Curia refuses to delete details of ex-Catholics
The Curia has refused a request to delete details of 23 people from its baptisimal and other records, Not In Our Name, the organisation founded to help baptized ex-Catholics dissociate themselves from the Church, said.
NION, which made its request to the Curia after these individuals legally empowered it to undertake this task on their behalf, said it will be informing the Data Protection Commissioner about the situation.
The Curia's reply refused to recognise NION as the legal representative of these individuals in this matter, and offered to instead annotate the baptisimal register only for the person acting on behalf of the others, the organisation said.
It said that this annotation would presumably indicate that the person in question left the Catholic Church.
"The Curia refused to delete the data using the argument that the data was processed according to law and that this information is used only relative to the administration of the Holy Sacraments, and is not disclosed to anyone except to the persons mentioned in the registration of the sacrament.
"NION wishes to express its disappointment with regards to such reply.
"By not recognising NION as an attorney, the Curia is creating unnecessary bureaucracy and inconvenience to discourage people who wish to take this step."
NION said it also disputed the fact that the data had been processed according to law, since, the individuals represented by it withdrew their consent from it being processed.
NION said that annotation of the baptisimal register could result in a black list of individuals, leaving them exposed to victimisation on religious grounds. It believes it is the right of these individuals to request the deletion of their personal data, especially when they do not trust the Church to administer the annotated data in their interest.
"NION thus wishes to announce that it will be approaching the Data Protection Commissioner with the intention of securing the rights of the individuals it represents and to ensure that the Church is not exempt from the rule of law."
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Mr leo attard
Jan 10th, 20:19
@emma xerri... the USA will allow an atheist to become president as long as the majority backs you ( hey, they said the same thing about blacks --- Obama!) you have the gall to say they dont tolerate gays when gays are allowed to marry and hold among the largest gay pride events in the world! my word how pissed off you get by fairytales! and this shows your lack of rspect and arrogance -- why do you call the beliefs of others as 'fairytales'? I never insulted your atheism. that's the american idea of tolerance -- I state my opinions without disrespecting those of others, but YOU, you have to go around calling names. does it give you a sense of intellectual superiority? If your parents are innocent victims of indoctrination, well so are the priests and other officials of the church ( you said so yourself, if your parents are innocent, well it stands to reason that priests are victims also and their ancestors all the way back to -- back to who?)... as for jefferson, you say he insisted on sparation of church and state -- not the destruction of the church, not the abolition of religion. Funny too how american currency bears IN GOD WE TRUST and God is prayed to in the pledge of allegiance, although for that reaon saying the pledge has been removed from many places... so you see, the USA does respect atheists and even tolerates satanic cults (as long as there is no killing etc...)
Mr leo attard
Jan 8th, 20:13
to those who think those who believe in religion dont want atheists to leave the church, all i can say that that is a big crock of poop --- Come on, keeping the likes of you on board is just as much an asset to the church as frank debono is to the PN -- better out than in! .... to those who claim it's unfair to expose babies to religion, well that is a situation without answers. Children are indoctrinated into party politics, parochialism, football clubs, etc etc... There is an interesting article on Twins in this month's National Geographic and I read an interesting comment: some studies show the possibility that religious fervor could be in the genes; in other words, one's sense of religion or lack of it is an inherited trait... I am not the one saying this, scientists are!
Matthew Grima
Jan 9th, 11:43
You're putting football clubs in the same line as religion?
And what you say about one's sense of religion is inherited, that only means one thing. Reason or the lack of it, is inherited.
Mr leo attard
Jan 9th, 20:13
@matthew grima.... now the question is: who is being unreasonable. as regards the football thing, well, if you can read I wasnt putting football on par with religion, just to point out that supporting a football club is another form of indoctrination. so please, stick to the point I am making above which is no one is forcing anyonbe to stay anywhere and that one cannot put a newborn baby in a glass bubble to stop it from being 'indoctrinated' so to speak.
Emma Xerri
Jan 10th, 18:46
But Leo, football clubs do not presume to know the answers to all life's mysteries and to manipulate governments and society in order to gain total control and temporal power and wealth - but religions and the churches that sprout from them do! Do not mix apples and oranges and above all do bot obfuscate the issue.
And of course the Church does NOT want its members to see the light of reason and go atheist, that would mean they would be losing their market share - if they could they would bring back the Inquisition and use capital punishment for heresy and apostasy, just like the good old days when they were left unchallenged and like it still is in another religion of peace that shall remain nameless. The big crock of poop is the invented fairytales that religions have brainwashed people with and which you cannot find the intellect to get under from.
Mr Gabriel Grech
Jan 8th, 09:00
@ Anthony Galea
I know quite well what the Catholic “faith” is all about. That's why I prefer to abide with the Bible and keep away from their unbiblical beliefs. I invite you to subsentiate the original sin tale with Bible verses.
You said that Jesus Himself “chose” to be baptised. Isn’t that confirming what I said?? He wasn’t forced to do so like we were.
Richard Brown
Jan 7th, 22:51
Dearie dearie me, what a lot of steam has been let off! And how offended and hurt the Catholic posters seem to be.
I'm not Maltese, though I love the island dearly, and neither am I (or ever have I been) a catholic. So I'm not involved in the problem at all, even though I follow it with some interest. Maybe I'm the ideal outsider to arbitrate here?
The issue is really very simple. If you believe in the permanent effects of infant baptism, then you shouldn't worry about the registers, and whether the information they contain is right or wrong, defaced or befuddled, or even whether the registers themselves are downright destroyed. You believe that the Good Lord is perfectly capable of distinguishing his own, without the use of spectacles. So- as a good catholic, and from a theological point of view- you shouldn't care about what are, when all is said and done, merely some scrawlings and scribblings on paper. The scribblings have no theological value at all. (The issue of altering the historical record is different, and I'll deal with it in a moment.)
If you're not a catholic, in virtue of choices made as an adult and despite having undergone infant baptism, then you too don't care about the indelible spiritual mark because you don't believe in it.
However, the information contained in the registers is personal data. It allows anyone who reads those registers to learn about the personal religious history of the people mentioned. Modern practice, upheld by most European Union legislations, allows individuals to control what personal information about them is held by any organisation. Let me just repeat that: any organisation, including the church. The basis of this modern legislation is the assertion that any personal information belongs to the people described, and not to the organisations who own the registers in which it is recorded. And this same modern legislation allows the people described to demand and obtain the obliteration of that information in such a manner that the organisation no longer holds any of it. The people described don't have to give any reason or justification for this, they can do it on a whim if they choose. After all, the basic concept is that the information is theirs.
But what about altering the historical record? Yes, that will happen. The historical record will be altered whether you like it or not. The present and real rights and interests of people described is held to trump the rights and interests of putative future historians. You might have questioned this point, if you wished, when the legislation was being drafted- but now it's too late as it's already law, and anyway you'd have been fighting an uphill battle. Contemporary culture always prefers the concrete today over the vagueness and vagaries of tomorrow.
So there you have it, in rather more than a nutshell. It doesn't matter if catholics don't like what non-catholics wish to do with their own information, because the non-catholics are going to do it anyway, sooner or later, and perhaps through the courts. (That really would be a waste of public money, however, and simply on these grounds the curia should shut up and bow down, in my opinion!) The curia knows this of course, because in the vatican they're not stupid and they know full well that they've lost this battle already everywhere else. But that won't stop them from dragging their heels and from being obstructionist and difficult, because those habits are just so deeply ingrained. Imagine: they didn't even admit publicly that they'd behaved badly to Galileo until the last pope.... but that's another story.
And all of the probably well-meaning (but actually quite offensive) strutting and posturing by wounded catholics (along the lines of 'why don't the arrogant atheists just sit down and shut up, instead of wasting their time over meaningless trifles?') won't change anything either, because in a modern democracy adults are generally free to waste their time in any way they please, as long as they don't break the law- and the adjustment of one's personal details in an organisational archive certainly doesn't do that.
The only rational course of action is to let them strike their names out, and be done with it.
Andy Farrugia
Jan 8th, 12:10
Any more steam (or gas) to let off, dear (ie)? Hilarious!
Steve Sant
Jan 7th, 21:58
Such thoughts and way of thinking be-little's your organisation and whoever you represent.
Manquareiel De Caveden
Jan 8th, 13:52
That's ok Steve Sant, many who fought for their rights received such pseudo-critique intended to discourage them. Thankfully it never works in the long run, the more change is resisted, the more it will overturn the status quo with force.
S Micallef
Jan 7th, 20:48
So you're leaving the church - stop going to mass and take yourself off the parish rolls and move on with your life. You were baptised, that's a fact that can't be undone, and it's documented, and sitting in a file with a bunch of other records that look just like it. Our church is notoriously low-tech and resistant to change, so the likelihood of them computerizing and centralizing these records and then actually doing something with that small bit of information they have is pretty low. Dwelling on a baptismal record is just giving the church the very power and authority you rejected when you left.
Manquareiel De Caveden
Jan 8th, 13:51
No, that is anyone's right and no argument will change that. Records must be deleted.
Mr leo attard
Jan 7th, 20:22
@Caveden and M Saliba...... sorry, it's your business if you want to drop out but you cannot change the past. can you undo the sacraments you received? Can you undo all those times that you said a prayer or whatever? If I get a sex-change from a man to a woman, can I say I want to undo the manhood before i had the change (please dont raise the argument of those cases where a person would say I WAS BORN A WOMAN ETC ETC ETC...) iF i get a divorce, does that mean I wasnt married to my ex? If I renounce my Maltese citizenship can the govt delete my birth certificate and all the details and experiences that show I was born in Malta? of course not, so be reasonable! Drop out of the church if that's what you want, but dont push it where you want past records deleted! I think it's illegal as well!
Reuben Zammit
Jan 7th, 22:15
Next time you want to unsubscribe from Vodafone or Go Mobile, or close all your accounts in HSBC or BOV, make sure to tell them you have no problem with letting them keep all your personal details. Since, you know, you were their customer after all and unsubscribing won't change history
Manquareiel De Caveden
Jan 8th, 13:50
Mr leo attard seems to equate the RCC with the State, that's his problem.
Mr leo attard
Jan 8th, 19:29
for your info i did unsubscribe from melita and i didnt even bother to ask them to delete any info. why? i only opened my mouth when they sent me a bill for a 2 week period after having left and i dealt with that. they stopped their services, they stopped billing and that was that...and dont avoid the issue: comment on the arguments i gave above. mmr Caveden, what's your point? an organization that is not state should destroy records in its archives? i accept the existence of atheists, it's atheists like you that cant accept the existence of a religion.
Mr leo attard
Jan 8th, 20:03
@mr caveden...You just keep on repeating: Church is not state. you want to do what is impossible -- to undo the past. can babies who were circumcised grow up and demand their foreskins replaced. If atheists feel they were unjustly forced intoa religion when they were tabulae rasas, then they should sue the parents.
Mr J Tonna
Jan 7th, 19:03
If someone buys a house and then sells it again. Can he ask the notary or the Public Registry to tear off the pages where his contract appears??
Steve Sant
Jan 7th, 21:59
Or a birth certificate for that matter ?.
Emma Xerri
Jan 7th, 22:25
This is not the same. When someone buys a house, he is doing it out of his free will and with full knowledge and consent. Whereas, most people were baptised when they were babies, without prior knowledge and consent. So yes in this instance, I believe that their baptism should be null and void.
Furthermore, I happen to believe that for baptism to be valid, it should happen when a person is a consenting adult. So remove indoctrination and faith based dogmas from all schools and for all faiths and let the adult come to the Church with his own two feet. (I dare say that this will never be done for religious leaders know full well that without the indoctrination - some call it brain-washing, that children and adults receive, they would never willingly join anything that is so bereft of reason, logic and good sense, such as a belief that there is a man up there who is keeping track of who has been good and who has been bad with a particular penchant for knowing all about their sex life. Pathetic that we should so flatter ourselves to think that the creator of the whole universe (if there is such an entity) should so concern itself with our naughty bits!
Reuben Zammit
Jan 8th, 11:48
Exactly Mr. Tonna, it's the Public Registry which keeps this information, a CIVIL department with its own clearly-defined rules, and as Ms. Xerri commented this is done with the individual's own permission. Are you comparing the Church to government now?
Mr leo attard
Jan 8th, 12:14
@ emma xerri...being born in a country you dont like is also against your will. you have no choice where you are born. so, according to your reasoning, then one should not belong to any country until they stand on their 2 feet and then they choose the country of their liking and become its citizen and all data relating to where you were actually born should be obliterated .... ha! ha!
Emma Xerri
Jan 8th, 20:38
@Leo Attard
It is funny how you do not see any distinction between State and Church. For this reason alone I think that you would be happy to take the advice of your own analogy, and move to a Theocracy such a Shariah State. You sure do not seem to belong to any of the countries that espouse Western democratic values.
Mr leo attard
Jan 9th, 20:26
@emma xerri... a pathetic jibe on your part, Ms Xerri, parroting mr caveden's church/state distinction... Believe me, I dont need you to tell me the difference and you are just circumventing my argument against your argument of not having had free will... were you treated unfairly, well sue your parents who taught you about religion. they are the real culprits... you're the one that needs a lesson in democracy because you cannot accept the fact that there are those who have religion; i have nothing against you. i dare you to find a tiem when i ridiculed atheists or even said they were wrong in their not believing... for your info, i was born and raised in the USA where religion, poilitics are personal issues to be respected...
Emma Xerri
Jan 10th, 07:40
@Leo Attard
First of all, I am not parroting anyone, especially Mr. Caveden, since the fact that you cannot distinguish between Church and State is obvious to everyone. (And to set the record straight, I had not even read Mr. Caveden's contribution until now that you have mentioned it).
Secondly, you state you were born in the USA, where religion and personal choices are respected. I beg to differ. Although the Founding Fathers of that great nation were atheists/deists and free-thinkers, sadly that country has now been taken over by Right Wing Fundamentalist fanatics who do not tolerate non-believers, gays or anyone who openly admits they are an atheist. I dare anyone to run for President of the United State and get elected if they openly declare that they are atheist or deist like the Founding Fathers. But to admit that you are a born-again evangelical Christian who believes in the Rapture will pose no problems to get elected into the White House! Americans are the number one believers in Angels and demons and all sorts of fairy tales such as Intelligent Design instead of Evolution - so it is no surprise to me that you are a 'believer' too.
However, please remember that engraved on the Jefferson Memorial is his vow of 'eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man" without mentioning that Jefferson said this while denouncing those that wanted to establish Christianity as the official religion of the United States. President Jefferson wanted to ensure the everlasting separation of Church and State. Another of Jefferson's quotes "Question with boldness even the existence of god" and ‘In every country and in every age the priest has been hostile to liberty, he is always in allegiance with the despot, abetting his abused in return for protection of his own… history I believe furnishes no example of a priest ridden people maintaining a free civil government…Political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves of public ignorance for their own purposes”.
And that is why I cannot blame my parents for having me baptised, for how are they to blame when they themselves were the victims of these unscrupulous purveyors of superstitious nonsense, which would be comical if it were not for the centuries of wars and bloodshed that these men of God of all faiths have been responsible for.
Mr Kevin Zammit
Jan 7th, 18:59
For those who keep saying that we are a secular society ... think again. The last constitution was agreed with the church. Article 2:
(1) The religion of Malta is the Roman Catholic Apostolic Religion.
(2) The authorities of the Roman Catholic Apostolic Church have the duty and the right to teach which principles are right and which are wrong.
(3) Religious teaching of the Roman Catholic Apostolic Faith shall be provided in all State schools as part of compulsory education.
Luke Lanzon
Jan 8th, 04:26
That's where we're going wrong religion should not be involved with the state............... I would really love too see how many people would actually be catholics if a priest didn't put water on them when they were a baby, my guess the 98% of catholic Malta would be decreased significantly.
Manquareiel De Caveden
Jan 8th, 13:48
Yes Mr Kevin Zammit however I suggest you also have a look at the Data Protection Act, which is based on more democratic standards rather than religio-political convenience.
John Spiteri
Jan 7th, 18:13
What utter nonsense. Another excuse to try and vilify the Catholic Church. What difference does it make if you are registered or not?
Manquareiel De Caveden
Jan 7th, 19:02
Defensive much? Anyway, yes it does make a difference. No membership, no data - simple.
Martin Saliba
Jan 7th, 19:16
If you were a registered supporter of a political party and fell out and registered as a supporter of another political party you would want your first registration nulled , no ?
Emma Xerri
Jan 7th, 22:03
This is not an excuse to vilify the Church. The Church has very ably done that to itself already.
Ramon Casha
Jan 7th, 17:41
Legally speaking... information concerning religion is classified as "sensitive personal data" by the data protection act. This includes the fact that a person is or was a member of a religion, as well as information that the person is no longer in that religion.
Churches have the right to maintain such sensitive personal information ONLY about members. Also, all individuals have the right to demand that any information held about them by any organisation be correct. If the church is listing these people as members, they have the right to demand that they no longer be listed as such. If or when they are no longer members, the church has no right to maintain any information about them, least of all sensitive personal data such as the fact that they were once members, or that they left the church.
Andy Farrugia
Jan 7th, 18:14
Tghidx aktar cucati!
matthew tanti
Jan 7th, 18:21
i don't think you are a lawyer bto be speaking legally!
Robert Micallef
Jan 7th, 18:40
Spot on!
Jo Camm
Jan 7th, 18:56
Details held by the Curia in its registers only indacates that we have been baptised in the Catholic Church. Nothing and no one can delete that. Even if these registered are altered the baptism will remain. Now weather you chose to live your religion or not is another matter.
Ramon Casha
Jan 7th, 18:59
The entire law is available from the justice ministry website (chapter 440). Please feel free to read it for yourself.
Manquareiel De Caveden
Jan 7th, 19:04
No baptism does not remain when one rebukes it. Now we are not talking about your stories about indelible spiritual marks and stuff like that. If you are happy to believe that, suit yourself, but about the very real legal aspects which will be and are being taken into account. Now if you think these are 'cucati' (sic), again, suit yourself, but this is not going to stop.
Mr leo attard
Jan 7th, 20:24
@Caveden and M Saliba...... sorry, it's your business if you want to drop out but you cannot change the past. can you undo the sacraments you received? Can you undo all those times that you said a prayer or whatever? If I get a sex-change from a man to a woman, can I say I want to undo the manhood before i had the change (please dont raise the argument of those cases where a person would say I WAS BORN A WOMAN ETC ETC ETC...) iF i get a divorce, does that mean I wasnt married to my ex? If I renounce my Maltese citizenship can the govt delete my birth certificate and all the details and experiences that show I was born in Malta? of course not, so be reasonable! Drop out of the church if that's what you want, but dont push it where you want past records deleted! I think it's illegal as well!
Mr leo attard
Jan 7th, 20:30
sorry to disagree, the church has every right to keep the data but should, i agree, update the data to ex-members. If I renounce my citizenship of malta, i have no right to ask the govt to dlete me from their birth registry, to delete info I attended schools in Malta, etc.... you never know when someone might or some govt agency would have to look at past records and if past records are deleted then the investigators would be getting the wrong information... Besides, let's say a person turns atheist at the age of 40, then it means that he was happily content to be one of the flock up to that age and has no right to have that deleted... when is this crap going to end?
Manquareiel De Caveden
Jan 8th, 13:38
Me Leo Attard I'm very sorry but I have to point out to you that the Church is NOT the government.
Mr leo attard
Jan 8th, 19:39
@mr caveden... i dont need you to tell me that the church is not the govt, but that argument doesnt justify your argument...if you were indoctrinated by your parents then i suggest you take up the fight with them, sue them in court....you have no right to ask the church or any other organization to destroy documents. you only have the right to stop them from using them without your consent...and you didnt answer my question regarding someone turning atheist at 50. why did such a person take so long? he was content to remain within the church after the legal age of 18. so the argument of ''being forced'' to practise the faith no longer holds water and why should the church alter / destroy documents to say you were not a member of the church at a time you were attending of your own free will? to satisfy your hate for the church?
Kurt Mifsud
Jan 11th, 09:42
@matthew tanti - you don't need to be a footballer to speak about football
Kurt Mifsud
Jan 11th, 09:43
@Jo Camm - I suppose that's the record of the all mighty... I thought he had a CCTV on all the universe!
Kurt Mifsud
Jan 11th, 09:48
@Leo - All you are suggesting is the church to be exempt from the law. The DPA states clearly that every individual has the right to ask for any personal data to be deleted from history. Even when you unsubscribe from anything online you have a box you can tick for that option. Why should the church differ since it is a private institution?
Ramon Casha
Jan 7th, 17:37
One of the most common characteristics of a cult is that they refuse to let you leave.
Mr J Tonna
Jan 7th, 19:05
Who said that many have left the Church. Only THEY are the losers.
Mr leo attard
Jan 7th, 20:35
there you go again with your little jibes by using the word 'cult'! like who is stopping you from leaving? is anyone tying you down to a pew to hear mass? in schools children have the option not to attend mass -- so no one is forcing anyone to do anything? it's atheists of your type that dont like the idea of others having a faith (or ''cult''' to use your slick jibe)
Luke Lanzon
Jan 8th, 04:15
@ Leo Attard
If one wishes not to go to mass at school there is no problem but if you don't go for the religion lesson you are marked as absent, cause yes religion is a must at that age unless you're not catholic, but I do not regret it, I had been (not literally) forced fed religion till I was 16 and then I saw another option science and between the two there's a difference, one always questions itself to find answers in other words science, and the other if questioned you go to hell because he works in mysterious ways...........
Manquareiel De Caveden
Jan 8th, 13:46
Mr Tonna, is that... a question? Please review your utterance as it does not make any sense.
Emma Xerri
Jan 7th, 17:16
So let me get this straight. It is OK for them to excommunicate you but it is not alright for you to demand to be striken off their register of membership?
matthew tanti
Jan 7th, 18:23
they don't shred your baptism certificate if you are excommunicated.
Mr leo attard
Jan 7th, 20:39
you have every right to be put down as an ex-member, no longer a part of the church. Up to this point i support you. what cant be done is delete records that you were ever a member. church records are like records in a govt registry -- they are updated and stored in archives, they cannot be destroyed which deleting them is.
Manquareiel De Caveden
Jan 8th, 13:44
No no no Mr leo attard... Church IS NOT government registry. Ok?
Victor Pulis
Jan 7th, 16:46
M. Zammit
Today, 15:44
Ceasing to exist as a person to the Public Registry equals ceasing to exist as a Catholic to the Church. Anyhow, once something has been committed, such as baptism, or anything else, you can't erase it. What could be done is to create a register of people who are no longer Catholics, but their baptism has happened, It Cannot be erased
Anything done without one's consent is null and void. That applies to babies too. baptism is imposed on Christian babies without them knowing what's happening. Nowhere in the gospels is there one instant of babies being baptised. As for the washing away of original sin...well...
Guido Farrugia
Jan 7th, 17:46
It must be erased because it was imposed on me, that simple.
Mr leo attard
Jan 7th, 20:44
you're right. so i didnt ask anyone to give me birth in malta, so when i become an australian citizen i will tell the govt of malta to destroy all evidence of my birth in malta, hey even the fact i went to school in malta! Duhhhhh! and does your argument also apply to those who turned atheist, who had their enlightenment, in midlife? give it a break.
Manquareiel De Caveden
Jan 8th, 13:43
Your 'argument' is laughable Mr leo attard, embarrassing even. You really equate the Church with the State! I didn't know they had internet in the middle ages!
J Gauci
Jan 7th, 16:20
@Ruth Azzopardi you asked ' where exactly do you practice your ''christian faith''?
Just read this : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ninety-Five_Theses
Victor Pulis
Jan 7th, 15:39
Once you're in you can't get out! Reminds of the song Hotel California! You can check out anytime you like but you can never leave!
Victor Pulis
Jan 7th, 15:30
Just wondering. If these persons get their way and their baptism is cancelled wil they go to limbo when they die?...Oh! I forgot limbo closed down some years ago!
Manuel Mangani
Jan 7th, 14:49
From a strictly legal point of view, are not the political parties and the Church exempt from the provisions of the Data Protection Act?
Albert Farrugia
Jan 7th, 14:41
These people are right. Since they are no longer Catholics, their baptisimal, confirmation, etc, details should be deleted from the Church Registers. And, while we are at it, we should also demolish all the palaces, statues and monuments built in Malta during the time of the Knights. The Knights have long left Malta. Having all those monuments around would make visitors think the Knights still rule the roost here. We might also go to the National Library and destroy all newspapers kept on record there. What use are they reporting on what happened in the past? And also, we should destroy all documents relating to people who have died. Why should we have documents concerning people who no longer exist? Let's move forwaard with the times.
Peter Shaw
Jan 7th, 16:27
you are mixing apples with oranges. These peoplr are asking to remove their personal data which is no longer needed. It is their right!
Mr Gabriel Grech
Jan 7th, 14:39
@Ruth Azzopardi
I practice my faith elsewhere. Jesus said that he will be present anywhere just as long as two, three meet in his name. Fellowship is not a monopoly of catholics.
Baptism is quite clear in the Bible. No child was specifically ever baptised in the Bible because a person is required to be able to choose to do it. Child baptism was introduced just for the sake of enrolling members in the catholic church.
For rest, Please read your Bible and find the answers yourself. Don't just gobble all the teachings they give you because much of it is just somebody's opinion. God’s perspective is his Word. It’s all written down.
Joseph Calleja
Jan 7th, 14:57
"Believe none of what you hear and only believe half of what you see!"
Anthony Galea
Jan 7th, 15:38
It's clear that you don't really know what the Catholic faith is all about-baptism is necessary because it washes away original sin. And for your information, Jesus Himself chose to be baptised like any person (yet these people are obviously above him).
However, I don't agree with the curia here. They clearly are no longer Catholics-so the Church should burn all their records and as far as the Church is concerned, these people shouldn't exist any more. When they die, their relatives could keep their ashes at home if they want, or have them scattered like the pagans did.
I see nothing wrong with that
Manquareiel De Caveden
Jan 7th, 16:44
Mr Galea there is no need for cremation. Any Maltese citizen can be buried at the national cemetery (Addolorata) whether Catholic or not.
Joseph Calleja
Jan 7th, 17:15
@ Manquareiel De Caveden
What is wrong with cremation? Except it is not legal in Malta? Cremation is the only way to go especially for the family. Once you are dead, you are dead and it does not matter if you are buried 6 feet under or cremated. In certain local cemeteries they bury you and then your body is exhumed after a couple of years to make room for somebody else. I consider that option to be obscene and irregular. My opinion of course.
Manquareiel De Caveden
Jan 7th, 19:06
@Joseph Calleja: Of course, I've never said there is anything wrong with cremation, just that anyone can be buried in Addolorata (Catholic or not) if they so wish.
Vincent Cassar
Jan 7th, 13:24
I'm just wondering: Does the data protection Act say anything about this? If a person wants his / her details to be deleted from an institution of which he / she was once a member but voluntarily decides not to remain part of and has no further obligations towards it, does that institution have the right to refuse?
A Bezzina
Jan 7th, 13:18
The mind boggles ... Don't these people have anything better to do?
Joseph Galea
Jan 7th, 14:34
Exactly!
Joseph Calleja
Jan 7th, 14:59
Maybe they do and maybe they don't. What is it to you? None of your concern.
Manquareiel De Caveden
Jan 7th, 15:22
Haha, what about you? Don't YOU have anything better to do? Reading AND commenting on an article about people who, according to you on your high horse, have 'nothing better to do'! Seems you've got caught in your own trap here A Bezzina and Joseph Galea. :)
A Bezzina
Jan 7th, 16:33
It took me 3 seconds to reply ... it took them far longer to engage in this never-ending useless saga! BOING ... just fell off my high horse ...
Manquareiel De Caveden
Jan 7th, 19:09
Are you sure you've fallen off A Bezzina? Never-ending? How? As far as I know this initiative has only been formally set off a couple of months ago. Useless? For whom? Certainly not for those who are requesting the deletion of their personal data and are claiming their right to this. Saga? I suggest you go back to your tv screen.
Victor Delceppo
Jan 7th, 13:14
Jahasra fhiex wasalna - x'hasbu dawn li b'daqshekk se jippruvaw xi haga ? Il-Mulej jieqaf maghkhom hbieb u j-Alla tifthu ghajnejkhom. Il-Kuria ghanda ragun u taf xinhi taghmel.
Luke Lanzon
Jan 7th, 14:45
My eyes are wide open and all I can see is something (religion) that is man made........... now why don't you open your eyes.
Manquareiel De Caveden
Jan 7th, 15:20
Nippruvaw? Issa tara. Inti oqgħod itlob u aħna napplikaw il-liġi ta' pajjiż li suppost sekolari.
Joseph Calleja
Jan 7th, 15:36
" Il-Kuria ghanda ragun u taf xinhi taghmel." Daqs kemm kella ragun fuq id-divorce? X'hinu l-iskop tal Kuria li trid bil-fors izzom ismek fuq ir-registru?
Mike Hunt
Jan 7th, 18:17
ok ... suppose instead of the church we're talking about some cult that sacrificed goats and worshipped chickens. And let's say that your parents signed you up as members to this cult when you were a few months old. Would you want to be able to strike your name off?
Peter Borg
Jan 7th, 13:13
The RCC is not above he law. The data protection act does not allow any entity ( with the exception of the state ) to hold personal details against the wishes of the persons concerned. This arrogance shows that the RCC had learnt nothing from the divorce debacle and as a result it will continue to fade into insignificance. The sooner this case ends up before the European courts the better. When will these people understand that they are not a national institution but merely the local agents of one particular faith,
JOSEPH ZAMMIT
Jan 7th, 13:08
I do not care if they delete my name or not--I AM NOT THE NAME! I am a soul that has grown.
Martin Saliba
Jan 7th, 13:06
@ Tanti & Vella ,why dont you petition so that children that are baptised without their consent are branded with a hot iron as cattle are ?
JOSEPH ZAMMIT
Jan 7th, 13:06
I am one of them.
@Ernest Vella--incidentally, it doesn't work like that whatever you say or believe, or whatever the church and pope says. The Holy Spirit does not belong to the Christian world--it is divine and universal and cares less of one's religiou beliefs. Holy Spirit belongs to Spirituality--religions are man-made. What counts is what one believes within him/herself and not some "holy" water on my head when i was a couple of weeks old.
I Bugeja
Jan 7th, 13:05
The curia is above the law therefore. Any organisation is subject to Data Protection and cannot keep data about individuals after a specified amount of time. I do not wish to think that the Curia will use this against the individuals However after the circus created about the lawyer who spearheaded the divorce campaign and was not let to practice in the curia's court... NION may have a point!
M. Zammit
Jan 7th, 12:55
how can you delete such a record? It's like wanting to commit suicide and wanting the Public Registry to erase every trace that you had ever been born, such as your birth certificate
Manquareiel De Caveden
Jan 7th, 15:23
The Church is not and is not supposed to be a Public Registry.
Victor Pulis
Jan 7th, 15:37
Why do you equate being struck off the curia books with suicide? Ceasing to be a member of a religion doesn't mean you no longer exist.
M. Zammit
Jan 7th, 15:44
Ceasing to exist as a person to the Public Registry equals ceasing to exist as a Catholic to the Church. Anyhow, once something has been committed, such as baptism, or anything else, you can't erase it. What could be done is to create a register of people who are no longer Catholics, but their baptism has happened, It Cannot be erased
Manquareiel De Caveden
Jan 7th, 16:45
Mr Zammit the Public Registry has absolutely nothing to do with this and yes it can be erased if the person no longer wishes to be part of this organisation.
Emma Xerri
Jan 7th, 17:20
Why do you mistaken membership in an organisation such as the Church with the Public Registry.?
The Registry is recording your existence by birth as required by Law and the other is recording a ritual and membership into a club. Are you then saying if I join a Gym membership and wish to get out, it would be impossible as it would mean that I was never born?
matthew tanti
Jan 7th, 12:21
nonsense. the curia is right in annotating the records: they will show that someone was once a member, and now is no longer so. deleting the records would amount be equivalent to saying that someone was never a member, which is not the case.
Saviour Sam Agius
Jan 7th, 13:06
But that is what other organisations are obliged to do, because that is what the law obliges them to do. The Church is not above the law and should, therefore, not be treated differently.
A Sultana
Jan 7th, 13:18
nobody asked me if i wanted to be a member or not
John Cassar
Jan 7th, 13:42
You obviously have no idea what the data protection act stipulates....
David Caruana
Jan 7th, 13:48
The Data Protection Act disagrees with you. The Act says that anyone who would like to erase his or her own membership from any group, has the LEGAL right to have his or her details DELETED from all records.
I guess this needs to be taken to the Commissioner and to the Courts if this is what the Church wants.
William Calleja
Jan 7th, 13:48
Member wish to invalidate their membership largely because as toddlers they were incapable of deciding on their own. Imagine how you would feel if at birth you were labeled with a political party that claims you 'membership, obedience and loyalty'
Manquareiel De Caveden
Jan 7th, 14:00
Not really, if I do not allow a company or organization to process my data because I want to leave this organization then they absolutely no right or permission to keep said data.
Joseph Calleja
Jan 7th, 15:30
This is Malta where the Curia runs the Church and the Government. Well at least that is how it has always been. I think that is why Dom Mintoff became a rebel.
matthew tanti
Jan 7th, 15:41
perhaps all you wise guys would like to quote that part of the act which entitles someone to demand that data re membership be erased
the age argument is likewise flawed. the parents hava parental authority over their children..when the child is of age, s/he can decide differently, but that does not make the parents' decision invalid.
Manquareiel De Caveden
Jan 7th, 16:46
matthew tanti we are not going to quote laws to your satisfaction, the law is there, look it up yourself.
matthew tanti
Jan 7th, 17:19
you'd better get off your high horse look it up, because there is nothing in which backs what you are saying.
Manquareiel De Caveden
Jan 8th, 13:40
Really matthew tanti? Does it make you feel better to think the law does not back what I am saying? Ok fine. However it does back what I and NION are saying and the Church is not above the law.
Ramon Casha
Jan 7th, 11:59
The church has frequently shown that it considers the law to be there for other people.
Mr Ernest Vella
Jan 7th, 11:55
ex-catholics remains baptized people, even if they rebuke their faith...they are marked with the Holy Spirit...will they sue also God for let them remain marked with his love.
Mr Gabriel Grech
Jan 7th, 12:48
I am Christian but certainly disassociate myself from the Catholic church. The Catholic church baptises children and claims it is the only valid one. In real fact, it’s not even the way baptism should be done according to the Bible. Biblically, for a person to be baptised, he has to repent of his sins and accept Jesus as his only saviour. Babies do none of these and so their baptism is void in God’s perspective. The Catholic church is just deceiving it’s members in making them believe it is the only authority and has monopoly on God’s sacraments.
Mrs Glorianne Pace
Jan 7th, 12:59
ha, so much for Free Will... what has the Church's register got to do with God's love!? Sounds like a plot for a horror film... once you were 'put' in you'll never get out...
W Cassar
Jan 7th, 13:05
What a load of potato mash!
L Calleja
Jan 7th, 13:13
you're free to believe iin whatever you beleive. but legally, these individuals have the right for their records to be deleted from Curia records. If wished so, so be it. Its a secular society
A Sultana
Jan 7th, 13:16
it's just water poured on our heads when we were not able to understand
Ingram Bondin
Jan 7th, 13:19
If you believe that baptism is transcendental, and cannot be removed, then removing its paper record will not affect its status. On the other hand, to a non-Catholic, the baptisimal register is simply a list of members on which he no longer wishes to stay.
Wally Vella-Zarb
Jan 7th, 13:23
Since they do not believe in your god, your flippant remark about suing him becomes irrelevant. Equally irrelevant is your claim that "they are marked with the Holy Spirit". It is as credible as when we were told, as little children, that if we do not tell the truth it would be written on our forehead! They are no longer children and have probably stopped believing in fairy tales a long time ago.
Manquareiel De Caveden
Jan 7th, 13:58
Mr Vella, best you take your hogwash elsewhere.
Ruth Azzopardi
Jan 7th, 14:06
@Mr.Gabriel Grech,
you said you dissociate yourself from the catholic church, so where exactly do you practice your ''christian faith''?
''so it is with Christ's body. We are many parts of one body, and we all belong to each other.''
Of the two duties newly weds vow on the altar one is to bring to life and educate their children in christian faith, so not baptizing their children would really mean making a false vow, in front of God.
Also, your abstract from the bible is only relevant to people already aged who are free to make their own decisions, ex in the time of the roman empire. Nowadays Muslims, Jews, atheist can be baptised in exactly the same way it was done and is still done. repent, ask for forgiveness, and become God's child.
ow and since when do you know what God's perspective is?..we're humans, with a humane view towards everything. God instructed men and women to go fill the earth and let there be teaching of the love Jesus Christ showed us from an early age. New pact. God on the cross, salvation from our sins, make a whole lot of difference, my friend.
Mike Hunt
Jan 7th, 14:11
I thought Malta was a secular state
Victor Pulis
Jan 7th, 15:35
And what effect does the holy spirit have on one's thinking? If these persons are marked with the holy spirit how come they're asking to be struck off the curia's books? i thought the holy spirit helped one to make good decisions.