Straight talking on gay rights
Malta Gay Rights Movement coordinator Gabi Calleja. Photo: Matthew Mirabelli
Leading gay rights activist Gabi Calleja speaks of the emergence of a gay vote, describes civil partnership legislation as a “deal-breaker” and warns that homophobic attacks are likely to increase. Bertrand Borg reports.
Malta Gay Rights Movement coordinator Gabi Calleja may pepper her conversation with coy smiles, but behind the self-effacing exterior lies a woman unwilling to minceher words.
“I think we can now speak of agay vote. And we’ve reached apoint where the LGBT [lesbian, gay bisexual and transgender] community is fed up,” she says at themention of seemingly elusive civil partnership legislation.
“More couples are living openly nowadays, and they want to consolidate their relationship legally. These people are unwilling to wait any longer. And for them, this could be a deal-breaker when it comes to their vote.”
A proposed cohabitation Bill, yet to be made public, is expected to include provision for same-sex civil partnerships, though Ms Calleja is keeping her feet planted firmly on the ground.
“We still haven’t seen the Bill, which to me indicates it’s not exactly in line with what we’d like. If it were, I’d imagine the government would have been glad to show it to us!”
Ms Calleja’s decade-long struggle to promote gay rights in Malta was recently acknowledged by the US State Department, which chose to make her one of 11 women worldwide to receive an International Women of Courage Award.
She brushes off the award, saying a part of her “felt embarrassed” to be given the award. “I felt unworthy to a certain extent, especially since there are so many countries around the world where it’s physically dangerous to defend LGBT rights. But the award is good for raising the profile of LGBT issues,” she muses.
Minutes before the interview, word had filtered through from the law courts that two young assailants had been fined €500 each forhaving assaulted two teenage girls in Ħamrun.
Widely reported as a homophobic hate crime – something the court found was unproven – the case had sparked sufficient outcry for the government to move proposals on hate crime legislation.
Those amendments are set to be discussed within a parliamentary sub-committee next week, Ms Calleja says.
A proposed gender identity Bill is also in the pipeline. The last Ms Calleja heard, the Attorney General had raised some objections to the MGRM-proposed text.
“I’m hoping we’ll get a second meeting with the Justice Ministry before the Bill is presented to Parliament. But I don’t know where we’re at with it.” With civil partnership proposals, hate crime amendments and a gender identity Bill all at various stages of development, LGBT concerns have never been so legislatively prominent.
“It’s quite exciting in a way,” Ms Calleja admits. “But on the other hand, until we actually get these laws enacted, doubts are goingto remain.”
She feels more work is needed to promote a culture of equalityand acceptance within schools, noting that the proposed national curriculum framework – yet to be adopted – makes no mention of homophobic bullying.
“To me, that indicates there’s no real drive to address the issue at a policy level,” she sighs.
Gozo Bishop Mario Grech recently inflamed passions when he insisted that “a family is a relationship between man and woman, based on marriage”.
The Bishop’s words may have done the Church’s cause more harm than good, antagonising several people with its extremity, Ms Calleja suggests.
Not that a rapprochement between the LGBT movement and Catholic Church was on the cards, she adds.
“While the Church continues to insist homosexuality is a disorder and that LGBT people are somehow wrong or sinful, I can’t see any way in which we could come to some form of agreement with the Church.”
The struggle for an LGBT-equal society is far from over, but Ms Calleja’s eyes glisten with conviction.
“Anyone arguing against equality is already on the wrong sideof history.
“The more time passes, the faster the pace of change. It’s just a matter of time.”
Popular Stories
Old buses, drivers to return
Former Judge Ray Pace found dead
Updated: Minister apologises for...
Three new Nationalist MPs elected –...
Where’s Everybody staff is given notice
Updated - Director of Prisons submits...
Update 3 - Woman trapped as car crashes...
Revealed...the face of a Maltese woman...
PL reacts as PN labels Franco Debono's...
In Discussion
Old buses, drivers to return
Updated: Minister apologises for...
PL reacts as PN labels Franco Debono's...
Updated - Director of Prisons submits...
Enemalta seeking minimum five year gas...
Protected birds shot and trapped as...
Mario de Marco, Zammit Dimech concede,...
PN postpones salaries as financial...
Updated - PM's offer to Opposition MPs...
105 Comments
Post comment
Please sign in or create your Account to post comments.
Maria Borg
Jun 13th 2012, 21:17
"Anyone arguing against equality is already on the wrong side of history"
Some things will always be on the wrong side of history no matter how many countries legalize them, just like abortion. There can be no equality between right and wrong.
Norman E Grech
Jun 13th 2012, 09:44
Gaby!!!
Stop calling anyone who does not agree with you 100% a homophobic cos you're losing a lot of points!
Valerie Borg
Jun 13th 2012, 06:28
To Joe Fenech
in your words..... It might not, but it's surely not a natural environment. It also create embarrassment to the kid - you might say "but, that's society's problem". The answer to that will be "on no it isn't".
Again i dare you to come and live in my home and see how embarrassed my child is. You go ahead and assume that this embarrassment is going to happen but you will find the opposite. The confidence my child portrays and the love that she has from 2 parents i can reassure your assuming mind that she is not embarrassed. The only discrimination we have ever experienced here in Malta is by the government. That is my own experience i am not talking on behalf of anyone else. You may be surprised but my daughter has been treated like any other child at school in the playground wherever she goes. It's only ignorant and hateful people who can make comments on here who really have the problem. Please tell me what are you afraid of. Until you have walked a mile in other people shoes can you judge me! My sexuality has got nothing to do with how i bring up my child and who are you to say otherwise, you don't even know the strength it takes to stand by who you are and be the minority not the majority. People are taught to hate they aren't born haters.
Joe Fenech
Jun 13th 2012, 11:00
That is the usual defensive, selfish talk we get. No one is telling you not to be a lesbian but you have to choose what you want in life like people who embrace a religious order do. Keep kids out of it. A daddy and a daddy and a mummy and a mummy IS NOT natural. Parenting goes beyond just living with 2 people. Social services should intervene and place that poor child with a proper NATURAL family.
Haters? What about you? Shall I call you a pervert then because you want to impose nature's perversion on to your kid?
Joe Fenech
Jun 13th 2012, 11:01
If you think your child is not embarrassed, it means you don't understand your child. Wait till he grows up and realises how other families live. It will not only embarrass him but break him psychologically.
