How a devout believer approaches unbelievers
These days this is the question – at least, for some people. I wouldn’t be writing this if the English papers I read didn’t periodically publish the same letters written by the same people, announcing to all and sundry how clever they are to have chosen atheism. At the same time these correspondents ridicule and insult “credulous” believers and trample heavily on what believers hold sacred. This in itself is a basic lack of education on their part.
I personally have never been able to decipher what is the aim of all these repeated declarations. Is anybody stopping anybody from being an atheist? If the aim is to persuade, it backfires. The more you attack my faith, the more I think about it and hold on to it. Faith is such an intensely personal matter that it can neither be caught nor taught. It is a gift from the Creator God (whether you believe in Him or not is completely beside the point). You are left free to accept it or reject it.
People who have rejected faith in God are a mixed bag. They come in all shapes and sizes. On the local scene, they are usually lapsed or nominal Catholics while they include as well a crowd of Church-bashers whose favourite sport is to bash the Church every chance they get. Periodically they rake up old sins of the Church – real or otherwise, only God can judge – and revel in highlighting its new sins in the media.
They forget the obvious, that the Church, as a human institution, is made up of sinners. You just have to look at the original 12 to realise how flawed they were from the start. It is the easiest thing on earth to pick on the sins and failings of the Church as if this is something surprising or shocking. What do you expect from fallible sinners? Aren’t we all in the same boat?
Many people are of the opinion that, in truth, there is no such thing as an atheist. The term atheist is a misnomer. What does an atheist do? He denies the existence of God. Then, with his next breath, he will set himself up as a god and woe betide whoever does not see eye to eye with him. He will go on boring everyone quoting long, unpalatable chunks from other pseudo-gods like himself and expecting everyone to swallow them whole the way he did.
So what to do in this situation? It may come as a surprise to some that the Mother of God entered this fray long ago and is proposing a solution. Ever since August 1987, on the second day of every month, She has been coming to Medjugorje to pray specifically for unbelievers while inviting everyone to pray with Her for this specific intention. She classifies humanity not according to religion, race, skin, colour, wealth, status, nationality. No, for Her (and whether you believe in Her or not is beside the point as far as She is concerned) all the human race falls distinctly into two categories – believers and unbelievers.
Before anyone rushes to false conclusions, Her definition of a believer is one who has a personal knowledge of the love of God, one who listens to God and communes with Him. The unbeliever lacks this experience for reasons which vary from one person to another. This definition is a vast area which requires in-depth analysis and obviously cannot be tackled here. The individual must do a lot of sincere soul-searching to see in which category he fits. So what does She propose meanwhile? Do not point fingers, ridicule, insult, argue, fight, get angry or frustrated, judge or condemn or try to stand with one foot in each camp. In Her own words, just “pray, pray, pray”. And while you are at it, make sure that you pray with the heart.
These days, the lists of guest speakers at International Marian Conferences do not just include learned theologians and Mariologists. They include persons who put in brackets after their names (ex-sceptic or ex-atheist) as if this is for them a badge of honour. When you read or hear their diverse testimonies, they all insist on the same thing – and this thing is fast becoming an interesting titbit of information on the Mother of God, which you will never find in Mariology. They all claim that the speciality of the Mother of God is cracking hard nuts.
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Marie Benoit
Jul 5th 2012, 16:46
It is always consoling to see a committed believer in love with God and Ms Abela is obviously one. I have fallen out of love with God. I have my reasons. But as an agnostic I believe most people, including myself, are on a quest and searching for the truth. Is there a God or not? Is it possible that every flower, every animal, every human being is a result of chemical and physical forces?
There are, even to the most unthinking of us, crucial issues of concern to us all. The issues of life and death followed closely by the quest for happiness, love and acceptance; the fear of pain, illness,loss and rejection; and such concerns as the purpose of life, the nature of relationships and the fear of suffering.
We want tangible proof of God's existence, if he is truly there. But in the words of Georges Braque: "Les preuves fatiguent la verite." But let us not run away with the idea that believers or Roman Catholics are the only keepers of morality. In Max Planck's words: "Even if I were to believe as an atheist, I would want to live as a saint."
In my observation of human beings I have come to believe that as someone wrote somewhere: "Faith brings hope and man lives not from day to day but from hope to hope." Most people are happier believing in a God. So it is best not to interfere with anyone's faith.
Victor Laiviera
Jul 11th 2012, 15:09
" Is it possible that every flower, every animal, every human being is a result of chemical and physical forces?"
Yes.
Carmel Vella
Jun 22nd 2012, 05:32
The only way to treat an atheist, is to smile , and then ignore whatever he/she says.
Carmel Vella
Jun 22nd 2012, 05:32
The only way to treat an atheist, is to smile , and then ignore whatever he/she says.
