Tim Ripard, Vienna, Austria
Betrayal of Catholic vows
Mgr Anton Gouder has been quoted as asking: “Is it correct to allow people to go back on their word?” The answer is a resounding “Yes”, according to the Catholic Church. Catholic priests do it – they get released from their vows.
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victor pulis
Sep 5th 2010, 12:18
C Cini(1 day, 23 hours ago)
'You are mistaken to say that priests are released from their vows. The sacrament of Holy Orders is for ever and does not depend upon the exercise his priestly ministry or not. In the case of marriage is different, it involves the other person and not only God.'
But we don't have to believe that just because the church (not the gospel) says it. That's the difference between someone who closes his eyes and accepts everything the church dishes out and those who ask for an explanation.
Priesthood is a vocation, a personal call from God. 'If one puts his hand to the plough and then turns back he is not worthy of the kingdom of God.' Now THAT'S from the gospel.
Joe Zammit
Sep 4th 2010, 03:57
Marriage is for ever as established by God himself. The priesthood is for ever as well. As a matter of fact a priest, on being ordained, receives the indelible mark of Holy Orders. Even if he goes to hell, that mark will remain on him for all eternity.
What a priest can do is to drop out of the pastoral work, not out of his priesthood. That means he remains a priest, gives up doing pastoral work and, after getting the dispensation, he can marry. Now, the indissolubility of marriage applies to him as well. He cannot divorce if his marriage fails.
There are cases where a Catholic priest can be married and exercise pastoral work too. These are cases in the Eastern Catholic Church and of those Protestant (Anglican, Lutheran, etc) pastors who have converted to the Catholic Church and are permitted to remain priests doing pastoral work as well.
Mark Zerafa
Sep 5th 2010, 02:46
Good. I am not a Catholic (and proud of it), so there is no reason why I should be bound by your unfounded beliefs. Thank you. Keep your religion to yourself. We have had enough of your claptrap. Let me go to hell, i want to.
Joseph Micallef
Sep 5th 2010, 10:14
"What a priest can do is to drop out of the pastoral work, not out of his priesthood. " OK so tell me what good a priesthood is without partoral work? How is it that this man still has priesthood but then does not us it? What makes priesthood - a mere title? Or is it some kind of magic!! What are you talking about Joe? These are the ways the Catholic church wrings and twists facts to justify itself. If one does not live priesthood then one is not a priest! Yeah sure he can still administer sacraments - when, where?!! Nowhere! Such priests usually go into hiding for a while because of some scandal they might cause!
Joe Xuereb
Sep 3rd 2010, 22:43
@Ms.M.Thake. 'Just as in Baptism, we are baptised Catholic for eternity....(we may, of course, renounce our Faith), but we still remain Baptised'. We are born with genetic features, hopefully pleasing enough. We are born atheists. We are baptised after birth by a man in a dress. Of course it can be undone. What if a Catholic converts to another religion (e.g.Islam), does s/he remain a Catholic because of a ladleful of water that stung his/her eyes, mere ritual? I myself signed a form, in front of witnesses - we had such a laugh, Maryanne - and voila`! I excommunicated myself. I could be buried in a Mizbla - see if I goddamn care! So any cleric thinking of threatening me with that - don't waste your time mate. See how kind I am Maryanne. So said priest can spend more time ministering to your insurmountable needs. Don't let him too near, will you now!
quote: "(Baptism is a) contract" between man and God who NEVER...... The contract was between the man in a dress and the old man with a long beard and a booming voice. I had no say in it.
I renounced the faith and didn't drop dead.
Joe Xuereb
Sep 3rd 2010, 22:11
2) I've been half expecting this woman to appear to me in a dream to say there is a heaven. Maybe there is, maybe there ain't. She might be terrified of repercussions from her family, such was her lifelong humiliation by her church-going family-members and the illegitimate children they produce.
Verily I say unto thee. This woman lived a living-hell. Being murdered at the beginning would have been sweeter. Do you still not see the connection, C.? Sorry, but this is as much spoon-feeding as I have time to give you.
Joe Xuereb
Sep 3rd 2010, 21:58
1)@C.Cini (8hrs.10mins.ago-in response to KennthCassar 12hrs.7mins.ago).
C., a bit more depth, please. Mr. Cassar is not saying that murder is comparable to marriage. The operative word is 'promise'. Anybody, man or woman, indissolubly attached to a violent, abusive, spouse 'till death us do part' is in fact condemned to a living death worse than murder. Think about it C., think about it. It's easy if you try.
I know a woman who decided to stay with a violent husband because it was the right thing to do and worth it 'as heaven was awaiting'. After a lifetime's abuse both physical and mental by her husband and HER OWN CHILDREN (and the damage this did them), she died an ignominous death by cancer just months ago.
Paying lip-service to my homosexuality I was not told which hospice she was in, nor the day of the funeral. They virtually manipulated even while lying in her coffin. They all go to church on Sundays. And the connection? The connection is that the church endorses vilification of homosexuality. That is the connection. It's not so much lateral-thinking, C. You could try it. It might be your first step towards some semblance of truth.
continued
Joseph Micallef
Sep 3rd 2010, 16:32
I wonder what's the use of remaining and priest when married when you are not allowed to adminster sacraments etc! I mean what does make a priest actually - If a priest does not administer sacraments and does not behave as a priest and actually leads a normal married life, then what's different between this man and any other married man? Is Priesthood a mere title then? In fact we don't even keep using "father x" etc but we start referring to the person with just a name. So actually it is just a stupid way for the church to justify itself when it claims that the priest remains a priest for life - total rubbish! Its like saying that I am mechanic but never see cars, and never fix them - laughable!
anna muscat
Sep 3rd 2010, 18:02
Why all this harshness? I thought one was allowed to state one's views without being reprimanded like schoolchildren. Obviously one can hardly be "in favour of" something which causes sorrow. - be it divorce or abortion- and I know they are two completely different issues, but that doesn't mean I can't mention it or state my opinion. All I'm saying is that laying down a law to control and regularize (then of course we can debate on the when and how and in which case etc) something which is happening anyway, out of the law and under people's noses, is much healthier, more democratic and civilised - and that's how it works in the majority of countries. Being personally against something, which involves very personal moral ethics, myself and for myself does not give me the right to impose my will on others. I would never ever resort to abortion myself but I can't prohibit a raped teenage girl from having one in the safety of a state hospital. One can choose not to end a marriage in divorce but why prohibit other people from doing so and getting remarried?
Joseph Micallef
Sep 3rd 2010, 21:28
Ms Muscat I totally agree with what you just said in this reply - but my criticism earlier was that you put divorce and abortion in the same basket. That way you were telling those against divorce that they are right in saying that if divorce becomes legal then - as a natural consequence - abortion will be introduced as well. Secondly you also said that a law on abortion (along with divorce) should be introduced as the lesser evel - while earlier you had said that when a priest leaves the priesthood to marry it has no consequence on others! Don't you think that abortion has a consequence on others? What about the unborn child? I for one, and I am sure many are like me, am in favour of divorce but totally against abortion - which for me would me legallised murder!
Anna Muscat
Sep 4th 2010, 11:19
Don't you think a total non-abortion attitude can have more evil consequences on others too? Think about it. To be TOTALLY AGAINST in such a delicate multi - faced issue is rather weak, to say the least. Of course, being a woman I might see things differently. As I said, my reasoning goes beyond the issues - there must be a better, civilised way in dealing with delicate matters than simply putting one's foot down and saying " I'm totally against" when those matters concern the lives of other people too.
Joe Zammit
Sep 3rd 2010, 16:29
I have missed Mgr Gouder's interview on RTK, but if he said that divorce is a grave sin and that to vote for divorce is likewise a grave sin, he was completely correct. He has the sound infallible teaching of the Catholic Church behind what he is alleged to have said.
Marriage is for ever. This applies also to civil marriages. In all marriages it is God who is joining two together and no man, no State can put asunder what God has united together. After all in the Genesis itself we find this indissolubility of marriage, thousands of years before the coming of Christ, let alone the institution of marriage as a sacrament.
In her 2000-year history the Catholic Church has never resorted to dissolve a validly contracted marriage that has been consummated.
Regarding cohabitants I have said already that they are doing wrong and are living in sin. All sexual acts outside marriage are grave sins that separate the offender from God and put him or her on the path to hell. Christ condemns cohabitation as much as he condemns divorce.
Francis Borg
Sep 3rd 2010, 22:06
Based on Mgr. Gouders views and your own, there must be an awful lot of catholic people living in sin in the UK, USA, and everywhere else where divorce is lawful. I cannot speak from experience, thank goodness, been married all of 37 years but I also understand that for some people marriage has been a total failure whether it is through one party being unfaitful, violence or any other justifieable reason. The only problem with laws on divorce is that they tend to become an easy instrument for less serious reasons for separation. This is where legislation when it comes should make the financial penalties for both parties play a big part in the proceedings such that it might concentrate the minds into more conciliatory discussions between the parties. In the end though, if a marriage has failed completely divorce is the only way out.
Re co-habitants; so according to you, it is ok for non Catholics to cohabit and they will be free from eternal damnation but those born Catholics that do co-habit are of course condemmed or should a notice be sent to all non catholics or should we send a notice to non believers.
George Calleja
Sep 3rd 2010, 23:58
@ Joe Zammit::
You obviously seem very well versed in matters of the Cathechism, but it's about time you got down off the pulpit, and get a bit of a life. Stop Pontificating... unless of course you are His Holiness' official spokesman under cover.
Karl Consiglio
Sep 3rd 2010, 14:41
But when two get married via the state, not the church, then it is not a religious vow towards some God, its just an office contract.
anna muscat
Sep 3rd 2010, 13:26
Stating first that I am in favour of divorce (and a divorcee), I would like to point out that when a catholic priest is released from his vows, the result is much less devastating and, most important of all, has no repurcussions on the lives of other people involved. The truth is that a law on abortion and divorce should be considered as a lesser evil - they are both here and necessitate legislation. This does not mean catholics will be obliged to divorce or practice abortions - every citizen ( catholic or not ) will choose whether to avail oneself of the law or not.
Joseph Micallef
Sep 3rd 2010, 15:35
OK so when a priest is released from his vows it "....has no repurcussions on the lives of other people involved" BUT then you go ahead and ask for the legislation of abortions! Don't you see a contradiction anywhere MS. Muscat? Secondly, stop bundling Divorce and Abortion together as if one does not go with the other - you are doing a great disservice to those who wish to have divorce law introduced but, most of whom, do not agree with abortion. The anti-divorce clan keep harping on this and you give them reason to with your irresponsible words!
Chris Reiff
Sep 3rd 2010, 12:26
And their bond is a bond with God as well. If we should not destroy what God created, neither should priests.
C Cini
Sep 3rd 2010, 12:19
You are mistaken to say that priests are released from their vows. The sacrament of Holy Orders is for ever and does not depend upon the exercise his priestly ministry or not. In the case of marriage is different, it involves the other person and not only God.
victor pulis
Sep 3rd 2010, 14:25
'The sacrament of Holy Orders is for ever and does not depend upon the exercise his priestly ministry or not.'
Can you elaborate on that please? What's the point of remaining a priest if one cannot administer the sacraments? It's just another invention of the catholic church to accomodate its own. it is written that anyone putting his hand to the plough having looked back is not worthy of the kingdom of God.
Joseph Micallef
Sep 3rd 2010, 22:23
@ Victor Pulis - exactly my thoughts. You nailed it! Same with annullments - its just an excuse for Church sanctioned divorce - nothing more nothing less - the reasons given for annullments are ridiculous and to say that the marriage never existed between a couple who have offsprings is simply incredible!
C Cini
Sep 4th 2010, 00:11
Holy Orders is a sacrament and like all other sacraments it is a seal for all your life. It has been always like that and not invented as you are saying. You need to know what sacrament is. Therefore it is not a question of having a role in the church or a status but having the seal which God will make upon us since sacraments are a special grace from God. I suggest to read the catechisim of the Catholic Church and then make your comments. Not the otherway round.
maryanne thake
Sep 3rd 2010, 11:38
Tim, you are mistaken. Priests do NOT go back on their word- they are priests for LIFE, it is only the administration of the Sacraments which is halted. Holy Orders is a Sacrament and, like ALL other Sacraments, is a "contract" between man and God and God NEVER goes back on His Word. Just as in Baptism, we are baptised Catholic for eternity....(we may, of course, renounce our Faith), but we still remain Baptised , so it is with all Sacraments, we are Priests for life, married for life, baptised for life etc. Yes, in some cases, the church DOES dissolve marriages, but that is after careful consideration and realising that the SACRAMENT was NEVER there. And, yes, it IS within the power of the church to do so. Sacraments are administered by the appointed and anointed Ministers of God to carry out His Holy Will and administer The Sacraments and also acknowledge when the Sacrament was null as in the case of annulments. As a last point, the ONLY vows priests get "released" from are the vows of chastity, obedience and poverty.... NEVER from being an ordained priest... they are priests FOR LIFE!
Joseph MELI
Sep 10th 2010, 22:20
Maryanne Thake: You really explained it 100% to the point just as you mentioned it. Good to note that a priest is to teach the Faithful what they must do to be saved. It was no coincidence that in Christ's last message to the apostles He told them to make disciples of all nations.
This is done by teaching them "to observe all the commandments that God gave us through Moses." Note that the heart of the Gospel teaching is the obligation to keep the commandments taught by our Savior Jesus Christ. In fact, He is Savior to the saved only if they observe the moral precepts God commanded to be obeyed by all.
Faith is not something you merely believe in; faith is something you do follow and observe. Unfortunate many do not observe these at all and want to make their own laws to suit their lives. These precepts include some very difficult commandments: like monogamy in marriage-difficult in certain countries that have now reached such stages. [Continued]
Joseph MELI
Sep 10th 2010, 22:33
Maryanne Thake: Continuation No;;2::: Some of the commandments such as those about chastity of the eyes; patience under duress; love of one's enemies; and loving others even as Christ who is God has been loving us; forgiving injuries; obedience to those who in God's name have authority over us; poverty in spirit; humility of heart; peaceableness and kindness; feeding the hungry; clothing the naked; and treating the least of those who enter our lives as we would Christ Himself, are difficult to....keep or observe.
If we ignore these things, then we loose trek or his....footsteps. Yes, many of our families do not observe the commandments that God gave us through Moses to be observed by us, and it is also the duty of our priests to evangelize where...ever they are, so is that of the lay persons too. One can use the media to evangelize the word of God.
By...using...other methods such as visiting public places and mix with the people so as to spread the word of God is important. But we all have the duty or duties to follow what God wanted us to do if we want to follow his foot steps.
P. Vincenti
Sep 3rd 2010, 11:37
Is the author of this letter the same Tim Ripard who also commented as follows?
Rachel Agius. Excellent letter. Indeed 'pro-choice' should not be confused with 'pro-abortion' as the holier-than-thou brigade do on the 21st September 2009 on the TOM online comments?
He wrote it here http://f1plus.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20090921/letters/the-difference-between-pro-choice-and-pro-abortion
Are people from the pro-divorce movement working for pro-choice for abortion rights also?
Kenneth Cassar
Sep 3rd 2010, 13:02
"Are people from the pro-divorce movement working for pro-choice for abortion rights also?"
Most probably you will find "pro-divorce" people who are "pro-choice" for abortion, just as you will find both Christians who are for capital punishment (murder) and Christians who aren't.
So, what's your point exactly, apart from trying to discredit those who favour the divorce option with your predictable deceiptful tactics.
Franco Farrugia
Sep 3rd 2010, 13:03
I have often told you and I will tell you again: you harm the Church more than you think! You have 'abortion' on your mind and you are besotted with it. You need a holiday.
Gerry Cowie
Sep 4th 2010, 01:11
@Franco Farrugia - please explain yourself as to who and how somebody is harming the church?
Why put abortion into inverted commas? It is not an invention! And if more people were "besotted" about the subject of abortion then more innocent children would be born into this world rather than be killed before they have the chance to be born.
Whether or not there is a link between the abortion and divorce, people have every right to defend human life. Indeed it is the duty of everybody to protect his own kind!
Joe Zammit
Sep 3rd 2010, 09:53
Tim, priests can be released from their vows, and they can get married as well. But once they are married, they cannot resort to divorce. They are married for life.
This continues to prove that divorce is evil condemned by Christ. In 2000 years the Catholic Church, as the only one Church of Christ, has never resorted to divorce. The Pauline Privilege, the Petrine Privilege, etc, are not divorces. Divorce is the dissolution of a validly contracted marriage by a human person. When this is done by God, it is no divorce at all.
Kenneth Cassar
Sep 3rd 2010, 12:58
How would you know that a marriage is "done by god"? Do you hear voices in your head?
patrick zammit
Sep 3rd 2010, 13:34
"divorce is evil condemned by Christ"
According to the bible, divorce is permissible in cases of infidelity/fornication of the wife. Matt 5.32
For meaning of fornication see -
http://oxforddictionaries.com/view/entry/m_en_gb0982160#m_en_gb0982160
It is also permissible when one of the spouses is an unbeliever. 1 Kor 7.15
It is also permissible to divorce a wife if you do not like her. Deuteronomy 24:1-4
If a husband finds that his new bride is not virgin, he can murder her and thus be free to marry again. Deuteronomy 22:20
victor pulis
Sep 3rd 2010, 14:37
This proves nothing but that the church wants tha cake and eat it too.
@ Marianne Thake
priests are only released from their vows of chastity, poverty and obedience. How convenient is that?! The scary thing is that you probably wrote it with a straight face too.
God never goes back on his word. Who said otherwise? it's the priest who leaves the priesthood who goes back on his word.
It is within the power of the church to annull marriages and release priests from their VOWS. Of course it has. After all those laws were written by the church. Where is annullment mentioned in the gospel? Annullment was invented by the church to accomodate the rich and wealthy andas a loophole.
They are priests for life. According to JZ they are priests even if they end up in hell!!
victor pulis
Sep 3rd 2010, 14:41
How would you know that a marriage is "done by god"? Do you hear voices in your head?
Kenneth perhaps the same way a new pope is elected after the cardinals are enlightened by the holy spirit!
reading the history of certain popes one comes to the conclusion that the holy spirit must have been on vacation when they were elected!
Kenneth Cassar
Sep 3rd 2010, 09:26
Alternatively, you could pose Anton Gouder this question: Would you say that someone who promised to kill someone else is morally bound to go ahead with the murder?
Yes, there are several instances where the moral thing to do is to break a promise.
C Cini
Sep 3rd 2010, 13:24
What a nonsense argurment ! You want to argue by comparing murder with marriage or holy orders? Kemm irridu naqghu fil-baxx. Ma baqghalkomx aktar x tghidu hlief li taqghu fil-baxx.