Parliamentary committee discusses gay rights
What happens in the bedroom is, up to a point, the government's business, because it often had to solve problems caused there, the chairman of the House Social Affairs Committee, Edwin Vassallo said.
Speaking during a sitting on Tuesday where the Malta Gay Rights Movement gave a presentation to the committee on the situation of homosexuals and transgender individuals in Malta, Mr Vassallo said: "What we're learning in this committee is that what happens in the bedroom often ends up before the state to do something about it." As examples, he cited single parents and teenage pregnancies.
The MGRM's Gabi Calleja presented to the committee a 2008 report detailing problems gay people faced in Malta.
One of the major topics was the issue of homosexual couples and children. Even though Malta did not allow adoption by gay couples, Ms Calleja said "we're creative and still find a way to have children". These methods included surrogacy, artificial insemination and IVF and also intercourse with a member of the opposite sex.
However, since the other partner would not be listed as the biological or legal parent of the child, there could be problems when it came to a member of the couple accompanying the child on a trip and on parents' day, even though the child would have been raised by one of the couple.
It was for this reason that the MGRM was calling for second parent adoption, among other things, including gay marriage.
Mr Vassallo made his comments in reaction to Labour MP Anthony Zammit's reiteration of Labour leader Joseph Muscat's statement that it was not for the state to care what happened in the bedroom.
Prof. Zammit said Malta still had a long way to go in civil rights for homosexuals and that discussion on the topic had to be open to marriage and civil partnership for gays. "I am happy to say that I have a lot of gay friends," Prof. Zammit said, adding he was never ashamed to be seen with them.
The idea of gays forming a "family" found a fair amount of resistance from Nationalist MPs Beppe Fenech Adami and Mr Vassallo.
Dr Fenech Adami asked the MGRM representatives whether in homosexual couples there were "mother and father roles". In his and his wife's experience, Dr Fenech Adami said, when they tried filling each other's role the results weren't that good.
However, the gay rights activists contested the question, asking what sort of roles these were.
Mr Vassallo said he was not sure about the use of the word "family" to refer to homosexual couples, defending President George Abela's comments on the family earlier this year, which had sparked outrage by the MGRM.
Mr Vassallo said MGRM seemed to be denying the natural origins of the family, which can only occur when a man and woman procreate. He also asked the group whether they could provide the committee with any research showing that children brought up by same-sex parents were not affected negatively by the arrangement.
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Roger Tirazona
Jun 6th 2010, 19:12
I would also like to add that PL and PN should not shy out of a referendum. This should not be a government VS opposition matter. They should both agree on honouring the referendum result and stay out of campaigning for either side. These are ethical/moral issues more than political. One should let stakeholders campaign on the media. A Referendum for Gay Rights (and other issues) should be encouraged and made open-ended as our Society CAN change its mind in 10 or 20 years. I don't think there is need to put these issues in Electoral manifestos.
Roger Tirazona
Jun 6th 2010, 17:59
Moreover I would like to add that the point here is that our legislation states that Marriage is something that has to happen between a man and a woman....only. Gay couples can without problems sign a contract similar to marriage....but cannot be called marriage because our law does not allow it to be called such, since it's not happening between a man and a woman. It is simply a question of legal jargon and labels.
I hope that we are living in a democratic society and that such important issues, like the introduction of gay marriages, divorce, abortion etc. be submitted to a referendum. We need more referenda here in Malta....we need to exercise democracy much much more!
Steve Pace
Jun 8th 2010, 13:33
"I hope that we are living in a democratic society and that such important issues, like the introduction of gay marriages, divorce, abortion etc. be submitted to a referendum. We need more referenda here in Malta....we need to exercise democracy much much more!"
Although i can see your point , i do not agree with you that in the case of issues like divorce a referendum should be made. We are most likely dealing with a minority of people here and i do not see that divorce should be a matter of the mighty against the weak. Anyone should have the freedom to decide whether to apply for divorce or not, irrespective of whether the majority agrees or not . After all we do not have referendums to legalize speed camera's dubious placements and ridiculous speed limits .
Roger Tirazona
Jun 6th 2010, 17:56
Firstly, I don't think we should mix things up. Gay rights are not a religious matter. I don't think parliament was discussing whether homosexual acts are a sin or not; but rather, what rights are not being given or should be given to the gay minority in Malta. So please let's move on from the fundamentalist mentality that our dominant religion should be dictating our parliamentary decisions.
About mother and father / gay marriages issue. All I can say is that I know people coming from what we call "normal" mother and father households who ended up having serious problems and stigmas in their lives whilst other people who I know were raised by a gay couple lead a normal and happy and a non-homosexual life. (So please read up that there is no link between homosexuality and having homosexual parents)
Gorge Bajada
Jun 5th 2010, 23:53
For all homosexuals out there, don't allow the comments of a conservative and narrow-minded society to destroy what you care about most. Belief in yourself, have the courage of your convictions and you will reign supreme.
For all heterosexuals out there, please leave God and the church out of it, it's a state matter.
malcolm seychell
Jun 5th 2010, 22:17
This matter has to be discussed seriously because people and children are involved.
Mr Vassallo is 100% right, that its also the government right to know what happens, since most cases such as single parents are going to government to ask for financial assistance.
I believe everyone should be free to do what he or she likes, but then everyone should carry the burden and not put it on the state.
The PL is acting more like a prostitute who want to accomodate everyone needs. This is impossible, since to satisfy someone you have to take from others. THERE IS A PRICE FOR EVERYTHING DEAR SOCJALISTI. ZMIEN MINTOFF TA KOLLOX B XEJN SPICCA.
josianne den ridder
Jun 5th 2010, 12:06
I HAVE "GAY" PEOPLE IN MY FAMILY.......ALL ARE BEAUTIFUL PEOPLE AND WOULDN'T WANT IT ANY OTHER WAY......WHAT IS WRONG IS IN YOUR MINDS, NOT THEIRS......CE LA VIE
Steve Pace
Jun 5th 2010, 10:28
@Joe Zammit - Part 3 -
"Those homosexuals who, by God's grace, have come out of their sinful life thank God and the Catholic Church for helping them overcome all temptations of homosexuality that used to maintain them slaves."
Richard Sipe, a psychotherapist and former priest, has studied celibacy and sexuality in the priesthood for four decades. He has authored three books on the topic. He once estimated that 30% of the priesthood is homosexually oriented. Elsewhere, he is quoted as estimating that between 25% and 45% of American priests are homosexual in orientation.
Source
"http://www.catholicintl.com/epologetics/articles/pastoral/homosexual-priests-print.htm"
Relax Joe ! It's closer to home than you think !
Steve Pace
Jun 5th 2010, 10:23
@Joe Zammit - Part 2 -
"Where there is sin, there is no love. Where there is sin, there cannot be love. Between homosexuals there is only lust. Love comes from God, lust comes from the devil. These are realities. "
Honestly i would like to ask you one favour next time you comment on any blog. Ask yourself one simple question
Do i Joe Zammit live such a perfect life and have such a perfect relationship with God and my neighbours that i have the right to condemn all others , hurt people , judge people and use the word of God in anyway i deem fit as long as i put my point forward , even without having the faintest knowledge and understanding of what i am saying ?
Believe me Joe. I am a Roman Catholic just like you.To be very honest with you , you are putting me off so much the Catholic religion as i don't want to associate myself with people with your same way of thinking ! So careful . Because you are not only affecting non catholics with your comments but even catholics. Not in a good way i mean !
Steve Pace
Jun 5th 2010, 10:08
@Joe Zammit - ". So as far as possible, ONLY a married couple should adopt. When there are no more married couples wanting adoption, only one person should adopt to be like (not exactly!) their father or mother.