Wenzu Vella
Jun 14th 2012, 08:54
How can God have a mother when according to our teaching God have no beginning or end? Believing or not no one can prove either way and that is why this argument is pointless.
Kyrani Eade
Jun 4th 2012, 13:27
God is not a personal God, but from the point of view of worship, one can use the concept of a personal God. Christians believe that Jesus is God and that he had a father in heaven. Jesus himself did not claim he was God, quite the opposite in fact. He said to one of his disciples "why do you call me good, I am not good, only God is good". It was Paul who basically interpreted the teachings of Jesus and created personal Gods. I suspect that a lot of people, who become agnositcs or atheists, are really reacting to the idea of personal God. One can hear some of them make statements that are basically theological and what they are reacting to is personal God.
I don't know where you got the words from when you say "Her definition of a believer is one who has a personal knowledge of the love of God, one who listens to God and communes with Him. " I presume you are talking about the Holy Mary. From mystical experience I can say to you that there is no personal left when there is mergence with the Divine. In the Gita it says "to love is to know Me, your innermost nature, the truth that I AM. This is the same I AM as in the OT, God that Jesus spoke of. It is difficult to communicate without using the personal. Our languages are all based on the personal self. In real terms there is no finding God because that personal self that seeks to find is only an illusion. And realizing that is really what faith is about because it comes from direct experience, which is given by God and not something we can acquire.
Kenneth Cassar
May 15th 2012, 09:33
"What does an atheist do? He denies the existence of God. Then, with his next breath, he will set himself up as a god and woe betide whoever does not see eye to eye with him".
Are you sure that slandering them is the best way a believer should approach atheists?
Victor Pulis
May 14th 2012, 16:58
Am Camilleri
Yesterday, 17:53
I'm ready to listen to the rational arguments of why something, (anything - it doesn't have to be God) cannot have always existed.
Like for instance the universe? Are you prepared to accept that the universe always existed? Constant state?
Am Camilleri
May 14th 2012, 19:17
I don't know if I'm prepared to accept, but I'm prepared to listen, so go ahead and explain - although I think you misunderstand me in that I accept there could have been a big bang - but surely there were atoms, or gases or matter or something that was there forever before that? So I was asking what rational arguments there are that in fact there was zilch, nada, xejn? I do admit its a concept I find difficult to grasp.
Kenneth Cassar
May 14th 2012, 08:58
I love it when a believer spreads a false rumour that says that atheists proclaim themselves as cleverer than believers, and then writes a whole letter that makes atheists look indeed cleverer.
Mike Hunt
May 13th 2012, 17:29
"What does an atheist do? He denies the existence of God. Then, with his next breath, he will set himself up as a god and woe betide whoever does not see eye to eye with him."
In part you are right, in that many "atheists" reject the existence of deities. However the word means 'not a theist'. Your assumption is that people are born within Theloogy people suddenly wake up and say 'I reject'.
Doesn't really work like that. Take cats for example. You can see cats, touch cats, and so forth. You can't touch a star. But you can formulate theories, build models, do experiments that test those models, and keep on refining those models that best predict the ouctome of what we see, experiments we do etc. Example ... you can't directly touch an electron, but we know enough about electrons to build electric devices, electronics, shoot electrons from guns towards fluorescent sceens (that would be the old school television), etc etc etc etc.
With deities it's different. I cannot do experiments. I can build models that explain the reality around us, but there are scientific models that do a better job. You can go back and say things like 'but at the beginning'. That doesn't help me because I cannot derive anything from it. You can't even say things like 'before the big bang' or what not because from the best models we have time is an integral part of it all so time outside reality makes no sense (let alone a concept of before).
Martin Cassar
May 13th 2012, 17:27
Ramon Casha
@Martin: Then you'll just get the same answer: There was no "who". However far back you care to look, everything is a natural process without the slightest hint of an intelligent entity involved.
"Life" is a very complex set of chemical and physical processes.
-----------------------------
Dear Ramon,
I tend to disagree with you on this one I am afraid. There are so many things surrounding us, and were there before we existed that are working and managed with the most perfect manner possible yet we can’t do without and we have no power to control them.
Whether we agree or disagree, like or dislike these things are there and there must be a unique creator.
What about the air, moon, the sun? Today is hot and it’s about 35 degrees and I don’t even want to think about August. Do you know of anyone (NASA experts included) that could hold the sun for coming August ? or for a day, an hour, a minute, a second …etc?
Giving the fact that the sun is an essential element for life to almost everything on planet earth and most importantly we can not do without the sun this would bring the question, who owns the sun? Unlike our power station that occasionally gets service interrupted despite paying high bills. I never read that the sun won’t shine for a given period of time due to maintenance or the owner is shutting down for a holiday or due to rescission the prices of sun charges would increase.
The sun is there free of charge to all human (atheists included) to enjoy. The simple fact is this whoever owns the sun is more perfect than all technicians at our station altogether. Who owns the sun is more just than all people work at ARMS all together since he provide this perfect yet necessary service free for all. I gotta love who owns the sun indeed!
If I can not see, talk or touch the owner of the sun this however doesn’t necessarily mean the sun has no owner or works randomly.
We don’t actually have to get so far to look who owns the sun. A bit t dose of thinking would provide the answer.
Please let me elucidate, you and I have our nails grow, right? If you keep looking 24/7 at your nails …do you see your nails growing? No. But still nails grow and this fact we can’t see or touch….guess what? We don’t even have power on ourselves ....can one stay 24/7 without sleeping, breathing without having a damaging effect on his/her biological clock?
Just look at your fingers and ask, what natural process that created billions of billions of unique finer prints?
To condense, [methinks] there must be [one] perfect, caring and just creator to everything on planet earth that manages and control everything (human included). The other fact is this in the Bible you may find a man-made god [Jesus] but not a creator.
Mike Hunt
May 13th 2012, 20:07
Please reassure me that you are only being sarcastic. Just because you do not understand the processes involved does not mean there is someone pulling the strings!!!!
Victor Pulis
May 14th 2012, 16:55
Despite your long comment you did not prove that there is a creator. Why would the sun have an ówner'?You are under the impression that the sun was created for us. That way of thinking is called egocentric. A baby thinks that the world revolves round him. As the baby grows he realises that he is just another member of society which owes him nothing. So it is with human history. Primitive men thought that the universe was made for him. (Man in god's image) Natural phenomana were caused by angry gods as punishment, incredibly there are still people who believe this! with time man discovered that he was just another organism in the universe and that he was not special.
Martin Cassar
May 14th 2012, 20:08
@ Victor Pulis.
‘Despite your long comment you did not prove that there is a creator’
You and I were born and found the sun already there. None of us could claim the creation or ownership of the the sun. …right? Is there any human claims ownership of the sun?
Since the sun is there and we can not live without it and its working in perfect order without the slightest interference or whatever from man….that means there must be a powerful manager behind the sun.
As you perfectly put it we might have not grown up yet to realize this fact.
Have you created yourself by any chance? If the answer is yes please tell me how .....and if your answer is the evolving fiction please first enlighten me what was that animal/s that was evolved and eventually became human, second who created this very animal please?
Kenneth Cassar
May 16th 2012, 07:20
@ Martin Cassar:
"You and I were born and found the sun already there. None of us could claim the creation or ownership of the the sun. …right? Is there any human claims ownership of the sun? Since the sun is there and we can not live without it and its working in perfect order without the slightest interference or whatever from man….that means there must be a powerful manager behind the sun".
Look up "non sequitur". Yours is a perfect example. That the sun is there, and that humans do not own the sun, does not mean that "there is a powerful manager behind the sun". How would that follow?
"Have you created yourself by any chance? If the answer is yes please tell me how ....."
Nobody ever said that.
"and if your answer is the evolving fiction..."
Evolving fiction? I think we're wasting our time here.
"...please first enlighten me what was that animal/s that was evolved and eventually became human, second who created this very animal please?"
Nobody did, but if you insist that God did, then who created God? I know, you'll tell me that he always existed. You're presumably one of those who says that everything must have a cause only when it suits him.
Kenneth Cassar
May 16th 2012, 07:23
"If I can not see, talk or touch the owner of the sun this however doesn’t necessarily mean the sun has no owner or works randomly".
It doesn't mean the "owner of the sun" exists either. And no, the sun does not "work" randomly. It follows natural laws, and will cease existing in time. If you could live that long when it does, you'll say that God intentionally destroyed the sun, since He couldn't have created an imperfect sun, could he?
Mike Hunt
May 13th 2012, 16:38
"Her definition of a believer is one who has a personal knowledge of the love of God, one who listens to God and communes with Him." - sounds a lot like auditory hallucinations in paranoid schizophrenia
Alex Ellul
May 13th 2012, 12:36
Current scientific knowledge indicates that a biological 'eve' was real.
Mike Abbot
May 13th 2012, 16:55
you are trying to bring science to creationism - care to expand?
Kenneth Cassar
May 14th 2012, 13:55
What Alex Ellul refers to as a "biological eve" is actually known as "Mitochondrial Eve".
Mitochondrial Eve is believed to be the most recent common ancestor from the maternal line, of all people living today (note: not first woman or even their first ancestor). There is also a male counterpart, Y-Chromosomal Adam, who is believed to be the most recent common ancestor from the paternal line.
However, it is understood that Mitochondrial Eve and Y-Chromosomal Adam lived thousands of years apart.
It should also be noted that the names "Eve" and "Adam" in Mitochondrial Eve and Y-Chromosomal Adam were deliberately chosen by scientists, and were obviously not their actual names.
Victor Pulis
May 12th 2012, 21:44
Martin Cassar
Today, 20:41
@Victor Pulis
You keyed in:
What does an atheist do? He denies the existence of God.
.....................................
How one can deny the existence of something unless that thing in question actually exists?
Do you deny that there are little fairies flying around in your garden? If so then fairies exist!
Jonathan Camilleri
May 12th 2012, 20:56
whatever...
stephen koludrovic
May 12th 2012, 20:21
I'm still trying to figure out who did god create first? Dinosaurs or Adam.
Roger Tirazona
May 12th 2012, 18:49
This letter is an attestation that there is a huge difference between what is lectures in the theology halls and what is proclaimed from the pulpits of churches, religious organisations, religious literature and religion teachers. People are not being taught how to be rational; they're being taught how to be devoted by pushing aside reason.
Karl Consiglio
May 12th 2012, 19:41
Rationale is Thought Crime.
Martin Cassar
May 12th 2012, 17:09
May I ask, what actually constitutes believer/unbelievers?
Is Adam an imaginary figure?
If the answer of this question is [yes] then someone must give explanation where we all came from, if the answer is [no] this would automatically brings the question: Did Jesus create Adam?
Ramon Casha
May 12th 2012, 18:50
Yes, Adam is fictional.
As for where we call came from, try searching for "human evolution"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution
Martin Cassar
May 12th 2012, 19:29
@ Ramon Casha,
No need to get into the merit of "human evolution" but the question remains who created the very first human/animal that eventually developed to human?
Ramon Casha
May 12th 2012, 20:21
It wasn't a "who". The strongest evidence points to a natural process starting with the creation of amino acids from simple molecules, then proteins - and proteins can form simple cells.
Martin Cassar
May 12th 2012, 21:06
@Ramon Casha
It wasn't a "who". The strongest evidence points to a natural process starting with the creation of amino acids from simple molecules, then proteins - and proteins can form simple cells.
Still I will again ask who created all the very list of first item/s you mentioned? and another extra question who provided those items with life ;-) ?
Ramon Casha
May 13th 2012, 06:51
@Martin: Then you'll just get the same answer: There was no "who". However far back you care to look, everything is a natural process without the slightest hint of an intelligent entity involved.
"Life" is a very complex set of chemical and physical processes.
Victor Pulis
May 13th 2012, 09:21
Who created the creator of the universe? Of course he was there from eternity. But how can that be? Ah! that's a mystery! End of (rational) agument!
Mike Abbot
May 13th 2012, 09:28
Martin, your question only begs another question.. if it was a who, then who created the creator?
Am Camilleri
May 13th 2012, 17:53
I'm ready to listen to the rational arguments of why something, (anything - it doesn't have to be God) cannot have always existed.
C Busuttil
May 12th 2012, 16:24
I was in agreement with what I was reading but I changed my mind when reading the word Medjugorje.
Medjugorje is a hoax which will never have the church approval. Two Popes have not even taken into consideration giving any recognition. John Paul II passed very near to Medjugorje in one of his trips but did not even take in consideration paying a visit!!!!!!! The spiritual director of the visionaries was removed and defrocked for his activities of heresy and schism.
Mr Marco Debattista
May 12th 2012, 15:20
I was expecting to read a genuine article. Yet once again, I've had to read with disappointment another waffling column of faith victimization, pseudo-preaching and proselytising.
The many people who Vivienne Abela claim to have the opinion that there's no such thing as an atheist clearly don't know what Atheism is all about and if the editor of the times would like, I would be more than happy to write a comprehensive and constructive article about the issue.
Am Camilleri
May 12th 2012, 15:01
Personally I approach my atheist friends with a Hi! how are you? what you drinking? But thank you Ms Abela for bringing further sincere comment to the debate. I'm sure you'll see a heap of responses in the coming days and hurray for that because as you say "The more you attack my faith, the more I think about it and hold on to it" I react the same way - and in fact the letters pulled me out of a bit of lethargy and returned my youthful enthusiasm for my faith and now I'm reading the bible daily again and recognising little miracles in my life. Like God, its great! Looking forward to the replies . . . .
Edward Clemmer
May 12th 2012, 13:39
This is a refreshing, non-dogmatic, unfundamentalistic, open, sincere, and non-confrontational letter from a devount believer, in an open letter to unbelievers. In a world where religious believers or non-believers wear their personal positions like campaign banners for their political identities, my best regards to Vivienne Abela of Mosta. We have never met, but prosit! In this regard, for believers and non-believers alike, I would recomment my recent books, Gospel (on the Road to) Emmaus, Vol. 1 & Vol. 2, which is an account of my own spiritual journey through the gospel with the Risen Lord. Brief introductions are provided by Fr. Peter Serracino Inglott in his Times of Malta column, "From Strickland to Christ," and from Kirkus book reviews.
Eric Soames
May 12th 2012, 14:26
Sincerity is not an indication of being right. One can be sincerely wrong. You sound sincere but, oops, you're peddling a book. Where does that swing the marker on the sincerity scale?
Edward Clemmer
May 12th 2012, 15:51
I suppose, from your argument, the only reason scripture exists in book form is "market forces." My books exists only to facilitate those who may be interested in exploring the gospel with understanding. There is no financial gain for me (quite the contrary) in my invitation to the books. Although the Lord provides the invitations, there are very many who provide their excuses for not attending the feast (Mt 22:1-14).
Eric Soames
May 12th 2012, 19:41
Edward Clemmer: You suppose wrong. I'm not judging the reasons you wrote the books, merely pointing out that the presumption of sincerity may be dependent on, or swayed by, other factors and appearances.
Victor Pulis
May 12th 2012, 12:56
What does an atheist do? He denies the existence of God. Then, with his next breath, he will set himself up as a god and woe betide whoever does not see eye to eye with him. Vivienne Abela
The only person who places himself in god's place on Earth is the Pope
Faith is such an intensely personal matter that it can neither be caught nor taught.Vivienne Abela.
If you were born in say, Dubai or Iran you would be Muslim. Faith is taught, or rather drummed into one's brain from birth depending in what part of the world one is born. To a Muslim youre an atheist.
Mr leo attard
May 12th 2012, 14:58
Mr Pulis, I am not going to wste my time with arguing, but I just want to point one thing out -- the Pope DOES NOT place himself in god's place on earth (this gives an implication that the Pope sees himself as god's equal)... He is his 'temporal manager' so to speak. and i would believe that many of the major decisions are arrived at with consultations with cardinals, council, whatever
Edward Clemmer
May 12th 2012, 15:41
Religion (or belief in God) is not simply indoctrination or a cultural identification, as you seem to suggest. Granted, there are nominal believers for whom "religious belief" is a cultural or personal identity. However, in true "religious faith," the believer is actually bound (or connected or linked) to God. Many individuals, including Muslims and Christians, are bound to God by their living faith; and Christianity is the (New Testament) development of the Jewish (Old Testament) religion, same faith in the same God. A cultural Muslim may regard others as non-believers or apostates. But, any believer in the one true God will recognize the same divine Spirit in the heart of all believers: all who are children of Abraham by faith, and like Abraham maintain their hope (and belief) in Christ. Now that Christ has come, those are saved who believe in God's Son, and in the Father who sent him, and through the Spirit, whom they send into the hearts of those who believe in the name of Jesus. Sincere Muslims and Jews are not atheists any more than Christians (relative to other religions), but many nominal Christians, Muslims, and Jews, are atheists. Not all secularists are atheists, either, although many secularists are agnostic or atheist. But there is divine revelation: and, if we accept Jesus Christ for whom he is, not all religions are equal.
Victor Pulis
May 12th 2012, 18:38
You forgot the Holy Ghost who illuminates the Popes in their decisions! i wonder what illumination he bestowed upon the Borgias. What sort of god would need a mere mortal to represent him on Earth!
A temporal manager for god! very interesting title.As if we're dealing with some company or earthly organisation.
Martin Cassar
May 12th 2012, 20:41
@Victor Pulis
You keyed in:
What does an atheist do? He denies the existence of God.
.....................................
How one can deny the existence of something unless that thing in question actually exists?
Victor Pulis
May 12th 2012, 20:43
You mentioned just the people of the book Christians, Muslims and Jews. Why ignore all other religions who are not children of Abraham? Are they condemned? Of the three monotheist faiths only Christians recognise Jesus as the son of god and god himself. "Those are saved who believe in god's son and in the father who sent him." and who are these? So even Muslims and Jews fall under the category of the condemned.
To the Muslims the koran is Divine revelation and to the Jews only the old testament.
Mike Abbot
May 13th 2012, 14:17
"How one can deny the existence of something unless that thing in question actually exists?"
Facepalm
Kevin Cassar
May 12th 2012, 12:50
If faith is a "gift from the creator god" then why is it necessary to indoctrinate children before the ages at which they have the faculty of determining what is real and what is make believe?
Karl Consiglio
May 12th 2012, 15:50
Ezatt, and once you been baptized they count you as a believer, even when you grow up and seize to believe, they will still count you in that "majority" that makes Malta a "Catholic country". Its so unfair.
Victor Pulis
May 12th 2012, 12:46
You criticise what you call church bashers and defend yourself by saying that the church is made up of sinners. So where's the bashing?! is our criticism justified or not? If there's an institution that is expert at bashing people it is precisely the church. it condemns non believers and believers in other religions to hell. Aren't we all sinners? You say that faith is a gift and it is up to the individual to accept or reject it. So why do you tell people to pray for those who have rejaected this so called gift? And by the way, what is the official position of the church on the supposed apparitions at Medjugorje?
Mr leo attard
May 12th 2012, 15:07
mr Pulis, the church does not say non believers, followers of other religion go to hell -- some priest might have said it, but that is not the church's offical statement. Sinners go to hell - who the sinner is is left to God's judgement, not man's ( in my opinion, the only sinner that Christ ever really expressed outright anger against was the hypocrite because that is not a sin of weakness but one of deliberateness... as to Medjugorje, if i am not mistaken, it is under investigation and therefore the church cannot give out an official statement --- it's not like the Middle Ages, the church has a lot of enemies and has to be very wary...
Victor Pulis
May 12th 2012, 18:55
the gospel of Mark says it. The church does say who the sinner is on number of occasions. The living in partner who isn't allowed communion, the gay couple, If Medjugorje is still under investigation (and I bet you it will continue to be under investigation just like the shroud of Turin for many many years) why does Ms. Abela use it to put forward her argument?The church does have a lot of enemies. the worst ones are from within.
Mr leo attard
May 12th 2012, 22:17
oh yes, Mr Pulis, i was going to say that myself before ''the enemy within'', and you know what? -- that was one of the prophecies of fatima: roughly, the church will suffer because of her own children. abuse has occurred and will continue to occur -- the Borgias were just the tip! One can refer to the babylonian captivity when there were 3 popes, all claiming to be the legitimate one, and that's not including the pope (patriarch) at constantinople..... But, Mr Pulis, all this doesn't subvert faith which is the personal relationship between man and god....In the Bible, christ himself accused peter of ''little faith''... there is no answer either way... you yourself might not even know the true cause of your atheism as it lies in your subconscious, just as my faith with its share of doubts lie in mine and no one can be arrogant enough to claim to know what goes on in the subconscious! not even a good psychiatrist can get at a DEFINITE answer!....take care
Victor Pulis
May 12th 2012, 12:38
Before anyone rushes to false conclusions, Her definition of a believer is one who has a personal knowledge of the love of God, one who listens to God and communes with Him. Vivienne Abela.
And this is what the gospel of Mark says.
" He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." Mark 16: 15.16
This is what Mary's son Jesus is supposed to have commanded his apostles.
Vivienne do you believe that all those who are not baptised are destined for hell as it specifically says in the bible?
Ramon Casha
May 12th 2012, 14:04
According to the gospels, a true believer is one who can handle venomous snakes without danger, can drink poisons without harm, can cast out demons and can heal sick people by placing their hands upon them. :)
Edward Clemmer
May 12th 2012, 16:11
The quote from Mark's gospel is "whoever does not believe will be condemed." It is not "whoever is not baptized." There are many forms of baptism: by water, by blood, by Word. Peter and the other disciples (not Iscariot) were baptized by the Word (not by water), "One who has bathed does not need to wash, except for the feet, butg is entirely clean. And you are clean, though not all of you" (Jn 13:10). The issue is that only those who believe (in faith) will be saved (and baptism has its forms, especially by water): and, accordingly, Abraham was justified by his faith (Rom 4:3), and all who believe in Christ are children of God in the same faith. And after Christ, all "children of God" have Mary (Daughter of the Father, Mother of the Son, and Spouse of the Holy Spirit) as their spiritual Mother (Jn 19:26-27; 1 Jn 3:2).
Victor Pulis
May 12th 2012, 17:56
They can also move mountains! Not many true believers about I see!
Victor Pulis
May 12th 2012, 18:45
Here's the cut and pasted passage from the bible.
15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
First one must believe to be baptised. it's not the other way round. Whoever believes and is not baptised is not a believer.I'm always amused at the way believers try to twist passages from the bible to prove their point! Some days ago I was talking to a friend and when I asked hoim if non christians go to hell just because they're not baptised he came up with the theory that there is another heaven for them. When i aked him why animals suffer he also invented a heaven for them!
Edward Clemmer
May 13th 2012, 08:54
Victor, the criterion for salvation is even stricter than you suggest (baptism); not only baptism. Jesus answered Nicodemus, "Very truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above....Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be astonished that I said to you, 'You must be born from above.' The wind blows where it chooses, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit" (Jn 3:3, 5-8). And elsewhere, "It is the spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life" (Jn 6:63). And he said, "For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted by the Father" (Jn 6:65). And, on the night before he died, Jesus told his disciples, "When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, thed Spirit of truth who comes from the Father, he will testify on my behalf. You also are to testify because you have been with me from the beginning" (Jn 15:26-27). As Jesus told the Samaritan woman at the well, "Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You worship what you donot know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But the hour is coming, and is now here, when true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such as these to worship him. God is spirit and truth, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth" (Jn 4:21-24).
Amen, from the Son of God, for all the children of God. As John writes in his first letter, "By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. And this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming; and now it is already in the world. Little children, you are from God, and have conquered them; for the one who is in you is greater than the one in the world; therefore what they say is from the world, and the world listens to them. We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and whoever is not from God does not listen to us. From this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error" (1 Jn 4:2-6).
Roger Tirazona
May 12th 2012, 12:21
Credulity is the tendency to believe in something baseless and/or without evidence. Useless trying to emancipate it by calling it "Faith". That's what it is. Calling a spade a spade is not an insult. However I defend people's rights to be credulous and belong to a faith.
Claiming that one supports an idea, does not need to have a specific aim, or should be interpreted as an attack. It is merely making oneself counted and make others aware that other ideas exist. The intolerance of ideas and self-victimisation from these ideas are nothing less than outright bigotry.
Actually criticising the church is what many church members do. Your "church-bashing" claims are nothing more than further self-victimisation. People like me are actually critical of all religions, not just the church. Granted that the church is made up of human beings; the problem is that these fellow homo sapiens expect to teach others right from wrong. And no, the vicar of christ actually thinks he is infallible and incapable of mistakes under the theology of infallibility.
Oh the old chestnut; "no such thing as an atheist." It's like communism is against what I believe in, so I decide that communists don't exist. "Then, with his next breath, he will set himself up as a god and woe betide whoever does not see eye to eye with him." - actually people are kneeling in front of the pope, not in front of me.
"Her definition of a believer is one who has a personal knowledge of the love of God, one who listens to God and communes with Him. " - Imaginary friend anyone? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imaginary_friend
Richard Caruana
May 12th 2012, 11:27
Both the so called believers and the so called atheists are funny people.
First of all, I am a believer in God to make it clear from the beginning.
The so called believers are always trying to prove to other people that god exists, thus actually themselves defeating their strongest weapon which is faith. Apart from that, even Jesus said that you cannot force anyone to walk after him so please stop that that, you are getting the very opposite effect. And please, stop always quoting from the bible to atheists. Its pointless to try to convince by quoting from a book (which humans like us wrote) which the atheists do not believe in the first place and it is also stupid. Also please stop mentioning miracles that never happened or where misunderstood. A real believer does not need miracles to have faith in god.
Regarding atheists, what is your point exactly? You have to live a good life like Jesus said or else you will be going against the law of the country (by doing something illegal) so there you are already half way. Lets use some maths here. If you pray and go to church regularly, you will be *wasting* at most a couple of hours a week in exchange for eternity as a reward. If eternity does not exist, well think of those hours as cultural activities.
Regarding the attacks on the church, are you for real? So we do not judge right? Ok Vivienne how about you write in here your address and telephone number and if some criminals come to your house and do what they want to do, you do not judge them and not even report them to the police? How about I call you a couple of names in here and you do not judge me? Please lets not be ridiculous when we want. They are subject to the same law as us and are more subject than us to the laws of God, hence why if they break them (and how did they break them) a much bigger fuss is made.
Mr Duncan Scerri
May 12th 2012, 12:14
"If you pray and go to church regularly, you will be *wasting* at most a couple of hours a week in exchange for eternity as a reward. If eternity does not exist, well think of those hours as cultural activities."
Pascal's wager. Pretty lame-arsed god who would not be able to see through what amounts to a blatant lie. Then again, what if there really is a god, but it's Zeus and now he's really narked off that you've been worshipping a Jewish god all those years?
You'll see so much more of what is real if your stand up and look around, instead on getting on your knees and closing your eyes in prayer.
Take those couple of hours a week you spend at church and go do something really worthwhile helping your fellow man. Mumbling at a carving of a dead Jew achieves nothing for humanity.
Karl Consiglio
May 12th 2012, 11:03
Does Viviene Abela believe in the prophet Mohammed as well? If not then she's an atheist too.
Am Camilleri
May 13th 2012, 17:33
Well someone wrote the Koran - or do atheists not believe in the existence of such a book?
Mike Abbot
May 12th 2012, 11:02
"I personally have never been able to decipher what is the aim of all these repeated declarations. Is anybody stopping anybody from being an atheist?"
and yet here you are bashing atheists and declaring your belief.
with phrases like this: "The term atheist is a misnomer. What does an atheist do? He denies the existence of God. Then, with his next breath, he will set himself up as a god"
and you wonder why atheists feel compelled to write? really?
Karl Consiglio
May 12th 2012, 10:55
@Vivienne Abela,
You speak of your religion, particularly the Mother of God, and non-believers, but how do you feel about other religions, what do you think of the prophet Mohammed for example? If you don't believe in the prophet Mohammed then in that regard you are an atheist too.
Eric Soames
May 12th 2012, 10:53
The very expression 'Mother of God' belittles the supremacy of the God you defend. It should make a believer cringe! Wasn't there something in Scripture about not wasting time with those who do not believe or want to hear and 'you are to dust the sand off your sandals' and hightail it out of town? Yet, here you are in the dusty village square yammering on. Also, while on Scripture, isn't it the job of the Holy Spirit, not mere Mortals, to convince people?
Pauline Peterson
May 12th 2012, 11:48
@ Eric Soames. Well written. I agree with your posting.
Ramon Casha
May 12th 2012, 10:48
If faith is "neither caught nor taught", then why are children subjected to indoctrination sessions at all church and state schools, supplemented by extra indoctrination sessions in the evening courtesy of Museum not to mention compulsory attendance to mass? In total, for most years children receive more hours of indoctrination then they spend learning science or math. If faith (in the right religion of course) were truly a gift of God, then why is it that in North Africa people are more likely to be Muslims, whereas in India they're likely to be Hindus? Does God not distribute his gifts equally to all?
As for "trampling on what you hold sacred", that really depends on what you hold sacred. If you believe that denying equal rights to gay people is sacred, or that preventing people from using condoms and other contraceptives is sacred, or that forcing people to extend a painful and ultimately terminal illness against their wishes is sacred, then yes I am going to trample on what you hold sacred. If you believe in talking snakes, or that rainbows are colourful reminders placed in the sky by a forgetful god to remind himself not to drown the entire world again, or that a man spent three days living inside the belly of a fish, then yes I will ridicule your beliefs.
There have been no letters by atheists describing their cleverness, nor have there been any atheists who set him or herself up as a god. Isn't it against your rules or something to lie about other people? Is that the way that devout believers approach unbelievers - to lie about them?
Jillian Pace
May 12th 2012, 12:37
well said!!! i couldn't have said it better myself!!
Am Camilleri
May 12th 2012, 14:28
Nobody holds those things sacred, Mr Casha, and nobody bases their beliefs on the talking snakes etc. Surely all atheists' letters aim to show how clever they are and how stupid the rest of us are? Personally, what I dislike is the insistence that there is no God and that my experience of Him is imaginary. I also dislike atheists telling me what rules I follow, what the Bible is saying to me and how I should bring up my children!
Ramon Casha
May 12th 2012, 18:44
@Am Camilleri: Be careful about your liberal use of the word "nobody". Yes, there are Christians who believe these things literally and hold them sacred, and they are not a few fringe lunatics but mainstream branches, which operate even in Malta.
If the letters demonstrate greater "cleverness", that's not the same as "describing their cleverness".
I haven't seen any letters from atheists telling you how to bring up your children, or telling you what rules you follow. but anybody can read the Bible and determine what it says, and obviously atheists are going to point out the complete lack of any evidence pointing to the existence of any god. This does not prove the inexistence of gods, but it does make belief in gods rather irrational.
W Cassar
May 13th 2012, 11:33
@ AM
"what I dislike is the insistence that there is no God and that my experience of Him is imaginary."
I agree with you ... I dislike the insistence by Catholics and the like that come knocking on my door or throw leaflets in my letterbox. That I am some what misguided and cannot see the light and I am going to hell!
Am Camilleri
May 13th 2012, 15:29
@ Ramon Casha - eh? you need to look up the meaning of 'sacred'. Catholics and many others hold the dignity of the human person as sacred and all those things you mention are contrary to this. Even those who may believe your examples to be right and just, cannot hold them sacred. And yes there are people who take and believe the bible literally - and you yourself seem to insist that's how everyone should be - but like you say - they do not base their faith in, their BELIEF ON God on these things. Belief on God is based on experience of Him and then the Bible written thousands of years ago but relevant to us today works as a guide, needs to be interpreted by experts of hebrew, greek, history, ancient societies etc . . . as opposed to someone like you who insists He should have spoken in the Queen's own language!
The writer didn't say atheists were "describing their cleverness" you did - the author said that atheists letters announce their cleverness.
Am Camilleri
May 13th 2012, 15:36
@ W. Cassar - I'm not sure what you have done or said for someone to tell you that you are some what misguided and cannot see the light and that you are going to hell, but if you are simply a loving caring atheist then they are wrong.
Karl Consiglio
May 12th 2012, 10:46
"I personally have never been able to decipher what is the aim of all these repeated declarations. Is anybody stopping anybody from being an atheist?"
Have you never heard Catholics reciting the rosary? Now that's repetition.
Karl Consiglio
May 12th 2012, 10:44
Its got nothing to do with lack of education, its only natural that the religious see atheism as blasphemous and Atheists see religion as an insult to one's intelligence. Regardless of how respectful one tries to be, one is always going to somehow offend the other if their views are so entirely opposite.
Patrik Larsson
May 12th 2012, 10:27
Wow, a letter that starts complaining that atheists insult believers, then declares the same atheists as lacking education. Are we to take anything seriously after that?
Please choose the reason of your report below: