Wilfred L. Camilleri, Ontario, Canada
A secular society: Not for the Maltese
The recent letter by William P. Flynn of Victoria, Australia begs a rebuttal. He makes the argument that Malta should amend its Constitution to separate Church and state. He wants to promote secularism in Malta. Let's look at the arguments used by Mr Flynn to propose this amendment to Malta's Constitution.
Without any basis in fact, Mr Flynn claims that "the vast majority of Maltese are not practising Catholics, as evidenced by 365 virtually empty churches". Well I don't know where Mr Flynn got his information from. He obviously is not making this statement based on his personal observations since he lives in Australia. If Mr Flynn wants to make a valid and believable point, he needs to base his stated "facts" on real facts. Mr Flynn did not provide any proof of his claim and therefore his claim is totally invalid.
He also claims that somehow both political parties were intimidated by the Curia to toe the Church's line when the Constitution was drafted. Again, Mr Flynn has not provided any semblance of proof that this happened, apart from his usual rhetoric.
He next attacks the Church by bringing up the scandal of a very small number of priests who had abused children; the Church's teachings against divorce; and finally the Church's campaign against abortion. Mr Flynn may not believe that abortion is the murder of an unborn child or that divorce is against the teachings of Jesus Christ, but many Maltese people do. We have seen many such attacks by Mr Flynn on this paper so we are all aware of his attacks against the Church.
He also quotes the first amendment of the US Constitution, which reads "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion". We all know that the US has separation of Church and state, but let us look at the US, which is a very secular state as Mr Flynn knows.
• The US has one of the highest crime rates in the world. It ranks at 24 for murders per capita.
• The US has a very high capital punishment rate. Since capital punishment was reinstated in 1977, 432 people have been executed in the US.
• The US has one of the highest abortion rates in the world. Since abortion was legalised in 1973, over 49 million babies have been aborted.
• The US has a high rate of drug addiction. A 2007 report found drug overdose deaths are now the second leading cause of death in America and that 19.7 million Americans used drugs in a one-month period.
• The US has the highest divorce rate in the world. According to statistics provide by www.divorcerate.org, "50 per cent of all marriages in America end in divorce". This translates into children being brought up in broken families and many in single-parent families.
Even though the US is one of the richest countries in the world, millions of Americans are living in poverty. This in a nation that recently bailed out greedy bankers to the tune of over a trillion dollars while the senior executive members of the same banks gave themselves multi-million dollar bonuses.
Many American families go bankrupt when they are faced with huge health care bills because millions of Americans cannot afford health care coverage.
I could go on and on but I believe that the above clearly shows the state of affairs in the US.
Many Americans pride themselves in the separation of Church and state. This in a nation that has "In God We Trust" printed on its money and invokes the name of God in their national anthem. This is not to say that there aren't millions of Americans who trust in God, but there are many who don't. The US is a great country but the increasing secularism has led to this sorry state of affairs.
This is what Mr Flynn wants the Maltese people to emulate and to fashion their Constitution after.
Well Mr Flynn, thank you but no thank you.
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Joe Zammit
Jul 12th 2010, 22:10
Thank God, in his providence God has sent us St Paul 2000 years ago to convert us into the Christian Catholic Faith. We have been Catholics to date and by God's all-powerful grace, we shall remain Catholic until the end of time.
Persecutions, silly comments, blah, blah, blah, false arguments, etc, will evaporate in the air and our Catholic Faith will continue to strengthen from time to time. We want a secularist society but we don't want secularism!
For the vast majority of Maltese and Gozitans, Christ and his one Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church will remain first and foremost!
Joe Xuereb
Jul 3rd 2010, 23:23
2) Allow me an anecdote. I have a 'friend' who's been in UK for half a century. Listing his evil, evil ways would have me here for hours. I was in a car with him a few days ago. He stopped at the lights and crossed over to a largish crucifix in front of a church on the corner. He kissed the tips of his fingers and touched the feet of the effigy. He came back and I said, 'what was that all about?'. He said, the cross is a symbol of what he did for us. And of course this guy goes to church. So much for church-goers. Someone, somewhere on these pages a few days ago talking about 'practising hypocrites' (as opposed to the usual catholics). How very apt! He is a raging driver, spewing so much venom. I feel my life is at risk in his car. Was the ritualistic kissing heart-felt? Was it to impress? I was neither surprised and even less impressed. I am way past my impressionable age. Yet some persist. Interesting that! Something to do with investment if I remember correctly.
Joe Xuereb
Jul 3rd 2010, 23:18
1) @ Franco Farrugia. Good point. It is indeed fascinating how a Maltese can live abroad and retain this thing called faith. In my case, one might say my faith was weak. No. One either has faith or one has not. What was weak-ish was my ritualistic prostration. If to some strong faith is being a blind yes-man, good luck to them.
continue
Joe Zammit
Jun 26th 2010, 21:31
Church attendance to weekly Mass is 72% because there are those who do not go regularly. Parish priests know exactly also those who do not go to Mass every week.
Besides, the others who do not attend are still Catholic. They still baptize their children in the Catholic Faith. They still send their children to learn their Catholic Faith at school and Church societies. They still prepare them to receive the Sacraments of Confession and Holy Eucharist. They get married in the Catholic Church. When they die they are taken to a Catholic church and after Masses are offered for them in Catholic churches.
On Trinity Sunday 96% of Maltese and Gozitan children of their peer group have made their First Holy Communion. This augurs very well for the future of the Catholic Church on our Catholic islands until the end of time.
Joseph Vella
Jun 25th 2010, 17:12
No matter which way one interprets statistics, attendance at Catholic churches in Malta is in a steep and continuing decline. On this point William Flynn is right on target, even as he stretched his argument to the limit, as a way to emphasize the steady encroachment of secularization in Europe’s last bastion of Catholicism, while Wilfred Camilleri went on to inhale smoke in lala land, in his hollow defense of the incestuous marriage between state and church, embedded in stealth fashion within Malta’s constitution. Truth is the average person in Malta is not well informed on how Article 2 came into being, with little or no public scrutiny. Whatever small credibility Wilfred Camilleri managed to muster amongst people of faith was further diminished by his vitriolic attack on the United States. His take on America’s alleged moral decline, its inordinate high rate of criminality, is belied by his abysmal ignorance of a western nation steeped in the observance of religion. Its churches of many denominations, in sharp contrast to Malta’s empting pews are well attended, if indeed that fact may be regarded as a measure of good citizenship, an example of virtue by those who share Wilfred Camilleri’s closed mindset.
Christopher Grech
Jun 24th 2010, 11:55
@ CARMEL SERRACINO INGLOTT
You say that 45% represents those that do not go, and for any reason, being sick or at work as other reasons.
What about if the 55% are coerced to go, due to public pressure, as I am sure that some or most go, because they "have to"?
I appeal to all people that believe in the Bible to obey God's Commandments.
My letter should be an eye-opener:
http://100777.com/node/1931
Morana Axisa
Jun 24th 2010, 08:19
Once again, all of this is beside the point. Individuals believe what they believe - that is their right. No one should be like BIG BROTHER getting into someone else's head and programming what they should or should not think and believe. I am happy to say, that unlike many who replied to this article, I not only know what I believe, but am no out to 'redeem' or 'convert' others to my same belief. NO i do not think that 'MY WAY IS THE ONLY WAY AND THEREFORE ANY WHO DO NOT BELIEVE AS I DO ARE IN THE WRONG' - I am not so hypocritical and respect others. Be it as it may - the point here was whether in Malta the state should be seperate from the church (by which is obviously meant - the Catholic church, thereby discriminating against other religions... and YES there are Maltese people with other creeds! Surprise Surprise!). I really don't think replying to one article is going to make much difference. There are too many laws which say one thing in 'secular jargon' and become totally different when seen from a Catholic perspective.THAT is why there must be a referendum.
Peter Dingli
Jun 23rd 2010, 21:13
My non belief is your problem!
Gerry Cowie
Jun 23rd 2010, 19:47
Well said, Mr Wilfred L. Camilleri!
Malta does not want to become a secular society just because a few people shout about it from outside of Malta.
A poll was recently carried out in respect of the constitution and that was pulled from the internet and was incapable of giving a fair result.
The only people who can make change in Malta are those with a right to vote.
I think Malta is safe from outside interference in that respect!
It is fair to say that certain persons detest the Catholic church and all it stands for. They say so loud and clear, so they should accept that others do not think as they do.
Luckily Malta does not agree overall.
MBorg
Jun 23rd 2010, 17:57
@ Paul Smith @ Darren Galea " Prove your God and I'll prove the tooth fairy " " I don't like believing things purely on faith, ever I need evidence to back up claims, extraordinary claims need extraordinary evedence." What choice of words to make fun of God and the Catholic faith . May be you do not belive that there is a God , but do you credit faries for the miracle of life and for creating the world.? Some faires these.
Darren Galea
Jun 23rd 2010, 18:34
I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but nothing which you mentioned is a "miracle" as valid rational, natural, scientific explanations exist. Simply saying "it's a miracle" is not only useless, it slows down progress. It's interesting that note that fairies and unicorns have as much evidence going for them as god. Any god.
Wilfred L. Camilleri
Jun 23rd 2010, 19:02
@Darren Galea There's more to life than scientific proof. So saying "it's a miracle" is not only useless but it slows down progress? Where is your scientific proof of that? And what progress are you talking about? If progress is increased immorality, increased crime, abortion, divorce and capital punishment then you can keep it. If you ask me, society has regressed not progressed.
Darren Galea
Jun 23rd 2010, 21:15
For one thing, there's the enlightenment. The abandoning of useless dogma helped society immensely.
Society has regressed? Again, are you serious? Age expectancy has doubled over the past 70 years, we've invented vaccines, chemotherapy, surgery & transplants just to name a FEW. We've come a long, long way.
It's amazing how we've built a society based on science and reason, yet people trust these two things less and less.
I've yet to see something in that shoddy old book you call the Bible interest me as much as say, Carl Sagan's writing. It is humbling and deeply gratifying to know that this universe is not being constantly supervised by a cosmic super daddy, but we are mere organic molecules who are on a lonely planet, in a lonely solar system, in a very lonely galaxy. We are, in a way, a way for atoms to know themselves. We share a common ancestor with every living organism on the face of this planet.
How that does not humble anyone, and make the notion of a deity that has an interest in us not seem preposterous, is beyond me.
Good day.
Karl Farrugia
Jun 23rd 2010, 17:05
These kind of letters are exactly the reason why I'm an atheist.
I would like to remind Mr. Camilleri that Poland and Mexico are 2 of the most fervently Catholic countries in the world. They place at 20 and 6 respectively in the list of highest murder rate per capita.
Religious status does not cause crime, divorce or abortions. Just because 2 facts co-exist does not mean that they are linked. For example, the rise in temperature over the past few decades is not caused by the decrease in pirates.
However, if he could take his very valid point when addressing Mr. Flynn to provide proof for his claims, and does so himself to prove the correlation between these 2 phenomena, I would be very happy indeed.
Regarding Church attendance, Mr. Flynn has failed to provide the facts, so I'll do so myself. Quoting Wikipedia:
As at 2005, the rate of regular mass attendance was estimated at 52.6 percent (51 percent for Malta Island, 72.7 percent for Gozo), compared to 63.4 percent in 1995 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Malta#Current_status_and_law)
This is around 1% decline annually.
Wilfred L Camilleri
Jun 23rd 2010, 18:18
God does not have to prove anything to you or to anyone else for that matter. You either believe or you don't.
Wilfred L Camilleri
Jun 23rd 2010, 18:25
You're an atheist because you don't believe not because of what people like me write. You say that religious status does not cause crime, divorce or abortions. What causes crime, divorce and abortions is a lack of belief in God's commandments, so yes, religious status does in fact cause crime, divorce, and abortions whether you choose to believe it or not! So there was around a 1% decline annually . That doesn't prove Mr. Flynn's statement that there are 365 virtually empty churches. Church attendance declines and rises over time. It's a fact of life.
Karl Farrugia
Jun 23rd 2010, 18:43
I'm an Atheist, and I believe that one should not kill, and one should not steal. These laws are also valid in Muslim, Buddhist, and Hindu countries, and they don't really care about what some man scraped on 2 pieces of stone on a mountain claiming they were god-given. It's called common-sense. May I remind you that Moses himself was given the case after killing a man, proving that "Thou Shall not kill" was already a known "sin" in Ancient Egypt. Also note that in the Egyptian Book of the Dead, some of the phrases a deceased soul has to say in front of Osiris in his journey to the realm of the dead are: I have committed no evil upon men. I have not oppressed the members of my family. I have not killed. I have not misread the scales to cheat buyers. Strike a note? Clearly, humanity was not waiting for your god to learn that killing someone, or stealing, is something you do NOT do. If you, on the other hand, are so craving to kill and steal that you need the "divine word" to calm you down.
Wilfred L. Camilleri
Jun 23rd 2010, 18:57
I'm not craving to kill or steal as you suggest. And I don't believe in God to calm myself down. Yes my God and the God of all creation is alive whether you choose to believe or not. Being an atheist is your choice ad my believing in God is my choice. When our short lives here on earth are over and we move on both you and I will have to face God, regardless of how we conducted our lives here on earth.
Emanuel Cilia Debono
Jun 23rd 2010, 16:42
mr. Smith
If you do not believe in a loving God that is your problem. However, you will not be surprised that even children find it a relief to believe in fairy tales! If you are convinced that there is no God, no after life, no hope, no purpose in life other than 'a long fool's journey to the grave' , then your vision of life and of the world is too lonesome too restricted..You may feel that you may be missing something and that you deserve much better.
It may do you good to think a bit in your free time
Paul Smith
Jun 23rd 2010, 15:33
Mr Camilleri says
Wilfred Camilleri(1 hour, 33 minutes ago)
Real ignorance is the refusal to believe in God!
Well Mr, You prove your God and i'll prove the tooth fairy
Emanuel Cilia Debono
Jun 23rd 2010, 15:31
The constitution of a State reflects the way of life of the people . Article 2 (together with other provisions) of the Constitution of the Republic of Malta protect the right to religious freedom whilst at the same time allow the Catholic Church to exercise its Mission freely and in a responsible manner. It is for the citizens themselves to decide how and when to amend the Constitutional document, if at all. I hate outsiders trying to dictate role models which are unfamiliar if not outright alien to Maltese society.
Moral standards have fallen all over the western World. The removal of religion from everyday life in most western countries has much to do with it. Malta cannot these days be isolated from outside influences; yet, removing religion from the Maltese way of of life will not help improve moral standards , but would weaken them.
William P Flynn
Jun 23rd 2010, 13:57
One wonders; is this a rebuttal of my letter or the United States of America? Mr.Camilleri's "rebuttal" of this most sacred and worthy of human writs, the US Constitution, representing a noble and magnificent ideal, by rubbishing the country it birthed, is too deep an intellectual gorge for me to descend.
Verifications:
1. The 365 empty churches I referred to was a figure of speech referring to the Church's own report that only a small percentage of Catholics attend church regularly. Is one entitled to believe the church's own research? Oh! And how can Mr.Camilleri see churches clearer from Canada than I can from Australia?!
2. The story of the gypping of the Vatican(and the British)in 1964 by the PN&ArchbishopGonzi is in the public domain as related by a major PN politician and “inner-sanctum” player. Anyone can Google it.
3. The number of paedophile-priests cannot be small;unless one intellectually accommodates the incredible coincidence that all the child-rapist-Maltese-priests existed in one orphanage and at the one time.
4. The abortion of the ill mother of four was supported by a nun, a canon-lawyer and Catholic medical-specialists on the US ToDay program. (see; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW8WfmlPbpQ)
The nun was excommunicated. The mother lived.
Wilfred L Camilleri
Jun 23rd 2010, 18:16
- Both. You’re the one who quoted the US Constitution. I happen to like the US for many things but not for the lack of morality many Americans seem to have descended into. - Well I Can’t but I visit twice a year and I frequent many churches during my visit so at least I have some first-hand experience. Many Catholics do not attend church regularly but that doesn’t meant the Church is going to disappear. Small percentage? CARA research shows that the population weighted percentage of adult Catholics who say they attended Mass once a week or more in 37 large Catholic population nations is 40%. Not what it should be but hardly a small percentage. - Again you’re making assumptions. Just because some teachers are pedophiles, that does not make all teachers pedophiles and one cannot extrapolate and label all teachers as pedophiles. Those that are should be punished if found guilty and that includes priests. - It’s obvious those involved are misguided and don’t seem to believe what they preach. The nun was excommunicated because she went against the teachings of her Church.
David Borg
Jun 23rd 2010, 18:20
As usual Mr Flynn makes incorrect and wild assertions. The Church statistics show that more than 50 per cent or an absolute majority of Maltese attend Mass. Even some of the non practising Catholics may define themselves as Catholics. Regarding the 1964 Constution the evidence is the opposite of what Mr Flynn states . Mr Flynn may not have read Rajt Malta Tinbidel by Dr Herbert Ganado. Dr Ganado states that some members of the Church in Malta wanted a different wording of the Constitution to better protect and guarantee the rights of the Church. The present wording was adopted after consultation with the Holy See.
Dawn Cummings
Jun 23rd 2010, 12:56
Well, mentioning the US is a good way to persuade others that the secularisation of Malta is a VERY BAD THING and a big no no.
I wonder if the writer of this article knows about the french constitution or does he simply ignore it because it would undermine his "strong" arguments?
PS:The US stand with 49% divorce rate....placing no 12 in this list...so not the "highest rate in the world"...Sur Camilleri: Maybe next time...
http://www.divorce.com/article/divorce-statistics
Kenneth Cassar
Jun 23rd 2010, 12:47
Ah, so according to Wilfred L. Camilleri's logic, the crime rate, capital punishment rate, the abortion rate, the drug addiction rate, etc is attributable to the USA being "secular".
Dear Mr Camilleri, perhaps you should investigate whether the above is not due to the stars in the US flag having a hypnotic negative effect on people. I think the plausibility of this being true is equal to that of secularism causing the negative effects you mention. At least, there seems to be as much evidence for both theories - none at all.
VICTOR RODENAS
Jun 23rd 2010, 11:48
MR. CAMILLERI (CANADA) SHOULD READ `RELIGION IN MALTA`, ON HIS COMPUTER...SUNDAY.MASS ATTENDENCE HERE IS ABOUT 55%.........GETTING LESS BY 10% EVERY 10 YRS.
CARMEL SERRACINO INGLOTT
Jun 23rd 2010, 15:16
55% is still a good majority. These 55% are those who could go to church. The 45% on the other hand are not those who chose not to go but include those who could not go. This 45% ( who do not go to church purposely) is not real, it is just a percentage who could and could not . Therefore ( my percentages now just an idea) say 20% did not want to go to church ( lazy or non believers) 20% were unable ( sick/working) 5% any other reason.
The Maltese still are catholic in vast numbers. The Maltese are Malta. Therefore Malta is Catholic . To prove otherwise call a referendum. State and Religion in Malta go hand in hand for the common good of Malta and its 'poor'. Long Live Catholic Malta.
Franco Farrugia
Jun 23rd 2010, 16:31
@ Carmel Serracino-Inglott: And may I add, long live those who swim in lack of logic and those poor fellows who are bereft of the rare gift of commonsense - no longer common!
Franco Farrugia
Jun 23rd 2010, 11:19
It is bewildering how these people, living as they do in large countries, keep on living nevertheless in a cocoon. How anyone, in this day and age, can possibly shoot down the idea of separation between Church and State, which in Malta there is not, is beyond me. Of course the Constitution needs amending, but no political party has the balls to do it. People say that the Constitution is the symbol of our democracy, but I, for one, and you, dear reader, ... have we ever had a direct say in the matter, regarding the Constitution? I am 49 and for as long as I have been in the electoral college, I have never felt the Constitution to be MY expression. Democracy? We play around with democracy and we know it. There is no democracy in our countries: every five years, we merely elect a group of power-hungry people led by one man, and that man, the PM, whoever he is, becomes a dictator for the next five years.
William P Flynn
Jun 23rd 2010, 12:12
I was 21 when this happened and I had no idea of the impact of Article 2 on people's lives until quite recently. The paedophile priest saga and the divorce issue brought it home.
80% of the population was either in prams, short pants, or just a gleam in their father's eyes in 1964, Yet here we are nearly half a century later, and the population is held to ransom by a gypping by the Curia.
The church should in the name of reason and contrition annihilate Article 2.
Franco Farrugia
Jun 23rd 2010, 14:26
@ Mr Flynn: Your latest comment shows that you have no idea what is going on. It is not up to the Church to amend the Constitution - it is up to Parliament, with two-thirds plus one majority of the House to make such amendments.
Emanuel Cilia Debono
Jun 23rd 2010, 11:07
For some people the term ' secularization of the State' is a a euphemistic way for saying 'subordination of the Church to the State'. In my opinion the Church has already gone a long way toward recognizing the separate identity of its role as distinct from that of the State . However to expect the Church to be subordinate to the State is like boosting up the idea of the State to the stature of a Hobbes' Leviathan. It is more in line with democratic practice to expect that Church and State hold regular and meaningful dialogue based on sound reason for the attainment of common aims. This is entirely feasible. Faith and Reason are compatible and should go together .
Kenneth Cassar
Jun 23rd 2010, 13:00
Everyone is subordinate to the state in legal matters. The church should not hold a privileged position in state affairs. It has the right to lobby as much as everyone else, but no more and no less. "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's...", you know the rest.
Darren Galea
Jun 23rd 2010, 10:39
I am dumbfounded by this letter. I'm not sure whether it was the author's intention to look this ignorant or not.
The U.S. is one of the most religious countries on Earth, with about 90% saying they believe in a personal god. It is a secular nation, but secularisation does not imply the death of religion, only the freedom of religion.
It's also interesting how in prison populations, the lowest percentage is made up of those who claim they believe in no god. Also, atheists have a lower rates of divorce.
It's also one of the few countries where a Christian fundamentalist has murdered a doctor which worked at an abortion clinic. I'm pretty sure that's not what the Maltese want.
Get your facts straight, Mr. Camilleri. First of all I suggest reading something, anything, about secularisation.
Wilfred Camilleri
Jun 23rd 2010, 13:05
Real ignorance is the refusal to believe in God!
It's true that a "Christian" fundamentalist" has murdered a doctor which worked at an abortion clinic. That only proves he didn't really believe in the teachings of Christ since a true believer would not kill.
Darren Galea
Jun 23rd 2010, 13:59
Ignorance is refusal to believe in god? I sincerely hope that was sarcasm, for your sake.
I don't like believing things purely on faith, ever. I need evidence to back up claims, and in the words of Carl Sagan: "extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence." The burden on proof is on you to provide evidence for such a deity.
Also, which god are you talking about? There are thousands. How can you choose one?
Scratch that, the only faith I have is that your comment wasn't serious.
C Gatt
Jun 23rd 2010, 15:23
"Real ignorance is the refusal to believe in God!"
Ah so Mr Camilleri finally shows his true colours. this has nothing to do with America but with his desire to create a theocracy. perhaps he should try that in Canada, but why impose it on us?
And please do me the favour of not speaking on behalf of the " Maltese People", especially when you live abroad. The ruddy cheek of it!
Wilfred L Camilleri
Jun 23rd 2010, 18:37
@C Gatt No I don't believe in theocracy as you assume. I may not live in Malta but I was born there and lived there for twenty years of my life and for your information, I'm still a Maltese citizen and therefore have a right to make my opinions known. @Darren Galea Those who believe in God do not do so because they have proof. Carl Sagan said that "extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence." Was he talking about the existence of God when he said that? No, he was talking about the cosmos. What would qualify as extraordinary evidence for believing in God Mr. Galea?