I really would like to know from where you get your facts ! I know cases of single people who have adopted not one but up to four children . The reason for granting this adoption has absolutley NOTHING TO DO WITH THE YOUR STATEMENT "When there are no more married couples wanting adoption,"
One other point. Your comment "So as far as possible, ONLY a married couple should adopt"
is again a claim which has absolutley no foundation at all... What if the adopting couple seperate ( and i am not even getting to divorce ) Should they be taken back ...
I totally agree with D.Vella ..
"You are at risk of repeating yourself ad nauseam.. can't you at least, please, think of something original to say?. Your repetitive statements against gays and divorce have been shot down by many and unless you come up with something worthy you are in danger of being ignored"
E.Vella
Jun 4th 2010, 23:54
Jekk mhux affari tal-Gvern x'jigri fil-kamra tas-sodda mela jaghmlu li jridu imma d-definizzjoni ta familja hija wahda, dik ta bejn mara u ragel ghax safrattant kulhadd bil-giri ghand il-gvern biex jiehu l-beneficcji socjali
P Borg
Jun 5th 2010, 21:50
Why don't you look at how many straight people benefit from social security benefits & how many gay people benefit from them....in that case the government should not allow one night stands, should not allow anyone to have kids outside of wedlock & should also make sure that people who are married stay that way. After all most of the benefits the government pays are for these reasons. Whoever pays tax should have the same rights regardless of what happens in the bedroom, this is absolutely ridiculous. In this case gay people should have the option to pay or not to pay tax considering that we don't have the same rights as everyone else. For all those ignorants out there who have no clue what the definition of a family is, look at a dictionary but since you probably wouldn't know how to use it, here it is:
"Two or more people who share goals and values, have long-term commitments to one another, and reside usually in the same dwelling place." Mr J Zammit, for you I have no words, you're a hopeless case of cult brainwashing.
Joe Zammit
Jun 4th 2010, 22:02
Homosexuals need help. The Sixth and Ninth Commandments prohibit any sexual act, internal or external, outside marriage as grave sin. This is the TRUTH. Homosexuals indulging in homosexual acts are leading a sinful life. It would be a great disservice not to tell them the truth.
Those homosexuals who, by God's grace, have come out of their sinful life thank God and the Catholic Church for helping them overcome all temptations of homosexuality that used to maintain them slaves.
Whoever loves homosexuals encourage them to leave their sinful life and lead a life of grace with God. Whoever encourages homosexuals to continue in their sinful life is really their enemy.
C Camilleri
Jun 4th 2010, 22:37
mr Zammit, 'sexual act, internal or external, outside marriage as grave sin'. Grave sin? Mur u hallina.
U dawn il pridki? Ghadek ma indunajtx li r-religjon ma hi xejn hlief biex tikkontrolla l-imgieba tal-poplu? Tahseb li alla ta l kmandamenti il mose fuq it tavli jew? Lol qas hemm bzonn nghid xejn izjed
Valerie Borg
Jun 5th 2010, 06:56
We know what your opinion is but if you don't have anything new to add then why bother to continue. Homosexuality will never disappear so you have to deal with it. You can't get rid of us.
Victor Sammut
Jun 4th 2010, 19:17
The Right Honourable Pierre Elliot Trudeau , prime minister of Canada (1968-1979, 1980-1984) make this memorable statement: “The state has no business in the bedrooms of the nation” Of course Trudeau was the head of a 'free' state. Gays here are a proud group and are contributing members of our great Canadian society. I can only hope that one day Malta will be 'free' also and recognize that human rights are the cornerstone of society.
A.Gauci Cunningham
Jun 4th 2010, 18:36
Unfortunately, as always, a discussion on this topic always routes down the same path. God, church and whether homosexuality is A SIN OR NOT. Frankly this is all rather irrelevant to the fact that the government ,formed by whichever Party the people choose, is not there to legislate in favour of the pious and against those who in the eyes of the pious are sinners. The government is there to cater for everyone. Now the PN has historically always either dithered or worked infavour of the retention of the status quo on this issue so what I cannot understand is not the Prime Minister as such (Gonzi's staunch conservative beliefs are an open secret) but those who persist in believing that the PN will legislate infavour of gay marriage. The PN has a set of ideals and beliefs into which gay marriage does not fit. Those who can't bring themselves to accept this because they can't imagine "abandoning" their party because their father and their nannu all stood by "Eddie" in his heydays have noone to blame but themselves for the fact that we rank among the lowest in the EU on gay rights!!!
Jesmond Abela
Jun 4th 2010, 16:22
Mr Joe ZAmmit , Who are you to judge? I am really disgusted….. Shame on you.!!!! By any chance what religion you practice? Definitely not the Roman Catholic!!!
I can’t believe in the 21st century and people with your mentality still exist.....REALLY SAD!!!!!!
David Seychell
Jun 4th 2010, 16:13
Ms Valerie Borg, it's true that a surrogate mother is not always the biological mother. However, in case of a gay couple male+male or female+female deciding to resort to surrogacy, it is always the case, that either the natural father or the natural mother, pre conception, pre intentionally and arbitrary decides to conceive a child (by donating sperm/ ovaries) in order to give it away as soon it is born.
In case where the surrogate mother is the natural mother, it does not give up her child because she is not financially capable of providing for her child. It Pre intentionally agrees with a third party to conceive a child just to sell it to them as soon as the child is born. Surrogacy is when a woman, BEFORE conceiving the child, decides to deprive that child from its right to have the love and caring of its own natural mother.
A child have the right to have its own natural mother/father, at least where possible. Finding different ways of depriving this right to children before their conception is NOT what I would call "creative ways of having children". I would call it and irresponsible way of having children.
J Spiteri
Jun 4th 2010, 16:11
"Mr Vassallo said MGRM seemed to be denying the natural origins of the family, which can only occur when a man and woman procreate".
Kemm sejjer zball Sur Vassallo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A man and a woman without children are a family
A father and a child are a family
A mother and a child are a family
A mother and father and adopted children are a family
It's really insulting such a description of a family from members of parliament!!!!!!!!
So to justify why you are against gay rights, try to think of other excuses!
E Camilleri
Jun 4th 2010, 23:50
Mr. Vassallo was speaking about the "natural origins of the family" referring to the natural act of procreation between a man and a woman. Try seeing if you can procreate through the union of two men or two women, imbaghad naraw min vera sejjer zball sur Spiteri!
c.agius
Jun 5th 2010, 10:58
a couple not able to procreate is therefore not considered a family?? marriage unites a family, children come after that.
I'd rather a happy couple in love with no kids than a couple who's not able to take care of any kids and procreates some eight children giving them no attention, sending them in care and making angry criminals out of them.
i bet God won't make any difference between a man-woman couple or any other sort of couple. family is where love reigns. who cares if they're homosexuals or not.
M.A.Vella
Jun 5th 2010, 12:03
Well said Mr.Camilleri ........LOL........ Gays will never learn, this is not about god or about politics and religion...it just cannot be done. Gays cannot have children of their own with natural methods. Likewise i do not belive they should be allowed to adopt children which inevitably will be turned into homosexuals. Do what you want in bed but leave the moral values of families alone.
J Spiteri
Jun 5th 2010, 13:22
E Vella,
Your comment is a proof of how some of us are still in 2010 unable to think through their own mind!!!!! Can you tell me what do allowances granted to "single parents and teenage pregnancies" have to do with gay rights???? Are there any allowances involved???? NO!
It is a shame that gay people are in our age still trying to get recognized as normal citizens, who have rights as straight people!
