Jeffrey Pullicino Orlando MP (Nationalist), Żebbuġ
Hackneyed abortion and divorce link
I refer to two letters which appeared on March 25.
Paul Vincenti, whom I collaborated with three years ago when I was militating against an abortion resolution in the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, tried to denigrate my pro-marriage stand in a recent article by using the hackneyed divorce-abortion pseudo-connection.
I would like to refer him to the following quote from Lifesitenews (April 16, 2008 “Assembly member Jeffrey Pullicino Orlando, representing Malta, a country which upholds the right to life of all children, born and unborn, opposed the resolution, warning that ‘a society which destroys its young condemns itself to oblivion’.”
Not that I had to because he knows exactly how hard the delegation I headed worked against the resolution in question.
It is shameful that he and others who are attacking those of us who are in favour of the introduction of responsible divorce try to imply, regularly, that we are in any way in favour of the introduction of abortion.
In a separate letter Pierre and Mireille Cordina seem to imply that I tried to mislead the House when I quoted what Mr Cordina said in a recent The Times interview (March 3 “If the state had a divorce law it would be very easy for me to start getting nagging thoughts like: ‘Am I really going to spend all my life with Mireille?’ Every day I will start considering the option of divorce.”
I stand by what I said in the House during the recent divorce debate. If this is the way he and the anti-divorce movement really see things they have a manifestly skewed perception about the institution of marriage.
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Joe Xuereb
Mar 29th 2011, 12:49
It's said that in marriage, problems start in the bedroom.
People experience the natural phenomenon we call 'falling in love'. They experience 'love' as an effortless feeling and an incredible sexual yearning for the person. So sex and love get to be seen as 'horse-and-carriage'. Of course the 'easy' falling in love feeling eventually changes to FALLING out of love, when REAL love should begin (needs working at). Because love/sex get entangles in our minds - aided and abetted by capitalist consumerism, urban myths - we equate sex with love with sex. Make-love-to-me-prove-that-you-love-me, sort of thinking. Thence, troubles start in the bedroom. Unfortunately here in Malta celibate priests claim to be experts on matters sexual.
As Tina Turner famously sang, What's love got to do with it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smGG7L_JjSM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYSwQFybFnQ&feature=fvsr
I mustn't be misunderstood. There's nothing more destructive than sex as extreme sport, often used as an only means of communication. It is hazardous and comes at a very high price. So, promiscuity for its own sake is a big No-No.
For marriage to survive, one needs to want to be married, take responsibility (children are optional). And being mindful that true love starts, maturely, after love stops being so 'easy'.
Joe Xuereb
Mar 29th 2011, 05:01
@ Jonathan Cassar Torreggiani(18hrs.13mins.ago): Quote: 'Many claim they're in favour of divorce but against abortion'. And 'we are talking about a change in mentality and once that changes, it will be almost impossible to reverse'.
You're so wrong Jonathan. You are mixing mentality, which is a set of ideas, thinking under one umbrella formed by a philosophy or idea. Approval of, for instance, divorce is a one off thinking over a specific matter. It can be reversed as can one's mentality. The point is 'mentality/mindset is one thing and having an opinion on a specific matter are one and the same thing, and irreversible. No. The trick in life is for one to be open to different ideas that can bring about a change of mindset OR a change of opinion on a specific matter. It can feel frightening and painful but how else is one to grow? That which doesn't work, not really, needs changing. Because life's too short for us to put up with matters that damage us.
Your claim is so bizarre I'm not sure I've rebuffed it successfully. You'll have to try harder to change my mindset(mentality) and/or my opinion on divorce.
Marika Doublet
Mar 28th 2011, 23:30
I've known people who were single, never married and had a long-standing relationship over many years. Some couples love each other to bits and stay together even though they could leave each other as easily as walking away. No divorce procedure, no interfering priests..I've known couples who never married but loved each other much more than many married couples that I see. There are couples who never married, did decide to part ways but with a healthy respect for each other and the love they shared. Why does annullment, separation and divorce have to make two people attack each other and try to maximize every little fault. This only opens sore wounds and cultivates hate between the couple. Some people actually think that the very act of marriage is too much pressure on a relationship and creates a status of high expectation and demand on each other. Marriage is a beautiful thing, if cultivated on love not on pressure, expectation and forced submission. There's a deeper type of love, that of letting someone go. The only similarity between abortion and divorce or any parting between couples is a deep sense of loss. But that is all!!
peter galea
Mar 28th 2011, 21:55
Dawk ta kontra id-divorzju nisthajjilhom qed jgherqu u lesti li jiggranfaw ma lanqas zokk. U x'ma qalux; lid-divorzju jkun pijs finanzjarju ghal gvern, jipparagunaw ma pajjizi barranin, dejjem kif jaqbel lilhom, divorzju ala las vegas, li ukoll mhux il kas,attakki personali fuq JPO, issa l-abortion, iqabzu u jhawdu ma ligi civili ma dik tal knisja, xi j.zammit kontinwament jrid igelled ix-xitan ma alla, siltiet mil bibja nofs verita, bhal meta Gesu semma li z-zwieg qaddis had ma jista jhol (Hlief f'kas ta infedelta - din ma isemmux). u ipposar ta kollhom qdusija
Mil banda l-ohra dawk favur id-divorzju dejjem kienu konsistenti fl-argumenti raguneori li jipperswadu lin-nies. Ghaldaqstant jien nivvota favur id-divorzju.
Jonathan Cassar
Mar 28th 2011, 20:20
RVassallo is a psychiatrist it seems. An amazing one at that, he managed to diagnose a man who died almost 50 years ago despite not ever having met him. Remarkable indeed Raphael, Bravo!
You really impress us with you consummate medical skills but I am afraid that you fail miserably when it comes to offering an opinion changing debate.
Nathalie Zammit
Mar 28th 2011, 21:53
Jonathan Cassar, it seems to me that you have it in for Mr Vassallo. Why all these attacks aimed solely at him???
Jonathan Cassar
Mar 28th 2011, 19:30
When we talk of divorce leading to abortion, we are comparing like for like. Western countries to western ones. The only exception and even they are under siege, is Ireland. The reason they have not legalized abortion yet;, because they have a constitutional amend? Wonder of wonders! On another note Raphael, I am impressed you seem to know so much about the saints BTW. No enough it seems to see the plank in your own eye.
Jonathan Cassar
Mar 28th 2011, 19:24
Raphael Vassallo omitted to mention that all those countries he mentioned are Muslim. They remain the exception as they do not have the so called freedom thinkers like him, who call themselves liberal and are hell bent on destroying anything remotely connected to religion, even if this means agreeing to legalise abortion something they even admit is regrettable.
Raphael Vassallo
Mar 28th 2011, 23:40
It is like with like. If you're going to base your country's legislation on religious rules, you invite comparison with Muslim countries, not 'Western ones'. (Incidentally there are quite a few South and Central American countries in there, too. Have they become Muslim while I wasn't looking?)
Raphael Vassallo
Mar 28th 2011, 23:50
"All those countries are Muslim", my foot. Read the list again: Andorra. Antigua. Brunei. Central African Republic. Chile. Democratic Republic of Congo. Dominica. Gabon. Guatemala. Honduras. Ireland. Ivory Coast. Kiribati. Laos. Marshal Islands. Monaco. Myanmar. Nicaragua. Paraguay. San Marino. Sao Tome and Principe. Solomon Islands. Sri Lanka. Suriname. Tonga. Tuvalu. Not one of them Muslim, most of them predominantly Christian.
maria muscat
Mar 29th 2011, 07:38
Ok correction: Andorra, Antigua, CAR (50% catholic), Chile, Congo, Dominca, Gabon, Guetamala, Honduras, Ireland, Ivory coast (split between islam and christian), Kiribati, Laos, Madagascar, marshall islands ........ these are just a few of the total where you are wrong in stating that they are ALL MUSLIM (as these countries are primarily christian/ buddhist ) and i love the fact that you feel that none of the mentioned countries are 'freedom thinkers' (in spite of the fact that countries (e.g.) Ireland is an EU member state!!!) please Mr.Cassar educate yourself before you talk because you are making us Maltese look like fools!!!!
Joe Zammit
Mar 28th 2011, 16:36
In which country there is divorce with no abortion? The answer proves if divorce leads to abortion or not. Join in the battle between God and the devil! Fight the good fight! The victory is ours, it's already guaranteed!
Raphael Vassallo
Mar 28th 2011, 17:21
OK, here you goL Countries with divorce but no abortion, in alphabetical order: Afghanistan. Andorra. Antigua. Brunei. Central African Republic. Chile. Congo. Dominica. Gabon. Guatemala. Honduras. Ireland. Iran. Ivory Coast. Kiribati. Laos. Madagascar. Marshal Islands. Mauritania. Mauritius. Micronesia, Monaco. Myanmar. Nicaragua. Oman. Palestinian Terrirory. Paraguay. San Marino. Sao Tome and Principe. Senegal. Solomon Islands. Somalia. Sri Lanka. Suriname. Syria. Tonga. Tuvalu. UAE. Yemen.
M Vella***
Mar 28th 2011, 17:30
@Joe Zammit,Dan jaqaw ma ghandhux x'jaghmel?Viva l-Liberta...Iva ghad Divorzju.
Gerard Cassar
Mar 28th 2011, 17:52
Don't judge in order not to be judged is not your motto. You are all the time judging people. Is your scope to be seen as a champion of religion. You have already committed religious errors condemned by Jesus Christ.
MBorg
Mar 28th 2011, 15:49
These things start slowly. Who ever thaught that JPO would ever propose this divorce bill ?Yet propose it he did, with many claiming that it is their civil right to get a second chance at marriage. Very soon we will have others claiming that abortion is a woman's right.
When we reach a stage were any thing goes abortion willl follow, it happened in other countries it will happen here.
victor pulis
Mar 28th 2011, 16:49
These things start slowly. There are some who are condemning all those in favour of divorce to eternal hell fire. Who knows? perhaps in the future they will start militating for the return of the inquisiition and the auto de fe. The torture chambers and the rack. The bublic burnings and beheadings. I have a right to imagine too haven't I?
Gerard Cassar
Mar 28th 2011, 13:49
Referring to the power Christ gave to the Church in the name of Peter (Mathew XXVI 19) free translation: ”All that you tie on earth will be tied in Heaven; all that you untie on earth will be untied in Heaven.
A theology question
This power the Church uses it in all sphere even in the case of priesthood
Why is the Church not using this power with regards to marriage and divorce? Christ did not exclude anything He said the world “all”
And what happens to the person that votes yes to the question of the referendum?
Simon Oosterman
Mar 28th 2011, 13:33
Did JPO really say, when talking about abortion, 'a society which destroys its young condemns itself to oblivion'? Come on, JPO. If that were true all of North America and most of Europe as well as China will shortly be no more. But of course it is not true. For society as a whole the impact of early term abortions is no different from anti conception and late term abortions reduce the number of disabled people. It should be possible for the opponents to make their case without incorrect hyperbole.
Wenzu Vella
Mar 28th 2011, 14:36
In the case of China the one child policy that most of the western world and especially the Catholic Church were very much against has saved China and the world some 400 million more mouths to feed.
Wilfred L. Camilleri
Mar 28th 2011, 17:10
All I have to say to Julian Borg is: "What a crock!". How can he compare a religious symbol, be it Christina or otherwise, to a McDonald hamburger or Coca Cola? Get over it Mr. Borg and leave your nonsense
Wilfred L. Camilleri
Mar 28th 2011, 17:17
The impact of early term, late-term and early-term abortions is that a living being is murdered! Abortion is murder regardless of the reason! @Wenzu Vella In the case of China, the one child policy is that in China, were males are preferred to females, the policy has resulted in a severe imbalance of the male to female population as parents chose to abort female babies in an attempt to have male babies. If you really feel that the the world has too many mouths to feed, perhaps you should go on a protracted hunger strike and save the food for other people!
Raymond Bezzina
Mar 28th 2011, 13:10
I strongly believe that :
Those who are in favour of the evil of divorce would have already weakened their
ability to overcome other evils, thereby rendering themselves lame and therefore,
sooner or later they would find it difficult to uphold the principles of righteousness.
wally vella-zarb
Mar 28th 2011, 16:06
There are countless others who believe - just as strongly - that the people who are against the introduction of divorce have chosen their stand for the simple reason that their own marriage is so fragile that they fear their spouse will pack up and leave them while the ink on the divorce law is still drying...
Joe Zammit
Mar 28th 2011, 12:45
Padre Pio, who had regular contacts with God, the devil, saints and angels, said more that once that "divorce is a passport to hell". He knew what he was saying and no one could belie him.
There are many people who can give witness to what he said. He could narrate even details of dead persons to their relatives, without even knowing those persons. Before he went to sleep, Padre Pio used to greet Buona Notte to his confratelli (other friars). These answered to him: Buon viaggio, because every night he used to go to different persons all over the world to convert them, and sometimes also to heal them physically.
M Vella**
Mar 28th 2011, 13:17
"divorce is a passport to hell". my left foot,so you are saying that divorced have got the same faith as murderers,rapist,paedophiles,bad priests ecc,ecc.If priests are teaching this type of intolerance to educators what hope is there for our children?
ARROGANCE!!!!
Raphael Vassallo
Mar 28th 2011, 14:04
'''Padre Pio, who had regular contacts with God, the devil, saints and angels..."
... but unfortunately, not with psychiatrists...
MBorg
Mar 28th 2011, 15:31
@ Raphael Vassallo
Please try again. I did not get your joke , was there meant to be one ?
victor pulis
Mar 28th 2011, 16:58
And what the hell (pun intended) did padre Pio discuss with the devil?! He wasn't trying to convert him was he?!! And can you tell us how did the discourse with angels go? Did they discuss the length of their wings like the theologians of old did? Or how many angels could stand on the point of a needle? Joe, How many people have come forward to swear that they were woken in the middle of the night by Padre Pio standing at the foot of their bed? @ Raphael Vassallo I get your point and it was not meant as a joke.
Raphael Vassallo
Mar 28th 2011, 17:02
There wasn't one. Mental hospitals the world over are full of people who claim to be in direct contact with God, the devil, angels, saints, the dead, the undead and so on. Most cases are diagnosed as suffering from psychotic delusion. The rest are known as 'saints'.
Jonathan Cassar
Mar 28th 2011, 17:15
@Carmelo Aquilina You assume that those in favour of abortion use logical arguments to convince people that human life does not start at conception. There is nothing logical at all in the whole abortion affair. It is rife with illogical rationale that stems from highly emotive substance. Divorce and abortion are sisters
Lina Caruana
Mar 28th 2011, 12:37
It seems that the pro divorce lobby has a blinkered view of the way the ensuing consequences of divorce legislation has proceeded. Starting with civil rights once these are established around divorce legislation they are stretched into as many members' bill as needed by diverse individuals and these need not be against abortion, euthanasia etc. for civil rights like divorce may constitute every whim of all individuals whoever they may be if they lobby. My point is to be wary of what constitutes a civil right.
jane camilleri haber
Mar 28th 2011, 10:54
2.@Dr.P Orlando when people fail their promises and their obligations there are no solutions apart of them realising their wrongdoing and convert to what is right. the solution should not be sought from governemnt or church but from the persons making the promises themselves. to dismantle the indissolubility of marriage to faciclitate a second marriage ( now of a dissoluble nature and therefore different in nature from the present one) is like making a dare to someone that he jumps a 6foot high wall. when the person fails, you remove the wall except for one layer and rediculing him you say to him;'there now you can surely jump it' this kind of marriage after divorce is a ridiculous union which does not even compare with the real indissoluble marriage for which man has a natural inclination which legitimises it into a civil right. now when two people are in love and they seek an institution which deserves their decision to give themselves wholly to each other and the quality of lifelong love they hope to share. they will seek a lifelong indissoluble institution and they will find none. so divorce takes away a natural right enshrined at law at present.
jane camilleri haber
Mar 28th 2011, 10:34
1.@Dr.P Orlando. if the country has up to now considered the institution of marriage as conrtributing greatly to the stability of the country and our people, then how come now that that institution is already being targeted by a non-commitment mentality , instead of strengthening it even more at law, we find you voting for its dismantling? divorce denudes marriage from its legal status which up to now has fostered national strength. how can we expect the country to become stronger and more stable if this pillar is denuded of power and dismalntled?the pro-divorce lobby says it is for marriage. this is not true. being for marriage means sacrficing oneself if one has failed its high aspirations and not ask for its obliteration in order to contract it again and possibly fail it over and over again. many people fail thier marriages because they do not have within themselves the factors needed both to make a good choice of partners as well as to live marriage out in a wholesome joint journey. the solution for the nation in the face of so many marriage breakdowns is not to dismantle the anchor of society but to strengthen the pre-marriage preparation
Joe Zammit
Mar 28th 2011, 10:20
There can never be a responsible divorce. Divorce of any kind is evil, condemned by God for our own good.
We do not want divorce, any divorce. The great majority of Maltese and Gozitans want no form of divorce; so the vast majority will say NO to divorce.
It is a devilish deceit to try to qualify divorce. Divorce is the dissolution of a validly contracted marriage by a human person. No human person has the power, let alone the right, to dissolve a valid marriage.
A big NO to divorce; YES to the indissolubility of marriage.
Join in the battle between God and the devil! Fight the good fight! The victory is ours, it's already guaranteed!
Gerard Cassar
Mar 28th 2011, 12:17
Regarding St Padre Pio. According to Joe Zammit Padre Pio had the faculty of ubiquity. It is the first time that this has been read. Films have been made and there are no references to the power of ubiquity. This J.Zammit is saying that instead of sleeping or while asleep Padre Pio travelled miraculously away from his convent to go and convert people at night, since this was happening during night time. It cannot be denied that miracles as such are possible but reflect on what this J Zammit is saying: such ubiquitous movements happened at night when it is dark and probably people are sleeping. Of course it could be that Padre Pio visited persons in regions such as Australia where it is daylight or the American Continent.
So please Mr J.Zammit beware that you are writing truths not imagination. Explain what you write and be sure that it is plausible.
Remember that you wrote that a divorcee can go to confession and receive Holy Communion, without pointing out the circumstances. Here you erred
Gerard Cassar
Mar 28th 2011, 13:24
Regarding St Padre Pio. According to Joe Zammit Padre Pio had the faculty of ubiquity. It is the first time that this has been read. Films have been made and there are no references to the power of ubiquity. This J.Zammit is saying that instead of sleeping or while asleep Padre Pio travelled miraculously away from his convent to go and convert people at night, since this was happening during night time. It cannot be denied that miracles as such are possible but reflect on what this J Zammit is saying: such ubiquitous movements happened at night when it is dark and probably people are sleeping. Of course it could be that Padre Pio visited persons in regions such as Australia where it is daylight or the American Continent.
So please Mr J.Zammit beware that you are writing truths not imagination. Explain what you write and be sure that it is plausible.
Remember that you wrote that a divorcee can go to confession and receive Holy Communion, without pointing out the circumstances. Here you erred
Jonathan Cassar Torreggiani
Mar 28th 2011, 09:57
There are many who claim to be in favour of divorce but against abortion.
However what one needs to realise is that we are talking about a change in mentality and once that changes, it will be almost impossible to reverse.
If the permanence of marriage, that is something culturally ingrained in us, is removed, then bit by bit all the the other things that we hold dear to us will be eroded too.
The next generation will use the same arguments for abortion that are being used today for divorce. And the generation after that will again use the same arguments to favour euthanasia.
It has been done in every other country, and we will be no different.
Divorce was always introduced first, then "legal" abortion....
The introduction of divorce is the first foot in the door to dismantle our social fabric.
So yes, there is an intrinsic link between divorce and abortion.
Only a fool wont recognise it.
carmelo aquilina
Mar 28th 2011, 10:05
Jonathan...there is no link whatsoever. Show us the evdience.... until you do so I will state that this is desperate scaremongering by those people who have no argument left to offer.
Ramon Casha
Mar 28th 2011, 11:05
"However what one needs to realise is that we are talking about a change in mentality..."
Speaking for myself, I have been in favour of divorce since I was a child.
"f the permanence of marriage, that is something culturally ingrained in us..."
It is not. For as long as I can remember I've always known that marriages sometimes end. I've never thought of marriage as something intrinsically permanent, but rather as something that we should strive to keep alive.
"Divorce was always introduced first, then "legal" abortion...."
The horseless carriage was introduced first, then the windsurfer. In short, although the two often take place in a particular order, they are unrelated.
So the only link that exists between divorce and abortion is an imaginary one.
Jonathan Cassar Torreggiani
Mar 28th 2011, 11:24
Carmelo,
Can you provide evidence of which countries first introduced abortion and then divorce?
I'll help you: none
Also, which countries first introduced divorce and then abortion.
I'll help you again: The rest of them!
As I said, its all down to a change in mentality...
No scaremongering here, but facts.
Only those who do not wish to see it can't see it!
Carmelo Aquilina
Mar 28th 2011, 13:46
Jonathan, that is an illogical argument.... so radio transmissions were introduced in countries before abortion was legalized so therefore radio transmissions are responsible for abortions.... LOL .... come on show me the facts as you put it !
victor pulis
Mar 28th 2011, 17:25
I see you are catching up to the idea that mentality is changing irrespective of divorce. This is a natural thing in the evolution of the human race. Look around you and you'll see many things which were considered 'evil' starting from kissing in public to swim wear. This is something that cannot be stopped as you say it will be impossible to reverse. Regarding abortion, As in every argument there is white, black and many shades of grey in between. Case scenario. A pregnant wife, mother to three little children is told that if she continues with her pregnancy she will die leaving behind three orphans and a widow. Very easy to pass judgement sitting on a sofa sipping a drink. But I hate to find myself in this poor woman's husband's shoes. I'm certain that the saints among us who don't think twice to condemn people to hell will say, "She should go on with the pregnancy and die a martyr." Easy isn't it?