Alfred Cachia, Sta Luċija
Teaching through parish billboard
I was astonished to read in the front-page story titled Curia Had No Say In The Anti-Divorce Billboard (July 20) that, when contacted, a Curia spokesman told The Times that "This was a parish initiative. The Curia was not asked for its opinion so the responsibility falls totally on the parish."
May I ask the Curia spokesman what he meant by responsibility? Is it the responsibility of reminding churchgoers that God does not want divorce or an inference of Żebbuġ parish committing, in the eyes of the spokesman, a strategic blunder in the divorce debate?
Hats off to Żebbuġ parish's initiative which is made within the context of article 2(2) of the Constitution of Malta which provides that "The authorities of the Roman Catholic Apostolic Church have the duty and the right to teach which principles are right and which are wrong".
Which is the next parish?
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Joe Zammit
Aug 4th 2010, 21:41
The Catholic Church is duty bound to teach the people of Malta and Gozo what Christ has taught her. Christ spoke clearly about divorce. Divorce is evil and we must never resort to divorce. The Catholic Church prohibits divorce because divorce is a grave sin against God.
Besides, the Catholic Church has the right to use all moral means to spread her teaching among us. Billboards are no exception. Teaching the Word of God can take diverse forms from the internet to newspapers, from television to the public square.
Christ commanded his Catholic Church to go and preach to all nations by word and example, for the salvation of souls. The Church will continue to echo far and wide Christ teaching and will continue to call a spade a spade.
victor pulis
Jul 29th 2010, 09:22
@ Dr. Francis Saliba
"Old Testament holy men described God in their different human terms but God did not change so as to adapt to that human description."
So much for the bible being the word of God. it turns out it's the word of man. end of comments. Thank you.
Dr Francis Saliba
Jul 29th 2010, 15:25
Eureka! Thanks be to God that the penny has finally dropped. The Old Testament is not to be interpreted as a strict literal interpretation but must be studied conscientiously within the context of human knowledge and literary forms of that time.
victor pulis
Jul 26th 2010, 22:48
We are not talking about fallible man here. We are talking about Jesus who preached a different 'perception' of god.
Dr Francis Saliba
Jul 27th 2010, 17:46
@VictorPulis
The "difference" is not between what Christ said on one occasion and what Christ said on another occasion. It is between his authoritative version and that held by the Israelites who did not even recognize Christ as the Messiah, the Holy One sent by God. God never changed neither did Christ's version of Him.
victor pulis
Jul 28th 2010, 14:49
I didn't say Jesus was inconsistent don't twist my words please Jesus was consistent in his message but the God he preached was one of mercy and forgiveness unlike the God preached by Moses and the prophets who was only interested in his 'chosen' people. You say that the Jews did not recognise Jesus as the Messiah. Does that mean tht God's plan was thwarted? Jesus never maent to set up a new religion. He was a devout Jew whose mission was to renew and revitlize the jewish religion. A few years after his death his message was twisted and bent by his followers. The first gospel was written about 70 years after Jesus' death. Can you imagine writing the story of WWII from memory or from what you had heard from others without the aid of films, newspapers, recordings and books? The destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans forced the first christians to shift their base to Rome where they found themselves surrounded by pagans. Their only chance to make any headway was to dilute their beliefs with those of the Romans we can still see the results to this day.
Dr Francis Saliba
Jul 28th 2010, 21:47
@VictorPulis.
I am not twisting your words – you are pretending not to understand clear answers.
No! God’s plan was not thwarted and no human agency could ever thwart it. I did not say anything that could justify your query.
I repeat for the last time, God has always been the same God and his true qualities are those described by Christ. Old Testament holy men described God in their different human terms but God did not change so as to adapt to that human description. He had always been the same God as described by Christ during his Messianic mission. He will also remain that same God irrespective of any later descriptions of him given by anybody else especially by his detractors.
Your version of the early years of Christianity is irrelevant and I will not be drawn into discussing it with you until I am satisfied with your ability to understand my comments and until you make a new resolution not to quibble.
Dr Francis Saliba
Jul 26th 2010, 17:57
@Victor Pulis
No, Sir. I am not saying that "that god changes with time". What changes is fallible man's perception of what God really is - God himself does not change.
victor pulis
Jul 26th 2010, 08:48
@ Joe Zammit
Why are the devil and his followers so afraid of the Catholic Church?
asks Joe presumably meaning those who are in favour of divorce.
It takes a lot more than that to be the follower of the devil Joe. it takes torture and massacre of innocents, It takes molesting minors, it takes false witness, it takes fanaticism and intollerance. it takes lack of compassion, It takes judging and condemnation of those of a different opinion. Think about it Joe. The antichrist comes in disguise and in deception. Many prophets will come in Jesus' name be not decieved.
Joe Zammit
Aug 4th 2010, 21:40
Victor, there is no midway. Either with God or with the devil. If one is in grave sin, one is with the devil, so much so that if one dies without having repented, one goes to hell. We can live always in God's grace by his all-powerful help. Living one with God gives you the power on your will to always avoid evil and do God's will, notwithstanding all the difficulties you might encounter.
Dr Francis Saliba
Jul 25th 2010, 16:16
@MarioMicallef
Your biased and angry emotive outburst robs your comment of any value.
An anxious Catholic who opts to allocate some of his wealth to the Church on his deathbed is not being robbed of anything - except in the eyes of covetous heirs who would prefer that the wealth be passed on to them instead.
Burying a lapsed Catholic, who sets himself publicly against the Church, in an unconsecrated part of the cemetery is not burying him in a Mizbla – except for political propaganda purposes.
When the Church Response Team advises the victims of child sex abuse that they have the right to report to the police that is not “hiding” the errant priest.
The Church never made secret pacts with the Nazis to support their criminal behaviour. It put its diplomatic service at the service of refugees escaping from their persecution.
I know of a Christian God who preached love of God and neighbour. Could you please introduce me to your God who promised Happiness on earth?
victor pulis
Jul 26th 2010, 08:38
Is the christian god the same one who orderd genocide (no love of neighbours back then), stoning of aduterers, burning of witches, segregating of lepers in the old testament?
Dr Francis Saliba
Jul 26th 2010, 10:59
@VictorPulis
As the name implies, the Christian God is the one described by Christ. Christ did not describe his Father as "one who orderd genocide (no love of neighbours back then), stoning of aduterers, burning of witches, segregating of lepers". That is your false attribution. If you are genuinely interested to know Christ's attitude to an adulterous woman please read John Chapters 7 and 8. If you want a genuine account of Christ's attitude to lepers there are innumerable episodes in all four gospels of his consistently merciful interventions on their behalf. If you really want to know the Christian Church's attitude towards lepers please read up the accounts of the numerous leprosaria run by Christians, at great risks to themselves, throughout the world.
victor pulis
Jul 26th 2010, 13:25
That is exactly my point Dr.Saliba and I'm sure you understood my question. Is the god of the old testament the same one Jesus preached? There. is that more clear to you?
Dr Francis Saliba
Jul 26th 2010, 15:56
@VictorPulis
Nothing would be clearer to you also and you would not need to ask loaded questions if, like any good Christian you update your version of "God" to the one preached by Christ. That is what I did and that is why my mind is very clear about the true nature of God. I wish the same for you.
victor pulis
Jul 26th 2010, 16:28
Are you saying that god changes with time? From a vengeful entity to a loving one? We're talking about god the creator of the universe aren't we?
Dr Francis Saliba
Jul 25th 2010, 09:13
Pussy-footing by "a Curia spokesman " stating that "this was a parish initiative" is indefensible. The statement is wide open to the misinterpretation that the Curia disagreed with a parish billboard carrying the Catholic message about divorce. As should have been foreseen, this did actually happen. This deception could have been prevented, should have been prevented and should have been categorically corrected by those responsible.
Dr Francis Saliba
Jul 25th 2010, 09:00
Separation of Church from State does not mean suppression of the right and duty of the Church to teach what is right and what is wrong at the behest of some antireligious elements because of their fear that message will get through to potential electors.
Evidently many Maltese Catholics hold the teachings of the Church through its ministers in high respect. It this very appreciation of the value of Christ's message that so infuriates the atheist, anti-Catholic and secular element to such a degree that they feel the need to distort and vilify that teaching mission it as an imposition when that is not so.
Joe Xuereb
Jul 24th 2010, 22:04
@JoeZammit. quoting yourself: 'christ's teaching is unalterable but the application HAS TO BE SUITABLE TO THE TIMES'. Famous last words?
The ungodly London Bus campaign. The ungodly cannot prove there is no good. But then the godly cannot prove that there is. So it's a stalemate. The verdict is out. It is interesting that they who call themselves atheists live LIKE THERE IS NO GOD. In much the same way that many believers live like THERE IS A GOD. These often quote Paschal's Wager but that's the reasoning of an astute child but a child nevertheless. The current campaign in London is the poster stating 'Some people are gay'. This is a small poster INSIDE the buses as opposed to the other campaign splashed all over the OUTSIDE of the bus. London has many problems but the city breathes still. And we don't have niches on every street corner. Even the fourth empty plinth on Trafalgar Square often raises the issue of what to put there (there's even been a perspex christ and other naff stuff). Malta would have no trouble filling the plinth, what with all those saints-in-waiting.
Joe Zammit
Jul 24th 2010, 21:32
It is important to note that the Catholic Church in Malta and Gozo has always cherished its right to speak out on the moral issues confronting our nation. The Church has understood its responsibility in a democratic society to do her best to form properly the consciences of her members.
In continuity with the long history of her efforts to assist Catholics with the proper formation of their consciences, our Bishops will continue to enlighten us on the infallible teaching of the Catholic Church and on how we must live it in our private and public life.
The doctrine will remain always the same because the Church cannot change anything she has received from Christ but the application of this doctrine has to be clear, direct and suitable to the times.
All of us are invited by the Catholic Church to spread her salvific teaching, once we do it in union with and obedience to our Bishops and for the glory of God.
Catholic action is the mission of every Catholic!
victor pulis
Jul 24th 2010, 21:58
Haven't we read this exact same comment before?
The church has always been free to preach its message as is her right and nobody ever tried to stop her. But the same can't be said for the church where the freedom of others is concerned. Divorce is not compulsory and those who oppose it are free not to use it. On the other hand those who want it should have the right to it. This is where the bone of contention lies. No one is forcing the church to accept divorce. It's the church who is trying to impose its teachings on others.
Joseph Micallef
Jul 24th 2010, 22:52
SO GO TELL THAT TO CATHOLICS! Obviously those in favour divorce are not thinking on those lines and those who would opt to divorce are not considering themselves as practicing Catholics. So why worry? Nobody is asking the Catholic Church to adopt or endorse divorce!
Mario Muscat
Jul 25th 2010, 09:40
Catholic action is the mission of every Catholic!
Does that include robbing people of their wealth on their death beds?
Does that include burying people at the Mizbla?
Does that include hiding priest who sexually abused young children?
Does that include secret pacts with the Nazis?
And it goes on and on , the church you believe in is made of stone and run by people just like you and me.
The God I believe in is the one that preached Love , Tolerance, Respect and Happiness.
JOSEPH ZAMMIT
Jul 24th 2010, 20:14
Joe Zammit's contributions amount to only one thing, that is: The Fundamentalist Attack on Separation of Church & State which is article 2(2) of our constitution. If one follows carefully his comments one must come to this conclusion. Let us all be aware and use our reasoning powers over blind faith.
Joseph Calleja
Jul 24th 2010, 17:28
Mr Joe Zammit I don't think all these people are commenting because they are against the Catholic Church. I think they are commenting negatively, me included, is because of your attitude that you think you are right and everybody else is wrong. Joe this is the year 2010 and you are still living in the sixties, with sixties ideas. Even the church changed with the times but you refuse to do so. Joe you are entitled to your opinion but don't try to force it on the rest of us. If you don't believe in divorce, habitation, condoms sex etc that's fine but stay out of other peoples business and believes. Nobody is forcing you to get a divorce or use condoms or cohabit. And shame on you for condemning all other churches because they agree with divorce. Believe it or not we all have one and the same God and one day this same God will make judgement on us all. Now I'm trying to convert you. How pathetic? By the way Joe, the Curia did not get involved because they saw a rat and they stayed out of it, does that tell you anything about the billboard?
Charles Sammut
Jul 24th 2010, 17:13
The overwhelming interference of the Catholic Church in everyday life is subtly demonstrated by the very title give to this letter. "Teaching"? It's more like imposing.
You teach something which is good. But the Church has so totally hijacked goodness that most people gullibly take it for granted that whetever the Church says is good and true. Ask Galileo, Copernicus, Darwin and all the other great men who had the temerity to question the Catholic Church's absurdities.
Hands off our private lives.
Ronald Zammit
Jul 24th 2010, 14:20
@ Joe Zammit must thing that he is more catholic than the Pope and strongly BUT very wrongly thinks that the Roman Catholic Church(to which I am a member) is the only church recognized by God! God is the creator of ALL HUMAN BEINGS whom he loves equally whether Roman Catholic or not. Whether against or in favour of Divorse and amny many other issues. God gave us all the liberty and the ability to use our own minds irrispective of what religion we beleive in. It is up to the individual to accept or refuse what is wrong or right and than suffer or enjoy the conseguences. So your Holyness Joe Zammit, the more you try to inflict us with your beleives, the more you are being taken with a punch of salt. Beleive in what you like....it's your privilige and right but for God's sake stop insulting other people's inteligence and let others think and beleive their own mind!! Please Stop being a laughing stock in 2010
D. A . Agius
Jul 24th 2010, 15:44
Rightly said... so far Joe Zammit will probably be contributing more and more to the Yes to divorce campaign through his comments.
It's a representation of what's to come if a national referendum is held. Many people simply won't have the brains to divide between state and church issues, the fanatics will surely make sure that if possible even the dying vote and we'll see another chapter of Church fiddling with the running of the state!
And what's best is that they have front runners in the Parliament with past and present allegiances to quasi-fanatic organisations falling within the Church's domain...
Carnage assured... some things Only can happen In Malta!
victor pulis
Jul 24th 2010, 14:00
If victory is already guaranteed why fight at all? the devil should throw in the towel and award God a walk over. Can Goodness ever lose against evil? the answer of course is no.
Another thing. has it ever occured to you that after the last judgement God and the devil will be working in partnership? God will judge man and the devil will execute that judgement. The devil will not be destroyed but will have his own kingdom which according to your calculations will be bigger than God's as only Catholics will be saved!
Joe Zammit
Jul 24th 2010, 21:13
Victor, the battle between God and the devil is on. We fight because it's God's will to fight the devil and all evils, including divorce. Divorce is evil and whoever wants divorce wants evil. The victory is ours. I can say that 100% sure. The whole of hell can do nothing against us ... and the hell knows well what I'm saying. I can say more than this ... but to whom I'm enlightened to tell them. There can be no victory without a battle and there cannot be a battle without fighters.
victor pulis
Jul 24th 2010, 21:52
Oh! I 'm sorry I'm not enlightened enough for you to explain to me about armageddon! I'm always looking forward to your enlightened contribution to this debate. Meanwhile you chose to ignore all the points in my comment.
Karl Consiglio
Jul 24th 2010, 13:50
This lack of respect the church is showing towards non-believers is not very Christian at all.
Rudy Sollars
Jul 24th 2010, 13:07
I find it incomprehensible why the Church cannot display an advert such as: 'GOD IS AGAINST DIVORCE' especially on its premise?
In the U.K. similar Christian adverts began running on London buses in 2008. As a response, a more humanised bus campaign expanded across the democratic western world which read: 'THERE'S PROBABLY NO GOD. NOW STOP WORRYING AND ENJOY YOUR LIFE.'
What is holding us to strive for a similar Open Society that is based based on mutual tolerance and mutual respect - in substitue of dogma, taboos and privilages?
Franco Farrugia
Jul 24th 2010, 13:32
'I find it incomprehensible why the Church cannot display an advert such as: 'GOD IS AGAINST DIVORCE' especially on its premise?' Because that statement is an untruth, because that statement is oversimplistic, because that statement means to shut up all discussion, and because that statement is being made by the Church, that's why.
Chris Reiff
Jul 24th 2010, 14:06
There's a difference between stating that there probably is no God, and that God is against divorce. You could compare the probably-no-god campaign with a probably-there-is-a-god campaign, which has been held in England as well, as a reaction to the no-god campaign.
Stating that God is against divorce is simply wrong, because divorce has got nothing to do with the Church. State divorce, that is. And that's what we're discussing.
Joe Zammit
Jul 24th 2010, 13:04
There is only one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church that Christ has set up. All the other churches are not the one Church of Christ. Jesus spoke clearly: I am setting up my CHURCH not churches on you, ex-Simon, on you PETER. The other churches separated themselves from the Catholic Church. In the beginning there was only one Church led by the Pope. And the string of Popes has been on to day and will continue until the end of time.
If other churches allow divorce, they are wrong. Christ tells them: What God has united, let no man, no State, no church put asunder!
Blessed are those who are faithful to Christ and his one Catholic Church and remain so until the end of their life. The crown is only for these.
victor pulis
Jul 24th 2010, 13:52
They're going to have to enlarge hell as according to Joe about 5/6 of the world population is doomed to eternal hell fire! Jesus never meant to establish a new religion. He was a Jew and his mission was to strengthenthe Jewish religion. Within a few years of his death trouble had already started brewing among his desciples especially those supporting Peter and those in favour of Paul. in time jesus's teachings were diluted with Roman paganism. the pope took the place of the emperor with the same title of pontifex maximus, Most of the rituals used by the romans were introduced. Churches were built on the model of roman temples and even liturgical vestments were plagiarised. Latin became the church's official language. If Jesus had to come today he wouldn't recognise his own teaching and he'd have a field day with his scourge as he did in the temple two thousand years ago. And you'd be surprised who'd get the biggest flogging.
Chris Reiff
Jul 24th 2010, 14:04
Enjoy the crown, but please enjoy it alone, and leave us be.
Joseph Micallef
Jul 24th 2010, 15:15
Mr. Zammit I see that you invented a beatitude of your own which is not mentioned in the Bible - You seem to be the creator of your own religion!
Elena Nikolaeva
Jul 26th 2010, 09:48
Where do you get this stuff? It is the Catholic church that separated from the Christian church in the 11th century or so and not the other way round.
B. Cachia
Jul 26th 2010, 15:57
"What God has united, let no man, no State, no church put asunder!"
Exactly - and that obviously does not include civil marriage, which is non-existent in the eyes of the Church, and which is what people are in fact talking about here.
If you want to make your statement relevant to the actual topic being discussed, you'd have to change it to "What the State has united, let no man, no State, no church put asunder!", which is clearly total nonsense, as you too would probably agree.
Gerard Cassar
Jul 24th 2010, 12:01
Mr Joe (why Joe not Joseph) Zammit seems to want to fill the role of "oracle of God".
GiovdeMartino
Jul 24th 2010, 11:54
I am afraid that the Church Authorities are trying to please God and the devil...........U ma joghgbu lil hadd!
Karl Consiglio
Jul 24th 2010, 11:25
We already know the church is against divorce, we don't expect it to change its mind, we understand that it can't, but the divorce debate has nothing to do with the church, we are talking about the state here and not the Catholic faith, we are talking about a democracy , and in a democracy one is not following an order, one has choices.
M Vella
Jul 24th 2010, 11:46
very well said Karl agree with you 100%
Joe Zammit
Jul 24th 2010, 21:28
Karl, you are right. We are in a democracy; so the will of the majority has to be followed. We make a referendum. The Catholic Church, by right first of all given to her by her founder Christ and by the Constitution, will enlighten the Catholic population of Malta and Gozo on the evil of divorce and the INDISSOLUBILITY of marriage, and then what the majority wants, we follow. Why are the devil and his followers so afraid of the Catholic Church?
J. Falzon
Jul 25th 2010, 12:44
Too true mate
It's unjust that the minority is oppressed by the majority
Leave religion out of this, marriage is not a Catholic practice
Empires that existed centuries before Christ HAD marriage, so why is marriage being "Catholicised" here?
Franco Farrugia
Jul 24th 2010, 11:22
5. This is no battle between God and the devil. This is a battle between what the Church in Malta perceives to be its last hold on Maltese society. It is worldly pride that is pushing the Church in Malta to focus on this issue more than on other issues which, in my opinion, are even much more serious and which go against the word of God, such as xenophobia and racism that are opening up and exploding our society like a dead body in the sun! A cursory look at the comments of yesterday's two main news items dealing with immigrants will make readers understand what I have in mind and yet, no Catholic militant of the likes of Joe Zammit contribute in that sphere. The Church in Malta is much too focused on divorce, same-sex partnerships and issues that have to do with sex. In other words, the Church in Malta, and its leaders, are not loyally transmitting the true will of God!
Franco Farrugia
Jul 24th 2010, 11:18
1. For those who believe and who want to be led by the RCChurch in Malta, it is worth knowing that it is an untruth that God does not want divorce. It is a very oversimplistic assertion.
2. The Archpriest was wrong to put on that slogan, for the simple reason that he is trying to shut up all discussion about the subject, rather than be participant to it. Is this the Biblical formation this priest received at the Seminary?
3. There was nothing pedagogical in putting this billboard - it was done, purely to spite JPO who was attending Mass at a nearby bandclub.
4. The Curia or some representative was informed about the billboard, but decided to have nothing to do with it. Believers should know that there is a kind of hierarchy within the pastoral arm of the Church: Parish Priests/ Regional co-ordinator/ Curia Pastoral Representative, Pro-Vicar General, etc...
....
rgalea
Jul 24th 2010, 11:13
Wonder why we don't see billboards reminding us that using contraceptives is a one way ticket to damnation?
Divorce is still hypothetical while contraceptive use is widespread...perhaps the church has given up on that one?
Joe Zammit
Jul 24th 2010, 10:45
The letter writer is right in defending the Zebbug parish in its initiative on the question of divorce. On the other hand the curia is in no way involved in every step taken by each parish for the formation and information of their parishioners.
Each parish priest is responsible for his own parish and the curia is responsible for the diocese but does not interfere in the pastoral work carried out by each parish priest. After all, the curia did not order the Zebbug parish priest to remove the bill board.
Join in the battle between God and the devil! Fight the good fight! The victory is ours, it's already guaranteed!
rgalea
Jul 24th 2010, 11:19
"The victory is ours, it's already guaranteed!"........do you have the gift of precognition?
Actually this "battle" has already been lost in 99% of the countries making up our planet...........seems the odds are against your fundamentalist , intolerant and theocratic vision of the world.
Joe Zammit
Jul 24th 2010, 13:00
Mr Galea, how wrong you are! For God there are no countries; there are people who are good or bad, who love him or are against him. There is no mid-way. The victory is for those who side with God and his one Catholic Church. This victory is already guaranteed!
rgalea
Jul 24th 2010, 13:41
so, do you or don't you have the gift of precognition?
As for God not interested in countries but people......sure.....perhaps you prefer 99% of the world population?
Chris Reiff
Jul 24th 2010, 14:02
Well, the Invisible Pink Unicorn wants divorce, so its and its followers fight is guaranteed to be victorious!!!
Joe Zammit
Jul 24th 2010, 21:21
Mr Galea, the gifts that God, in his providence and mercy, has given me, are lively present in me and I use them according to God's sweet guidance in faithful obedience to his one holy Catholic Church. I know what I'm saying: the victory is God's over the devil, the victory is for those who remain faithful to God and his Catholic Church until the end.