I'm also sorry to read Dr Fenech Adami's comment about the fixed roles of mother and father!!! Some mothers are bread-winners nowadays while their husband takes the role of upbringing the kids on a full-time basis!!!! As a politician he should know better!
J Spiteri
Jun 5th 2010, 13:24
E Camilleri
Sorry ... but his definition, iddur kemm iddur mal-lewza, is still wrong!!!!!!!!!! If i cannot biologically procreate, I am STILL eligible to get married and build a family! So this excuse of procreation is still not enough! That was my point!
Arthur Soler
Jun 4th 2010, 15:32
@ Joe Zammit
Quote ..."Homosexual acts are grave sins that separate the homosexual from God and put him or her on the path to hell."
You must believe in a very strange God indeed. Please click on following link.
http://www.news-medical.net/news/2006/10/23/20718.aspx
One must surely wonder why God messed up so badly when he made homosexuality so common in the animal kingdom and especially so amongst chimpanzees, who happen top be humanity's closest biological relatives? But of course, Chimps don't go to Hell or to Heaven, so they can sin all they want while here on earth. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It is people like you who are "sinful" through their sheer ignorance and intolerance of anything that does not fit into their world view of life and living.
Joe Zammit
Jun 4th 2010, 15:26
Taking care of children is one thing, adopting children is another.
Adoption means becoming in the legal sense their father and mother. So as far as possible, ONLY a married couple should adopt. When there are no more married couples wanting adoption, only one person should adopt to be like (not exactly!) their father or mother.
But same-sex civil partnership for lust and for adoption is against nature itself. God created nature male and female. So we must imitate nature the way God has made it.
C. Micallef-Borg
Jun 4th 2010, 15:03
For the research the Parliamentary Committee 'requires' I direct MGRM to several case studies and research conducted in Australia and The Netherlands. The International Journal of Law, Policy and the Family (available at the UOM library) and articles therein vis-a-vis this subject, should be able to aid you better. I firmly believe that good case may be made if you build and expand upon proposals/ideas derived from that propogated by authors in the Journal. I obviously encourage more indepth research and study to further substantiate said case.
Daisy Decelis
Jun 4th 2010, 13:24
Kids need love and care. I know gay individuals who can provide this as much as, if not more, than some heterosexual couples who we read about in the newspapers. Being biologically capable of having kids does not automatically make anyone a responsible and loving parent. The examples given by Mr. Vassallo only prove the point since both cases are examples of heterosexual behaviour.
D Vella
Jun 4th 2010, 12:25
@J Zammit..
You are at risk of repeating yourself ad nauseam.. can't you at least, please, think of something original to say?. Your repetitive statements against gays and divorce have been shot down by many and unless you come up with something worthy you are in danger of being ignored.
Joe Zammit
Jun 4th 2010, 09:37
There is no, nor can there be any, gay marriage.
Marriage is only between one man and one woman for ever. Marriage is intended for Love and Procreation. In gay partnerships there is NO LOVE but lust and NO PROCREATION.
Gay marriage is a contradiction in terms, so it does not exist nor can it ever exist.
Daniel Vella
Jun 4th 2010, 10:09
Joe Zammit, gay and lesbian couples love each other as much as a normal couple does.
Joe Zammit
Jun 4th 2010, 11:07
Where there is sin, there is no love. Where there is sin, there cannot be love. Between homosexuals there is only lust. Love comes from God, lust comes from the devil. These are realities. Those who really love homosexuals help them to come out of their sinful life, as many others have done and thank God for having pulled them out of their past miserable life.
Chris Ellul
Jun 4th 2010, 12:10
It's because of people like you that this country's mentality will never move forward and we'll forever be doomed to hear comments like these!!
Gays and lesbians are not freaks, they are not monsters, they are not the evil devil coming to haunt us.... they're human beings just like u and me. I was always thought in my childhood to love and respect others just like you would love and respect yourself... Basta immoru il-knisja u noqghodu fuq il-bank ta quddiem, imbghad meta nigu ghal-valuri l-iktar importanti f'hajjitna, malajr ninsewhom!
And stop with this god god god....you sound like a church's parrot.
Daisy Decelis
Jun 4th 2010, 13:31
I get the feeling that you never actually spoke to a gay person. So I guess your comments are a result of lack of knowledge not homophobia!
Colette Farrugia Bennett
Jun 4th 2010, 18:54
I truely respect your Catholic Value System, however I demand that you stop verbally abusing the LGBT community because you are not GOD! May I remind you that God actually said:
"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." John 8:7.
PLEASE live by GOD's words and stop verbalising your homophobia and hate in this forum because you are not projecting any LOVE that God has taught you to share.
Shaun Azzopardi
Jun 5th 2010, 14:25
I beg to differ. Procreation is not essential part of marriage, or else sterile couples wouldn't be able to marry. You've got yourself a twisted definition of marriage that a substantial number of people don't agree with. And I'm fairly certain you don't agree with it either, you just overlooked the possibility of sterile couples.
How can you say that there is no love in gay partnerships? What gives you the authority to say so?
And lust goes hand in hand with love you know. Otherwise how could a married couple have sex if the spouses didn't lust after each other?
What gay marriage can't exist? Well you should go tell that to a number of states in the U.S and in Europe, so that they can realize that they have legalized something that doesn't exist.
Peter Shaw
Jun 4th 2010, 09:13
I have nothing against gay couples.But I feel sorry for "their" children because they will surely be taunted and ridiculed at school and elsewhere. In christian Malta people can be really mean and use virtiolic comments against persons they perceive as different.
Valerie Borg
Jun 4th 2010, 09:42
Why are Christian Maltese mean? Is it because they are taught not to accept all people for who they are and not by labels or other means. Isn't it up to us as parents to teach our chidren to treat others how we would like to be treated. Kids only learn by their parents right? They don't have the gene to hate other kids who have 2 mums or 2 dads. They are taught this. All children unfortunately get bullied be it they have a mum, dad or 2 mums or 2 dads! It's up to us adults to correct the behavior.
Daniel Vella
Jun 4th 2010, 10:21
I agree 100% with what Ms Valerie said. The only reason kids do this to other kids is because they are taught to "hate" - which is actually a point in favour of homosexual parents, since because we are in the minority ourselves, we know what it is like to be bullied and teach our kids better.
And kids will find something to bully other kids about, regardless if their parents are gay or straight, because that is what kids do.
Sharon Camilleri
Jun 4th 2010, 11:42
Mr shaw.. jiena naf min xorta izewweg u kellhu tfal, imbghad isepparaw ghax kien gay.. mhux xorta tigi? U dan it tifel jaghmel gimgha ma ommu u wekkend mal missier u l-partner... u nassigurak li meta jigi min ghandhom ferhan ikun ghax nassigurak qishu princep jistmawh!
Kevin Cassar
Jun 4th 2010, 14:04
@ Valerie Borg and Daniel Vella
It's much more complicated than that and too much to explain in 200 words. Your view that children act that way because they are taught to hate is an oversimplification of the problem. I will not delve into why children are sometimes mean (because it's a very long argument and because it does not really matter). The solution is teaching the children to accept diversity and opinions. This is obviously impossible when the parents themselves are close minded like a few of the commentators on these blogs
AAzzopardi
Jun 4th 2010, 08:46
I beleive that children should have a mother and father figure, and not daddy and daddy or mummy and mummy. I am sure that the ambient they will live in, (between them) won't be any different than a normal family, however even at school, children are bullied for every little thing. Missierek p**ta was one of the most common things you hear during playing time. can you imagine what a boy having two fathers will pass through - poor kid.
just my opinion anyway. as I said i'm can't say that they won't have the love, anzi most probably more, as gay/lesbian couples are more loving to each other from nature (from what I see from gay friends), but still i beleive that a father and a mother role are important in a kid's life.
