Experts query Malta and Gozo underwater tunnel feasibility
Cars could be driving under this ferry if geological studies show a subsea tunnel between the islands is feasible.
The proposal for an underwater tunnel linking Malta and Gozo has received a lukewarm response from experts, who point out the option floated could prove unfeasible.
“Malta’s experience with tunnelling has not been very successful,” Peter Gatt, geologist and researcher at Durham University, said.
The project could end in “catastrophe” unless the geology of the seabed and underlying rock is known well, he warned, adding he knew of a tunnel job in which the costs doubled because no geological studies were carried out and problems cropped up mid-way.
His caution about the complexity and cost of the proposal was echoed by others, who doubted the tentative price tag of €150 million put on the project.
The idea, which resurfaced last week when Gozitan businessman Joseph Borg asked the Prime Minister to look into the possibility of a “permanent road” between the two islands, was followed by news that Parliamentary Secretary Chris Said would be formally presenting the proposal with preliminary studies to Lawrence Gonzi.
Dr Said called for an in-depth technical and financial assessment of the proposal and estimated that, based on similar tunnels built over the past 30 years, the project should cost in the range of €150 million.
It all depended on the geological problems faced, Mr Gatt said about the cost. In fact, the seabed that would need to be tunnelled is not that straightforward. Malta, Comino and Gozo are separated by large faults, while Gozo’s eastern flank is also densely faulted. Moreover, there are areas near Comino where the seabed is clay.
These issues could push the costs up, Mr Gatt argued, even though he conceded that “practically anything can be built anywhere, as long as there is enough money...”
The president of the contractors’ federation, Anġlu Xuereb was more categorical, insisting the idea was neither technically nor financially feasible.
“To descend to that level, you would need a really long ramp. On the Malta side, it may not be such a problem but in Gozo, you would have to start it from Għajnsielem,” he said.
“Any structural engineer would say it is impossible,” he insisted, stressing the cost would soar well above the quoted €150 million.
Retired road engineer André Zammit also doubts the economic feasibility of a tunnel 50 metres below the seabed.
He suggested that building a tube above it could work, an idea that had already been proposed about 40 years ago by the Malta Joint Group of UK Engineers, which he chaired.
Although the suggestion had not been studied in depth at the time, it looked viable prima facie and, with the technological progress made since, the feasibility could only have increased.
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R. Gauci
Feb 7th 2011, 01:06
Farsa ohra biex naljenaw lil poplu din, anqas ghandna hila nirrangaw l-erbgha toroq li ghandna ahseb w'ara kemm se nibni triq taht l-art. Mbaghad bhalissa, bil-krizi li hawn, nahseb jistghu jintefqu ahjar il-flus u ma naghmlux l-izball li ghamilna b'Bieb il-Belt..
Pule' Carmel
Feb 5th 2011, 22:03
People who can solve such logic can build the logic of, cablecars, tunnels and bridges.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVLQ61uSE48
Pule' Carmel
Feb 5th 2011, 21:36
I would go for a wider span at the centre of the two channels, between Cirkewwa/ Kemmuna and Kemmuna/Mgarr
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D3nX42cmg4
Pule' Carmel
Feb 5th 2011, 21:29
Bridge or Tunnel take your choice.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdsHPjmUC14
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9Fg0yUk3-Y
Dorian Xuereb
Feb 5th 2011, 20:02
For all the maltese against the idea of connecting our little Gozo to Malta or even dare to say that we (gozitans) should be kept this way: leave off, you aint got the slightest idea how much we need it... For Chris Said i only got one thing to say: Go on my son... For the Gozitans whom are also against it: When we actually get connected, we save up a little village on the edge of the island, demolish the road that connects you to the rest of the island and leave you to live your life peacefully and isolated as you want it to be... Just do not speak to the rest of us while you re being a gozitan...
c. bartolo
Feb 5th 2011, 17:15
lilliputian politics with brobdignagian aspirations.....
E.Cini
Feb 5th 2011, 16:26
Nispera li ma naslux sal- punt li tkun xi weghda elettorali!
Schembri Ray
Feb 5th 2011, 16:05
It's better to consider a tunnel to bypass Xemxija & Mellieha first. The traffic flow will improve over the weekend.
Alex Buds
Feb 5th 2011, 15:44
The obvious solution is a large catapult at either end - one in Mgarr, and one in Gozo. Trajectory could be adjusted to compensate for wind direction, so this is an all-weather solution as desired. (Maybe a trampoline for a soft landing on the other side too, if passengers pay extra)
L.Buhagiar
Feb 5th 2011, 12:52
L ghawdxin li jiktbu hawn.I ddahlux lil kulhadd fl istess keffa. Jiena awdxina, nahdem Malta, inbati bhal kull ghawdxi u ghawdxiha u miniex favur la Bridge u lanqas Tunnel. Grazzi!!!
Dorian Xuereb
Feb 5th 2011, 20:03
Hmmm... If i may ask, where are you from?
Ray G. Abela
Feb 5th 2011, 20:31
Tinkwetax, mhux se jsir ghada l-bridge jew it-tunnel. Jigifieri tista tibqa tbati u tterraq int u kull min jigi minnek fil kumdita, u ara ma thallix lil xi hadd jehodlok dak id dritt :))
Dorian Xuereb
Feb 7th 2011, 00:41
Ghidilhom Ray.... tajba sieheb..
P.Cutajar
Feb 5th 2011, 12:47
Naraw x nirvintaw ha nidru. Sur Chris tinsiex tamel munument tieghek fil bidu tat-Tunnel halli kulhadd ikun jaf li ghamiltu inti!!!! Ghadna ma xbajniex inhamgu !!
Simon Mizzi
Feb 5th 2011, 11:25
Again cynical comments by so called experts weighing in before a study has been carried out. Scientists should have the prerogative to comment on evidence not aspire for their 'Xarabank' moment. So please let's stick to that prerogative. I like the comment by Peter Gatt that bad experience with tunnel building (I don't know what is he alluding to) is a good precursor for not going through with this project. Pessimism at its best. All scientists/engineers test their innovations over and over again however they do not relent at the first failure attempt and they do fail. Also it is interesting that Anglu Xuereb some 15 years ago proposed an underwater link between Sliema and Valletta but is finding this proposal utterly impossible. Any simple search would show that such tunnels are very feasible. Take a look at this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seikan_Tunnel
Tunnel in Japan is ten times longer, three times deeper of what is being proposed here. Price tag: 3.7 billion dollars (2.7 billion euros) 23 years ago when technology costings would have been higher.
Let's wait for the feasibility study and discuss its findings.
Alex Buds
Feb 5th 2011, 15:38
Some things are obvious without wasting millions of euros on a feasibility study, which will only benefit another bunch of experts...
ps. Malta is not Japan. Last time I checked, Japan's GDP was a bit bigger.
pps. Like most things, normally prices of infrastructure go up with time, not down. It's called "inflation". That tunnel you mention would probably cost 3 or 4 times as much today.
K Grech
Feb 5th 2011, 09:01
I totally agree with W. Cauchi.
This is the usual trick to take us to fantasy land and for us to forget the problems we are facing in the real world.
The only way to get our country out of all the debt we have is if we strike oil. Good idea or not is not the question. This is a non starter from the very beging as we dont have the money.
Our country has to act responsable and not continue to spend public funds on useless things such as the new parlament .
Instead we should start by a basic thing and fix our roads so at least tourist dont think they have landed on the moon.
Pajjiz tal Micky Mouse
Ludwig Flask
Feb 5th 2011, 07:29
Part 2/2
My suggestion is that the Gozo Channel begins to offer more added value to their service, maybe upgrade the ferries and terminals. Why the door leading to the gents room on the ferry is kept open (I cannot pee in peace)? Why are the ferries dirty? Why is the terminal at Cirkewwa still in miserable state, years have passed and it is still in a mess (but it was inaugurated by a MP, yes)?