Valerie Borg
Jun 13th 2012, 15:13
Im not a hater Joe although you do push it. You talk like you know both sides of these argumants. A lot of assumptions are made, like you don't know if my child has a dad ( im not going to let you in on that one) keep assuming that we are selfish and dont think of the rights of our child. I know whats right for my child not you or anyone else. You have no right to tell me or vise versa whats right for your child (assuming you have children) or mine. Therefore keep assuming and believing in what you think. Just because a woman and a man together can make babies doesn't make them good parents! because it's done the natural way! Our children are the proof of that. Im not the one with the problem you are as you seem to have a problem with why i chose to have a child. Can i ask you the same, again assuming you are a parent, Why did you choose to become a parent. Did you actually think about what it entails to have a child? You'd probably find our answers to this question the same. But im the one forcing my sexuality onto my child. Just because you are the majority doesn't mean it's better. I keep saying come and stay in my home and see how deprived and horrible life my daughter is living? By the way i don't hate, im not with a woman because i hate men. i teach my daughter to love others not to hate. My daughter will certainly grow up not judging others like you do thats for sure. I live my life happily and that's all that matters.
Joe Fenech
Jun 13th 2012, 15:38
Valerie Borg
You mentioned the word hater not me.
If you have a child, there is obviously a dad.
I've heard the argument "Just because a woman and a man together can make babies doesn't make them good parents! " many times. You're right, but that's another argument. People who are not good together split up (a mono parental family or a recomposed family is better than nothing). When parents for whatever reason are not good parents the social services will deal with the issue.
"My sexuality has got nothing to do with how i bring up my child and who are you to say otherwise, you don't even know the strength it takes to stand by who you are and be the minority not the majority."
But it does have to do with YOUR CHILD! You're bring him up in an UNNATURAL! You can't go against nature - THAT IS FACT not a presumption or an opinion. A child is dependent on adults as a model and that is why nature has relied on a man and a woman for procreation. A married or cohabiting couple cannot be compared with a simple friendship between 2 people of the same sex. What model is a women loving a women. After all they say that "an apple doesn't fall from the tree
And well done for your 'open-mindedness'. You confront people who are exposing logic and fact by calling them haters and ignorants (you probably even assume that I'm a religious person too and that I live in some derelict Maltese village!!). You deserve a PhD Honoris Causa from l-Universita tal-Qroqq for that!
Gerry Cowie
Jun 12th 2012, 19:33
What on earth is a "gay vote"? Surely everybody has a vote whatever their race, colour, creed or sexuality!
Is a "straight vote" cast by a straight person?
Ramon Casha speaks of countries where "they all seem happy" with the situation. The word "seems" would suggest that perhaps Ramon is guessing here!
Mike Abbot
Jun 13th 2012, 13:54
do you know anything at all about politics???
ok, for you Gerry. The gay vote.
A sizable body of people, in this case unified by the fact they are discriminated against when it comes to legally recognizing the union of a gay couple, who may vote one way or the other based on polices put forward by political parties.
Additionally, that voting body is not exclusive to gay people - it also includes those of us that feel that a union of 2 people should be recognized equally, regardless of what gender or sexual orientation is involved.
clear now?
P Bonnici
Jun 12th 2012, 17:40
Gabi, thank you for your hard work and dedication.
Joe Fenech
Jun 12th 2012, 16:32
What's the big fuss. Gays have been round since the dawn of man. I'm not saying "arrest them" or "hang them" but that's were it all ends. BE NORMAL ! I
We've probably had more open gay friends than any of those who've lived their life in Malta and have called me "closed minded", but gay people abroad are normally mature, professional, discrete and live a normal life without any need of buffoonery, gay prides, manifestos and crap. All that is for a perverse, out-dated hippy lot.
All this is just Malta panicking. It is realising that it is stuck in the past and now wants to catch up on things that happened 40 years ago . HIPPY DAYS ARE OVER!
Paolo Bugeja
Jun 14th 2012, 22:20
Are you serious?
This is gay pride london - http://www.pridelondon.org/ (2012 not 1972)
This is gay pride amsterdam - http://www.amsterdamgaypride.nl/ (2012 not 1972)
This is gay pride paris - http://www.gaypride.fr/ (2012 not 1972)
and so on and so forth. Every city has gay pride and thousands go. Malta is actually one of the places where gay life is least advertised. Gaby and the rest of MGRM are trying to promote such. And if you think that gay prides are the thing of 40 years ago, I would recommend to keep abreast of what's happening in the world. Before passing comments, kindly check your facts.
Henry S Pace
Jun 12th 2012, 16:20
' Gozo Bishop Mario Grech recently inflamed passions when he insisted that “a family is a relationship between man and woman, based on marriage”.
'Marriage was established by God. "No ideology can erase from the human spirit the certainty that marriage
exists solely between a man and a woman, who by mutual personal gift, proper and exclusive to themselves,
tend toward the communion of their persons. In this way, they mutually perfect each other, in order to
cooperate with God in the procreation and upbringing of new human lives." This would seem to imply that
same-sex couples cannot develop an enriching relationship, or morally build a lesbian-led family using
artificial insemination, or a male gay-led couple who adopt children.
Henry S Pace
Jun 12th 2012, 16:15
' While the Church continues to insist homosexuality is a disorder and that LGBT people are somehow wrong or sinful '
"Sacred Scripture condemns homosexual acts 'as a serious depravity'." "...homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."
"The homosexual inclination is ...'objectively disordered' and homosexual practices are 'sins gravely contrary
to chastity'."
"Catholics must 'witness to the whole moral truth, which is contradicted both by approval of homosexual acts
and unjust discrimination against homosexual persons'.".
Valerie Borg
Jun 12th 2012, 15:51
Gabi we are always behind you, Thank you for being our voice.
Joe Fenech
Jun 12th 2012, 15:34
No child adoption for gays.
Allow laws to assist any couple in matters like inheritance.
No marriage style ceremonies for gays. It is not natural to see Adam and Adam or Eve and Eve.
Homosexuality is not normal. It is a perversion of nature caused by physiological flaws (no matter how small it is - remember that people with Down's Syndrome simply have an extra chromosome). Accept it calmly.
Laws need to ensure that there is no discrimination, not for gays nor for heteros.
Jubilating homosexuality in long elliptical speeches and perverse gay parades just make things worse. Live your sexuality, but don't rub it in our faces.
And no...I don't want to see ANY couple kissing in public (keep sexual foreplay enclosed within your house ! ).
rebecca xiberras
Jun 12th 2012, 16:16
What are you talking about ? straight people hold hands and kiss in public all the time ! its a way of showing love ! im not saying have sex in public for god's sakes but gays,bisexuals and lesbians should be allowed to do the same stuff straight people do !
its time to grow up and open some minds we are in 2012 and not in the second world war anymore i dont know whats the reason people are so closed minded in Malta !
the argument that they will grow up to be gays is just plain stupid the majority of the LGBT people grew up in a heterosexual environment and still they turned out to be gay NO homosexuality is not unnatural
Joe Fenech
Jun 12th 2012, 16:25
Rebecca
I've moved round Europe for over 50 years and have seen quite a lot. Haven't been waiting for you, young lady!
Kissing is sexual foreplay and exhibitionist.
No one has mentioned holding hands!
rebecca xiberras
Jun 12th 2012, 16:34
im sorry then in todays society foreplay has a total different meaning
i really dont know what wrong with kissing !
rebecca xiberras
Jun 12th 2012, 16:38
well in todays society foreplay has a total different meaning
kissing has nothing wrong
Joe Fenech
Jun 12th 2012, 20:43
Rebecca
I know what foreplay is, and yes, it starts with kissing unless one is a beast.
Only sex workers don't consider kissing as foreplay because historically they don't kiss.
rebecca xiberras
Jun 13th 2012, 15:54
well then everyone in today's society is a sex worker or committing foreplay not only gays !
i don't have anything against old people kissing,straight people kissing, gay people kissing, lesbians kissing or children kissing as long as they are happy let them be !
Matthew Camilleri
Jun 12th 2012, 15:31
Next time they'll have the right to marry, and in a couple of years time they'll have the right to adopt children. Then the children will grow up on their father and father, or mother and mother examples. Therefore more people will be raised as gay. Perfect well done.
Valerie Borg
Jun 12th 2012, 16:14
Well sorry to break this to you but most gay and lesbian people were born from heterosexual people/couples so shall i say perfect well done to all the heterosexuals who have been allowed to marry or who chose not marry; and have children who are homosexual!I hope you realise how silly your comment is. If it depended on the sexuality of the parents then there would be no homosexuality right!!!!!!!! If you don't like gay marriage don't marry a man. The examples i took off my heterosexual parents are love, honesty, trust, compassion, kindness to all living beings. Being a lesbian hasn't changed that at all. And i will bring up our daughter the same way. But atleast i will be bringing up our child to love not to hate. She surely wont be coming home scared to tell us she is straight.
Mr Andrew Camilleri
Jun 12th 2012, 18:34
Can Matthew Camilleri explain, using his theory, how a heterosexual couple therefore produces a gay child or children?
Joe Fenech
Jun 12th 2012, 18:45
Andrew
It might not, but it's surely not a natural environment. It also create embarrassment to the kid - you might say "but, that's society's problem". The answer to that will be "on no it isn't".
Andrew Micallef
Jun 12th 2012, 22:35
Well said. I do agree with what Ms Calleja is proposing but I don't agree with child adoption.
Emma Xerri
Jun 12th 2012, 15:29
I find it quite odd that the Church is against gay rights and gay anything, given the fact that statistically an inordinate high number of gay people, both men and women, are found within the priesthood and religious communities.
Maria Borg
Jun 12th 2012, 13:43
"It’s just a matter of time"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55cG7EytB7M
Ramon Casha
Jun 12th 2012, 13:39
Has anyone ever come up with a good, valid reason why marriage should be denied to same-sex couples? Keep in mind that marriage is available to same-sex couples in several countries already and they all seem happy with the same-sex restriction removed.
Joe Fenech
Jun 12th 2012, 14:50
Because marriage has been a jubilation of nature where couple are a MAN and a WOMAN.
I am all for everyone to be protected legally in terms of inheritance, etc. and for everyone to be treated fairly.
Matthew Camilleri
Jun 12th 2012, 15:53
Even Abortion is available in several countries. They also seem happy, but it doesn't mean it's good.
Joe Fenech
Jun 12th 2012, 16:11
Matthew
All that hippy stuff will disappear. Abortion should only available after a couple of days following rape or else if the child shows severe handicap.
Norman E Grech
Jun 13th 2012, 09:42
...@ R Casha!
And you still haven't answered me! So should we also give this right to marry and raise kids to 3, 4 or more people who love each other too and decide to live together?
I dare you to answer me!
Henry S Pace
Jun 12th 2012, 13:14
' While the Church continues to insist homosexuality is a disorde '
Ms CValleja lack religious knowledge . It is not the Church to insist that homosecuallity is a disorder nut thisis the teaching of Jeasus Christ himself.
As a matter of fact the Church has great respect towards people who have different orientations however, it cannot be accepted that sexual vices are permitted between people of the same sex. This also applies to hetrosexual people who unsless they are living in marriage is wrong and sinful to do what the Lord God put in the Sixth Comandment. Though Shalt not commitAdultery '
Whatever Ms Calleja argues the word marriage only pertains to a man and a woman. Any other versions and/or interpretation of a union between people of the same sex cannot be describe to be a marriage.
Any state in the world that legislates 'Same Sex Marriages ' are do so for the sake of convenience in today's
worldtowin populist popularity.
Nature also invokes that Marriage is between a man and a women..
rebecca xiberras
Jun 12th 2012, 16:27
im sorry to break it to you but marriage isnt between Man and a Woman
nor between a Man and a Man, or a Woman and a Woman
but between Love and Love
Ramon Casha
Jun 12th 2012, 18:59
@Henry S Pace: Clearly it is you who lack religious knowledge. Nowhere in any of the gospels does Jesus ever mention or hint at homosexuality. Nowhere in the entire Bible does it hint that homosexuality is a disorder. And, to top it all off, science nowadays knows that it is not a disorder.
You also don't know the meaning of the word "adultery". It means cheating - extramarital sex, not pre-marital sex. The latter is not prohibited anywhere at all in the Bible. In fact the Bible only forbids women from cheating on their husbands, not men from cheating on their wives.
Nature does not have marriage, but homosexuality is found in many species besides humans.
Mr Peter Vella
Jun 12th 2012, 12:28
Gay rights activists need to accept the fact that the majority of Maltese follow the Roman Catholic religion and they should therefore respect their feelings. As much as they have rights to live the type of sexuality that they choose. others have the right to disapprove of their lifestyle. While the law should be there to protect their rights they have to understand that they also have duties, one of which is to respect the opinions and sensitivities of others. Rubbing your sexual preferences, whichever they may be, in other people's faces is not the proper thing to do.
One other thing they should remember is that the most homophobic elements of Maltese society are those with the lowest levels of education and those who have not been exposed to liberal attitudes, either because they have not travelled or else they hardly know what a book is. If you stop to think for a minute you will immediately which party the members of this this strata of our society vote for.
M Abdilla
Jun 12th 2012, 13:10
so rubbing your religion in someone's face is acceptable?
Ramon Casha
Jun 12th 2012, 13:32
"Rubbing your sexual preferences, whichever they may be, in other people's faces is not the proper thing to do."
Are you suggesting that married men and women should walk separately, not be seen in public together? Should babies be hidden away since they are a dead giveaway?
Oh wait, you mean it's only gays who should stay hidden away from public eye?
Peter Vella needs to accept the fact that the majority of Maltese who follow the Roman Catholic Religion can tell the church and state apart. Just as they have no objection to the sale of condoms despite the church's instructions not to use them, so too can the state stop denying civil marriage to same-sex couples, leaving the church to marry only those couples it wants to.
Tim Vella
Jun 12th 2012, 14:51
One does not 'choose' his sexuality Mr. Vella. You are born with it.
Let's presume that you're heterosexual, did you 'choose' to be hetero instead of gay Mr. Vella?
One more thing. Don't kid yourself with your last sentence. I know all sorts of scum from BOTH parties. Burying your head in the sand won't help.
David Seychell
Jun 12th 2012, 16:14
@Ramon Casha
"Are you suggesting that married men and women should walk separately, not be seen in public together? Should babies be hidden away since they are a dead give-away?"
Not all types of kisses are the same. You cannot put everything in the same basket and say that everything is equal. It's not, and this a fact. For instance wouldn't you feel disturbed if two consensual adults like a brother and a sister, or mother and son kiss each other like lovers?
rebecca xiberras
Jun 12th 2012, 16:30
@ david seychell im sorry but i don't think gays are brothers and sisters
and if 2 elderly people would kiss i wouldn't have a problem with it at all in fact i would be happy that two people have passed their whole life together and are still showing love to each other that is what real marriage is all about
David Seychell
Jun 12th 2012, 17:07
@Ms xiberras
" im sorry but i don't think gays are brothers and sisters"
I don't think gays are brothers and sisters either. My point is that in general, people feel uneasy when confronted with same sex kissing in a way similar to how they feel when confronted with same-blood couples kissing each other, it feels somehow wrong. Of course this is a subjective feeling, and it's very common so perhaps there are evolutionary reasons why people tend to feel that way or perhaps it's just the way we were brought.
Mr Andrew Camilleri
Jun 12th 2012, 18:38
Mr David Seychell, evolution has nothing to do with it. It's the way we are brought up. The first time I saw a man kissing a man I was shocked. But my children who attended a mixed school, found my reaction very funny- they said they were used to seeing boys kissing boys and girls kissing girls at school and at parties. They see nothing wrong with it. We are just badly conditioned.
David Seychell
Jun 12th 2012, 21:26
@Mr Andrew Camilleri
"evolution has nothing to do with it. It's the way we are brought up"
Perhaps, but I wouldn't discard the evolutionary explanation before it is scientifically tested. Consider for instance cannibalism. When I was a kid I heard about a true story of a plane that crushed on the mountains and the few survivors had to eat the flesh of the dead passengers to survive. They were rescued a couple of months later. When I heard the story of persons eating the human flesh I felt very disgusted. Years later I re-thought about it, and I couldn't find a rational reason why I felt disgusted, on the contrary I concluded that there is no reason to believe that human "meat" should in any way be inferior to that of other mammals like chicken or pigs. So here is my point, up to that point, no one ever told me that human meat is disgusting so I don't think we tend to be disgusted by cannibalism because of the way we are brought up. I think it makes sense to hypothesize that cannibalism would not have been beneficial to our species and that's why evolution endowed us with this natural instinct. The same reasoning can be applied to the natural tendency to feel disgusted by closely related sexual relationships since incest have strong negative effects on our species (genetic defects) and the same reasoning could be extended to same-sex relationships since reproduction is vital for the survival and evolution of our species.
Paolo Bugeja
Jun 14th 2012, 22:52
I respect that. In fact I am not after the church's approval!!
Shaun Camilleri
Jun 12th 2012, 12:27
Whatever the opponents say.. "It’s just a matter of time.” ... Thankyou GABI. Keep strong.. we are behind you.
Paul Azzopardi
Jun 12th 2012, 12:16
I really feel that the whole mix and match of sexes the best and I do believe that they have rights and that no one should be homophobic or what ever you call the rest of Phobias cause this is all getting massively confusing. I agree ALL human have the right to express themselves any way they can so long as it doesnt offend the moral of others. If they demand respect they need to know they have to give it back. I hate the idea of sexism or racism but while I feel equal to any gay or other sexual divertion they can think next I still have to voice my feeling which I have the right to ,as the multi sexual people do.
I believe the whole idea of procreation is what for a millenia of years have been between Male and Female, that procreate , give birth NATURALLY and have kids, cubs, kittens, spwans, fouls, calves etc. Now tell me if i'm wrong but can Man x man = pup or woman x woman = cub ???? No an no again and no again Noooo. Sure you can care for someone a child a baby but that child isnt yours by no biological creation having a child is more than being a dad or mum , more than blood its the soul conection and not in a religious way.
As far as I'm concerned this whole idiocy about man getting married to a man and reverse is a whole sham and show better be left to the celebs and comedians like Elton John not real people with real lives pretending they are from some higher order of nature !!! Whats wrong with these people didnt they have parents? where they not born from womb of a woman like anyone else???
So sure live your life to the fullest but stop this stupidity. Be equal in sense and sensibility whether you are gay or bi or trans or what ever ..just have a good life and love each other and anyone but dont commite an innocent baby to an un natural parent hood just because it suits you because any which way you look at it, it just isnt natural. End of story and its not because its only my own belief. But its the way NATURE dictates it.
Phewwww!!!!
Norman E Grech
Jun 12th 2012, 13:08
I couldn't have said it better! prosit!
Ramon Casha
Jun 12th 2012, 13:40
If you wish to restrict yourself only to what is natural, what are you doing on a computer?
Frank Gatt
Jun 12th 2012, 13:56
I think you are confused between love and procreation.
The core fundamental of marriage is an announcement and legal union between two people to the world that their partner is so much loved that they become their next of kin, so much loved that their partner is recognised as more loved than their parents or siblings.
Procreation occurs between men and women but not between every man and woman. This has occurred throughout the past and will continue to occur in the future.
Joe Fenech
Jun 12th 2012, 12:10
Gay people have the same rights as everyone. They simply want to be more equal than others. If I wanted to marry a horse, would the legislators make equine-marriage an institution?
V. Cauchi
Jun 12th 2012, 12:47
Don't be amazed, they would for a vote or two!
Ramon Casha
Jun 12th 2012, 13:34
If the horse can give his/her informed consent, sure go ahead :)
Joe Fenech
Jun 12th 2012, 14:45
Ramon Casha
Are animals asked for consent when they're domesticated?
It gets complicated when you marry dogs. You're mother in law will surely be a bitch.
Valerie Borg
Jun 12th 2012, 15:49
Joe then why are we fighting for equal rights? If in your own word "Gay people have the same rights as everyone" Why can't i marry the woman i have loved for 10 years? Why can't she adopt our child who has known her voice and her love from conception? Why if i die my partner who is also parent to our child have to fight the law to have custody of her? mmmmmmmmmmmm i can see how we have the same rights as you (presuming you are heterosexual that is) Come and live a week in my shoes and come and tell me our child is not loved, protected or happy and tell me the only difference is that at night i sleep with a woman!!!!! Good luck with your horse im sure it makes you happy to have someone who cant voice a different opinion to yours! And what a contradiction putting gays down as homosexuality is not normal yet you state no discrimination for gays mmmmm in one ear out the other!!!!
Maria Borg
Jun 12th 2012, 11:53
What is wrong is not equal to what is right.
V. Cauchi
Jun 12th 2012, 11:21
A report issued on Sunday finds that adult children of lesbian mothers are more likely to report negative outcomes in several categories than adult children raised by married father-mother parents.
The website address for The Washington Times report is at http://www.washingtontimes.com/multimedia/image/gayjpg_734664/#prettyPhoto
while a full explanatory article can be read at Il Corriere della Sera at http://www.corriere.it/cronache/12_giugno_11/come-si-cresce-se-mamma-o-papa-e-omosessuale_e2332dc8-b3cb-11e1-a52e-4174479f1ca9.shtml
Grace Adler
Jun 12th 2012, 11:27
How very selective of you. It clearly shows your social science background is very week and therefore the least to try and prove a point with such mere data. in any case ... I quote again the above ... " It’s just a matter of time.” ... "Anyone arguing against equality is already on the wrong sideof history." ... Anything else said is just like Napoleon's greatest battle ... teaching the ignorant!
Mr Joseph Carmel Chetcuti
Jun 12th 2012, 11:47
One would have to look at the methodology of such a study. Is the sample truly representative. Who were its authors? I have my suspicions!
Simon Polidano
Jun 12th 2012, 11:53
having studied statistics recently I can tell you not to read too much into that... The samples of each are difficult to rely on because there are sooo many children being raised in a heterosexual household and marginally fewer being raised in a homosexual household.
Mr Joseph Carmel Chetcuti
Jun 12th 2012, 12:10
It also assumes heterosexual (and homosexual) relationships are homogeneous.
Mr Joseph Carmel Chetcuti
Jun 13th 2012, 22:31
V Cauchi, so much for your reliance on this study! See this report: http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2012/06/12/author-defends-study-said-to-have-been-flawed-and-misleading-about-gay-parents/
Norman E Grech
Jun 12th 2012, 10:38
Whilst I admire Gaby Calleja for speaking up for gay rights, I can't help but get irritated by the fact that every time someone disagrees with her point of view she says 'This is another homophobic attitude'. She cannot take this word off her mind. Every thing is 'homo phobic', like we have to agree with with everything she says!
I am tempted to start referring to her as ' Hetro phobic'
I am one of those many who totally agree that gay people should have rights but won't ever accept that they get married, because marriage is between a man and a woman! You don't call a motor cycle with 4 wheels a car! It's called a quad bike!
Like many people I (and I am part of society and therefore have a say too) I am also against gay people having the legal right to raise kids.
The argument you bring forward to justify your cause is: If 2 men (or 2 women) love each other and want to tie the knot, as it were, who are the rest of us to deprive that from happening! With the same argument, if 2 men and a woman or 2 women and a man truly love each other and want to live together and want to tie the knot, the 3 of them together, who are we to deprive them from doing that?
rodolfo buontempo
Jun 12th 2012, 10:51
so what rights are you in favour of Mr Grech?
Ramon Casha
Jun 12th 2012, 10:58
So what you're saying is that gay people should have SOME rights, but not the same rights as you, right?
Yep, that's homophobia.
Norman E Grech
Jun 12th 2012, 11:07
@ R Casha
Don't put words in my mouth please!
I am in favour of gay having all rights pertaining to succession and all other rights relating to pension, assistance whatever. I am also in favour of gay people having a legal status that they're together but call it a civil union or whatever you like.
I am however against gays having the right to raise kids! It seems that everyone wants the cake and to eat it too nowadays. If their sexual orientation does not reproduce kids, why wanting to raise them? boq! I'm gonna start wanting all the privileges of filthy rich people! Let me join the bandwagon of wanting everything!
Now it's my turn to ask you to answer and give me your feed-back on my last paragraph!
Norman E Grech
Jun 12th 2012, 11:11
@ R Casha
With your argument, everyone without exception should have all rights!!!
Like I have the right to enter anywhere I chose to go, like I have the right to use any private jet, any yacht and to the right to live in palaces, like I have the right to park in restricted parking places for people with special needs and other private areas... the list goes on!!
So do 3 people have the right to get married and to raise kids together?
Valerie Borg
Jun 12th 2012, 11:19
Mr Grech what are you scared of? What do you think is going to happen to you if homosexuals are legally allowed to get married? Will you stop breathing and die? Your attitude of believing you deserve more then others who have the same love and feeling as you do for their partner (I am assuming you are happily married) equals homophobia! What rights do you believe we should have? Did i vote for you to be able to marry your partner? did i vote for you to be allowed to have children? Do your studies Mr Grech find out the truth about how we feel. Find out the truth about children being raised in same sex families. read this finding http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1994480,00.html?xid=newsletter-daily. We are not asking to be married by the church why would we want to when the church teaches others hate. Jesus didn't teach hate! He taught love one another as i have loved you. So what rights do you think we should have? I agree with Ramon Casha, Yep that's homophobia.
Mr Joseph Carmel Chetcuti
Jun 12th 2012, 11:20
Norman, if you do not believe in gay marriage, do not marry someone of your own sex. But let others who do not share your point of view enjoy the same rights as heterosexuals.
Mr Joseph Carmel Chetcuti
Jun 12th 2012, 11:26
Norman, as to the 'right' to have kids and as Gabi has often made the point, lesbians are generally not infertile. They can have their own children if they want to ... and they do! And it is none of your business. A gay man and a lesbian can have children together thanks to myriad of scientific developments. Have you heard of surrogacy? There are many heterosexuals who enter into such arrangements. Back in the seventies, in Sydney, such arrangements among gay men and lesbians were not uncommon. There is also fostering. Or are you against gay men and lesbians fostering children because that is all you can be against. Nobody tells us what to do with our bodies .
Maria Fenech
Jun 12th 2012, 11:30
Ah, you're against 2 people, loving each other, having children? Why so? So should couples who cannot have kids because of infertility, also NOT have kids? There is NO difference dear Mr. Grech.
It's been statisically proven that children, growing up in homosexual families are in no way inferior. Homosexual couples are not any less able to raise children. In fact, there is less domestic violence and rape occurring in these families. Why? because society is making it hell for these parents to adopt/give birth to children/IVF. It's expensive and can cost up to 10,000€ if not more, depending on luck. These parents truly WANT children. Something that cannot be said for many couples who let their mistakes out on the children and "family." Look it up, plenty of statistics and sociological studies.
Read it, and then repeat that you're against homosexual families. THEN you are just plain homophobic.
Norman E Grech
Jun 12th 2012, 11:34
@ Valerie Borg
If you noted properly, no where did I bring the church into this! I don't believe in church because I follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, so let us please leave religion out of this, completely.
I am posing the important argument of 'where do we draw the line'? Every one wants everything nowadays, it seems that some of us are losing the logic of normality. Whatever my personal status is completely irrelevant!
I am asking the question again, because so far, I have not received any response. If we have should have all the rights like everyone else, so if 3 people, say a man and 2 women truly love each other and truly wish to live together and raise children, should we then give them the legal right to get married and raise children too? Or do you descriminate and stop short of allowing rights where YOU deem fit?
Let's call a spade a spade or otherwise confusion and the laws of the jungle will prevail again.
Norman E Grech
Jun 12th 2012, 11:41
@ Maria Fenech and some others!
I rest my case! There you go again 'homo phobic, homo phobic homo phobic'
I brought up valid point and that's the best you can do!
So you're hetero phobic!
Instead of counter arguing and bringing up valid points to reach other people with different opinions, you take this aggressive approach!
Well done indeed!
Simon Polidano
Jun 12th 2012, 11:56
Oh Mr Grech so a sterile couple not able to rear kids of their own should not be allowed to adopt a less fortunate child either... Because biology have decided their fate for them. Biology madde us gay and we cannot have kids... so if biology made a woman sterile, she cannot adopt... right? am i on your same frequency?
Ramon Casha
Jun 12th 2012, 11:56
@Norman "With your argument, everyone without exception should have all rights!!!"
Wrong. With my argument, everyone without exception should have EQUAL rights!!! !
You have brought up no valid points but proven that you are, indeed, homophobic.
Simon Polidano
Jun 12th 2012, 11:59
oh and if im not mistaken... without knowing you asked for it, i gave you feedback on your last paragraph... :)
We cannot be heterophobic when all we know is heterosexuality... and dont rest anycases... you are not right in your argument so you will be out-argued.... if not by the rest of the people on here by me... :) you can be sure of that...
Norman E Grech
Jun 12th 2012, 13:15
... And still, NO ONE HAS ANSWERED MY QUESTION ...
I therefore have to conclude that it is useless debating!!
I just hope that as was done for the Divorce issue, that a referendum is called on this subject prior to legalising anything! And I voted in favour of divorce and conside myself very open minded!
I however believe in the law of nature and normality!
Richard Curmi
Jun 12th 2012, 14:26
Ms Valerie Borg, I'm no defender of the church but I would like to ask to give us some a quote or reference to where we can find the church telling anyone to hate others for whatever reason.
As to homo marriage why on earth you insist to call your partnerships/unions a marriage when they are not.
Yes to all the rights that go lawfully with these unions and the relevant legislation should be enacted asap but do not keep insisting to alter the definition of marriage as is socially accepted.
Mr Joseph Carmel Chetcuti
Jun 12th 2012, 23:42
What I am saying is simple. Neither Jesus nor the Church draws a line for me.
Paolo Bugeja
Jun 14th 2012, 23:23
@ Norman E Grech
I am gay and I applaude your approach. It is one which seeks dialogue. I also would like to comment on pro gay comments whereby it seems that things are taken negatively. In our defence I would like to add that our happiness are at stake.
But back to your comments. Whilst you are right in saying that you have an opinion, you use terms like norm, normal, etc. That seems to a minority as a manner to classify matters under what is determined as being the norm and others which fall outside. And in attempting to do such, you are already being a racist based on sexual orientation. In other cases, one tries to enter into the minority's perspective and determines what are the needs and wants. However in your case, you never try to understand the rights of such humans. You judge by your ways. That might be homophobic since you are not concerned of the homosexual's needs. You are just concerned of your right to be heard as a heterosexual. You think you do not have homosexuals, but you are certainly not trying to understand them either.
As to what you believe or not, that is totally up to you. There is ample room for discussion. One thing for sure is that everyone has a right to parenthood. Whores, Straights, Gigolos, Escorts, Homeless, etc...... I never came across an editorial or article which discusses who can fill in a form and get the approval. The fact the we are being discussed seems like it is homophobic.
I would not want to have kids as I do believe that due to stupid people around, the kid could suffer. I would make an excellent parent. However if I decide to have one, I for sure would not need any permission, just like most people didn't need any permits.
Unfortunately homosexuals feel this differential treatment. The fact of requiring approvals evidences further the troubling times whereby all gays/lesbians had to go through to deal with their sexuality. And asking for a referendum doesn't help! You know it is a minority, so you comment was not passed in good faith! If you want to ask questions, I can try to answer, but do not get offended if I deem your comments as homophobic. You are asking for an honest opinion!
Norman E Grech
Jun 15th 2012, 13:17
@ Poalo Bugeja!
Finally, someone with sense! Someone who is prepared to understand other reasoning from other perspectives other than his own.
I do care for other people's happiness and concerns. I am truly a fervent animal lover and that in itself should show you what kind of stuff I am made off.
Permit to disagree with you on the question of 'normality' I can never accept what you stated that if I consider 'normality' I am being a racist! This is the root of all troubles today! We, and I include everyone, seem to have distanced ourselves from normality and nature. These yardsticks are very important if we want to keep some level of order and sense. We cannot have a free for all situation where everyone is allowed to do 'whatever makes him happy, 'as their happiness is a stake' Again I pose the question: what if living and loving 2 or more women at the same time and living with them, and having kids from all of them makes ME happy? Shall I then take it against anyone opposing that? anyone not accepting that we should legalise this situation? No one has answered me so far!
With all due respect, a marriage is between a man and a woman! If gay wish to live together, fine by me, if these same gay people wish to have certain rights such as succession rights, social assistance rights, rights in hospital etc is also fine by me! And no where do I bring religion into this! But in my eyes, you are who you are, and yes in certain ways, you are different!
Everyone seems to want everything today! there are a lot of things I wish to have or to be but because of who I am, and because of the society I live in, I cannot have or cannot be, and I accept that!
You have a right to voice your opinion and I have the right to voice mine! Sorry, but in my opinion there are lines to draw and limits should exist.
Paolo Bugeja
Jun 16th 2012, 12:52
Dear Norman, I will obviously disagree with you :-). You say, and I quote - 'I can never accept what you stated that if I consider 'normality' I am being a racist! This is the root of all troubles today!' I cannot be more in disagreement to that statement. You say I am different. But why should I differ from you when you can easily differ from me. In your eyes (and I stand to be corrected here) there is a prototype human being. Probably a Tom Cruise or Julia Roberts. You might even have a checklist to note differences between people and these prototypes. Then you approve the differences, and if you are not in favour, the issue is not passed through. Only one question though. Did you do the checklist for yourself?
I am sure that your generations have changed things from your parents'. And you sure had to fight the battle to do so. I remember times when women had a secondary role in society. No right to voting was only one of such things. I am sure people against it quoted Bibles, Laws, etc to substantiate the argument. But fundamentally, what should have been asked was, would it make a difference to men whether women are treated better? No, it shouldn't have. Everyone is scared of change, but is this change threatening you and society?
From what you mentioned above, it seems that gay marriage is troubling you. You might be right. But again, did you ask yourself what difference will it sincerely make to you and to society. If two gay men have been together for 25 years living together, what will their marriage do to you and society. How will it effect you? If you answer honestly, it will result in a None. However you might argued, its a matter of principle, value, whatever. That is where I think that you are acting like a God. I always contend that no human being should act like a God. In this case, you are. You are deciding on other people's future just because you believe in conservationalism as opposed to liberalism.
However I would sign a deal whereby every man or woman have to be judge. I want to be on the same panel you are! There are FAR greater faults in this world than wanting to be integrated in the society you have been brought up in. I remember being young and being told that one day I will get married. Till when I realised that I differed from the person, which people were programming to be. Dealing with that is already hard since you have to let down your parents (maybe not justified, but still a let down). Then some stranger comes along and thinks he can easily discuss all this in a nutshell. A two sentence statement. Nasty words, offending, also not understanding. So these people without knowing me, have the right to decide for me? Only because I am a minority?
Is all this worth it? You would sincerely rather fight for two men not to get married? Funny things values are. They are only applied to where one wants! Let us petition on values which are being crushed. Like bad parenting. I propose that bad parents are not allowed a second child. Or at least, the second child is not christened or accepted by the Republic of Malta. Wouldn't I be acting God, if I do that?
Barney Camilleri
Jun 12th 2012, 10:35
In every society you find that one of a kind, not only, but she/he will try to sound as a majority and everyone against him/her.
Sorry, I have to write I am not against gay or any other thing that goes behind closed doors. Would they like to worship the devil, that is the choice that one will have to stand and answer before a living God, it is said that on human mind can understand.
I believe a Society that have reached this level of freedom only because of personal sacrifice must not fall back to certain innate propensity that only animals are know to follow. Why not with that same ignorance start walking naked down main street? that would be really nice after all animals do it.
Grace Adler
Jun 12th 2012, 10:52
"It’s just a matter of time.” ... "Anyone arguing against equality is already on the wrong side of history."
C Agius
Jun 12th 2012, 11:18
Worship the devil? Have you landed in a time capsule from 1483 hand-in-hand with Tomas de Torquemada?
I am not sure I understood what you were trying to say anyway, your grammer and syntax is appalling.
Mr Joseph Carmel Chetcuti
Jun 12th 2012, 11:29
I have no problems with people walking naked down a street. And by the way, homosexuality is not just something we do in the bedroom. When we leave the bedrooms, we are still gay/homosexual/lesbian. What we are after is the rights that heterosexuals enjoy in public. All of them!
Mr Joseph Carmel Chetcuti
Jun 12th 2012, 11:36
"What we are after is the rights" - 'is' should have read 'are'.
Barney Camilleri
Jun 12th 2012, 11:43
Joseph Carmel Chetcuti
I must said Joseph Carmel you came to my mind you see we have a slight difference of the concept of freedom. You have no problem with people walking naked down the street. Well to me under equal individual freedom I have a lot of a problem, although in private if you want you can drown yourself if I see you drowning I go out of my way to help.
That is the bottom line.
While we are at it we should let people take drugs and as of lately let people eat other people face down the street (at it happened lately in Florida).
After all it is all FREEDOM.
Mr Joseph Carmel Chetcuti
Jun 12th 2012, 12:17
Barney, it may surprise you but I am strongly against drug taking. I seldom drink and when I do it is no more than two small glasses. I do not smoke either. And you may be surprised to learn I am not in favour of cannibalism. The point I am making is that there is nothing wrong with the body and no reason to be ashamed by it. After all, your God says he made it and everything he made was good. Or have we changed that now? You speak of the bottom line. I wonder if that is a Freudian slip!
Barney Camilleri
Jun 12th 2012, 15:08
Joseph Carmel
What better words to finish a posting 'Freudian slip!'
Freudian slip or memory mistakes that is believed to be linked to the unconscious mind.
One can give as an example, a person who strongly believe that he is singled out, without knowning that his state of mind linked to his unconscious has wrong assumptions.
It make sense if this someone out of the norm of things will strongly convince himself, yet in the end his only guidance is something that altered his way the mind function thinks he is smarter than 'My God'
In this case Joseph Carmel there is not much one can do other than sympathize for the poor soul.
Mr Joseph Carmel Chetcuti
Jun 12th 2012, 23:44
I don't believe in souls either! So do not waste your time on sympathies.
V. Cauchi
Jun 12th 2012, 10:25
“While the Church continues to insist homosexuality is a disorder and that LGBT people are somehow wrong or sinful, I can’t see any way in which we could come to some form of agreement with the Church.”
What the Church and many persons insist upon is that it is the SILLINESS (ksuħat) of this homosexual trend in the world that should be condemned and not actual, biological homosexuality as such, who should still practise chastity. A very low percentage of persons are actually born or biologically considered to be homosexuals, while the greater majority only do it for the silliness of it, to keep with the trend and to look modern. Not to say anything of a hidden agenda coming from high above (UN etc.) to promote homosexuality as a form of birth control against an exploding world population.
Let us face these facts and stop being silly!
Grace Adler
Jun 12th 2012, 10:34
"It’s just a matter of time.” ... "Anyone arguing against equality is already on the wrong side of history."
Carmelo Aquilina
Jun 12th 2012, 11:06
o the church insists that homosexuality is inherently disordered... and for your information homosexuality is not a choice but the way someone is made...and if God made 'em how can he then disown them ? Methinks you are the one being silly !
Simon Polidano
Jun 12th 2012, 11:30
What the Church and many persons insist upon is that it is the SILLINESS (ksuħat) of this homosexual trend in the world that should be condemned and not actual, biological homosexuality as such, who should still practice chastity. A very low percentage of persons are actually born or biologically considered to be homosexuals, while the greater majority only do it for the silliness of it, to keep with the trend and to look modern.
Are you kidding me... what the church calls on is that being gay is an abomination, simple as that. unlike your own vies the church believes that being gay is some kind of sinful disorder, or temptation from the devil which I assure you is not in 100% of homosexual people.
As for the SILLINESS.. I'm sorry, but no effeminate guy acts that way just to 'keep up with the trend and look modern' (do you have ANY idea how ridiculous you sound saying that). People act the way they do because that is how they are wired... that is how they are made and there is no choice in the matter.
We know... WE KNOW how simple our life would be if we could just wear some shining Armour, swoop in and impress a beautiful woman, get married, have babies and live happily ever after... WE KNOW! This is the hand we were deal. WE ARE GAY, we know more than any straight person who we are... and instead of complaining about it, acting like its something sinful, and that we are going to hell because this is how we were made, through the years (many of us dirty and attention seeking homosexuals) have adapted and have decided to embrace who we are.
WE KNOW who we are, and we don't need a closed minded person to tell us... believe me; an 18 year old boy (I say 'boy' because in my eyes 18 year olds are still children) who looks like a boy but acts like a girl is not silly... especially in this country... he is anything but silly. For that person to have the courage to go out and not feel ashamed in public considering the hostile environment we live in... that's bravery.. not "ksuħat" as you aptly put it
Finally (Not to say anything of a hidden agenda coming from high above (UN etc.) to promote homosexuality as a form of birth control against an exploding world population.)... OH MY GOD... These are your facts? These are the facts which is we do not face we are silly? The UNITED NATIONS FINALLY recognizes homosexuality... An Asian representative FINALLY puts homosexuality on the UN-Table and this has been addressed just to solve the problem of an 'exploding world population'... OH MY GOD!!
I'm sorry I know... I know I should be taking what you are saying to heart since it is all completely and utterly ridiculous... but I can't help it... I don't know you.. anything about you but chances are you have children of your own, if not chances are you will have children at some point,. And when I read your post the first thing to cross my mind is that children coming from your womb will be exposed to this brainwashing which really and truly is the real crime here...!
I'm sorry I have an exam to get to but V. Gauchi, thank you for giving me a lot to think about and plenty to feel sorry for you
Mr Joseph Carmel Chetcuti
Jun 12th 2012, 11:32
V Cauchi, if you are homosexual and you wish to practice chastity, that is your call. I am an agnostic and a homosexual. I do not want to live a life of chastity. It is people like you who are 'silly'!
Frank Gatt
Jun 12th 2012, 14:10
You are correct in saying that a low percentage of persons are born as homosexuals. To say that the greater majority only do to "keep up with the trend" is ridiculous.
I assume that you are like me and are not homosexual. There is no way I could have sexual relations with a same sex partner, could you, really.
The church is the last place anyone should look for advice or direction on this matter.
Ms Maria Vella
Jun 12th 2012, 10:11
A family is that of a man and woman based on marriage, anything else is a partnership
C Agius
Jun 12th 2012, 10:21
So my sister isn't part of my family? If I adopt a child, we would not be a family? if my partner and I have a child, that social grouping would not be called a family but a partnership?
Open your door, walk outside and meet some people.
rodolfo buontempo
Jun 12th 2012, 10:27
so what about those children who are born outside wedlock? Shouldn't they be considered as being raised in a 'family'? You are making this an issue of religion when one doesn't have any right to impose his religious beliefs on others? Thus meaning that the concept of 'family' is a universal one not a catholic concept. Get your facts right Ms Vella. Starting point would be by checking the dictionary for the word dictionary.
Let me not hassle you... Here it goes: "a group consisting of two parents and their children living together as a unit" I do not find any mentioning of the word 'marriage' etc...
there you go Ms Vella it is as basic as that
Grace Adler
Jun 12th 2012, 10:31
Quote: "It’s just a matter of time.” ... "Anyone arguing against equality is already on the wrong side of history."
Mr Joseph Carmel Chetcuti
Jun 12th 2012, 11:34
How delighted I am to see such opinions expressed by Maria Vella and the Kercem bishop. With views like these, the end of fundamental Catholicism is almost certain. Keep it up, boys! Or girls!
Mike Abbot
Jun 13th 2012, 13:55
that is simply your point of view.
Please choose the reason of your report below: