we have evolved. We pick and choose in order to survive and nobody is immune. Many are known to make a show at integration for appearances sake the Maltese, and the boat-people because they see ANY contact as a vested interest because they are in a foreign land, they are very needy, angry and frustrated, frightened and rebellious. They will speak to anyone to ingratiate themselves and to tell their story. My first question to them would be where they came from, who facilitated the trip, why did they come? what did they hope to find? And if they fib, it matters not. Still interesting information and anyone used to dealing with people and their ways will know instantly if truth is coming one's way or whether it is a shaggy dog story. All leading questions of course because I can be a curious bastard if it means saving my skin. Of course all these questions get their answers when these people are processed before they are lead to the very necessary Detention Centres. No, the two main Parties are more busy trying, and failing miserably, to iron out their differences. That is their priority. Meanwhile the people are as divided right down the middle as ever. Although strangely, the pro-migrants faction seems to be on the ascendant according to a recent survey. Maybe not so strange after all. Maybe this is how a psyche evolves after a lifetime of strictly dualistic thinking (read indoctrination). And then we talk of integration when most dont know where 'ser jagħtu rashom'. Hence the sugared-almonds as above, followed by BUT.......
The sugared-almonds are not needed (what's this?! Carnival?!). And the buts, sans the but, could be plain straightforward reasoning. One with still not a whiff of racism in sight.
*In broad terms, this means that the population of black naturally born Maltese will reach such proportions - or they could be Russian or Japanese - all Maltese born and bred but with whatever ancestry. And this is OK since Malteseness is no weightier than merely being on Malta. Anybody born in Malta now and in the future will be Maltese. In time the original European Maltese will peter out. To be replaced by a totally different group, physically and facially. There is no guarantee that the name of the island, Malta will be retained and respected. The very name might survive in a footnote in a book nobody cares to read. Maltese history of yesteryear will mean nothing to the newcomers and even less to their children. Once these children reach school age, there may be some attempt at teaching them Maltese history but by whom? and to what end? Now personally, I would not like this to happen and would resist it even if through the odd comment here and there (in a few years I will not be of this earth in any case so in that sense, I am not particularly worried). Maybe people younger than myself do not grasp - for whatever reason - the implication of this situation as it is bound to map out into the future. Maybe they could consider this as desirable because colour is only skin-deep. Maybe they couldn't give a monkey's what happens as long as they are enjoying their youth, pay their rent/mortgage, go shopping and then some more (maybe a weekend break somewhere). And most important of all, their mobiles are adequately topped-up so they can test their friends with the latest in-joke. Can't win them all I guess!
Andy Farrugia
Jul 14th 2012, 17:38
Sign of the times, Xuereb, sign of the times. .
Regarding the younger generations and historical knowledge....that is a non-starter, Xuereb. Believe me. They simply cannot be bothered, they do not even consider History of ANYTHING as being a subject fit for their seriously atrophied heritage, attitude and lifestyle. Ask any few of the younger generation any kind of question dealing with dates, important personalities and they will STARE back at you as if you had suddenly appeared from Alpha Centauri. They are only interested in the here and now......."I wannit all and I wannit now, or else...." Or else what ? They'll stamp their feet, they'll holler and they'll call you all sorts of names. It is interesting to note that despite our great differences, Xuereb , and you jolly well know what I'm talking about, we can still find common ground though we have never met and are hardly likely to do so.
Sign of the times....what i refer to as our post-human, nihilistic era of rampant individualism, "political correctness" and moral, ethical, existential vacuity.....two complete strangers, like me and you, who have very little in common, but who are able to connect somehow because of a civilised attitude to life, a strong sense of our roots, an acceptance of diversity based on MUTUAL respect, not condescension or FAUX PITY. And we are not so easily taken in by the current discourse of multiculturalism (only worked out in the USA and Australia really, after the settlers devastated and annihilated the natives there...ask Frau Merkel about this), nor easily duped by the ad campaigns of intellectually challenged multi-national companies. Keep well, Xuereb.