To all Gays/Lesbians: I respect your choice/nature but the subject here is not you (for a change) but the upbringing of kids.
Mary Borg
Jun 4th 2010, 01:49
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2An4o3_n6lU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVRmAzpoMJ8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIQqyl68Myo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCLYlZ5KtO0&feature=related
TO ALL OF YOU WHO SAY GAYS SHOULD NOT ADOPT CHILDREN, WATCH THE ABOVE 4 VIDEOS AND THEN HAVE THE COURAGE TO SAY THAT GAYS ARE NOT GOOD ROLE MODELS FOR CHILDREN!!!!
Aleksandar Dimitrijevic
Jun 4th 2010, 08:52
Mrs. Borg, i wonder who were the role models of people in your links?
Their heterosexual parents maybe?
Valerie Borg
Jun 4th 2010, 08:59
I watched these videos and it reminded me of how everyone here behaves when the Malta Carnivale is on. So can I go and do the same thing go pick out some videos from youtube and do the same thing as you. I have found a few that are great examples of heterosexuals behaving appropriately showing how good parents thay can be. Can you hear my sarcasm Ms Borg. So stereotypical of you. You can't see in both places pride events and malta carnivale people are just having fun. Why don't you try and find some real phootage of gay parents actually being parents so you can actually find out the truth instead of throwing this garbage in people faces. I can show some great videos of holding my daughter on my shoulders dancing at the Malta carnivale does that show how homosexual I am? My daughter was happy and having fun does that mean Im not a good parent?
Martin Farrugia
Jun 4th 2010, 00:10
The only reason we have gay marriage and adoption by gay couples is because politicians are after cheap votes and the PL seems to be jumping on the band wagon. Homosexuality is not and cannot be normal. But we live in a world were it is politically correct to call a perversion of nature 'normal' . The gays promote it and our hypocritical political establishment condones it.
Valerie Borg
Jun 4th 2010, 08:43
So do you think the politicians are getting our votes by saying all this garbage? How many homosexuals do you think there are in Malta? Yes we are a minority but we are human too and have the same rights as other humans. If you think it's just for votes you are totally wrong cause the current government are doing everything in their power not to provide us with rights that we deserve. It's up to us citizens who we want to vote in favour of and are you going to vote for a party who doesn't allow you to marry the love of your life, who doesn't allow you to adopt a child that you have always wanted, who wont allow you to have the widows pension if your partner dies, who wont let you inherit the assets that you bothinvested so much into to have for your future, who makes you pay more tax because your family is not identified as a family. Well i wonder which way I would vote. This is all real issues Mr Farrugia not just fun for politicians even though they are having fun with our lives. Think before you speak please.
S. Camilleri
Jun 3rd 2010, 23:16
Why on earth should "gay rights" be an issue on the agenda of any committee, let alone a Parliamentary one is truly baffling. Being Gay is a choice or a physiological state of being and it is nobody else's business. Gays should have exactly the same rights, protection and dutiesas any other individual; no less no more. If Gays chose to live together , their business; if they want to draw up a will or contract to share their assets so be it. But to try and paint such union as a marriage is insulting.
Daniel Vella
Jun 4th 2010, 10:23
Being gay is definitely not a choice.
Russell Sammut
Jun 4th 2010, 16:17
No One would choose to be gay if it was just a choice... Its not easy being gay, If you think that it is just a choice you must be bi-sexual
David Seychell
Jun 3rd 2010, 22:05
"These methods included surrogacy..."
Surrogacy is an arrangement whereby a woman agrees to become pregnant and deliver a child for a contracted party(a gay couple for example). A surrogate mother conceives a child that she won't care about. Imagine your natural mother PRE-decided to abandon you from birth not because of some insurmountable problems but because of money. Is this fair for the child? Is this what society should promote? For those not married yet, Society created the institution of marriage to encourage and incentivise us to choose that relationship which is in the best interest of children.
This is why we need civil partnership, because this type of union would only legally recognize other type of unions, whereas marriage does not just legally recognize one type of union but also promote, encourage and incentivise a specific type of union which is, traditionally, the ideal for children. In other words, society should never promote that which is not ideal for children, and since marriage is society's way of promoting that union which is in the best interest of children, by applying it to other unions which are not ideal for children would mean betraying the aim of marriage itself.
Valerie Borg
Jun 4th 2010, 08:32
Mr Seychell, surrogacy can also be a woman who gives birth to a child who is biologically not hers and she knows pre conception that this child is not hers to keep it belongs biologically to someone else be it gay or straight. These woman do it to help others who can't have children be it gay or straight. You may think that the natural mother giving up her child is wrong for financial reasons but have you ever thought that the parent/s want a better future for their child that they can't provide. Isn't this a choice for the parents to make it doesn't mean it's not fare on the child. You think it may be because you personally wouldn't do it but others do have that choice. How do you know what's ideal for children. Marriage and unionship give the same legal rights to both parents so isn't this better for the future of our children. They can inherit from their non biological parent for their future?
Joe Busuttil
Jun 3rd 2010, 21:18
Beppe and Edwin ,do you two gentlemen tell Gonzi PN what goes on in your bedrooms? Guess not . So why should you consider what goes on in our bedrooms as your government's business? As for gays,they were born that way I guess and so it's no fault of theirs. I am sure the Lord has a place for them too in his plans. Get out of your medieval mentality both of you.
Aleksandar Dimitrijevic
Jun 3rd 2010, 20:53
Question for ones that say that homosexuality is a choice.
If sexuality is a conscious choice one make, when did you decide that you are heterosexual?
M Vella
Jun 3rd 2010, 20:49
What mediocre politicians and even more unbelievable comments do we have here. When receiving a leaflet on fostering children from my local council inviting all (clearly including gay and lesbian couples) ... then I look back at Malta and read this crap. CRINGE!!!! When will this country ever grow up?
I so very wonder what 'manual of fathering/mothering' mr. fenech adami is following. how very patronising of any family, including those formed by heterosexual couples. Shame on you and the ignorance you promote.
MBorg
Jun 3rd 2010, 20:30
@ Albert Gauci Cunningham
You are free to live your life the way you deem fit. Have all the fun you want but do not expect what is against nature to change just to please you.
Equality the " buzzword of the century " does not apply in your case because you chose to be different. What is different cannot be equal. Elementary Mr Watson.
Mary Smith
Jun 4th 2010, 04:57
Why discuss "Gay Rights"? Gays are people and people should all have the same rights.
Sexual orientation is not a choice but is what you are, like the colour of your eyes, your height or gender.
And what is so threatening about giving people, whatever their gender/sexual orientation the same righs under the law? Who would object to this - after all it is part and parcel of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
Should not a cohabiting couple (whether they are in a same-sex relationship or even two people or even two sister or two brothers) who set up a household together and who have lived together for most of their lives have the same rights under the law, say for pensions, inheritance etc. as a heterosexual married couple? Even 'common-law' heterosexual unions should be recognized and receive the same benefits, for the fact that they cohabit makes this by definition a marriage (by the same token, a legally married couple who never lived together does not constitiute a marriage - cohabitation is the operative word here).
Gay cohabiting couples should be able to register their union in a "Partnership Agreement' that gives them full rights under the law.
Mike F Abbot
Jun 4th 2010, 08:07
Equality the " buzzword of the century "
HAHA
that's like saying... 'the wheel... it's just a fad"
moron
Aleksandar Dimitrijevic
Jun 3rd 2010, 17:33
the best part is that many here are demanding a research that shows that children of homosexual couples are not negatively affected by their parents sexuality, but when the research from a reputable source is provided, it is being ignored.
http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/parenting-full.pdf
this link was posted in this thread at least twice.
Show how their findings are wrong, or just admit that you have no idea what you are talking about.
Albert Gauci Cunningham
Jun 3rd 2010, 17:25
@all gay bashers-----Your bile, ignorance and homophobia will not stop us living our lives the way we deem fit the way we were born to live and the way we want it to unfold in the future. We brought happiness, creativity and joy in this world and we intend keeping it that way.
@BOTH Parties----Respect is a cliche. I dont want respect from Politicians. They only respect you when they need your vote. I need my rights the same way my sister, my neighbour, my boss, my mother and my collegue has them. I dont give a toss what a couple of Bible readers think, I don't care what the Catholic church thinks either. I'm not planning to see my life fading away being the underdog because some member of the Opus Dei thinks so especially if this same Opus Dei member has gay encounters every so often!!
@Equality---Equality is the new 'in thing' now!!! The buzzword of the century!!! But then if you're gay you can't have sex cause its a sin, you can't apply for subsidised property, you can't marry, you can't...you can't ....you can't..........Wake me up when the charade is over please!!!
Matt Bonanno
Jun 3rd 2010, 17:10
Hi Mr. Joe Zammit, you might want to visit www.taliban.afg and download an application form. They're recruiting.
Valerie Borg
Jun 3rd 2010, 17:25
heheh Good one. Made me laugh.
Robert Callus
Jun 3rd 2010, 17:07
The govt's business in people's private life is where there is a crime going on such as domestic violence. Teenage sex might be considered as such since (though it is ridiculous), having sex with someone under 18 is a crime.
But what do adult homosexuals and single parents have to do with this? What is Mr Vassallo proposing? That we don't allow people have sex unless they are married or in a steady relationship?
And why is he afraid to call a homosexual couple a family? Are a married heterosexual couple who can't have children not a family, by his argument? Or is a widow living with her two daughters not a family since there is no male involved?
Unfortunately we live in a very conservative country. But I never imagined MPs could be THAT conservative!
Valerie Borg
Jun 3rd 2010, 16:33
@ Joe Zammit. Those are very powerful words it has made go straight all of a sudden. NOT! People like you make this world a difficult place to live. Didn't Jesus say Love one another as I have loved you. I hope one day homosexuality passes you by eg your son or daughter grand daughter or grandson and come back and tell me will you abandon your own? Jesus never did. I feel for you it's not your fault Mr Zammit it's what you have been taught but you know what it's our turn to teach our children reality, not to discriminate and about the future not the horrible passed. Good luck to you.
Joe Zammit
Jun 3rd 2010, 16:25
What is unnatural cannot be a right.
Homosexual partnership (SURELY NOT MARRIAGE!) is unnatural.
Therefore, homosexual partnership cannot be a right.
g Muscat
Jun 3rd 2010, 17:25
Seems like the phrase, live and let live doesn't come to your mind mister zammit. Why do we always have to Put God in the middle of every political decision that has to be taken? Why does the closed mind of a few people like you have to impose things on us? Why the hell do you care what im doing with my partner? I can't understand.
Robert Callus
Jun 3rd 2010, 17:28
Who decides what is natural? Is chastity natural? And scientific study on mammals shows otherwise. Does that mean the pope hasn't got a right to remain as such?
Robert Scullion
Jun 3rd 2010, 18:29
"What is unnatural cannot be a right"
Given the pc you used is clearly a product of man, rather than nature I suppose you will be disconnecting it and refraining from ever using it again.
Or are you one of these people who only spouts religious nonsense when it suits you and ignores the parts your dislike?
Joe Zammit
Jun 3rd 2010, 16:09
A person is not homosexual just because he or she has a homosexual tendency. All of us have some evil tendency but we are NOT that evil just because of that tendency.
A person becomes homosexual when he or she indulges in homosexual acts. A person becomes a thief, not if he or she has a tendency to steal, but if and when he or she starts stealing.
Homosexual acts are grave sins that separate the homosexual from God and put him or her on the path to hell. Homosexuality is not a joke. It is a grave evil and homosexuals badly need conversion which, by God's grace, is possible to obtain just as many others have given up this sinful life.
Daniel Vella
Jun 3rd 2010, 16:19
Crawl back from whichever cave you came out of and let the grown ups do the talking please....
Maria Fenech
Jun 3rd 2010, 16:25
If god didn't want homosexuals to exist he wouldn't have created them. Simple as that.
Analise Spiteri
Jun 3rd 2010, 16:45
excuse me sir, but who are you to say that a gay or lesbian is going to hell? God loves everyone, including disabled, single parents, divorced, gay, straight, trans. many gay youths still attend mass, still pray and believe in God and His love. Love is never sinful. Your attitude towards gay people is probably sinful, because you are to judge nobody and you are to love and respect everyone the way God loves you. I have serious doubt whether you are actually doing that!!!!!!
Marie GW
Jun 3rd 2010, 16:51
This comment is disgusting.
m borg
Jun 3rd 2010, 16:56
Mr J Zammit. How dare you call someone you don't know evil. How dare you call people who suffer all their lives and give unconditional love evil. How dare you judge when you have not the minimal idea of what a gay person goes through. Shame on you Mr J. Zammit. And you call yourself Christian? I love Christ with all my heart because he taught us one big lesson. LOVE. You first have to understand the love of God before you blabber away and instigate homophobic cruel acts. It's because of people like you Mr Zammit who have committed suicide. It's because of people like you Mr Zammit who are suffering constantly alone. I would suggest you say a prayer tonight for YOUR soul Mr. Zammit.
Robert Scullion
Jun 3rd 2010, 17:06
You stick to your fictitious god and made-up book ... the rest of us are quite happy living in the 21st Century
Sharon camilleri
Jun 4th 2010, 12:08
disgusting u jekk isejjah lilek innifsek nisrani jiena ma rridx naghmel parti min dil komunita!
g. portelli
Jun 3rd 2010, 16:05
Perhaps the honourable Beppe Fenech Adami could care to enlighten us which bits of 'mothering' he found impossible to deliver? Was it the feeding, nappy changing, empathising disciplining, cuddling, nurturing in general to provide a stable environment, or was it the sheer number of hours spent with one's offspring coupled with bread winning? Divisions of labour in the family aren't entrenched, it is only in the minds of the inflexible that they are.
Could the right honourable gentleman also care to draw up a sanitised list of 'Mothering' and 'Fathering' duties according to his philosophy. I am sure this could prove even more enlightening if his 'visionary' and inclusive performance is anything to go by today. I am sincerely interested in finding out.
M. Camilleri
Jun 3rd 2010, 17:05
Well said !!!
I am beginning to wonder whether there was some time-warp and they got catapulted from medieval times into the 21st century, or whether they are just daft.
Johnathan Cilia
Jun 3rd 2010, 15:48
For shame! There are many studies out there(and have been out there for years) that prove that same sex couples can very ably raise children with no negative side effects. Once again, we are stuck in the stone age. Beppe Fenech Adami is too much of a conservative, to the point that he does not care about any other point than the traditional one, no matter what any study or person says.
Joe Zammit
Jun 3rd 2010, 16:35
God has planned a man and a woman to beget a child and thus HE wants a man and a woman to bring up a child.
HOMOSEXUALITY IS AGAINST NATURE.
Joe Zammit
Jun 3rd 2010, 16:38
Same-sex couples are living in sin. How can you put an innocent child in a sinful family filth! Homosexuality is grave sin. Homosexual acts are prohibited by God himself by the Sixth Commandment.
A.Attard
Jun 4th 2010, 11:35
first start by giving us a scientific proof that homosexuality is something natural...
thank you
N.Vella
Jun 5th 2010, 00:33
Joe Zammit: Better read some facts before speaking out...it does happen in nature.....and even if *we assume* god planned that it should not happen, but still does...then to me it seems like a not so flawless plan, doesn't it?
Valerie Borg
Jun 3rd 2010, 15:43
@mborg... So are you telling me kids from heterosexual couples never get bullied? There's something to think about? So if we think your way and say we wont have any children because they might get bullied then no one will have any children, gay or straight. We are much more prepared as parents as other parents are because we actually plan having our children not just the procedure of making the child but how will we bring up this child, what we want for our child etc. I'm not saying other parents don't but I know my child will treat others with respect and an open mind and understand the world has different types of families. Our children need to teach some adults a few things about life and how to treat other people. I have a beautiful gift thanks to a man who wanted to help couples like us and i wouldn't change it for the world and I will and do the best for my child no matter what like any other mother would and should.
a. taliana
Jun 3rd 2010, 14:31
What is all this fuss about? Homosexuals will always be part of humankind whether we like it or not. If we are truly Christian we should make it our duty to ensure that they are not discriminated against but allowed their rights just like everyone else, no more no less. And stop referring to what isaid in the bible as if it were a scientific biological text because it is not.
P.S.
This must be one of the longest debates on an article in the TOM. Now, we couldn't possibly imagine that all this fuss would just happen to be an obscene Machiavellan tactic aimed at diverting our attention from the real issues crippling our education, economy, environment and finance. That isn't possible, is it?
Colette Farrugia Bennett
Jun 3rd 2010, 14:25
Whoever thinks that same-sex parenting is damaging to children, should very much start reading recent research, including that carried out by the American Psychological Association
http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/parenting-full.pdf - for starters. More research is available, however other professions has also noted that there is no damage and this includes Social Work associations, Psychiatric Associations, Paediatric Associations. Are these professionals all in the wrong?? NO....Society has evolved, but apparently the Catholic Church and some members of Maltese Society are stuck in archaic times when the natural family was given the sole importance. Technology has brought us at a stage where without harm to children, conception can take place in different forms. Sociology has taught us that there is the social aspect to each and every one of us, and that's where social parenting comes in.
Foster carers, extended families, caregivers (including religious people working in institutional care and professional carers) are all social carers, and these are accepted within the family life structure of Maltese society. Same-sex parents offer the same equal parenting experience, and thus recognition of this social parenthood is a must for the best interest of the child.
Mario Muscat
Jun 3rd 2010, 14:16
Its really sad that in the year 2010 we are still discussing Gay Rights !! Yes they should
GVella
Jun 3rd 2010, 13:29
Is it possible that the best man the PN could find to chair the House Social Affairs Committee is Edwin Vassallo?
Valerie Borg
Jun 3rd 2010, 13:26
@ Albert Fenech. It's true that to have babies you need an egg and sperm but i dont need a man to procreate and bring up my children. Yes i needed the man to be the sperm donor but that is all!!! Yes it's biology but what about all the men out there that leave there pregnant wives/girlfriends etc to never have any contact with their child. Couldn't we just call them sperm donors? You do not need to have sexual intercourse to make a child. By the way we are not trying to change biological nature we are just trying to educate people that we can and have the right to have children too and bring them up healthy and bright in a loving home.
K J Vella
Jun 3rd 2010, 13:25
With so many children being ill-treated, abused and abandoned every day by heterosexual couples, wouldn't it be beautiful to have them relocated to a home where they are loved, nurtured, educated and given a fighting chance to live, to love? If such a house were provided by two men or two women, wouldn't the results be the same. My child benefits from the love both his parents give him and he knows nought else. He does not know the mistakes of his parents nor does he know their successes: all he cares about is that his parents love him. Why shouldn't homosexuals not be given that right? Surely, if they can provide we would all make this sordid world a happier place to live in! Surely, we have created enough prejudice without having to add sexuality to the equation?
Peter Borg
Jun 3rd 2010, 13:24
What an arrogant thing to say, Mr MP. He talks about people and their relationships as problems that the government has to solve. I think its prime time that this country has a radical face lift. We should stop digging holes for ourselves and pretend that we are different from the rest of the world because we uphold the Christian faith. People demand, rightly so, sensible and effective solutions, not sermons. Government has no right to judge, its role is that of legislating and making sure that the people do not suffer in any way. We need to separate the state from the church (or churches/faith) and take the bull by its horns. If a legal framework is in place, then things would run smoother. But if we continue to drag our feet on what is important, things will get even worst. ACT NOW!!!
Scerri S
Jun 3rd 2010, 13:03
Great! Two more people not to vote for, ever! So Dr. Fenech Adami bases all his opinions on his (assumedly exemplary) experience, and Mr. Vassallo doesn't even have a clue about previous studies on the issue, and quite surely assumes there isn't because - snigger - who would think of such alternatives, god forbid!
Daniel Vella
Jun 3rd 2010, 12:59
@Albert Fenech
Who here wants to change biological nature? Homosexual people can and do have biological children. What you imply to say, however, is that homosexual people are not fit to be parents.
On the other hand, infertile heterosexual adults are still able to adopt legally (going against biological nature?), a privilege which is not shared with homosexuals in Malta.
MBorg
Jun 3rd 2010, 12:52
@ C Gatt
What is shocking is trying to change nature. How can you say that children that are brought up by same sex parents are not negatively affected ? A child with two mothers or two fathers will realize from an early age that something is strange and not normal in her/his family. I am sure that the child will want to know why her/ his family is different to that of other children. Young children can be very cruel , do you think that they will not bully this child?
Same sex marriages are a joke. What about that couple of homosexuals who where all over the papers when one of them got pregnant ? Are these the families we want to have in the future ?
C Gatt
Jun 3rd 2010, 15:35
@M Borg.
Really? and your proof is where? Just because you think it is the case does not make it so. Some people thought the earth HAD to be the centre of the universe. It was 'natural' because God created Man and so Man had to be the best thing God created. Ergo the universe must revolve round Man. Me, I'd rather have the science. So please show me the proof of the 'damage' done or don't comment!
Albert Fenech
Jun 3rd 2010, 12:04
How sad to read some comments that there are those who still wish - or believe - they have the power to change the course of biological nature. Men and women procreate - only chemical aberrations and transitions can change this. Whether the parents turn out to be good or bad is a matter of luck, as can happen, and does, with every type of couple. Gay people should and must have their civil rights (employment, right to franchise, equal treatment, equal pay etc) but they cannot change biological nature - PERIOD!!!!
Ramon Casha
Jun 3rd 2010, 13:08
We're talking about parenting here, not breeding. The ability to donate 23 chromosomes towards the creation of a person does not make one a parent, but a sperm/egg donor. Being a parent means far more than that.
Julian Maddalo
Jun 3rd 2010, 14:24
Dear Mr. Fenech, how naive of you to think you yourself are living in accordance with 'the course of nature'. You know, nature never intended humans to sit at a desk for hours, nature never intended humans to wear spectacles or to take medicine to prolong their life. Nature surely never intended humans to damage their natural environment, to wage wars or even to paint, sing, dance and write novels and poetry.
But of course, Mr. Fenech, you perform none of these unnatural lewd acts since you are one with nature. Period.
M. Jones
Jun 3rd 2010, 14:51
@ A Fenech
Oh how kind of you to say that they can have rights, that you grant them so begrudgingly. A couple can be homosexual and hetrosexual and both types have their bad elements and their good ones. You simply cannot generalize.
Joe Fenech
Jun 3rd 2010, 12:00
J Sammut:
Re Clegg
People appologise to shut us up. He just gave Gahan a lollipop!
Tommy Vella
Jun 3rd 2010, 11:44
@ Julian Maddalo
No one is saying that these type of parents do not do a lot of damage to their offspring. Unfortunately one can't legislate, without going against human rights, to deprive alcoholics, people with criminal records, drug-abusers, violent people, parents who work too much and parents who work too little from marrying. I do not agree that parents with little or not education, parents living below the poverty line, parents living in socially-depressed areas can harm their offspring for that sepcific reason.
As an example, I who was teacher for 42 years all over Malta, know many poor people who educate their children in a far more efficient way than others who are very rich.
Julian Maddalo
Jun 3rd 2010, 14:19
Mr. Vella, just as you see such potential legislation as a breach of human rights, legislation preventing same sex couples from forming a family is equally a breach.
I don't think any of the situations I mentioned per se cause problems for children, but they have the potential of causing such problems...just as the situation you mention. That's exactly my point, that one can conjure up thousands of situations potentially causing problems for children.
Yet nonetheless, you only question one specific situation precisely because you don't see it as a human rights issue but as a moral issue in which your moral view of human beings should take precedence over mine.
m borg
Jun 3rd 2010, 11:44
To all those people who are quoting bibles and normality!! I am a female with both straight parents. Born in a very catholic and loving 'normal' family. Since I was a toddler I always played with boys stuff with mum trying in vain to buy me dolls and girl things. Growing up was not easy at all as I used to feel out of place with the girls. My youth was far from happy as in order to be 'normal' I used to go out with boys but always felt this sick feeling inside. Until one day thanks to loads of psycological help I found out that I feel safe and comfortable in the hands of a woman. Do you think it's easy to face all society with this? And do you think it was easy to face my very catholic parents with this? Well no. But now thank God I have been with my fabulous loving partner for 9 years and believe me the love we give in voluntary work, nephews, nieces, animals etc is immense. Therefore please do not judge because you cannot speak until you go through what myself and many many other have gone through.
M Grima
Jun 3rd 2010, 11:41
Anyone heard the news about a 24 year old gay man who committed suicide 3/4 weeks ago. You probably haven't,so I'll tell you.
Born to a Catholic God fearing family,this boy discovered early on life that he was homosexual. He decided to tell his parents who rather than support him, which as Christians they were duty bound to do, they threw him out to fend for himself. They severed all connections with him.They told him that he is not to contact them and told him that he is never to consider himself as their son. The son often tried to approach his parents and each time he was rebutted. A few years later the father fell ill with cancer. Knowing that his father was dying,this young man went to visit his father in hospital and again his mother argued with her son,in front of his father in hospital and had the boy thrown out.Even in near death his parents disowned him. The son soon after committed suicide. His father subsequently died without remorse at his son's death. The mother did not attend her sons funeral.
This happened in Malta in the year 2010. Food for thought?
Eve Bajada
Jun 3rd 2010, 14:00
This is a tragic story ...God Bless this poor boy..... Why is their no one for out there for a person who reaches such a low point in their short life to even contemplate taking it away can one imagine what this poor boy went through . I'm sorry but in my opinion this is appalling .Your child is your child regardless of his sexuality .
Would any mother not love the child/ren that they have been blessed with .
R.I.P Sweet Child .
M. Fenech
Jun 3rd 2010, 14:20
A very sad story indeed, but do you really think that somebody is going to bother? Most people who declare themselves 'religious' (it could be any religion), don't practice what they preach, and they dare to point their finger at others without realising that they have no right to judge anyone, except themselves. Most religions are full of hypocrisy and alot of twisting and turning according to their preachings. We are still very far from an open minded country, not only about the gay issue, but about alot of other things that effect every person's life. And then they come with the usual excuse of TRADITION & CULTURE!!!!!!!! I hope that one day we will be able to call our selves a TRUE, DEMOCRATIC EUROPEAN COUNTRY. Cause I think that we are still very far from that point!!!!
M. Grech
Jun 3rd 2010, 15:37
A very sad story. The church with its influence and hold on the Maltese community has a duty before God to teach tolerance. This is one of the cardinal principles of life and spirituality. Intolerence is the root of anger, hatred and a lot more evil. But again the church here appears to be more about religion than sprituality. Those who spot the difference know what I mean.
C Gatt
Jun 3rd 2010, 11:40
This board needs to be disbanded fast. And this has nothing to do with whether one is pro or anti-gay. It keeps demonstrating time and time again that it does not have the required depth and intelligence for the subject matter. It is shaming parliament and government. In other words its a stupid board. All of you, get out!
PS As a cherry on the cake Mr Vassallo asks the group whether they could provide the committee with any research showing that children brought up by same-sex parents were not affected negatively by the arrangement. Surely it is up to Mr Vassallo to give us proof that such a situation CAN cause harm. or is it no longer a presumption of innocence until proven guilty not the case anymore. And please stop this hogwash of 'natural' family. Just because a child is created by intercourse between man and woman does not for a 'natural ' family make. Truly, truly shocking.
Tommy Vella
Jun 3rd 2010, 11:32
@ D. Vella
" Research far and wide has been conducted with regard to the effect,if any, on children with gay parents. The results were always positive,that is children are not effected at all.In fact in 99% of cases they grow to be well adjusted,more intelligent than average,healthier and acquire a wider knowledge of life around them ,much more so than children from a 'straight' couple."
Could you please quote to what research you are referring?
Paul Xuereb
Jun 3rd 2010, 11:15
Vassallo should go back to saying that he will develop ta' Qala crafts village, something he spent 15 years promising as a Parliamentary Secretary.
D Vella
Jun 3rd 2010, 11:08
Mr Vassallo,
Must everything be handed on a plate to you?. Research far and wide has been conducted with regard to the effect,if any, on children with gay parents. The results were always positive,that is children are not effected at all.In fact in 99% of cases they grow to be well adjusted,more intelligent than average,healthier and acquire a wider knowledge of life around them ,much more so than children from a 'straight' couple. It is also not true to say that children in turn become homosexual,in fact ,by the law of averages,quite the reverse. Gay parents tend to be more understanding and willing to discuss matters with their children,that makes for well adjusted offspring. As for Mr Fenech Adami's comment about role reversal...that comment says more about him than anything else. The problem is with him.Let him take a look inside himself,free his mind and it's surprising what follows.
Ramon Casha
Jun 3rd 2010, 11:07
I think it's time for PN to change its name to Partit Neandertali (Neanderthal Party) to more accurately reflect is image and its MPs.
Julian Maddalo
Jun 3rd 2010, 11:07
There are countless studies showing the psychological and physical damage and distress cause to children under the following circumstances: alcoholic parents, parents with criminal records, drug-abusive parents, violent parents, parents with little or not education, parents living below the poverty line, parents living in socially-depressed areas, parents who work too much and parents who work too litte...and the list can go on forever.
Yet funnily enough we only think its justifiable to question the credentials of same-sex partners wishing to form a family.
Also, Prof. Zammit's comment that he is not ashamed to be seen in the company of homosexual persons is as absolutely ludicrous as me saying I am not ashamed to be seen in the company a woman. But then again, the tone of this Committee debate is in fact one hailing from a time when such company would have deemed to be inappropriate.
Kevin Azzopardi
Jun 3rd 2010, 10:57
From where can we pick up the application forms to make love please? Would appreciate if they are processed before I turn 80. Will we be taxed too?
d.attard
Jun 3rd 2010, 10:40
I agree with M Jones. I find Vassallo's take to be so pre-dickens, reactive and convulsive that it leaves me breathless not knowing which of the many treads hanging out from the tangeled mass of short-circuited twaddle should one first tackle.