Change in attitude is what is needed!
Ludwig Flask
Feb 5th 2011, 07:28
Part 1/2
I fully agree with Dr Peter Gatt!
But I would like to add:
An underwater tunnel is a 'fantastic' idea, maybe even a bridge, but abroad similar projects costs billions, and though not being an expert I would put a price tag near €3 billions, not calculating the costs covering ongoing safety checks and maintenance. It will take decades to build as well. We can do whatever studies necessary if paid from EU, but not from the pockets of us tax payers. It isn't feasible!
Are we satisfied with the work done on our roads? Do the tunnels in Malta leak? Why hasn't the contractor whom worked in Attard about two weeks ago hasn't covered the 2 metre square hole in the middle of the road with tarmac, has it rained recently?
James Bugeja
Feb 5th 2011, 07:16
$150 M --- You need this sum for studies and bribes.
lewis portelli
Feb 5th 2011, 02:28
There is a song called To dream the impossible dream.
p.grima
Feb 5th 2011, 00:04
As I said earlier in the other article, a cable car, or arial tramway, is so much more practical and economical to build and maintain. A cable car can do the crossing no matter how rough the sea is below it, and might be economically feasible.
See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable_car
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_tramway
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wings_of_Tatev
Joe Xuereb
Feb 4th 2011, 22:41
Relatively speaking, Cirkewwa, the link to Gozo, is at the back of beyond for anyone travelling from 'downtown' Malta to the peace of Gozo. And underground train from Valletta to Cirkewwa would cut travelling time by half at least. nbul.
Greek islanders take ferrying between one island and another in their stride. The same can be said for travel between Europe and Asia in Istanbul*.
I've a feeling that people on the Maltese islands suffer from 'trapped-in-a-small-island' syndrome and fantasise about expanding by whatever means - reclaiming land, building huge and expensive bridges to link two pieces of fascinating rocks, digging a tunnel, at astronomical cost plus maintenance, to link two pieces of beautiful islands.
Istanbul has a few bridges spanning the Golden Horn but still on the European side. The suspension bridge - nowhere as long as the Malta to Gozo one would be - connects the huge European landmass to the ginormous Asian one, so its contruction is more than justified.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/che-burashka/191968501/
http://www.middleeastarchitecture.com/Building/3177/Atatrk-Bridge.php
Improve the system that is already in place. Alternatively, an underground train (like the new one in Istanbul)., Valletta to Cirkewwa. Or, if needs must, a suspension bridge. Anything else is folly - delusional grandeur.
albert zammit
Feb 4th 2011, 21:22
Good idea...in theory.
To cut a long mathematical sum short I envisage that 100,000 vehicles a week at 60 euros each, would be needed to make the proposal viable.
Other than this it should balance the psychological gap that exists between the two islands which in effect should be one.
mario Cassar
Feb 4th 2011, 21:29
@Albert Zammit.....details please!. To me this is a shot in the dark.
mario cassar
Feb 4th 2011, 21:18
Jien niskanta kemm hawn esperti fuq kollox hawn Malta. Hallu isir studju imbaghad nitkellmu wara. Dak il-Malti li jitla Ghawdex darba ghal Karnival jew ghal Santa Marija x'jimpurtah mit-tunnel, dak il-Malti li hu 'made of money' u jitla fil-farmhouse kull weekend tunnel u mux tunnel xorta jaqsam biex igawdi l-genna f'Ghawdex, dak l-ghawdxi li ghandu negozju ghawdex jew jahdem mal-gvern jew il-ministeru tghid mux ha joghod jinkwieta u ihabbel rasu mi tunnel..... 'ma naghmluhx ax jivaduna l-Maltin', Ma nixtiqx nitfa lil kulhadd fl-istess keffa imma verita hi li hawn min irid jaqsam kuljum biex jghix u hawn min kellu jitlaq l-gheruq tieghu ghawdex u jinzel jghix Malta biex jiprova jghix u mux jezisti. Jidispjacini ghax nahseb l-ghawdxin jaqdfu ghar-rashom ghax bezlin u ma jinghaqdux f'forza kontra min jipprova jinjora li din hi problema ....
J Aquilina
Feb 4th 2011, 17:50
First we hear so much about EcoGozo and then we hear such a proposal that surely will not help the ecology at all - please scrap the idea and spare the money that will be wasted on the preliminary studies.
Paul A Vella
Feb 4th 2011, 17:47
One of the longest tunnels bored here in Malta onland, (I am here referring to the one on the Sta Venera by-pass) is slowly turning into a carwash...notwithstanding the ingenious attempt to divert the water flowing (whether it rains or not) down what looks like a reinforced plastic sheeting. I hate to imagine what this new attempt could result in...more rusting cars is the least of the problems!!!
malcolm seychell
Feb 4th 2011, 14:59
150 million is a joke. this will cost over half a billion
Adrian Wirth
Feb 4th 2011, 10:43
Given a blank cheque virtually any engineering challenge is feasible. A tunnel to Gozo is feasible but at what cost? Cost isn't simply the construction cost including infrastructure leading to and from the tunnel but also associated costs, social, economic and environmental arising both in the short and long term. Hopefully the promoters acknowledge the significant technical challenges arising from the structure of the rock fractures running across the route of the tunnel. Also that a tunnel of this length shall for safety reasons require not one but at least two parallel tunnels - the second for emergency access and maintenance. I recall after the horrific St. Gottard Tunnel inflagration regulations for road tunnels in Europe changed significantly increasing overall project cost. I may be wrong but could it be that tunnels allowing vehicles traveling in both directions through the same tunnel are prohibited in the EU? If so then possibly three tunnels are required at significantly higher cost. The rules governing road tunnel construction could be The European Trunk Road Regulations 'TEN-T' which presumably the promoters intend this to be a part, no doubt to obtain a grant under the ERDF/ESF 80/20% EU/Malta grant ratio, changing the sums considerably.
Pule' Carmel
Feb 4th 2011, 10:19
Tunnel or tube, considering the strata existing between Malta and Gozo, I think there would be a need for a coupleof flexible joints!! If it is a tube I can imagine the Bouyancy on a tube of that size. They better anchor it down well or else it will float. What ever is decided, we cannot afford it! in many ways. I know of a company which ordered a local architect to arrange for a floor to be made of special cement and tiles which was to be used to take forklifters and appropriate floor loadings. After less than two years the tiles started coming up or breaking just like biscuits. When we tested the cement , it was well belowed that which was agreed upon, and one could scratch it with a fingernail. In an outlay of about 200,000 pounds the contractor gained about 3000pounds by minimising the cement and the result was inferior to that required to take the loading. I have my own experience with stupid work done by alocal prominent architect. Maltese sand is not good enough for concrete in a tunnel construction, and neither is Maltese structural and constructional integrity.
Pule' Carmel
Feb 4th 2011, 12:14
In the case of an earth tremor or an earthquake,if a crack occurs in a tube tunnel,this can be easily located and repaired from the external locations.I cannot say the same for a tunnel dug under the sea bed where locating the source and fissures would not be that easy.I am sure that in such cases the tunnel would be out of action for many months on end. A bridge could be both graceful and efficient,but still very expensive.If I had such responibility, I would not cut straight across because straight suspension bridges tend to sway sideways too much at the middle. I saw some flat suspension bridges which are arched horisontally and so since they are anchored at either end the arch will stop the sway as this willl be refleted on the anchor ponts unlike a straight bridge.Also an flat arched gridge would not oscillate as the Taucoma Bridge did. but that type of design has now changed and the caternery suspension bridge has been superceeded by Triangulation bridges where the formed triangles do not change shape as the parallelograms in the old catenary bridges. I think a bridge, fine and delicate engineering, tunnels are not as graceful.
H Zammit
Feb 4th 2011, 13:14
The bridge would not be a straight link between Malta & Gozo but would make use of Comino.
H Zammit
Feb 4th 2011, 09:15
Impressive how a person without any knowledge of engineering and science can estimate the cost of his dream. The 150 million is likely to be required to carry out scientific studies, tests and trials. The value is more likely to run in the billion region. It is also strange how the government is ready to start studies simply because one of its MP had a dream. The cry for a bridge has been there for ages but little has been done on the issue. As an architect and engineer I consider the building of a bridge as one of the most challenging and therefore one of the greatest achievements of engineering. As part of my studies I had carried out a study on bridges and carried out a preliminary feasibility study for the Gozo link and things looked promising.
Usually a tunnel will only be considered if a bridge is unfeasible due to very long distances, or turbulent waters as in the English channel, otherwise a bridge is the favoured solution. As a final thought: moles do tunnels, humans do bridges!
Connie Deguara
Feb 4th 2011, 03:31
They built the Sydney harbour tunnel 960 mt. immersed tube.I am sure they can do it from Malta to Gozo. They can check the Sydney harbour tunnel web page.
Victor Paul Borg
Feb 3rd 2011, 22:08
The idea by Chris Said continues to demonstrate that he is a populist, and he says things that create media buzz. He is just trying to create buzz around himself by populist politics.
We could say the same about Joseph Muscat, leader of PL. He's also another populist.
So, we have two young overly-ambitious politicians - Said and Muscat - who are going to resort to lots of populism in the runup to the next election.
Let me remind both of them: populists normally have short political lifespans.
One more thing: €150 million spent wisely in Gozo will do more to improve the economic conditions of Gozo that a tunnel would (or than a bridge, or an airport, for that matter - all of them are hare-brained ideas by populist-politicians suffering from the syndrome of grandeur - after all, it's easy to be a big fish in a small pond).
www.victorborg.com
G Vella
Feb 4th 2011, 10:48
How can the Gozitan people spend 150 million to improve the economy in Gozo.. If the Maltese people dont want to approve any projects in Gozo? The Maltese people just want Gozo to remain isolated and completely green. If the Gozitans are so discriminated that they cant even create jobs in their country, at least they have the right to travel to Malta-Gozo every morning and every evening more decently.
Paul Vassallo
Feb 3rd 2011, 20:55
If a bridge or tunnel is built {in my opion it is a dream} what will the toll be to use the facilities, not many will be able to afford the toll as it will be expensive
Adrian Wirth
Feb 3rd 2011, 20:11
Manoel Bajada Xlendi @ - I'm afraid it is of the greatest interest to the taxpayer as any private sector investor shall expect both guarantees and for their financers 'letters of comfort' from government probably as 'insurer of last resort'. Should the investment enter receivership then liability shall be on government ie THE TAXPAYER. This is precisely the situation that occured in Scotland in the case of 'The Bridge to the Isles' where the taxpayer had to step in and again I think also for a short time when the Channel Tunnel Consorium could not get refinanced the UK and French governments effectively became in the short term majority shareholders of the venture again being 'insurers of last resort'.
Victor Vella
Feb 3rd 2011, 18:55
It is better for Dr Said to wreck his brains and roll his sleeves to try to allievate the problems of the 62,000 people living below poverty line instead of day dreaming about buiding an underwater tunnel between Malta and Gozo. Or it could be that I am mistaken. Perhaps he is thinkig of something great! magnificent! It could be that he and his par idejn sodi boss will penetrate the sea water by employing all the unemployed of Malta and Gozo and even import people from the EU to work in the project. It could be an adequate " Gonzi Weghdi" to win the next election. It could begin after 8 or 10 generations. Perhaps!!!!!
Ray C. Grech
Feb 3rd 2011, 18:18
Nissuggerixxi li nipprattikaw ftit qabel ma nghamlu xi tunnel taht il bahar, billi nghamlu hafna tunnels zghar taht ir-Rabat (Victoria) halli b'hekk nitghallmu mill esperjenza u fl-istess hin nevitaw l-aghar toroq disastruzi li qatt kien hawn f'dawn il gzejjer go lokalita wahda.
G Vella
Feb 3rd 2011, 16:57
The Gozitans dont care if its a bridge or a tunnel. They just need a link between the 2 islands. Tunnel or Bridge.
C Cassar
Feb 3rd 2011, 18:42
The existing ferry system is perfectly adequate for the tiny population of Gozo. Nobody is going to spend the €1-2 billion (yes billion) that will be required to build a tunnel. This doesn't even take into account the show stopping issues of fault lines in the area and regular earth quakes/tremmors that occur in this region.
Basically, Gozo's economy is a million light years from being large enough to justify a physical link with Malta.
David Debono
Feb 3rd 2011, 22:04
@C Cassar
So now we start calculating the population and economy of our tiny villages in order to build a new road or not! Cant you realize that Malta is so so small as a territory and any link or road between it's parts will benefit all? Or maybe you never left tiny malta and think that you're going abroad when you go to gozo?
S. Camilleri
Feb 3rd 2011, 16:15
Actually it could be an interesting ploy. Raise a lot of fuss about a tunnel, its costs and dangers. And then declare you were wrong and the solution is a bridge! Only if we go down this path we'll still be mortgaging the future of the next 5 generations and probably, at the rate of Manwel Dimech bridge, it will still not be built by then!
Alf Galea
Feb 3rd 2011, 16:15
A tunnel that long???? and who is going to pay the maintenance???
If we can't keep and maintain tunnels of about 200 meter, see the regional road tunnels, lighting all awry, tunnel ceiling and walls completely blackened etc. It took years and endless complaints, to patch up a water leak, just imagine with 50 meters of water pressing on top. Not for me dears, it's safer by the ferry, at least i hope......
G Vella
Feb 3rd 2011, 17:01
..then you should check the maintenance expenses of the ferry boats
W. Cauchi
Feb 3rd 2011, 16:00
So today we are not discussing:
1) Divorce, no
2) City Gate/new parliament, no
3) New bus system, no
4) Smart City, no
5) Pensions, no
6) New MP's and Ministers increased honoraria, no
7) Quality of Roads, No
8) Prices of Fuel, Gas, electricity, no
9) The church and peadophilia, no.
10) The new power station, no
err... how many more did i leave out.... the list is endless......
No, somebody up there decided to change the subject completely from more hot subjects and introduced a new toy.......the phantom tunnel to Gozo..... and fools that we are, including myself, fall for this ''red herring''.
It's an old trick and works every time.
James A. Tyrrell
Feb 3rd 2011, 15:32
André Zammit's idea of a tube laid on the seabed rather than 50 metres under it makes a lot more sense to me and indeed was what I thought was being proposed initially. Why go to the trouble, danger and expense of tunnelling under the seabed when you can build the sections on land and extend them across the seabed. Would be interesting to hear what an expert in this form of construction had to say on the matter.
anthony pace gouder
Feb 3rd 2011, 21:17
These are the Gentlemen who Dr.Chris Said should have consulted ,discussed and asked for advice before lumping blindly and adopting naive suggestions . Notably , Andre Zammit A&CE, a specialist in Road Construction, whom I had the honour to assist in his drawing office for a number of years. Andre is also an ex- University Professor, lecturing in the Faculty of Architecture and Engineering . Likewise , Mr A. Xuereb and Mr.P.Gatt, are as notable and outstanding in their relative Profession .
,
EDWIN DE MARCO
Feb 3rd 2011, 15:28
Could it be a case of tunnel vision?!
victor pulis
Feb 3rd 2011, 15:14
One word from a Gozitan businessman and we start day dreaming about another grandiose project. When the idea of building a bridge spanning the breakwater seems to have been put on the back burner (or preferably in the dustbin) here we are discussing an even more pompous undertaking.
ALFRED GRIMA
Feb 3rd 2011, 14:44
Why a tunnel and not a bridge!! like other countries do?
Why are we so different from other countries and simple things are not for us.
We have to complicate things, so that in the end nothing is done.
Just a distraction from the current state of affairs??
Building a bridge would help the Gozotians to commute easier to work, university and shopping. No time wasting.
A toll would still be in force so that maintenance is carried out all year round.
Be realistic, a bridge is the way forward.
Prof P. Sant Cassia
Feb 3rd 2011, 14:04
I am very confident that the Gozitans will pay for this to be built.
Charles Grixti
Feb 3rd 2011, 13:59
A tunnel linking Gozo, Comino and Malta? What a horrible idea.
But most importantly, it is a fantastic way to channel Euro 150 Million plus from the pockets of the taxpayers into the pockets of the private companies that have suggested it.
Where a tunnel/Metro should have been build is in Malta - you know a subway system that can take you from Valletta to Cirkewwa in 15 minutes. Now that would be worth doing and reduce grid-lock and car/bus pollution.
As for Gozo and Comino, their charm lies in the fact that they are separate from Malta. Once they become one piece, you can say goodbye to their unique character and more pristine environment.
Adrian Allain
Feb 3rd 2011, 15:15
"As for Gozo and Comino, their charm lies in the fact that they are separate from Malta. Once they become one piece, you can say goodbye to their unique character and more pristine environment."
I agree with this entirely Charles.
Anyway 2 tunnels or 2 bridges would be required to prevent the inevitable head-on collisions. ;-)
S. Camilleri
Feb 3rd 2011, 16:10
Ditto. However it is important to steer clear of emotional arguments based on 'Gozo charm', 'Unique Character' etc.. The true bottom line is there can never be an economically feasible technical solution for the benefit of 7% of the population. Not even if everyone in Gozo starts paying all their VAT and income taxes!
anthony pace gouder
Feb 4th 2011, 01:00
This evening the Gozo Chamber of Commerce declared their full support for the Channel Tunnel Project, claiming Gozo (i.e, hadd hlief ....??? ) will benefit as Development , Investment and buisness would flourish !
They should take the iniative and organize a Referendum to discover what the Gozitans' truly want .
Gerard Cassar
Feb 3rd 2011, 13:58
I think there are structural engineers in Malta who could be consulted on the matter. Why not gather information from the tunnel under the English Channel. Some answers will be gathered and studied by structural engineers and not just ask for opinion which to be truthful should take time to study, and time cost money. No one will volunteer for the job.
Mark Mamo
Feb 3rd 2011, 13:53
I live in the city of Leipzig in Germany and at the moment we have a tunnel being built with the length of about 1.5 kms which is just about a quarter of the one necessary between Malta and Gozo. Building time was set for about 8 years, costs were set for around half a billion erous, in the meantime corrected to over a Billion!!!
The tunnel needed between Malta and Gozo is much longer and wider than the one in Leipzig and it costs only 150 million! Wooow! I really don´t know if I have to laugh or to cry when I read such nonsense!
A. Sultana
Feb 3rd 2011, 15:03
Your nonsense? Get your facts straight first.
MSciberras
Feb 3rd 2011, 16:00
What facts did he get wrong? He is 100% right. These comments really serve to show that we Maltese truly have the politicians we deserve.....!
Karl Sultana
Feb 3rd 2011, 13:50
One have to understand that this amount of money spent on the tunnel will be recovered withing a period of time. One cannot compare e.g. building a tunnel vs. improving the roads in Gozo. Improving the road there will be no revenue from it but whoever use the tunnel need to pay so the amount of 1st time investment (i think EU funds will be also allocated) will be recovered...
Joe Camenzuli
Feb 3rd 2011, 13:45
In my opinion a bridge would be the best option because it will be more attractive (while crossing) and to make it more useful attach wind turbines to its poles to generate electricty.
david debattistad
Feb 3rd 2011, 13:24
Who is going to pay to build and keep it safe and in good order! What will it cost the individual if he was to use the tunnel. Will the ships still be running. Will they be cheaper! An observation, I have my house in Gozo for the past 22 years and I can tell you, and this is coming from some of my Gozitan friends that it will not be long before Gozo ,with the rate of buildings going up and the way the environment is being abused, will look and smell like Malta. So why build a tunnel when you will only end up going to a smaller island that is a replical of Malta. Not to mention the possibility that it will be more expensive. The money has to come from us if we are to keep the tunnel going and what the hell for. Invest in the environment that is why we go to Gozo and not for some swimming pools or tunnel.
Wilfred Camilleri
Feb 3rd 2011, 13:14
If some of those commenting stopped and listened to what they're saying they would soon realise how proposterous their comments are. If the tunnel is 50 meters under the seabad it would have to come up at least 70 to 80 meters if not more to reach the surface especially considering the hilly nature of Gozo. Imagine a spiral or zig-zag ramp going up 30 storeys and the hundreds of cars in the morning and evening and how unmanagable that would be. It would make the 30 minute ferry ride look like a walk in the park!
L Camilleri
Feb 3rd 2011, 13:03
The chaos caused by traffic passing from Putirjal in Victoria towards the side of San Frangisk through St Francis Square and on to Sannat, Munxar, and Xlendi has to be seen to be believed. A tunnel starting from Mgarr Road running underneath the hill on which the Gozo General Hospital stands and joining the Xlendi/Munxar road at Lunzjata Valley will no doubt bring relief to drivers and even pedestrians with cleaner air in the area. If, as It looks, this is impossible how on earth a tunnel under Comino is possible? We Gozitans have a fast and reliable ferry service, a far cry from the 80's, so why all this talk of the impossible, tunnel or bridge. True crossing over to Malta is inconvenient to daily commuters, and I bear with them having spent two years commuting daily in the 80's under the most of trying conditions, the so called ferries at the time stopping their four a day trips at 5 p.m, but what is convenient this day and age?
r.said
Feb 3rd 2011, 12:56
please no underwater tunnel !
first fix the roads we have then , if you have the extra money, plant some 800 000 trees somewhere , just no tunnel !
imagine how expensive it would be to maintain ! the "toll price" and the impact of the ammount of cars in gozo ! what about the workers with gozo channel ? dont we think anymore?
i do not agree with it , i think that the ferries are good enough for our channel...
A.Spiteri
Feb 3rd 2011, 22:51
Goes to prove the vision some of our parliamenterians have. Like someone said. " We deserve the people we elected" Il poplu Malti u Ghawdxi ihobb jissawwat.
M.Gauci
Feb 3rd 2011, 12:54
Would it be blasphemy to suggest that the south and north Commino channels be reclaimed . No need for tunnels or bridges. The reclaimed land would be turned into a forestation area and 1,2 and 3 claustrophobic islands will become one not so.
Any bright spark please let me know if its possible. Thank you.
r ferriggi
Feb 3rd 2011, 12:49
as many have said,,, this eur 150 M is a huge joke.
it is unbeleivable that a member of parliament cannot get simple costings right.
with 150M eur,,,,, we wont even fix ,,, ( i said fix) the roads in malta and gozo.
LET ALONE DIG A TUNNEL. apart from the fact that this is a bad joke anyway.
S Debono
Feb 3rd 2011, 12:46
What a bunch of whiners. This tunnel is feasible. The channel tunnel which runs 50km across at a depth of 75 metres was built 20 years ago. The Seiken Tunnel in Japan runs 50km across and 240 Metres at its deepest point. So how on Earth is it suddenly impossible for us to build a mere 7km Tunnel?
It's a fine blend of the moronic and negative mindset of you people that keep this country living in the dark ages.
Can anyone please explain why so much is achievable in the rest of the world, but not here? It's amazing how an entire country be so collectively excellent at absolute mediocrity.
Any idiot can see that the only reason for the government rejecting a proposal like this is to protect the private interests of our glorious PM's and ministers' bed buddies and rent boys i.e. the Gozo Channel company. The lucky, lucky men who have so deservedly been awarded any and all profitable government companies for a pittance of their actual worth, that took decades to build with our taxes, under the guise of capitalist progression. Enjoy your ferry service, you deserve it.
david debattistad
Feb 3rd 2011, 15:45
My dear fellow Mr Debono Since you are the GENIUS you should realize that you cannot compare Malta and Gozo to Japan, financially . Yours Faithfully, the rest of us idiots!
PS The view is much better on the ship then in some tunnel DO NOT FORGET YOUR UMBRELLA.
Frans van Avendonk
Feb 3rd 2011, 15:55
I crossed by car through the channel tunnel, it cost me 169 Sterling one way. Did not drive myself but was "sitting" in a train, loading time etc calculated the crossing took still well over an hour and there was no queue before boarding. The train reaches a speed of over 150KM/h while under water! I also drove through Mont Blanc and St Gothard tunnels and still remember the sweaty hands I got from that experience!
anthony pace gouder
Feb 3rd 2011, 16:30
It's easier said than done when you completely ignore the facts . Geology is the primary factor in Tunnelling , which you ignored completely .
Firstly you should know that the Channel Tunnel known as The Euro Tunnel was feasable as the excavation was through a relatively 'soft' CHALK marl Strata . Another advantage was that an 'impervious', no water penetration layer of CLAY above it prevented water seepage from the sea above .
On the Contrary, our proposed tunnel , will run through 'wet' pervious rock layers , mainly globigerina and possiobly coralline limestone .
As stated by geologist P Gatt the seabed is even characterised by large geological faults , represented by crack-like , in this case 'water clogged' fissures running in angled generally vertical direction all along the particular rock strata or layer. I presume, an efficient method of stopping water seepage at high pressure and prevent total flooding has still to be devised .!
S. Camilleri
Feb 3rd 2011, 12:43
Finally some comments and views that make sense! I suggest that Lawyers (and Notaries) stick to what they know best and stop playing -- even if it is just dreaming at this point -- with the financial future of our country.
Alfred Grech
Feb 3rd 2011, 12:41
In my not so humble opinion, a tunnel will be very expensive, troublesome project to build and maintain and perhaps impractical. I would rather see a bridge than a tunnel. Check this bridge built in Canada - it won't spoil the view if it's built neat like this one:
http://www.craigmarlatt.com/canada/provinces&territories/PE.html
Alternatively, 2 catamarans from Valletta-Bugibba-Gozo will do the trick.
M.Muscat
Feb 3rd 2011, 12:40
L-egoizmu li tara f certi kummenti igelek tisthi tghid li malti. Ghax mghandiex bzonn link bejn ghawdex u malta u ghax mhux se nuzah jien allura hela ta flus tghamlux. Jien malti imma meta mmur ghawdex narah qisu malta fin 1980s u jekk isir link permanenti jkun jista jizviluppa u nsiru vera pajjiz maqghud u wiehed, tibqawx taraw l ghawdxin qishom xi nies inferjuri ghalina. Halluhom ha jevalwaw kull possibilita', tunnel, bridge, arial tramway bil muturi u roti tal kiri etc, mbaghad jaraw kemm se jiswa kif se ngibu flus lura u f kemm, bmod dirett u indirett. Li ma rridx nara hu li jigi abbuzat min kuntratturi etc ma ngibux ghawdex gungla tal konkrijt bhal malta. Irridu nharsu l boghod min xiber mnihirna, xse nghamlu sa 50 sena ohra ma tixtiequx li xi darba jkollna underground tram u naqsu pollution u karozzi u traffic u konfuzjoni, u nirbhu l-ispazju li m ghadx fadal fil pajjiz. Tarawx mil-lum ghal ghada imma x se nhallu warajna ghal generazzjonijiet li jmiss u lil ta warajhom. Iva toroq ovvja li jridu jitrangaw ukoll hux.
D. Borg
Feb 3rd 2011, 17:10
Prosit M.Muscat. Tal-inqas hawn xi hadd mill gzira l-ohra li nduna li ahna kollha Maltin, fejn uhud jghixu f'Ghawdex u uhud f''Malta. Ghawdex u ta kulhadd mhux tan nies li jghixu hemm biss, bhalma M'Xlokk hu tieghi ukoll avolja noqghod Ghawdex. U gost niehu meta nisma li se tinbena triq gdida lejn M'Skala ghax b'xi mod jew iehor iktar ma nimxu l-quddiem kollha flimkien iktar jaqbel lil kulhadd.
J. Camilleri
Feb 3rd 2011, 12:36
Jekk impossibli issir under water tunnel issir bridge.
M'hemmx tahseb! Amilna daqshekk skandli go dan l-pajjiz!
Bridge li huwa tant bzonnjuz u importanti ghal uliedna mhux ser naghmlu!!!
(Fir-ritratt bahar bnazzi jidher! Poggu wiehed fil-maltemp! Imsieken l-ghawdxin li jridu jmorru Malta klujum ghax-xoghol jew universita!
Adrian Wirth
Feb 3rd 2011, 12:35
Who ever says about the financing 'it's of no concern to the taxpayer'. It is, I'm one and I'm sure there are others too numerous to count who are equally concerned. Without geophysical surveys, without appraisals, without impact assessments let alone environmental impact assessments a top of the head guestimate of cost has been quoted as €150 millions. A 'cut and cover' tunnel will demand total burial beneath the seabed and therefore the excavation of a trench greater in thickness than the cross section of the tunnel, unless international maritime law is changed, as the Gozo Channel is an open international seaway and nothing can rise above the natural seabed and therefore this is far less cost saving than may be imagined.
Assume 50% cost inflation to €225 million then add annual maintenance costs, bank interest servicing charges round it up to a servicable funding requirement of about €250 million. Without capital repayment obligations the interest due alone might be something in excess of €13 million annually at 5%. Including capital repayment over twenty years plus a return on capital investment (Private Sector risk) - No, why should I do your sums - you want it.
Manoel Bajada Xlendi
Feb 3rd 2011, 18:14
@Adrian - I said it is of no concern to the tax payer as it will be a private interest. Moreover projects like this will be looked at over a period of 80-100 years. A lot of us Maltese Citizens on this side of the divide have definately made our sums and know exactly what we want. I suggest you and moaners like you should seriously make your sums and work out what the cost of keeping Gozo isolated is to the Taxpayer.
E Gatt
Feb 3rd 2011, 12:26
GERMANY TO DENMARK TUNNEL COST PUT AT €4,200M
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12347525
Granted, at 4.5km the distance between Malta and Gozo is ¼ the 18km length of the proposed tunnel between Germany and Denmark . It is also true that costs may be higher up North. However ¼ of €4,200m is €1,050m. The cost of the Gozo tunnel was reported at €150m. Could it be that whoever estimated the cost forgot a ‘0’, between the ‘1’ and the ‘5’?
J.Barnes
Feb 3rd 2011, 14:02
Please read carefully, the cost is "billions" not millions.
E Gatt
Feb 3rd 2011, 14:42
@ J.Barnes
I double checked the website. It is €4,200 million ( €4.2 billion).
J.Barnes
Feb 3rd 2011, 18:30
Then i wish to querie your maths, the story you refer too quotes all figures in "b" = billions, not"m" =millions. this is the wikepedia definition Million: 1,000,000
Billion: 1,000,000,000
Trillion: 1,000,000,000,000
the zeros only apply before the decimal point, you can have as many as you like after but it is meaningless!
E Gatt
Feb 3rd 2011, 18:55
@ J.Barnes
1,000 million (m) = 1 billion (bn)
€4.2 billion = €4,200,000,000
€4,200 million = €4,200,000,000
Where can I send my fee for the maths lesson please?
C.Formosa
Feb 3rd 2011, 19:45
Mr Barnes, what on earth are you on about?
P.Cassar
Feb 3rd 2011, 12:24
AN AMATEUR IDEA ........FROM AN AMATEUR MINISTER............... IN AN AMATEUR GOVT.
Ninu Cassar
Feb 3rd 2011, 23:39
P.Cassar don't insult amateurs
tony fava
Feb 3rd 2011, 12:23
IBQA OHLOM CHRIS. MINN FEJN SE JIGU IL-FLUS ? FORSI MILL 1EURO 16 CENT LI GONZIPN GHOGBU JAGHTI BHALA ZIEDA ?. FORSI SE TRODDU LURA KOLLOX SABIEX TISTIMULAW IL-PROJETT TA' TFULITEK ? GHAX VERA TIFEL TRID TKUN BIEX TOHLOM DAN IL-PROJETT META KULHADD QED JGHIDLEK U FIL-FATT KULHADD JAF LI KULL PROJET HAWN MALTA DEJJEM GIE JISWA HAFNA U HAFNA AKTAR MILLI KIEN ORIGINARJAMENT STMAT. U MINBARRA HEKK WARA LI NFAQTU DAQS DAWK MILJUNI F'VAPURI U TERMINALS GHAL GHAWDEX ISSA TIGI B'DIN IL-PROPOSTA BIEX JINQDEW FTIT ELUF. AHJAR NIBDEW BIT-TOROQ GHAX KIF GHAMLET FTIT XITA GHEREQ KULLIMKIEN. U MINBARRA HEKK IL-POPLU MALTI KEMM SE JIFLAH JHALLAS TAXXI GHAL DAN IL-PROJETT. WARA KOLLOX DIN IL-HOLMA TIEGHEK QAJJIMTA SABIEX TIGBOR FTIT GIEH GONZIPN.
adrian mifsud
Feb 3rd 2011, 14:25
Mr.Tony Fava, first of all PROJETT is written PROGETT in pure and correct maltese. In your opinion this so called tunnel project is all just a waste of money because only a few thousands will benefit from it. and that is discrimination. Now let me tell you what that means to those few thousands. I worked in Malta for 6 years which obviously meant crossing back and forth every single day. I started work at 8 am but to be there on time i had to leave home at 5.30am to catch the 6am ferry. Not mentioning of course that i had to wake up at 4.45am. Now the Maltese colleague working next to my desk used to get up a 7am to get to work punctually. So I used to sleep 2.15 hours less. Then we finished work at 5pm, my colleague would be home by 5.20pm while i would still be at birkirkara on the bus stucked in traffic also missing the 6pm ferry. Getting on the 7pm ferry i used to get home at around 7.45pm. Then i would eat, shower and get into bed because i needed to wake up again at 4.45am the day after.
A Theuma
Feb 3rd 2011, 12:19
Linking Malta with Gozo is of fundamental importance to Gozo' s residents and more importantly to its economy. The ferry and its schedules are no longer viable in this day and age due to the ever-increasing demand, by Gozitans to commute to Malta, on work-related matters. Many are those young Gozitans who are choosing to reside permanently in Malta, in order to prevail the numerous hardships, Gozitans have to face every single day. Gozo will soon be reduced into a mature - habiated island and consequently it will have to adopt Comino's rank and status.
The tunnel idea may finally provoke MPs to heed the wailing voices of the lesser - populated island. Hopefully however other means of linking Gozo with Malta could be considered, in the sense that this means must be, viable and time-efficient. My dream if feasible, would be a direct underground tunnel from Mgarr Gozo to Valletta. With the passing of time this underground can be extended towards other localities. This would certainly dispose of frustrating traffic-congestions, whilst providing Maltese and Gozitan residents the means to arrive in certain key localities in the nick of time.
Julian Esposito
Feb 3rd 2011, 12:16
A tunnel between Ricasoli-Valletta-Tigne would be interesting to investigate. The sea spans just 350 metres average.
Frans van Avendonk
Feb 3rd 2011, 12:08
Just looking at the landscape you can see that the tunnel would have to cross 4 geological fault-lines! These are notorious for driving up costs, they also increase difficulty levels of the construction. Another observation is the way people drive , in short tunnels like Santa Venera people are unable to exercise lane discipline, what to expect for a many kilometers long underground trip???
Joey Borg
Feb 3rd 2011, 13:16
.. and not to mention the traffic mayhem caused if someone's car breaksdown inside the tunnel! happens in St Venera tunnel too
c. Borg
Feb 3rd 2011, 12:03
'Some are saying ''you would have to start it from Għajnsielem'', are you sure? Ghajnsielem is uphill all the way and the further back you go the higher you get, meaning that this adds at lease another 50 meters ,making total gradient of over 100 meters. To make it acceptable for traffic and the gradient not being too steep, then the entrance on Gozo side will have to be well past Xewkija.
Is this feasible?
S. Camilleri
Feb 3rd 2011, 13:31
Well pointed out.
A.Sultana
Feb 3rd 2011, 16:19
Do you even know where Xewkija starts?
M. Gauci
Feb 3rd 2011, 17:54
The English channel is not so much deeper and the entrance on the England side is nearly 10 km inland.
With the same proportion the entrance of the tunnel in Gozo, would be nearer to Ghasri. Ftit iehor u jibda mit-tunnel tal bahar tad-Dwejra.
Kemm handna experts.....
DMallia
Feb 3rd 2011, 12:00
Jien minix espert, imma jekk isir xi tip ta bridging bejn Malta u Ghawdex via Kemmuna jew le, il-Gzejjer Maltin zgur ma jibqghux il-gzejjer kif nafuhom illum.
Joe Borg
Feb 3rd 2011, 11:56
great talking Mr. Gatt at least there is someone on the island with some sense. and lets not forget the fact about the st. venera tunnels which on a span of some 150 meters the burrowing machines had a 2 meter levelling error. i can't imagine what will happen on a span as big as that between malta and gozo.
but obviously it wil all depend on who is oiling the political gears and how much the political pockets are filled.
ray de Bono
Feb 3rd 2011, 11:48
Experts query Malta and Gozo underwater tunnel feasibility: SINCE WHEN ARE SO SPECIFICALLY ADVANCED SURVEYS DONE SO QUICKLY? Seriously, Gozo's isolation is to a larger extent, a Gozitan problem. Gozitans have over the millennia suffered or capitalized from their location. Us Malta-based people, or expats residing in Gozo, can only see one part of the situation. People who live all-year-round in Gozo, face the realities of a small, sister island directly and daily. As I see it, the ball is in the Gozitan’s court. If they believe a bridge, or a tunnel will help improve their lives, then - by all means - I wish them all luck in convincing (a) the Maltese authorities, (b) pseudo-experts (including the media), (c) real experts, (d) potential investors/financiers (the EU?) and finally, (e) the public at large. I would give a lot more weighting (and respect) to the Gozitan people’s will, in this case, as they are the people who will mostly be effected by such an investment.
Ian Bugeja
Feb 3rd 2011, 11:41
I am no expert but I would think that it would be more esthetically and feasible to build a bridge, between the two islands.
Regarding the tunnel I guess it makes more sense for Gozitians to have one dug from Xemxija till Ghadira/Marfa going under Mellieha since such a tunnel would make the trip shorter and avoid pollution and traffic in Mellieha.
S Gouder
Feb 3rd 2011, 11:35
Wouldn't an underground metro system make more sense if we're ready to invest that much money?
Carmel Garcia
Feb 3rd 2011, 11:27
Bla...Bla...Bla.... u jerga ma jsir xejn, bhal 40 sena ilu. Nibnu l-kastelli fl-arja bhas-soltu....hehehe
j camilleri
Feb 3rd 2011, 12:37
Propjament mhux kastelli fl-ajra, imma mini tal-bahar!!! Figuratively speaking, I think it means the same thing - that is, its just waffle to get us (il-pupazzi bl-ispaga, John Bundy would say), would have something to debate, and alienate us from the real issues!
K. Rizzo
Feb 3rd 2011, 11:06
In sythesis the people DO NOT want this tunnel because it is a waste of money at this stage! Stick it into your heads and please stop bullying useless ideas like the new parliament. The country has priorities and you are getting them totally wrong! Before making a road in the sea isn't it a priority to take our the sea of water from our existing roads first?! It's not even common sense, it's ordinary sense! Not to mention the other multitude of issues that should take priority over such "kapricci" like an underwater tunnel or double pays for the selected few!
Dam me when I voted for you!
K. Cauchi
Feb 3rd 2011, 11:05
Let the preliminary study take place and we will than make conclusions from there. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter whether it is a tube or a tunnel as long as it makes Gozo more accessable!
Reuben Abela
Feb 3rd 2011, 11:05
apart from the financial feasibility or unfeasibility of the project everyone keeps mentioning this long ramp that is needed for where there is no space in gozo... why not do a long spiralling road going down like one finds in most multi-level car parks... it won't take more than an area of 30 x 30 meters
C Cassar
Feb 3rd 2011, 13:37
This gets more hilarious as the days go by.
Albert Farrugia
Feb 3rd 2011, 11:04
Reading these comments from experts makes one wonder...who said that the project is easy? But hey...they are building tunnels all over the world today...lastes announcement is from scandinavia where they are planning a tunnel to germany. Being an island is, in this day and age simply out. Unless one wants to be an idyllic, quite place. Clearly this is not what the people of Malta (and Gozo) aspire to. Pres. Kennedy once said "We do not do things because they are easy, but because they are hard."
S. Camilleri
Feb 3rd 2011, 13:43
So you consider linking two economies like Denmark and Germany to be on par to linking the economy of Malta to that of Gozo!?? OMG, people must surely be living in cuckoo land.
The Denmark-Germany tunnel at 18km would cost OVER €5 billion (first estimates) and the terrain on both sides is fairly low lying (no steep exit ramps). There is nearly 5km of sea between our Islands. Fourth grade maths is enough to give you a true picture of the scale of such an undertaking.
Albert Farrugia
Feb 3rd 2011, 14:44
With such a strong emotional reaction from the "No" camp to this proposal, I suspect there are some other reasons behind them, not just economic and financial. There are some who would still spread the myth that Gozo is somehow "different" from Malta, that it is some sort of "exotic colony" of Malta, and that it's "so much fun" to experience the sea passage. Yeah, right! Now, just ask the Gozitans what they think of it.
Because of the thick-hedaidness of many, more than 6 per cent of the population of Malta (yes, Gozo IS Malta) is cut off from developments and investments which happen on the main island. This is plainly unfair.
And, since we are on the subject, can, please, all those concerned remove from the jardon the expression "il-Maltin u l-Ghawdxin"?? When someone is adressing the whole nation, there are only "Maltin".
A.Vella
Feb 3rd 2011, 16:23
Mr Farrugia,
It is you who should quit complaining of how hard a deal you have in Gozo.
If you see the amount per capita the government spends on Gozo ( as opposed to the tax revenue) you will see that Malta is underpriveleged.
As to those whingeing about travelling to work and university what do you think other people do in the rest Europe? Vera mfissdin.
A. Micallef
Feb 3rd 2011, 11:02
CAJTA GOFFA U BOMBASTIKA li ser tibqa imsemmija ! Dnub li ma hargitx
1 ta April. Din ser issir cajta u laqam. Ghawdex hemm ta Mena us isssa
hemm wahda gdida "TAl - MINA".
D.axiaq
Feb 3rd 2011, 11:00
Kumbinazzjoni l- bierah fuq website tal BBC habbru li se jssir underwater tunnel bejn Germany u Denmark 18 km long. Cost is 4.6 BILLION EUROS mill- inqas!
Nahseb holom xi holma Chris!
Philip Sultana
Feb 3rd 2011, 14:47
I am sure that as true professionals our Parliamentary Secretaries would not have just made up the figures based on some rough calculations. But the Germany-Denmark tunnel will cost about €256 million per kilometre, so can Parliamentary Secretary, Chris Said, explain his figures?
May Pullicino
Feb 3rd 2011, 10:59
It will be much better if PN Chris Said fixes the Gozo roads instead of underwater tunnel, with all that money hi can make Gozo look like Heaven on earth.
Emanuel Bajada
Feb 3rd 2011, 10:56
Let's not throw out the baby with the bath water. I will not at this stage question what is feasible or not. If it is not a tunnel or a seabed tube (or immersed tube) it would be a bridge, easily done and feasible. As regards financing the project, this should be of no concern to the taxpayer as this will be total undertaken by private interest. All the government has to do is give a shout about it and the Japanese and Cinese would crawl on each other to build it and bring with them expierience - Taxpayers should worry about the financing of the Valletta entrance useless project as that is out of our pockets, as much as were the 1 billion debts of the now defunct Malta Shipyards. The issue now is that finally now we all have realised that the only solution for Gozo is a permanent link. Thanks Chris for your initiative.
Jesmond Micallef
Feb 3rd 2011, 11:11
I think that the link in whatever shape or form has the potential to incorporate a Toll system too.
Victor Vella
Feb 3rd 2011, 11:28
And may I ask what would the toll fee be for each crossing? would the Gozitans then request a subsidy in thier cost of living to cater for the expences incurred?
Jesmond Micallef
Feb 3rd 2011, 13:09
Victor Vella, I haven't got the slightest clue. I admit, it was instinctive of me to comment in such a manner but what I had in mind is a maintenance contribution which is quite common on european road networks. So, please, this was just me thinking loud, that's all.
C Cassar
Feb 3rd 2011, 13:47
What private "interest" is going to invest between €1-2 billion when there will be no visible return unless the toll for any link will need to be over €100 in order to break even? Over a 20 year period ata cost of €1 billion (a condervative estimate) , revenues of around €140,000 a day would be required. EVen if 1000 cars a day used the crossing (which is highly unlikely), that's €140 per crossing. This doesn't even take into account the interest payments on a load of €1000000, which would be over €100,000 per day. What about maintenance costs on top of this?
Best save discussion of the "Malta - Gozo" link until April 1st.
g.sinagra
Feb 3rd 2011, 10:51
Besides it will kill phrases such as 'let's escape to Gozo for a bit of peace and quiet'
A Cremona
Feb 3rd 2011, 12:06
Who are all these experts who are writing on things they know absolutely nothing about? A big thank you to all those who commented that feasibility studies, geological studies, etc would need to be carried out before such a project. That was a real brainwave and a massive contribution. I'm sure no one including the Parliamentary Secretary would have got that. So thanks for pointing it out.
At last a proposal for a major infrastructural project as an EU Member State. Not just some road to Bidnija or And before this debate even kicks off one needs to assess whose hardships this vital link goes to address - i.e. the Gozitan business community and Gozo in general who is suffering a massive brain drain and economic meltdown. (Check occupancy rates of Gozo hotels vs hotels in Malta, average age of Gozo, number of factories, etc). The input of commentators' who are not privy to such hardships as that of Mr. Sinagra have to be taken with a pinch of salt and an important degree of humour. They add fun to the debate but just that.
david gulia
Feb 3rd 2011, 10:50
Only made in Malta.....already started shooting the possibilties of viability and where all over the the world where there is a will there is a way,but in Malta we start "MEQ MEQ" Goverment should be open for investors who have interest even internationally,who has the intention to invest if it is feasible whom I am sure they know there job and there is no need to point our fingers to mp Chris Said and bla bla!After all we all go abroad and we know that all auto strada and tunnels are private and thats why they are well maintained.
Peter Korsten
Feb 3rd 2011, 11:12
The point is not the link itself, but a tunnel drilled 50 metres under the seabed. Is that so difficult to understand? It's never going to work. Instead of looking at something that is feasible, immediately the most complex solution is proposed, thus ensuring that it'll never happen.
Paul Caruana
Feb 3rd 2011, 10:42
.....or we might just come to our senses, and go for a Malta - Comino - Gozo bridge.
D M Grech
Feb 3rd 2011, 10:55
In the same way that the Piano / City Gate project will be a tourist attraction so could a Calatrava (?) / Gozo Bridge
Philip Sultana
Feb 3rd 2011, 14:31
No wonder our tourist industry is such a failure. We have little idea what tourists find attractive.
Steve Zammit
Feb 3rd 2011, 18:45
Oh so now you want to destroy Comino too?
r ferriggi
Feb 3rd 2011, 10:37
the problem of crossing between the two islands can be solved very easily.
just look at the isole eolie off messina.
catamarans and ferries work together al the time. there is no problem there. you cn use fast means or slower means to cross.
basically,,,, the name of the game is COMPETITION to this monopoly monster that we have called GOZO CHANNEL.
Emanuel Bajada
Feb 3rd 2011, 11:04
We have tried fast crossing - for your info in 1964 we already had a fast crossing via the ali scafi Delphin - the crossing time from Grand Harbout to Mgarr was 30 mins. The catamaran was introduced twice in the 2000s, all died a natural death as it does not work. Gozo Channel ferry service is at its maximum of efficiency, cannot be made more efficient and no it is the only service that must be a monopoly as much as any important road to your town is - note that the ferry is our road.
Jesmond Micallef
Feb 3rd 2011, 10:35
If I may quote Anġlu Xuereb here: “To descend to that level, you would need a really long ramp. On the Malta side, it may not be such a problem but in Gozo, you would have to start it from Għajnsielem,”.
Maybe a gradual spiral or a stepwise zig zig in alternate directions would offer alternative access in comparison to a long slope leading into the tunnel. Still, such an massive civil engineering undertaking would require precise geological and technical knowledge. Any potential seismic activity would also need to be taken into account. The geological faults described in this news item may be attributed to just that.
The building of a "tubular" tunnel structure above the seabed is also very interesting. Maybe the Malta Joint Group of UK Engineers proposal made 40 years ago, can be made available to the public somehow, via the internet. I never knew about this and would like to know more about it.
With best wishes to this feasibility study but still may the dream come true, somehow !!
l fenech
Feb 3rd 2011, 10:32
Imma forsi ghal l'elezzjoni tigbor zewg voti.
MSciberras
Feb 3rd 2011, 10:21
The fact that the euro 150 million idea was floated by a serving parliamentary secretary, who did not even bother to provide sources or detailed financial costings for his estimate of the costs, just goes on to show what type of people we have leading us in government. Oh and even the proposed tube will need a very long ramp on either side; on the Gozo side it will destroy alot of the urban and natural environment, on the Malta side it will all but destroy prime diving sites....... Lets just move on and stop being so ridiculous
M.Aguis
Feb 3rd 2011, 10:46
Are you another expert Mr.Sciberras? It seems this country is full of experts. Let them do the studies and look into every possibility. Kulhadd irida ta lespert dal-pajjiz. Now we will get a torrent of expert comments. If only ToM could add the thumbs up/down feature so I could thumb down all the stupid comments without wasting my time and theirs.
Etienne A. Calleja
Feb 3rd 2011, 10:49
You know this because you were privvy to the proposal and you therefore know that no costings were submitted, against your express instructions (enlightened as they are)? The same goes for not providing sources (whatever this means, as it's not a thesis after all, but a proposal)
You were involved in the whole process all along weren't you? The dsgruntled financial consultant who remained unheard and unheeded as the maniacal Parliamentary Secretary, in the grips and throes of a paroxysamal fit and frenzy of architectural gluttony, went about spawning his evil and devilish plans and, ignoring the protests of his people, plied the proposal on an unwitting and naive Prime Minister - this to the dismay of all and sundry.....I'm sure.
Somehow, I'm thankful that we aren't as yet governed by people like you.
MSciberras
Feb 3rd 2011, 14:45
Nice turn of phrase..........I am no financial consultant but a voter and a taxpayer. As a voter and a taxpayer, I am not impressed when a politician comes up with a proposal, says it will cost euro 150MIO and does not provide a single shred of evidence such as budgets, projections etc and a proper feasibility study. The one study mentioned by the parl secretary is a decades old very preliminary study that did not involve any thorough analysis of the sea bed or the access and exit points on the two islands. Such a properly conducted study alone would cost millions........ Read the article again. And then maybe learn how to become an intelligent voter, who is not hoodwinked by politicians stealing the limelight with grandoise, poorly-planned schemes. For example - in Malta we currently have a first rate hospital, Mater Dei. Yet Mater Dei cost hundreds of millions more than it should have because different governments changed their plans and signed a contract that did not set a final price for the hospital. Of course, as many politicians both PN and PL will tell you, it is easier in life to just dream and impress gullible voters.......
a. sciberras
Feb 3rd 2011, 10:07
finally we are talking some sense. such a proposal does not make any economic, environmental or social sense. this is coming from a gozitan who travels on a regular basis to malta to work. i believe we should continue on making the ferry service as efficient as possible and stop at that! yes we gozitans do not have it easy, but that is what makes us and gozo the way we are. building a tunnel would change our whole identity.
David Sciberras
Feb 3rd 2011, 11:02
Sorry but you just contradicted yourself. You either want a service as efficient as possible or you feel afraid of the maltese and continue to feel at ease if isolated only. If you really treasure the status quo you should have said that you want a shoddy service like we gozitans are having now, and that you dont want it to improve....so that you dont feel a threat to your gozitan mentality.
a. sciberras
Feb 3rd 2011, 13:05
@david sciberras
i never said that the gozo channel are giving the service they should be giving. at times far from that! if there was physical room for competition i would have agreed that we have competition to gozo channel so each and every one of us would be able to choose between ferry or catamaran services. but let's face it there is no physical space & few would want to run such a risk! and no i don't feel afraid of fellow maltese. they are our best tourists. but for something to work i feel that it needs to make sustainable sense and the tunnel definitely does not.
David Sciberras
Feb 3rd 2011, 17:57
Agree about the tunnel, not sure it is easier and cheaper than a bridge. But you know how things are right? First they dont care less about work in Gozo, or the conditions or hardships that the people have to endure for every service they need in Malta. But then if someone mentions a bridge, then we all go out to protect the "alka" and pontificate how Gozo is beautiful because it is isolated and that kind of crap.