Jonathan Camilleri
Jul 14th 2012, 09:43
Malcolm Waters projects that globalization and integration should ideally encompass an unconditional acceptance of other cultures, yet, it is quite a challenge to manage. For example, when I apply for jobs in Germany and Denmark, employers expect me to be familiar with their native language, because that is the language they conveniently speak at their place. It is the same with us Maltese, we are opting for convenience, since refugees are our guests, and, thus we expect them to abide by our cultural rules.
Is it fair? Well not totally, but we have always been stubborn bastards, haven't we? :)
CJohn Zammit
Jul 12th 2012, 18:58
Population of Malta: 420,000
Number of irregular migrants (according to what I can gather from online comments): less than 2000
Ratio of irregulars to population: less than One-half-of-one percent.
How such a miniscule, statistically insignificant number can possibly create a problem, is beyond my understanding.
Andy Farrugia
Jul 12th 2012, 19:27
How about looking at it this way CJohn Zammit: population density 1,200 people per square kilometre. As for the number of irregular migrants I believe your figure to be misleading; there have been unofficial sources claiming the figure to be closer to 10,000. But I stand to be corrected on this.
Jonathan Camilleri
Jul 14th 2012, 09:45
@Andy Farrugia There are way too many people and too many cars in Malta, even without the refugees. In fact I had suggested that land reclamation might be a temporary solution for this problem, and, it had been accepted by Joseph Muscat, Leader, Labour Party, and, also by the Office of the Prime Minister.
Andy Farrugia
Jul 14th 2012, 17:49
@ Jonathan Camilleri
Are you for real? Land reclamation? Have you perhaps been impressed by Palm Island and The World in Dubai? Do you know anything about how the Dutch went about the process -through the polders- and how many years it took them? And where, pray, do you propose to start with such a hare-brained scheme? And I really do not give a hoot if both leaders of our two main parties are silly enough to entertain such ideas? Have you perchance embarked on some mission of geographic cum land form engineering? Please, spare me such ridiculous suggestions and make your way safely back to Earth.
James McIntosh
Jul 15th 2012, 08:51
Do you REALLY believe all the official figures. Can you REALLY believe that none evades past the AFM patrols and sneak ashore undetected. You REALLY need to remove the mask from your eyes and look around the streets and see the proliferation of dark skinned people in every town and village, either just aimlessly hanging around in groups or working in the manual sector and lower wage jobs.
2000 immigrants, I don't think that is anywhere even close to the true figure, My guess would be that there in the region of 10,000 to 20,000 recent immigrants, and that IS a significant percentage, whether you agree or not, to integrate into a small island state.
Maria Borg
Jul 12th 2012, 16:32
The message given by Ms Desperados is crystal clear. Maltese people, be lumped by an increasingly and undetermined number of illegal/irregular immigrants inspite of our lack of resources including space and pop density and don't utter a "but" or else you're racist. And don't point out the obvious fact that we are already the country that receives proportionally the biggest number of asylum seekers in the world because that counts as a "but" and don't say the EU is racist because it does not want them bacause that is not comparing like with like.
And one more think, we are all guilty of the "murder" of that migrant. But don't even try to use the same logic in their case. Don't say that those do gooders who continue to encourage immigrants to cross the Mediterranean sea are guilty of the death of the thousands of migrants who die each year while trying to cross the Sea because that would also count as a "but".
Andy Farrugia
Jul 12th 2012, 16:21
@ Mr Kenneth Cassar.
THIS IS WHAT YOU ACTUALLY WROTE, and I will leave it up to readers to determine who is the more credible.
Kenneth Cassar says:
July 11, 2012 at 10:29 am
"Dear Mustafa’, yes, whenever there is a Maltese co-national drowning, we should give him or her a helping hand as well.
And no, dear Mustafa, charity does not necessarily have to begin at home.
Faced with the choice of either alleviating the hardships of a Maltese national, or saving a drowning foreigner, only a bigoted ignorant callous racist son of a bitch would do the former."
Franco Farrugia
Jul 11th 2012, 18:08
By the way, my credentials against racism should be well-known by all and sundry. Probably I am the only one here in this thread who for quite some time gave lessons at Hal-Far on behalf of a particular NGO interested in immigration, in the early years of their dropping in on us. So, following what Mr Cassar says, nobody can state facts more than I. These people remain 'people' like you and I. They deserve the respect as creatures of God, the same way we respect ourselves. Yet, they come to Malta illegally and there is no way anyone can change such facts! The government's policy re' detention is the correct one, in my view. More pressure should be put on the EU to help our country in this matter - and money does not help.
At the end of the day, the more illegal immigrants come in, the more the citizens in this country will be provoked into shows of racism!
Kenneth Cassar
Jul 12th 2012, 06:14
Giving lessons in Hal-Far does not make you some kind of expert on racist issues. In any case, I don't believe I called you racist.
Neville Borg
Jul 12th 2012, 15:17
May I just point out that travelling to a foreign country to apply for asylum is in no way, shape or form illegal. It is a fundamental human right as set out by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the Geneva Convention. Just because we choose to lock asylum seekers up for months on end, it doesn't follow that they are actually criminals.
On that note, there's been a lot of talk on this message board about why integrating migrants into the Maltese community is not possible/viable etc - surely the most glaring obstacle to the successful integration of asylum seekers is Malta's detention policy. Migrants are understandably reluctant to integrate into a community which has been gleefully complicit in their unjust incarceration. It is bizarre to lock people up for months on end for no apparent reason then to expect them to fall over themselves with gratitude once they are released.
Andy Farrugia
Jul 12th 2012, 17:39
@ Neville Borg
You're being a tad disingenuous, either unwittingly or wilfully. There are clear differences between those who deserve asylum and others, but you simply decided to generalise about irregular migrants. In any case what would you suggest? Allow free, unrestricted and unsupervised entry and residence to all comers? Why don't you try to do so yourself in the USA, Canada or Australia and see where that will get you without the required documentation? Still, how would these people be able to survive without lodgings, basic necessities and the possibility of earning a livelihood? And you don't appear to be too much bothered about the problems of population density? You also mention integration - do you really understand the meaning of integration and assimilation? WHO needs to integrate (and assimilate) within the host community, while maintaining, as is everyone's right , their individual characteristics? Please try to be concrete and pragmatic in providing answers and it might also help to come clean about your professional role within particular agencies.
J Degabriele
Jul 11th 2012, 16:35
Maltese people emigrated in great numbers in the past because they were helped legally and financially by the colonial government of the time. They did not impose themselves willy-nilly on other countries.
And yes, too many are coming over! Aren't we already over-populated? That's what EVERYBODY used to say but now somehow it's all right if several thousands more from any OTHER country dump themselves on top of us!
Kenneth Cassar
Jul 11th 2012, 18:42
Yes, J Degabriele, true, we do have an overpopulation problem. But when faced with the choice of people suffering torture or death, and overpopulation, I will go for overpopulation. Yes, I'm different that way.
And before you tell me that not all immigrants are escaping persecution, well, one has to study each case to determine who deserves protection, and who may be sent back.
Andy Farrugia
Jul 11th 2012, 19:11
@ Kenneth Cassar
Let me see if it is possible to find some common ground between intelligent, reasonable, decent people albeit they might have certain differences.
I agree with you that "one has to study each case to determine who deserves protection, and who may be sent back". This is why a HUMANE detention procedure is necessary to distinguish between those who require assistance and those who may have to be repatriated. You appear not to have any problems with repatriation.
You also said that given the choice between people suffering abuse, torture and death , and overpopulation you will always go for overpopulation. In general terms I agree with you, BUT given that Malta has one of densest population rates worldwide, IS THERE a LIMIT beyond which we simply cannot go? To put it bluntly: what would you prefer, overpopulation to the point of devastating and annihilating Malta and its people (thus reducing to nil the chances of helping and aiding refugees) or maintaining a healthy equilibrium between a friendly and thriving Maltese nation and support for refugees?
Kenneth Cassar
Jul 12th 2012, 06:12
@ Andy Farrugia:
"This is why a HUMANE detention procedure is necessary to distinguish between those who require assistance and those who may have to be repatriated. You appear not to have any problems with repatriation".
Yes, if there will be a detention procedure, it must be humane. We have failed in that respect. In any case, a detention procedure is not at all necessary. After all, even people accused of murder are given bail.
"...BUT given that Malta has one of densest population rates worldwide, IS THERE a LIMIT beyond which we simply cannot go?"
Of course there must be a limit, but we have certainly not reached it yet. If you disagree, perhaps you will give us a number for that limit?
"...what would you prefer, overpopulation to the point of devastating and annihilating Malta and its people...or maintaining a healthy equilibrium between a friendly and thriving Maltese nation and support for refugees?"
Obviously I would go for the latter, but we are far from reaching the former yet, despite the hysterical exaggerations of some people with hidden and not so hidden racist agendas. Please don't fall for their deceiptful propaganda.
Andy Farrugia
Jul 12th 2012, 11:45
@ Kenneth Cassar
Just a few queries re your vague replies:
a. in an earlier reply to J Degabriele you said : "one has to study each case to determine who deserves protection, and who may be sent back". I took the last part (and who may be sent back) to mean that you were not in principle against repatriation. Have you recanted, as there is no mention of this in your answer?
b. you appear certain that we haven't yet reached a limit regarding population density - "certainly not" - and yet, though you seem so sure of this and accept that "there MUST be a limit", you ask me to provide numbers. Sorry, but you have made the claim that " we have certainly NOT reached that limit" so it is up to you to enlighten us about numbers.
c. Again, you state that we should all be wary of exaggerations, hidden agendas and deceitful propaganda as well as baldy stating that "we are far from reaching" overpopulation to the point of devastation and annihilation. Will you only change your mind when it is already too late to do anything about it? No wonder I had earlier asked you WHY you hate Malta and Maltese culture so much and WHAT may have possibly contributed to this nihilistic mindset!
Have a good day!
Franco Farrugia
Jul 11th 2012, 12:08
There can NEVER be integration. The reason is too simple: real integration can NEVER be done in a forced manner. Real integration takes place without anyone being conscious of it. We cannot have some bright spark who seems to be the only one who does not miss the point, saying one fine morning: Let's integrate!
Malta is far too small and limited for this.
And then, 'integrate' with whom? Go to any street where there are buildings filled with illegal immigrants who are out of the detention system and see the utter and absolute derelict-ness of the street involved! We need to improve matters in our country - not make things even worse than they already are.
Kenneth Cassar
Jul 11th 2012, 15:12
Integration is when minorities are not dumped into slums, but given the means and opportunity to mingle with the rest of the population. And one doesn''t have to be some bright spark to understand this.
J Degabriele
Jul 11th 2012, 16:30
@K.Cassar
What do you mean exactly by giving means and opportunity?
Kenneth Cassar
Jul 11th 2012, 18:38
@ J Degabriele:
I mean real jobs (not cheap-labour) and decent subsidised housing similar to the schemes for single mothers, for a start.
B. Cachia
Jul 11th 2012, 23:02
Kenneth, people aren't "given jobs". Either they are qualified and fit to perform them or they aren't.
Kenneth Cassar
Jul 13th 2012, 06:35
@ B Cachia:
Only the self-employed are not given jobs. People don't have an automatic right to work in the private sector or in government. A call for applications together with an exam and/or interview is always required.
pat muscat
Jul 11th 2012, 10:22
Sweeping statesmen and generalizations wan't help the situation. We are to small to absorb illegal immigrants by their thousands; we should handle and care for a hundred or so bona fide refugees, but for the rest its too much of a burden. I admire those, especially Maltese who help Africans in their country by building schools, roads, and other heavy infrastructure; I admire even more those who invest in and not exploit these Africans countries. A relative of mine was recently in Guinea; a new stainless steel fish market was built in this country by the Japanese , with the proviso that the Japanese fishing fleet is allowed to fish. After four years the local fisherman were reduced to poverty, there were no more fish to catch!
Helping Africans must be a long term vision and we should start at their home because they have the land and resources to develop their country; the rest is simply 'inraqghu il-pannu bil-qara hamra' to make us feel good about our selves!
Franco Farrugia
Jul 10th 2012, 22:55
What a very silly argument, to equate Maltese migrating abroad - legally and they were invited to go, by the way! - with illegal immigration the way we have it at the moment. How terribly silly, idiotic and stupid, especially coming from a supposedly learned lady!
Kenneth Cassar
Jul 11th 2012, 10:18
You miss the point completely. This is about perceived threats and clash of cultures, and not about legal vs illegal.
Andy Farrugia
Jul 11th 2012, 10:51
@ Kenneth Cassar
I just wonder who is actually missing the point completely! This is about survival, sustainability, the rule of law, the fact that the UN and the UNHCR are unfit for purpose, the fact that Africa is BIG, real BIG, and that Malta is tiny, nay puny. That's what all this is about. It is also about surviving notwithstanding the fact that some well-heeled "bleeding-hearts" constantly try to deride, vilify, and ridicule our way of life. Must be angst-ridden, frustrated, dysfunctional misfits.
Kenneth Cassar
Jul 11th 2012, 15:10
@ Andy Farrugia:
You make several points that could make an interesting discussion, but this is not what the blog article is about. So it seems that you too have missed the point completely.
Kenneth Cassar
Jul 11th 2012, 15:16
Oh, and by the way, Ramona did not equate anyone with anyone else. Maybe that's why some people thought her article, which was all about perceived threats and clash of cultures, was terribly silly, idiotic and stupid.
Sometimes prejudices make one jump to conclusions and imagine things that were neither written nor implied.
Robert Borg
Jul 10th 2012, 20:32
Ramona,
I do not live in Malta so I can't say with any level of certainty, so I have to rely on you for an answer: are these immigrants willing to assimilate into your culture do they obey your laws do they contribute anything positive to your culture and country. I think to use Maltese immigrants to other countries in the past might not be the best example to make your point. My father immigrated from Hamrun to the US in the early 1950's, he assimilated to our culture here and eventually became a US citizen, never forgetting his origins, you see I was taught my heritage I am very proud to be of Maltese decent. I guess my point is of all of the Maltese people who immigrated here they all became part of our society and culture no matter how much of a culture shock there was when coming from, lets say, Hamrun to Detroit! I hear many anecdotal stories of the illegal immigrants to Malta of not obeying the laws or wanting any part of your society .Forgive me for bringing that up because I am not sure if the stories are true. My real fear though, is the very special Maltese culture being swallowed up by immigrants who have expectations of their own and might not care of the Maltese people. The recent death of the immigrant is unfortunate, BUT(there is your But that you infamously reference) if you fight back, bite, and kick things happen. I have read articles and letters to the editor with people saying the soldiers should of been trained better, should of had tasers. Should of , could of; PLEASE enough already of the armchair quarterbacking! I f you weren't there don't second guess how the situation was handled Some people become so violent when restraints are attempted that even tasers do not work. Yes I like so many of the Maltese citizens you spoke with, I fear that your way of life is threatened and that does not make me a racist. Also, as of your example of fair skinned people from the north in Europe,its probably safe to say their culture is much like your own, different in many ways but similar in many ways. I will go out on a limb with an assumption, I bet they do not want to change the Maltese way of life, I could be wrong.
Kenneth Cassar
Jul 11th 2012, 10:19
Dear Mr Borg,
You have raised a lot of points that I will try to address as briefly as possible.
You ask whether immigrants are willing to assimilate into our culture or whether they obey our laws or contribute anything positive.
Regarding assimilation, I would think that some do, but in any case, they don't have to. When you say "our culture", do you mean - at one end - the paternalistic, sexist, male-dominated, insular, Catholic (in outward appearance and not necessarily in behaviour) culture, or do you mean - at the other end - the egalitarian, secular, humanist, liberal and atheist culture? (there are of course shades in between). I ask because I form part of the latter, we're growing in number, we're Maltese, and we're not leaving anytime soon.
So when you wish for immigrants to assimilate in our culture, do you mean that you wish them to become liberal humanist atheists? I suspect that you don't. So how about giving people the freedom to make their own choices as long as they are in line with the law? Which brings me to your second question.
You ask whether immigrants obey our laws. Do Maltese citizens obey our laws? I would think that the majority do. The same goes for immigrants. For those that don't, there is the law and law enforcement.
You ask whether immigrants contribute anything positive. Some do, and more would be willing, given the opportunity. Of course, to answer your question in more detail, I would need to know what you mean by "positive". What's positive to you might not be positive to me. In any case, over here I believe we have a serious problem of Maltese citizens abusing social benefits (not only do they not contribute anything positive, they actually constitute a problem for the rest of us), and I have yet to hear calls for their forced exile.
Regarding the case of the recent killing of an immigrant (he was killed - that much is obvious - all that has to be determined in court is by who), I won't go into much details since I'd rather wait for the court case and the inquiry to be concluded. I will only remind you that the immigrant was found handcuffed inside a van, and the autopsy revealed that he sustained several kicks to the groin area and the lower back. I'll leave it up to you to decide whether - if the injuries were produced by the detention officers or the army - only necessary force was used.
Finally, please don't form your opinion about immigrants from comments in the online newspapers. Usually, the most noisy and vociferous are the least informed and/or most prejudiced.
Kenneth Cassar
Jul 11th 2012, 15:29
Dear Mr Borg,
You have raised a lot of points that I will try to address as briefly as possible.
You ask whether immigrants are willing to assimilate into our culture or whether they obey our laws or contribute anything positive.
Regarding assimilation, I would think that some do, but in any case, they don't have to. When you say "our culture", do you mean - at one end - the paternalistic, sexist, male-dominated, insular, Catholic (in outward appearance and not necessarily in behaviour) culture, or do you mean - at the other end - the egalitarian, secular, humanist, liberal and atheist culture? (there are of course shades in between). I ask because I form part of the latter, we're growing in number, we're Maltese, and we're not leaving anytime soon.
So when you wish for immigrants to assimilate in our culture, do you mean that you wish them to become liberal humanist atheists? I suspect that you don't. So how about giving people the freedom to make their own choices as long as they are in line with the law? Which brings me to your second question.
You ask whether immigrants obey our laws. Do Maltese citizens obey our laws? I would think that the majority do. The same goes for immigrants. For those that don't, there is the law and law enforcement.
You ask whether immigrants contribute anything positive. Some do, and more would be willing, given the opportunity. Of course, to answer your question in more detail, I would need to know what you mean by "positive". What's positive to you might not be positive to me. In any case, over here I believe we have a serious problem of Maltese citizens abusing social benefits (not only do they not contribute anything positive, they actually constitute a problem for the rest of us), and I have yet to hear calls for their forced exile.
Regarding the case of the recent killing of an immigrant (he was killed - that much is obvious - all that has to be determined in court is by who), I won't go into much details since I'd rather wait for the court case and the inquiry to be concluded. I will only remind you that the immigrant was handcuffed inside a van, and the autopsy revealed that he sustained several kicks to the groin area and the lower back. I'll leave it up to you to decide whether - if the injuries were produced by the detention officers or the army - only necessary force was used.
Finally, please don't form your opinion about immigrants from comments in the online newspapers. Usually, the most noisy and vociferous are the least informed and/or most prejudiced.
Andy Farrugia
Jul 11th 2012, 15:43
@ Kenneth Cassar
"Finally, please don't form your opinion about immigrants from comments in the online newspapers. Usually, the most noisy and vociferous are the least informed and/or most prejudiced."
Might this perchance apply to you, given that on just this single thread you've already had SIX postings out of a total of 14?
I would just like some replies to the following questions:
a. How MANY more migrants can we hope to accommodate on these islands where there are 1,200 people per square kilometre?
b. Why is it that when people express some concern about this problem they are instantly branded as racists?
c. Are you in favour of people trafficking?
d. Do you really believe that most of these migrants are refugees rather than economic migrants?
e. Do you actually believe that most of them cross the Med in those flimsy dinghies in open sea in this heat? Have you ever been on a boat at this time of year?
Finally a personal question which you may decoide to ignore completely:
Why do you hate Maltese culture so much? What went wrong with your upbringing?
Kenneth Cassar
Jul 11th 2012, 18:50
@ Andy Farrugia:
"Might this perchance apply to you, given that on just this single thread you've already had SIX postings out of a total of 14?"
Not at all. I reserve my posts to a few blogs, and don't fill each page on The Times with spiteful comments against immigrants at every opportunity.
Now for your questions:
a. How MANY more migrants can we hope to accommodate on these islands where there are 1,200 people per square kilometre?
Ah, this question has been asked before. I'll answer it the same way, with my one question: How many would YOU suggest? Your answer will probably be very revealing.
b. Why is it that when people express some concern about this problem they are instantly branded as racists?
I can only speak for myself. I don't call people racists just for expressing concern about immigration. If you have someone else in mind, you may ask him or her.
c. Are you in favour of people trafficking?
Definitely not.
d. Do you really believe that most of these migrants are refugees rather than economic migrants?
I don't have the statistics. I can only say that not all migrants would be refugees.
e. Do you actually believe that most of them cross the Med in those flimsy dinghies in open sea in this heat? Have you ever been on a boat at this time of year?
It doesn't make a difference whether they make the whole voyage in a dinghy, or whether they are dumped mid-way from a ship. The end-result is the same.
f. Finally a personal question which you may decoide to ignore completely: Why do you hate Maltese culture so much? What went wrong with your upbringing?
I don't hate all of Maltese culture. Just some of it. And no, nothing went wrong with my upbringing. Has something gone wrong with yours?
Kenneth Cassar
Jul 11th 2012, 18:51
@ Andy Farrugia:
"Might this perchance apply to you, given that on just this single thread you've already had SIX postings out of a total of 14?"
Not at all. I reserve my posts to a few blogs, and don't fill each page on The Times with spiteful comments against immigrants at every opportunity.
Now for your questions:
a. How MANY more migrants can we hope to accommodate on these islands where there are 1,200 people per square kilometre?
Ah, this question has been asked before. I'll answer it the same way, with my one question: How many would YOU suggest? Your answer will probably be very revealing.
b. Why is it that when people express some concern about this problem they are instantly branded as racists?
I can only speak for myself. I don't call people racists just for expressing concern about immigration. If you have someone else in mind, you may ask him or her.
c. Are you in favour of people trafficking?
Definitely not.
d. Do you really believe that most of these migrants are refugees rather than economic migrants?
I don't have the statistics. I can only say that not all migrants would be refugees.
e. Do you actually believe that most of them cross the Med in those flimsy dinghies in open sea in this heat? Have you ever been on a boat at this time of year?
It doesn't make a difference whether they make the whole voyage in a dinghy, or whether they are dumped mid-way from a ship. The end-result is the same.
f. Finally a personal question which you may decide to ignore completely: Why do you hate Maltese culture so much? What went wrong with your upbringing?
I don't hate all of Maltese culture. Just some of it. And no, nothing went wrong with my upbringing. Has something gone wrong with yours?
Kenneth Cassar
Jul 11th 2012, 19:04
@ Andy Farrugia:
And regarding your first question, when we reach your suggested threshold (that is, if you will reply), what do we do when we reach it? Let them drown?
Kenneth Cassar
Jul 11th 2012, 19:19
@ Andy Farrugia:
And pray tell me, in what way, and about whom am I prejudiced? Please back your answer with evidence.
Andy Farrugia
Jul 11th 2012, 20:03
@ Kenneth Cassar
And pray tell me, in what way, and about whom am I prejudiced? Please back your answer with evidence."
How about calling people "son of a bitch" on another blog?
Kenneth Cassar
Jul 12th 2012, 11:38
Note to moderator: As a means of exercising my right of reply, and to avoid unnecessary waste of time in libel action, I am sending you the following reply which I expect to be published.
_______________________________________________
@ Andy Farrugia:
"How about calling people "son of a bitch" on another blog?"
Ah, back to quote mining, are we? Well, here's the whole quote of what I actually wrote, so that people get the whole context. What I actually wrote was:
"Faced with the choice of either alleviating the hardships of a Maltese national, or saving a drowning foreigner, only a bigoted ignorant callous racist son of a bitch would do the former".
Now tell me. How does that show prejudice when I wasn't referring to anyone in particular? And wouldn't you agree with my statement, or would you rather let the foreigner drown?
B. Cachia
Jul 10th 2012, 20:14
Ramona, at the end of the day it's about culture and religion. The Maltese who emigrated legally to Western countries had no major barriers to integration and were absorbed into the local community in a couple of generations. Those who emigrated to North Africa never integrated and eventually left, along with other Europeans.
Islam and the West are very different cultures that coexist only with great difficulty. I don't know of many countries or even regions where Christians and Muslims manage to live side by side without conflict. I hope Malta will be the exception, but I must admit I'm sceptical.
Mr Alan Zahra
Jul 11th 2012, 07:57
Well Germany is one country which has a well integrated muslim turkish community. Were it not for them most crucial jobs won't get done due to low pay and danger associated with it, jobs like handling of nuclear waste and other hazardous material, construction work and care for the elderly.
If we're really worried about migrants taking over our jobs then we should worry more about the Nordic europeans landing local IT and managerial posts (a few thousands scandinavian, british and dutch nationals) than the few hundreds black migrants willing to take jobs no Maltese seem to want today - construction work and garbage collection. The real issue is skin deep, we're more than willing to open our gates to blondes then to blacks.
In the U.S. it is estimated that migrants contribute significantly to the economy (I think it's 11%), not by doing menial jobs but by setting up companies. Google co-founded by Sergei Brin son of Russian migrants, now employing more than 20K US citizens. Yahoo was a start-up by an Chinese immigrant. Indira Nooyi (indian immigrant) saved Pepsi from irrelevancy when she was named CEO. Vikram Pandit Indian CEO for citygroup. African Francisco D'Souza ventured beyond U.S. soil with Cognizant. Literally the list is endless.
In a future economy where global GDP is expected to be dominated by China and India (taking 50% by 2030) it's crucial to have cultural ties with other non-western nations. The chinese indian, or muslim immigrant you abhor today could be a significant key player in a maltese company in the future desperately making headway in an Asian or emerging African market, giving more opportunities to local employees. Believe me I'm recounting this from experience working in Libyan and East asian markets were trust in business is easily achieved between natives.
C Demanuele
Jul 11th 2012, 08:25
nobody is claiming that immigrants coming to our shores are Muslim just because of their skin colour or their culture. though culture and religion are interconnected, there is still a great difference between the two.
let us hope that we will really manage to accept each other's ideas and ways of living. forsi xi darba naslu xi mkien.
B. Cachia
Jul 11th 2012, 23:14
@ Alan Zahra: The Turks in Germany constitute some 3% of the population in a large country that is relatively thinly populated (compared to Malta). One would hardly call that a situation where Islam and Christianity are coexisting. Malta appears set to face a much larger influx than that, with Muslim immigrants making up a very substantial part of the population over the next few decades. Maybe it will all be a great success, maybe it won't. I'm not sure we should be taking that risk.
As for the kind of immigrants you mention, that set up cutting-edge businesses and so on, I think that's a completely different type of (legal) immigration that few would object to. And the other jobs that you claim no one wants to do would also get done, but the market would have to offer higher wages for them than it does currently. This is basic economics.
@ C Demanuele: I'm not sure it will be up to us. Islam is a difficult religion to coexist with, mainly because it has such a strong political dimension, and has a world view in which all non-Muslims are essentially second class persons, although they may be tolerated. In any case, I'm not sure we should be just taking the risk and hoping for the best. It's our children's future we're talking about.
Please choose the reason of your report below: