Herman Grech
Clerical victims prepared to take case to European Court
Curia fails to respond to questions
Lawrence Grech addressing the press after the victims’ first meeting with Curia officials. Photo: Matthew Mirabelli
The victims of clerical sex abuse are prepared to resort to the European Court of Human Rights if the local courts dismiss their claims for compensation from the Church.
“We’re not going to stop here,” Lawrence Grech told The Sunday Times, eight days after the Church said it bore no legal responsibility for sexual crimes committed at a Sta Venera orphanage by two priests on 11 boys, now adults.
The two convicted priests, sentenced to a total of 11 years’ imprisonment and currently on bail, are appealing against their convictions.
Mr Grech and Joe Magro, another of the victims, said the group intended suing the Church for moral damages and – should they lose – would turn to the Strasbourg court.
Mr Grech insisted that during the first meeting between the Curia and the victims, Archbishop Paul Cremona had told lawyer Patrick Valentino to say how much was being claimed in compensation.
“Our lawyer left it up to the Curia to name a figure. At that point, the Archbishop made it clear he wanted to cooperate,” Mr Grech claimed.
However, in a surprise statement issued on September 22 the Curia said it had been given legal advice that “... in this particular case, (the Church) as an institution, does not have any legal responsibility for what was perpetrated by some individuals and that she (the Church) cannot take upon herself such responsibility.”
Instead, the Church said it would set up a structure that would include psychiatric, psychological and social professionals to provide the necessary help.
This fell short of the request made by the Vatican’s chief prosecutor, Mgr Charles Scicluna, whom it is claimed encouraged the victims’ lawyer, Patrick Valentino, to demand compensation.
Mr Grech described the Archbishop as a humble man who clearly wanted to help, but pointed at the people “around him” who stopped him doing the right thing.
Mr Magro said an additional lawyer has now been engaged to support Dr Valentino.
“What we are seeing is a gross injustice. We were first sexually abused, then faced delays of years until our case was decided, and now all we’ve got is an apology from the Church,” Mr Magro protested.
The Curia had a lot to answer for, including the fact that one of the sentenced priests was put in charge of a children’s home in Malta after fleeing similar charges of abuse in Canada, he added.
“The Church worldwide has given compensation to every victim of clerical abuse. Why not Malta? I fear this decision was taken to dissuade other victims from speaking out,” Mr Magro said.
Asked to respond to accusations that the victims were being perceived as gold-diggers, and losing public sympathy in the process, Mr Grech replied: “I ask these same critics – what would they do if they were in my shoes?
“If we just accept the Curia’s statement we’d have lost the battle. People ask for compensation even when they’re involved in an accident.
“Why shouldn’t we have that same right when the court established we suffered abuse which scarred us for life? I have a wife and children. Do you think it was easy for me to appear on TV and talk about my case? We’re being treated like garbage.”
Questions sent to the Curia last Thursday remained unanswered. Among others, the Curia was asked to reply to criticism that it was ignoring its moral obligation to award compensation to the victims, even if not legally bound to do so.
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Francis Saliba M.D.
Oct 3rd 2011, 12:08
Anybody contemplating the possibility of taking anyone else to court could not possibly be exagerated into a genuine item of news. These hopeful distant intentions rarely materialize but they are accorded a spurious "news" status most often when the intended victim is the Church. This is a thinly disguised propaganda boost to the anti-Catholic faction.
Could we have a little more respect for the intelligence of newspaper readers, please, and confer a news value to these remote hopes only when genuine action replaces vague desire?
Joe Brincat-LL.D
Oct 3rd 2011, 08:52
@ David Caruana. Go to echr.coe.int and you will find all the information. It is not only procedure, but there must also be a claim that human rights have been violated.
Suffice it to say that the ECHR receives so many applications. Up to September this year there were more than 56000. But only very very few make it to a favourable decision, if there is a violation of human rights.
Raymond Sammut
Oct 3rd 2011, 04:09
The Curia said it would set up a structure that would include psychiatric, psychological and social professionals to provide the necessary help.
In my view, this "structure" has in fact been in place for some 500 years. It operates pervasively all over Malta and Gozo. For example, many who commented below have clearly demonstrated that they have availed themselves in the past of this omnipresent structure.
In the meantime, the Curia did not answer when asked to reply to criticism that it was ignoring its moral obligation to award compensation to the victims.
Surely, "give" is more precise. If the Curia continued to insist that it should not give compensation to the eleven victims who have come forward, it would then be up to the Civil Court to award compensation; just like Civil Courts have already done in many parts of the world where men and women in general show respect for decency, proper civil conduct and fairness.
Mr Robert Callus
Oct 3rd 2011, 00:23
Even IF they are doing it for money, so what?
They didn't get abused for money, did they? They have been harmed, emotionally and physically and are still suffering the trauma. What's wrong with asking for compensation?
Legal arguments like those of Joe Brincat LLD are more than welcome. But those accusing the VICTIMS of doing this for money, trivializing the harm that these people have suffered are just pathetic, shameful and downright cruel.
The kind of people that would put the blame on a rape victim because she was wearing a miniskirt.
Ms Maria Vella
Oct 3rd 2011, 09:56
No doubt that they suffered a trauma and should be offered as much help as they can get (esp psychological) but, they should have been honest about their intentions, ie to get financial compensation from Day 1, and not first stating that it wasn't about the money and now it seems to be all about the money.
Mr Alfred Cassar
Oct 2nd 2011, 21:35
"We are not doing it for money" said Lawrence Grech a year ago.
"We're not stopping here, we just started, we want the money" says Lawrence Grech now
I agree the Church should offer as much professional help as required and why not some money where required. The priests involved did a huge harm to the boys and to the Church itself and they should be ashamed of themselves.
I never doubted their story but now I have some doubts, Why should a man ask the same person who did him so much harm to celebrate his marriage and why did he remain his friend for so many years. As always money blinds you.
Mr Alexander Galea
Oct 2nd 2011, 21:21
Everyone is doing the wrong comparison comparing employers to the church in this case. I was and still am in favor of the perpetrators being brought to justice as they finally were. However, blaming the church for this is just telling the church to close its charities down. Most of the children taken care of in church institutions including the victims (I am saying most cause I don't have any knowledge of their past) came from difficult family situations whereas if the church did not exist they would have ended in much worse situations. Nevertheless the victims never thought of suing their families that possibly abandoned them but want compensation from the church who did its best to offer them a home. Unfortunately nothing is perfect, but by claiming compensation the victims are only putting their credibility at stake.
J. Schembri
Oct 2nd 2011, 21:15
"Do you think it was easy for me to appear on TV and talk about my case? “ my answer is “yes”. You could have remained anonymous and showed us your silhouette and kept your privacy.
In my opinion this person was always after a quick buck.
The institute is a service provider , it is the governmental authorities which should have seen to it that the children under the Institute’s care were not maltreated.
Joe Brincat-LL.D
Oct 2nd 2011, 19:49
@ those who are saying that the case can be taken before the E.U. court !!
The European Court of Justice has jurisdiction within the limits of the Treaty obligations assumed by the States, that is when we joined the E.U. An example : could any Maltese citizen take the Maltese government before the E.U. court for failure to have divorce on the law book ? No ! Even in other fields there is no uniform law among all Members States. Nothing to be surprised, as this is also the situation in the U.S.A. Every state has its own laws.
Joe Brincat-LL.D
Oct 2nd 2011, 19:42
@Mr Joseph Calleja : "When you work for a company and you represent that company, then the company becomes liable." If this were always so, then all employed persons cannot be sued for damages. Either their company or their personal employer will be liable.
Our courts have even rejected claims against the Commissioner of Police and the Prime Minister as employers of police officers, who are according to law, on duty 24/7. If a police officer commits a crime, he is liable for damages, apart from the criminal action .
David Caruana
Oct 2nd 2011, 20:32
Can you elaborate on this case?
"Anthony Mifsud gets his compensation payment at last
Former prison warder Anthony Mifsud was yesterday finally compensated for being brutally tortured by the police and wrongly jailed for a crime he did not commit in the first step that should close his 28-year battle for justice."
http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20100226/local/anthony-mifsud-gets-his-compensation-payment-at-last.295734/comments:2
Joe Brincat-LL.D
Oct 2nd 2011, 21:17
Simple. That was a case about human rights recognised by the Constitution and the Convention. I have written elsewhere that moral damages are available in those cases.
David Caruana
Oct 3rd 2011, 07:41
OK, so the victims take the case to the civil court and it gets thrown out. Then they go the the constitutional court and it get thrown out as well. Then, having exhausted all the possible local solutions, they will go to the ECHR, in this case probably the charges would need to be pressed against the Republic of Malta for not granting the financial compensation from the church? Correct?
I'm asking as I cannot figure out why 2 lawyers would suggest to the victims to take the case to the European courts if as you say there is no way this could happen.
Philip Hili
Oct 4th 2011, 00:15
@ Dr Joe Brincat LL.D
Dr Brincat, b'kull rispett lejk. Ma tahsibx li qieghed tahsel ras il-hmar biex tahli l-ilma s-sapun u z-zmien??:)
David Caruana
Oct 2nd 2011, 19:23
My advise to these victims is to KEEP STRONG and never give up.
Requesting a financial compensation is YOUR RIGHT and never mind the ignorance, which seems rife on these islands.
For justice to be made, you deserve a financial compensation and it's not for these bloggers to decide and neither for the local courts which took 10 years for your case and liberated a paedophile criminal on a mere technicality.
Justice WILL BE delivered by the European courts.
Joe Brincat-LL.D
Oct 2nd 2011, 20:44
Which European Courts ? Pardon my ignorance, but I do not seem to be alone.
David Caruana
Oct 3rd 2011, 08:12
Civil court -> Constitutional court -> European Court of Human Rights (this time Lawrence Grech vs Malta)
Correct?
Joe Brincat-LL.D
Oct 2nd 2011, 19:14
@ David Caruana, lower down. Is my English so unintelligible, that you did not understand ? I repeat in very simple terms. The Diocese is not a State (and not the Vatican). So you cannot take the Curia to the European Court of Human Rights.
Can you sue the Vatican, as it is a State ? The answer is that you cannot sue the Vatican before the ECHR because the Vatican has not accepted the compulsory jurisdiction of the ECHR.
And I have not mentioned earlier in detail that the complaint must fall within one of the articles of the European Convention on Human Rights or its Protocols. Simple enough ?
As I was typing a thought passed my mind. Can a wife take her husband before the Industrial Tribunal for unjust dismissal from her old chores, as he found a new one ? If she does, she will be told that she was knocking on the wrong door.
David Caruana
Oct 2nd 2011, 20:24
Fair enough, I shall take your word and in the meantime I'll be waiting to see how the victims' lawyers will go around this if as you say this is just an illusion.
Michael Seychell
Oct 2nd 2011, 17:56
Can anyone give an estimate of how much it will cost these guys to take the case to the E.U. Court, and how do they intend to pay the expenses involved, considering that all but one do not have the financial mresources to do so.
Does this mean there is/are hidden hand/s ready to cover the necessary cost involved - if so can we see the face - or rather the person/s name/s.
Michael Seychell
Tal-Pieta
Mr Joseph Calleja
Oct 2nd 2011, 18:25
And how does that interest you Mr Seychell? Don't forget that those hidden expenses are included in the suit and usually loser pays all..
Sandro Pace
Oct 2nd 2011, 17:03
The Church could have been more generous in this case. It is true that it has no legal obligations for financial compensation, at least for now, but some adequate compensation could have gone a long way to heal the rift and close it all there, once and for all. Nothing wrong in calling for some money in such a case. These people went into a childhood ordeal and robbed happiness while in its institution. Some compensation would have now increased their happiness, or decreased unhappiness, even if it cannot regain childhood. On condition that all will end there, and that it will serve as no precedence.
I say this as a person who respects the church, and who sees more good than bad in it.
Mr Charles camilleri
Oct 2nd 2011, 16:14
Lawrence in the first instance you said that you are only seeking justice. Now that justice has been done it is clear that you were from the beginning after money.
Honestly i do not understand why the church in every country should pay compensation.
Why should a company be found guilty for the behaviour of its employees?
Mr Joseph Calleja
Oct 2nd 2011, 17:12
Mr Camilleri, justice will not be done until the two convicted pedophile priests are behind bars. It is very obvious that you do not understand why the church in every country should pay compensation. When you work for a company and you represent that company, then the company becomes liable. Your lawyer can explain.
Joe M Borg
Oct 2nd 2011, 18:03
Mr Calleja. YOUR lawyer can explain to you that there is STILL the appeal going on! It seems that YOUR lawyer is too busy at the moment to give you advice.
Mr Joseph Calleja
Oct 2nd 2011, 18:39
@ Mr Borg,
When pedophiles are convicted they are put in prison and they are kept there while awaiting their appeal, they are not set free to roam the streets. Read the word "CONVICTED" Maybe you do not understand the full meaning of the word Convicted. You are only innocent till proven guilty and that they were..
Joe M Borg
Oct 2nd 2011, 15:52
I can deduce from many comments that the 'victims' are losing a lot of support, because it is now VERY CLEAR that all they want is not justice, but easy money. I believe, like many comments below, that now this issue has been CARRIED A WAY TOO FAR.
There are still, however, many who want the Church to pay at all cost! Which money do they suggest? That which was given by the faithful, often after making huge sacrifices, to help as mission, the institutes, that charity?? Or are they suggesting that the church should sell some of her assets? Which 'asset' should she sell first? Maybe Dar tal-Providenza? Maybe one of the institutes?
If these humble bloggers think that they are holier than the Church, and that they can do the job better than her, how come NOT ONE of them has as yet offered to VOLUNTEER to work at Dar tal-Providenza, the Institutes, or the Missions run by the church? It is easy to dish one's hate on the church, and trying to make some mileage from this situation.
They are all crying for 'justice'. To make it COMPLETE justice, if the church is made to pay for the BAD she did to these guys, THEY should be made to pay for all the GOOD they received. Some spent 8-10 years receiving free education, free shelter, free food, etc....which was not given by who WAS DUTY OBLIGED to give them! But many want jistice ONLY done from the church's side. Some hidden agenda?
Mr Joseph Calleja
Oct 2nd 2011, 17:22
Mr Borg the church will be paying from the same purse they used to pay for the 200,000 euros to fight the divorce initiative, or from the same purse they are using to pay and is still paying for the defense of these two convicted pedophile priests. Nobody ever said that the church does not do a lot of good nobody is denying any of that and it shows everywhere, but that is not enough to show it's obligation towards these innocent abused men. Even Mgr Scicluna agreed that these men are entitled to monetary compensation. Why has the Curia changed their minds? I guess it will be left up to a court of law to decide if the men are entitled to compensation.
Mr Karl Consiglio
Oct 2nd 2011, 15:46
I think that its a good thing that the Church does not give them the money, otherwise there is the risk of children encouraging the abuse, so they get the money.
Mr Joseph Calleja
Oct 2nd 2011, 17:23
I hope you did not come to that conclusion all by yourself.
Joseph Agius
Oct 2nd 2011, 17:27
What a shameful insensitive comment. I am ashamed that you have the same nationality as mine
Joe M Borg
Oct 2nd 2011, 17:59
Mr Joseph Agius.
It is clear that you don't read much, especially foreign news! Is it possible that you have never heard of ANY case where false testimony was given, in order to get compensation. Like divorce cases, for example!
I believe that you are 'stightly' biased against the church!
R. Caruana
Oct 2nd 2011, 15:43
Without passing judgement, two things transpire from these cases. Firstly the victims will never be able to forget these horrific experiences but it's coming out that they will never forgive, I wouldn't wouldn't blame them for the latter either.
Secondly, I will stand to be corrected but to my knowledge church authorities in other countries have given compensation as a result of admitting to covering up such crimes or were discovered in doing so. If the church in Malta agreed to give compensation it would be an admission to the same hence would become subject to a legitimate criminal persecution, if not in that situation the people should call for it.
Maria Borg
Oct 2nd 2011, 15:29
Jien kieku mhux lil knisja infittex ghad danni morali imma lil genituri ghax fl-ahhar mill-ahhar il-genituri huma responsabbli ta' uliedhom.
Mr Joseph Calleja
Oct 2nd 2011, 15:22
These abused men should have gone to the European Court of Human Rights to start with. The Curia is not going to pay any money on it's own. The church in Malta is not like any other church, the church in Malta rules the land and still reigns in the old archaic ways. The church in Malta rules through ignorance and ignorance is bliss. Why are two CONVICTED (caps intended) pedophile priests who abused these eleven boys now men, not in prison while awaiting their appeal? Would they be out of prison if these two were not priests? The Curia spent almost 200,000 euros on the divorce initiative (Waste) but they can't find some money to compensate these eleven men for the pain and suffering caused by these two priests? Let the EU courts decide.
Ruby Jenner
Oct 2nd 2011, 18:36
Agree 100% Mr Joseph Calleja. I will be very suprised if these two priests serve one day in prison.
Mr Alfred Cassar
Oct 2nd 2011, 21:56
Mr Calleja, do you know how much these 11 people are asking for?
Did they tell you?
Mr Ernest Vella
Oct 2nd 2011, 14:44
Ghamlu li tridu u li joghgobkom. Issa alla jbierek, daqshekk jisthu u daqshekk cajt u cerimonji, issa front line ha nidhru halli forsi ndahhlu l-euros fil-but. M'ghadkomx iktar kredibli. Biex ikunu jafu minn qabel, euro li hi euro minghandi u ohrajn bhali mhux ser jehduhom, ghax la ma abbuzajna l-hadd mhux htija taghna li gejtu abbuzati.
Imma nsaqsi??? u nixtieq twegiba. Min fejn iridu dawn in-nies li l-Knisja taghtihom il-flus, meta il-Knisja m'hijiex persuna imma istituzzjoni maghmula minn hafna nies? Qed jippretendu li l-insara jtuhom il-flus huma? Qed jippretendu li jizzarmaw il-knejjes li gabru u taw il-flus ghalihom in-nies biex ituhom lilhom? Taghlaq djar biex taghti l-flus lilhom? Min fejn iridu li dawn il-flus jigu meta l-Isqof ukoll m'ghandux flus ghax hu Patri u ghandu l-vot tal-faqar...cioe m'ghandux flus li huma tieghu personali
Paul Fenech
Oct 2nd 2011, 15:06
Jekk inti tghamel operzajoni u ikun hemm zball car. Min ihallas id danni? L-isptar mhux it-tabib, avolja dak it tabib jbati l konsegwenzi ukoll
Bl-istess ragunament, il patrijiet li abbuzaw hadu l habs, biss il-knisja trid thallas tad-danni li saru l flus. U tinkwetax, fondi l knisja ghandha, izda issa f'salt ghal dawn il-VITTMI l flus sparixxew kollha. Dawn huma nies li min mindu kienu zghar it-tbatija f'hajjitom ma naqsitx, kellhom jghixu gewwa orfonatorju. Il qassisin hadu vantagg meta dawn kienu ghadhom tfal. Il-knisja missha kellha mezzi fejn tara li dawn l'atti ma jsirux, ghallura hi ghandha thallas!
Mr Joseph Calleja
Oct 2nd 2011, 15:30
Min fejn gew il-flus biex iggildu kontra id-divorzju? 200,000 euros? Mhux min butek?
Min fejn tahseb li gew il-flus ghad- defense ghal dawn iz-zewg qassisin? Mhux min butek?
Nixtieq twegiba?
Joseph Agius
Oct 2nd 2011, 15:49
Priests are legally contractually (by law) to their order. In fact they cannot for example apply to buy a house intheir name. It is not the Archbishop (how naive & ridiculous is that statement) that should pay but their order, The same order that had the thousands needed to pay out expesnive legal fees with the best legal team in the island. Why? Because the order is materially directly responsible for the priests in its fold. Therefore it is equally responsible for the damages they would have done when part of that order
Kurt Grima
Oct 2nd 2011, 13:21
U ma hadtux li ridtu issa aqtawha ftit ha tibqaw sejrin biha!!!!
Mr andreas bone
Oct 3rd 2011, 04:50
as if it was yourself the abused or any one else in this forum you wouldn't expect to be compensated right? give me a break, anyone would ask for the money, stop blabbering and playing saints, in the rest of Europe people get compensated for breaking a nail at work!. They got hurt and they deserve the cash, period. Cash makes life a lot easier, and its about time these people have it a bit easy, wars are started and never end for the sake of money without any value for human life, and the majority of you are scandalized because of the abused requests?.....you need to get out more often, not from your home but from this island!
Mr M Farrugia
Oct 2nd 2011, 13:10
dawn kull ma ghamlu ghal flus u xejn aktar u l-media maltija li fost kien hemm minnha b'agenda mohbija inqdit bihom sabiex tipprova thammeg il-knisja kattolika f'Malta. Ir-rizultat huwa li iz-zejt issa tela f'wicc l-ilma u l-Knisja ta Pietru f'Malta li waqqaf Pawlu se tohrog aktar qawwija.
Adrian Sacco
Oct 2nd 2011, 12:49
This whole sorry business has the makings of a major national embarrassment just waiting to explode.
Rightly or wrongly, in most western, developed countries it is accepted that a person who suffers physically or psychologically through another person's criminal act, negligence or recklessness has a claim for financial compensation even if there is no quantifiable monetary loss.
Right lyor wrongly, the international community, including fellow EU members as well as countries like the USA, Canada and Australia, where so many Maltese have emigrated, will regard Maltese law as primitive, backward and deficient in not providing for financial claims for "moral damages".
This is all the more so when in most other western countries crimes against vulnerable members of society, particularly involving any element of sexual abuse against children, are (rightly or wrongly) ranked as amongst the most heinous of crimes.
In short, almost anyone else in the outside western world would (rightly or wrongly) say that Malta has a great deal of catching-up to do.
Philip Hili
Oct 2nd 2011, 14:42
I think that nobody is against the victims claiming monetary compensation. But they should claim it from the right sources.
j brincat
Oct 2nd 2011, 12:12
John Zammit-Spiteri
"the church is not a company which is there to make business and money"
You are TOTALLY wrong. The church (ie our local church) has a bank of its own.
Possibly never heard of APS Bank?????
(jb).
Ms D Galea
Oct 2nd 2011, 13:05
did you not know that thousands of people of all classes , including working class, deposit their hard earned cash with APS and have house loans there?
Fran Abela
Oct 2nd 2011, 14:57
So what are you suggesting Mr. (or Dr. Brincat), that the Church uses the money of APS Bank, money that belongs to its investors to pay the victims ?
Mr andreas bone
Oct 3rd 2011, 05:07
Fran Abela, they can use the interests they gain from the loans, which you can trust is no Sunday mass collection.
David Caruana
Oct 2nd 2011, 12:10
May justice prevail and the real wolves in sheep clothing be unmasked!
Mr Carmelo Aquilina
Oct 2nd 2011, 12:02
Catholic chruches all over the world have paid compensation to victims because it was policy to hhide abuse, shiuffle abusers around and pretend it wasn't happening. The chruch was legally liable for the trauma it allowed known abusers to continue inflicting on innocent victims. Now why is the Catholic Church in Malta different from everywhere else ? Why are the victims of clerical abuse in Malta lesser legal beings ? This is truly a case of rending unto Caeser what is due to him as the Crhuch is a legal entity subject to all the rules that apply to everyone else. What is scandalous is the Church is going to make the victims fight for years for compensation like it made them wait years for justice. Shame !
Charles Busuttil
Oct 2nd 2011, 12:48
No. LACK of money is the root of all evil.
Ms Rudi Mcbeal
Oct 2nd 2011, 11:56
Aargh. Money, money money...
Money is the root to all evil.
Mr Joseph Calleja
Oct 2nd 2011, 15:04
Would you happen to have a million or two to spare? Give me the money. The people that say money is the root of all evil are the people that don't have it or people that have a lot of it and want to hold on to it. Try living without money Ms Mcbeal. Don't believe everything you hear.
Clara Cilia
Oct 2nd 2011, 11:48
First they wanted to get sympathy and justice( which i must say if things were done wrongly ..yes they had a right) but now all they are doing is for money!!!
T Sultana
Oct 2nd 2011, 13:24
Agree 100%
Joe Brincat-LL.D
Oct 2nd 2011, 11:47
Strictly on a legal point, and not on the merits of the persons who addressed the press.
The European Court of Human Rights is not a court of appeal from the member countries. It examines only whether there was a violation of the listed human rights in the Convention and the Protocols, for which the Member State is responsible.
Now is there a claim against the State of Malta ? I do not think so.
Therefore the only State which can be called to answer in the Strasbourg Court cannot be the diocese of Malta as it is not a State. A State is internationally recognised as a State. (See what the Palestinians are claiming) So I hope there is no question that the Diocese of Malta is not a State, internationally recognised. And It must be a member of the Council of Europe and signed the "right of individual application".
Some would say that then the Vatican, which is recognised as a State, even though not all countries would reply. But I am afraid this is not even the case.
In Pellegrini v Italy (a case decided by the European Court of Human Rights) that Court stated that it had no jurisdiction over the Vatican and its legislation (in that case it was about annulment of marriages), as the Vatican had only an observer status in the Council of Europe and did not sign and ratify the right of individual application to the Court.
I marvel when such things are printed. Some elementary information is enough to write a comment about access to the European Court of Human Rights, so that people will be informed correctly.
David Caruana
Oct 2nd 2011, 12:19
"In Pellegrini v Italy (a case decided by the European Court of Human Rights) that Court stated that it had no jurisdiction over the Vatican and its legislation"
So in layman's words - the Vatican and its boys are untouchable. They can do what they want and still get away with it if the local courts turn a blind eye to such crimes.
The police in Malta should raid the Curia's offices to get to the bottom of these cases since it is a known fact that the Vatican itself in the past gave clear orders to hide these reports deep in the curia's offices.
"Servanda diligenter in archivio secreto curiae pro norma interna. Non publicanda nec ullis commentariis augenda"
"TO BE KEPT CAREFULLY IN THE SECRET ARCHIVE OF THE CURIA FOR INTERNAL USE. NOT TO BE PUBLISHED OR AUGMENTED WITH COMMENTARIES"
Crimen Sollicitationes [The Crime of Solicitation]
VATICAN POLYGLOT PRESS
1962
http://www.multiline.com.au/~johnm/ethics/crimineenglish.htm
David Caruana
Oct 2nd 2011, 13:08
So when it suits them, the Vatican is not a State, but when someone calls for the arrest of the pope and his close hounds, they say that the pope is a head of State and therefore cannot be arrested?!?!
This boggles the mind.
Philip Hili
Oct 2nd 2011, 14:48
Prosit Dr. Brincat.
I am sure that it is not the victims who thought of the European Court of Human Rights, but it might be a new "taxi driver" who wants to make some money at the expense of these people.
Joe Brincat-LL.D
Oct 2nd 2011, 14:55
In laymen's term I cannot take David Caruana to the European Court of Human Rights. To fill my mind with the illusion that I can take David Caruana to the ECHR, may be a painful illusion, besides being an empty one.
David Caruana
Oct 2nd 2011, 15:15
So if David Caruana or the Vatican (or anyone down their chain of command) cannot be taken to the ECHR since these are NOT States, then why do we always get the excuse that the pope cannot be arrested since he is a Head of State?
It is also important to remind people that being proficient in the jargon of law does not necessarily mean being proficient in the jargon of justice. The laws do not always equate to justice.
The laws that prohibited african-americans in the past to use the same toilet or bus as white americans weren't just at that time and surely not just today.
What we're calling for here is simple. Justice.
Philip Hili
Oct 4th 2011, 00:11
@ Dr. Joe Brincat LL.D
Yes, I understand you, you are right.
Mr Carmel Farrugia
Oct 2nd 2011, 11:44
What say or responsibility have the parents of these people who for one reason or another left there children in the hands of third parties? If there were not Church institutions what would have happened to the hundreds of abandoned children here in Malta? Would we have finish like some other countries with children living of the streets. These people were given a roof and daily food and shelter, then some employees (of the Church) could have abused of their position -- this is still not finally proven as the appeal is still pending. The Church as an institution did more than its fair share -- some employees could have abused.
David Caruana
Oct 2nd 2011, 12:42
"If there were not Church institutions what would have happened to the hundreds of abandoned children here in Malta?"
The State would have provided for them, as it should have been in the first place! Do you really think that part of your taxes isn't already going towards these institutions even though they're owned and run by the church?
Do you really think that it's only the sunday offerings at Mass and the benevolence of the Vatican that are keeping these orphanages running?
"These people were given a roof and daily food and shelter"
These people weren't given just that. They were given a horrible experience which will haunt them, their families and their ability to get a better income, FOR LIFE!
D. Xerri
Oct 2nd 2011, 11:30
I just would love to see the reaction about compensation to all those who are saying its all about the money and bla bla bla IF IT WAS THEM being abused in their childhood - their innocence taken from them - the best years of someones life ruined and the never-ending thoughts throughout an entire life of such acts inflicted at childhood ! We live in a world where compensation is done with money - that is human reality - and everyone has to accept it ! If something was done towards a priest from another person or towards the church itself - Im sure the Catholic church would demand compensation - And dont come telling me it wont - People happen to pay with money on planet earth whether its the church - or me - or You ! So YES they have all the right to demand compensation since it was proven they were victims of abuse - and escpecially since abuse occured in their childhood years when their character was supposed to be forming up with the supposed help and care of these priests.
Fran Abela
Oct 2nd 2011, 15:02
I do not wish to enter into the merits of whether or not the victims should be given financial compensation because there is a lot to say about that. What I am interested to learn is more than that, how did they end up in the home, what about their parents ? If they unfortunately were orphans, then I do pity them indeed for their misfortunes, but if their parents dumped them in the home then they should look also look to their parents for compensation because they were in part the cause of their having been left in the home for life.
Mr P Pace Balzan
Oct 2nd 2011, 11:18
"Mr Grech described the Archbishop as a humble man who clearly wanted to help, but pointed at the people “around him” who stopped him doing the right thing."
.
Mr Grech ; Do you realize that you are attempting to depict the Maltese Archbishop as a "humble" puppet?
.
Mr Grech, Are you not aware that the appeal is still works in progress?
.
Mr Grech; Can you, for a change, tell us how (and how much) money will ease your pain?
.
John Zammit-Spiteri
Oct 2nd 2011, 11:14
What happened was unfortunate and the guilty persons were brought to justice and now are pending appeal.
What was the whole scope of this case? To grasp a finacial opportunity?
In my opinion the victims now have lost all sense of support from the Maltese community who were shocked initially at their horrific experiences. Now It is the victims themselves who are abusing and shocking the same community which supported them.
I was a bit amused to follow the case and see things unfolding because from the very beginning it was dawning on to us all that this was leading to finance. And now here we are discussing financial compensation? What will money solve?
I will still declare that sexual abuses are disgusting, but it makes this case tragic because the abused have now took the role of abusers themselves.
The Church did not perpetrate such acts. The church is deeply grieved at these horrible acts. I understand it tries to hide them! Who doesnt? ( it should'nt be so ) but knowing too well how much church haters would take advantage to spew their hatred and cause damage and influence those of inferiour maturity.
I support the Church because I am part of the Church. The Church has acted, even though slowly, but cases like these do take time. Christians world wide are not sexual abusers. It is a minute fraction who are, and We who arent, should not burden ourselves with financial settlements just because there are church haters who wish to dismantle an institution for their pleasure.
Joe Brincat-LL.D
Oct 2nd 2011, 12:01
Your point about hiding. You assume that it was the duty of anyone to report and take criminal action. That responsibility is on the individuals themselves, when they become 18 years of age. In this matter, of sexual abuse of children, we are dealing with the problem that it is attributed to ecclesiastics. But the law does not distinguish between ecclesiastics, teachers, tutors etc.
The responsibility to take criminal action rests with the police, if they are informed, and if the crime is punishable independently of the will of the victim. Does a father have a duty to report the young man who got his daughter pregnant and made her a minor but a single mother ? The answer is no. Does a mother have a legal duty to report, to the police, her husband who abused their daughter ? The answer is no.
Let's imagine that you live in a block of flats, and going up to the roof to watch the full moon, you stumble upon a minor daughter of one of the tenants having sex. Have you any responsibility to inform the police ? Have you any responsibility to tell her father ? I think you know the answers.
Ms D Galea
Oct 2nd 2011, 11:13
Finally Mr Grech has shown his true colours. So, it was all to do with money all along and not apologies from the Pope and church in Malta , Christian forgiveness etcetc.
Mr Carmelo Aquilina
Oct 2nd 2011, 12:08
No it is about his LEGAL right to compensation for damages from at best gross mismanagement of known abusers by the local chruch which knew that one priest was fleeing from similar allegations in Canada. Why does monetary compensation invalidate his case.
Ms D Galea
Oct 2nd 2011, 13:11
No Mr Aquilina, It is all to do with money and nothing else. Two years ago on tv Mr Grech stated categorically that he was NOT interested in money but in getting an apology from chruch and Pope and psychological help to aid him get on with his life.
Embroiling himself in years of litigation for compensation will most certainly not help him heal inside.
If he expects compensation from the church for his abuse, from where will the children who are regularly abused in families and elsewhere expect their compensation? From the state?
Mr M Mamo
Oct 2nd 2011, 10:50
There is a song by Kesha which goes: "it's all about the money, money, money ..."
frans camilleri
Oct 2nd 2011, 11:09
anke il il knisja it"s all about money
Joe Fenech
Oct 2nd 2011, 11:27
Are you saying they got abused for the money? Yes, money is needed to compensate a bit for the big damage these people suffered.
Mr Aaron Vella
Oct 2nd 2011, 14:18
It's Jessie J's not Kesha's. And yes they rightly deserve compensation for the abuse they suffered. At the end of the day, your likings of "the church is always right and those who oppose it, I will oppose them" is diminishing, so it's the reputation of the church which will suffer not these gentlemen who are asking for their just compensation. Min jaf kemm kont toqmos li kieku abbuzaw lilek jew lil uliedek, ma tantx kont tkantaha "it's all about the money, money, money" ux?
Joseph Agius
Oct 2nd 2011, 10:50
J. Aquilina
In your zeal to defend the "Chruch", you are misleading and
There are two issues here:
1. do they deserve compensation? It is ridiculous that this subject is even being discussed. If I am involved in a traffic accident, even though there is no intent, and I am hurt - I get compensation. No one even questions that. I get compensation from the driver or, by proxy, the insurance company with whom the individual would have made a contractual arrangement.
Therefore if a split second incident that gives me a broken arm deserves compenation, then how much more does physical and psychological torture carried out over years which will never heal - no matter what psychological support is provided?
2. The next question is therefore who pays? It should be the individual of course - but these are priests who have contractually (by law) given over all their material possessions to their order. Indeed the same order paid out (q
Joseph Agius
Oct 2nd 2011, 10:59
2. The next question is therefore who pays? It should be the individual of course - but these are priests who have contractually (by law) given over all their material possessions to their order. Indeed the same order paid out (quite rightly) expesnive legal fees with the best legal team in the island. Why? Because the order is materially directly responsible for the priests in its fold. Therefore it is equally responsible for the damages they would have done when part of that order
Mr john vella
Oct 2nd 2011, 10:45
What on earth is this European Court all about?
My friend president his case with a petition on continued loud noise at night to the European Court and he was told 'I repeat'. was told, this was a local matter.
Since when this blessed European Court distinguish justice to its citizens?
Why one allegation is assumed to be handled by this court and a petition present with a list of complaints, namely loud sound at night is refused?
Joseph Agius
Oct 2nd 2011, 11:01
X'ghandu x#'jaqsam???!!!
Qed thallat il-hass....
Mr Joseph Aquilina
Oct 2nd 2011, 10:16
“Our lawyer left it up to the Curia to name a figure. At that point, the Archbishop made it clear he wanted to cooperate,”
I think this Mr.Magro fails to understand the fact that what the Church is offering COSTS MONEY ALL THE SAME!! The only difference is that with the help that the Church is ready to offer these "victims" will not be able to buy cars, houses, fancy cloths, travel, etc. etc. !!! The Church did cooperate. It just did not cooperate in a way that some hungry for money would understand!!
Mr Joseph Aquilina
Oct 2nd 2011, 10:05
"Do you think it was easy for me to appear on TV and talk about my case?"
I think the thought of getting a million back can make things much easier!!
One has now to start wonder if this case was this case ever about justice? or if indeed it was always a long shot to extort money from the Church!
c p agius
Oct 2nd 2011, 10:37
A very demeaning comment indeed.....ASk yourself the question " Why is the Maltese Catholic Church acting so differently to others in Europoe and America...?"
If i were in Lawrence's shoes i would have done THE SAME....What would you have done?
Raymond Sammut
Oct 2nd 2011, 11:05
@ c p agius
There is no such thing as a "Maltese Catholic Church". There is only one Catholic church; namely, the Roman Catholic Church.
Diocese is the precise term. Given that the Maltese people do not have a Christian Church of their own, the Diocese in Malta is also not Maltese but agent to a foreign sovereign.
This is the reason why the plaintiffs' legal representative refers to the Curia (papal department in Floriana) rather than the "Church" as such.
MALCOLM SEYCHELL
Oct 2nd 2011, 09:57
Best of luck Lawrence and Co. Shame them all over the world. This institution doesn't deserve any better.
Carmel Serracino-inglott
Oct 2nd 2011, 17:50
Mr M S. Do you think that such abusers are only membersof the Catholic Church? Do you know that amongst the thousands of abusers those who members of the RCC are very few in numbers? Your point as many of the others like you, is to try to 'shame' the thousands who help abused ( in many different ways); those who run institutions; those who give millions of euro to better the lives ofthe poor. \many of these benefactors are Roman Catholic. I always say forgive and forget then happiness follows. If one does not forget and forgive then revenge follows. The state has the right and duty to see that justice is done. I was really sorry for the abused and I was ready to donate if really they ARE suffering because they did not ask for money but now to force me to donate I have second thoughts. THIS INSTITUTION DESERVES MUCH BETTERnot asyou say.
S. Camilleri
Oct 2nd 2011, 09:55
I remember one of the victims saying it was not about Money!
c p agius
Oct 2nd 2011, 10:34
why not?....these ppl suffered and deserve compensation which is normally given when what's been taken from you can be given back........
S. Camilleri
Oct 2nd 2011, 10:49
so it was always about the money.
Mr Joseph Aquilina
Oct 2nd 2011, 09:50
"Questions sent to the Curia last Thursday remained unanswered. Among others, the Curia was asked to reply to criticism that it was ignoring its moral obligation to award compensation to the victims, even if not legally bound to do so."
Then what is the sum of money the Curia is ready to spend to help these individuals with psychological therapy. I look forward to see these so called "victims" take the Church to the EU court... It will cost them millions and will get nothing since the Maltese Local Church acted very differently then let say the Church in the U.S. and other countries. It always took abuse allegations very seriously and as soon as the state took an interest in the case the local Church immediately shared all its information (unlike what happened in other countries). What is clear now is the fact that these so called “victims” where always after the money and they would have never come out unless they felt they where getting something back!! Indeed it we now (after several months stating otherwise) that it is NOT justice that they want, it is NOT help to continue their lives what they want … what they want is MONEY!!
Mr Carmelo Aquilina
Oct 2nd 2011, 12:12
no sir, the Church did everythign it could to delay the case, to stifle publicity and now it wants to assasinate the character oif its gvictims by suggesting to gullible faithful that this is about money. These people were sexually abused by two predatory paedophiles that the Church chose to put as their carers. How is that not supposed to merit monetary compensation as part of resititution ? Maybe when the Cyhruch is forced to pay legal costs and sums of moneyit may change its policy seeing thatit is not going to change it voluntarily.
Luciano Mule Stagno
Oct 2nd 2011, 09:47
Companies are liable for the actions of their employees and organizations for those of their officers - why does the Church expect to be different?
And what message are they sending by hiding behind legal advice instead of doing the right thing?
That self preservation is more important than doing the right thing?
The Church claims to be Christ's Church and to live by His teaching
Will any clergyman please reply to this and tell us that if Christ was around he would be acting according to what his lawyers said rather than what he felt was right?
Mr Joseph Aquilina
Oct 2nd 2011, 10:09
"Companies are liable for the actions of their employees"
Really? so if an employee abuses a child then the company where he works is liable for damage? The company would only be liable if it knew what the employees where doing and actually did nothing. The company we are talking about here - the Church - actually took abuse allagations seriously and coprarted fully with the state when this asked for information.
"The Church claims to be Christ's Church and to live by His teaching"
Maybe you forgot to read the fact that they Church is ready to sponsor psychological help to the "victims"... do you think that that comes for free?
Maryann Borg
Oct 2nd 2011, 10:15
What you said makes a lot of sense.
Luciano Mule Stagno
Oct 2nd 2011, 10:41
@ Joeph Aquilina
if the main business of a company was taking care of children - and the children were abused, then yes, it would be liable I believe
as regards who knew what when - thugh I have not studied all the facts I think there are plenty of indicators that action should and could have been taken earlier
D Fenech
Oct 2nd 2011, 10:48
@ Mr Joseph Aquilina. The church already knew that one of the priest had be accused of child abuse abroad and he asked to work with children in Malta after that accusation. So the church did know!!!!!!! so the church is liable for that. With regards to the other priest I think that he should personally be liable for the payment of compensation.
~One also has to keep in mind that these person might not need any further therapy now for the simple reason that they have already paid for therapy before and that is why they were strong enough now to fight such a battle.
To all those of you who have been abused, you should be proud that you were strong enough to speak up. Unfortunately there might be others who never did and will never do.
John Zammit-Spiteri
Oct 2nd 2011, 11:17
@ luciano mule stagno
the church is not a company which is there to make business and money.
The church operates with people who dedicate their lives. Unfortunately amongst the wheat grows the weeds. We do not punish the wheat crop because there is weeds. Weeds are removed. Your analogy of a christian company does not fit. Your intentions are very visible to were they lead.
stephen koludrovic
Oct 2nd 2011, 11:46
If Christ was around he would not have paid up because he would have been broke.
C Muscat
Oct 2nd 2011, 15:06
I am no cleric. The statement re liablilty is too simple to make. One has to state that it is part of a business then he has to see that the persons abusing the system are not on a frolic of their own and so on and so forth for any person liability.
In this case the matter was not civilly followed but these preferred media court and at this stage it will be mad for the church whether to offer a nominal sum of 100 euro as it will be part of the whole abuse if it happened.'
In my opinion these people know that they have a lost case since they are already mentioning europe and I condemn vehemently abuse such as alleged but still sondemn as such storm that is created for money!
Gerry Cowie
Oct 2nd 2011, 09:45
It seems like the Curia are saying "What do they want money for? If it all centres around psychological issues etc, we'll pay for treatment for them. We'll pay for anything like that, but we won't just hand out huge amounts of money for the sake of it. So we'll provide what is actually needed." In effect they are offering compensation but of a more practical nature than physical cash. Just a thought. I am not against compensation. Some maybe feel that this is not a money issue.
Mr l Azzopardi
Oct 2nd 2011, 10:23
sorry but you are totally off the mark.Read what happened internationally and you'll know compensation is the way forward. I fully agree with these guys being compensated for the sexual abuse the accused priests inflicted upon them when they were children.
S. Camilleri
Oct 2nd 2011, 10:48
@Mr Azzopardi.
What happened Internationally is of no specific merit. As if such judgments are anything to go by! Have you heard the case of robbery victims suing and winning compensation for injury sustained during theft?
Many compensation awards are mere legitimized extortion schemes riding on a wave of sympathy. Only in cases where sexual predators where transferred or covered up do I find the church as morally and legally obliged to provide such compensation.
Mr Joseph Brincat
Oct 2nd 2011, 09:36
GOOD LUCK
Joe Camilleri
Oct 2nd 2011, 08:42
Child abuse is a moral issue and its very bad. Financial compensation is simply a business issue and I think its very bad.
Mr l Azzopardi
Oct 2nd 2011, 10:28
very bad for who? so what is very good ... letting abuse happen under ones nose and then send the victims to a shrink??!
Irrid nara lilek titkellem hekk kieku kont int il-vittma.
the logic (sic) you present Mr Camilleri makes no sense at all.
C Muscat
Oct 2nd 2011, 07:52
Mr Grech and Joe Magro, another of the victims, said the group intended suing the Church for moral damages and – should they lose – would turn to the Strasbourg court.
This means they already know it is a lost case.
I take every opportunity to condemn any abuse whether from clerics or any other dear person to the victim but this case stinks from the very beginning. Any such case had to be dealt within the courts not by the media. There are so many grey issues about this case (still sub judice) that in Malta and in Europe they should be grateful for the support the authorities are offering.
David Caruana
Oct 2nd 2011, 12:22
"This means they already know it is a lost case"
Maybe Mr.Grech and Mr.Magro, like many of us, don't have faith in the local courts.
It useless for either you or me to assume. Let's wait until this case goes to the international courts and then we'll see who laughs last.
Joseph W. Galea
Oct 2nd 2011, 07:49
Which of course proves more and more that the real end result was, how much MONEY can we get out of this episode.
Dennis Zammit
Oct 2nd 2011, 07:26
Once again, it is clear that the alleged victims (still pending appeal) where solely after money even when they made a public statement that they just wanted justice and no money at all.
SO first they gained public appeal and then they turned their guns to the public's donations to the Church. They should sue the alleged abusers as they acted on their own behalf and not instructed by any Church institution to do so.
Go find a job as it is clear that they are now the abusers . . . abusing the system.
David Caruana
Oct 2nd 2011, 11:33
They can't find a decent job because when you, Dennis, had every opportunity to study without any problems, these victims were distraught and confused because A PRIEST UNDER THE CHURCH'S WATCH WAS RAPING THEM.
Don't you feel any shame in writing those words?! You call them abusers? Your hate has no limits.
Your comment is disgusting as much as the paedophile priests' actions.
Dennis Zammit
Oct 2nd 2011, 13:15
@ David Caruana
Shame? Why?
Why doesn't anyone look into the subject why these kids where left at St. Joseph's Home in the first place?
Apart from that, from the court hearings, it is clear that the alleged victims remained best friends with their alleged abusers. Can you explain that to us?
FRANS H SAID
Oct 2nd 2011, 07:17
Money is the root of all evil.
Set up a "charity" so that all those who support you could make a contribution. They you shall have the greatest surprise of your lives - the charity box will be empty except for a few "buttons" and odd coins.
Mr l Azzopardi
Oct 2nd 2011, 10:32
Charity ... contribution? no way Sur Said the one to pay these raped children will be the Church and keep your sarcasm to yourself ... you are referring to raped children by priests here...
David Caruana
Oct 2nd 2011, 11:30
It seems Frans is forgetting this basic but real fact, that here we're talking about children that got raped by priests.
It even seems that it's OK for Frans Said that a priest does so and that its church covers it up.
Mr JOSEPH ZAMMIT
Oct 2nd 2011, 11:36
In lieu of good reasoning and goodwill, your sarcasm betrays your lack compassion. On the other hand, yes, money is the root of all evil----then why does the church asks for--or collects--money from her fidili?
Joseph J Camilleri
Oct 2nd 2011, 12:39
Mr Zammit 'fidili' means 'faithful' first and foremost to God and then Church and not fidili like we mean in Maltese jargon . The Church, which is us, would be fidili to accept this. Firstly they claimed that this was not a matter of money but of justice being done, justice which was meted to the offending priests by the courts. All they are after now is the pound of flesh.