Or perhaps, given the endless list of amazing happenings at places such as Enenmalta, ADT, Education Dept, Vat department etc, he was perhaps thinking in terms of boardrooms rather than bedrooms.
But then we seem to be the perfect example for sigmud's theory of the unconscious with so much fret on phallic monuments and bedrooms.
Dominic Chircop
Jun 3rd 2010, 10:29
What is even more troubling is the thought that Edwin Vassallo is turning his grey cells to such matters.
He has already advocated the vagina wardens, aided and abetted by a progressive PL member.
What now ?
Might he harbour the idea of starting to tax us on what happens in the bedroom ? Such as a tax on masturbation ? Like the Bard says, "if taken at the flood, leads on to fortune".
Valerie Borg
Jun 3rd 2010, 10:29
@Maria Fenech. I totallly agree with you. Our child is one of the most brightest and entertaining and happy 2 year old. If only people were really educated and understood when a child is brought up with love, protection and trust it doesn't matter who brings up the child. If my child is homosexual or heterosexual whatever makes her happy is all that matters. Just because her parents are homosexual doesn't mean she will be. My parents were heterosexual so why didn't i come out heterosexual???
Joe Fenech
Jun 3rd 2010, 10:08
People appologise to shut us up. He just gave Gahan a lollipop!
M. Jones
Jun 3rd 2010, 10:07
The PN's stance is wrong on so many levels that I do not know where to begin.
1. No, definitely, what happens in our private homes is not the government's/state's business, unless it is criminal.
2. The fact they they distinguish between male and female roles in a family, is symptomatic of conservative christian democratic parties. Gender stereotyping at its vilest.
3. The comment that a family is only a family when one procreates, would exclude any union in which children are not born either due to infertility or through the couples choice. Nice.
I had to re-check the year of this issue to confirm that we are not living in the 1930's in Italy under Mussolini.
Maria Fenech
Jun 3rd 2010, 10:07
Just how narrow-minded are we in this day and age? You're talking about natural parents. Does that mean if I find a child abandoned without parents and I take him in I can't become his family? Family ist no longer a mother & a father but family was to me always depicted to the people that are closest to me and whom I can trust.
I would even consider my best friends to be family because they're always there. As long as these homosexuals love their child there shouldn't be a problem. They can be as much of a family to the child like a "male and female" can. And in some case even more because they can choose wether they want a child or not. In dif.-sex cases it can be accidental and they don't really want a child, or maybe it was earlier than they had planned. I read more cases about child abuse when it comes to "normal" couples. I can't recall reading a case where a child had problems and it was a same-sex couples fault. In the end it comes all down to the fact that we are still discriminating and haven't learned our lesson.
Valerie Borg
Jun 3rd 2010, 10:06
So what the government is saying is that gay couples rearing children are not seen as a family? So does this mean the biological parent is a single parent? You would think this is so however when a single parent (in a homosexual relationship) applies for single parent payment to assist with unemployment issues (seeing legally the biological parent is seen as a single mother) the government well the director of social security decides to see the couple as a family and declines the application, yet if we are seen as a family why is it that the partner that is working can't choose the family tax bracket???? When the government wants money it will do whatever it can but when someone is asking for real honest assistance the government doesn't help. You may all say it's not fare but when i can't marry the love of my life and my partner is not our child legal parent what would you do? We will continue to fight discrimnation. I hope people just open their eyes and see we are humans. I dont want to know what the minister does in his bedroom why should he knowwhat i do in mine?
Valerie Borg
Jun 3rd 2010, 10:02
So what the government is saying is that gay couples rearing children are not seen as a family? So does this mean the biological parent is a single parent? You would think this is so however when a single parent (in a homosexual relationship) applies for single parent payment to assist with unemployment issues (seeing legally the biological parent is seen as a single mother) the government well the director of social security decides to see the couple as a family and declines the application, yet if we are seen as a family why is it that the partner that is working can't choose the family tax bracket???? When the government wants money it will do whatever it can but when someone is asking for real honest assistance the government doesn't help. You may all say it's not fare but when i can't marry the love of my life and my partner is not our child legal parent what would you do? We will continue to fight discrimnation. I hope people just open their eyes and see we are humans. I dont want to know what the minister does in his bedroom why should he knowwhat i do in mine?
Dominic Chircop
Jun 3rd 2010, 10:00
The Ghurch, especially under Benedict XVI, frowns upon such relatioships. And this is an understatement.
No wonder GonziPN follows suit. It has become the Curia Party, and excludes the rest !
And this not only on this topic. Be it divorce, cohabitation, and similar things, the Curia Party never counters the fundamentalist catholics.
william sciberras
Jun 3rd 2010, 09:42
Finally someone is taking charge..... we would like to change the curtains in the bedroom but cannot decide on the style and the colour....... any advice please, is there a one stop shop we could go to.... pls help
J Sammut
Jun 3rd 2010, 09:26
This is precisely what Nick Clegg was referring in comparing Britain to Malta. It seems that he shouldn't have apologised after all as he was very clearly right.
James Dimech
Jun 3rd 2010, 09:20
Muscat thinks he is so cool - then ironically when things go wrong in the bedroom his party advocates policies which turn to your hard earned taxes in order to solve the disasters of the irresponsible people involved.
PL is the champion of single mothers benefits, social housing and a feast of other social benefits - all paid out of your own pocket. Typically the case of hobz il-biezel kielu l-ghazzien.
Eric Gahn
Jun 3rd 2010, 10:07
You are mixing things up. Single mothers and same sex issues are different things. They are only the same because because a homosexual wanting to have a child to raise with her partner, in this hypocrite christian conservaticve society cannot do other than declare herself a single mother when she would gladly say that her partner is the other parent. Nista nassigurak li m'hemm l-ebda ntenzjoni li jigdmulek xi bicca hobz.
Aleksandar Dimitrijevic
Jun 3rd 2010, 09:20
"He also asked the group whether they could provide the committee with any research showing that children brought up by same-sex parents were not affected negatively by the arrangement."
http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/parenting-full.pdf
Research spaning over 25 years, conducted by American Psychological Association.
Goes into lot of details, but this is their conclusion:
"In summary, there is no evidence to suggest that lesbian women or gay men are unfit to be parents or that psychosocial development among children of lesbian women or gay men is compromised relative to that among offspring of heterosexual parents. Not a single study has found children of lesbian or gay parents to be disadvantaged in any significant respect
relative to children of heterosexual parents. Indeed, the evidence to date suggests that home environments"
Hope this is enough for Mr. Vassallo :)
provided by lesbian and gay parents are as
likely as those provided by heterosexual parents to
support and enable children's psychosocial growth.
Tommy Lee
Jun 3rd 2010, 09:09
This is the way of the world today.
But Jesus Christ said he was no part of this world and neither should his followers be.
John 15:18 "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 15:19: If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.
The Bible is quite clear regarding Homosexuality and this behaviour and Christianity are not compatible.Let this world wallow in debauchery but stand firm in the faith.
Joseph Camilleri
Jun 3rd 2010, 09:56
Thankfully we have no desire to emulate the Taliban in Malta.
M.Brincat
Jun 3rd 2010, 10:45
Why quote Jesus when you can quote much much more recent scientific studies?
Keep Jesus at Church.
Ramon Casha
Jun 3rd 2010, 11:12
The Bible prohibits male-male sex in the same chapter where it prohibits eating oysters, wearing clothes of mixed materials, doing any work on Saturday etc. Do you follow all those laws?
Besides, this is not the church we're talking about, it's the government... isn't it?
Tommy Lee
Jun 3rd 2010, 11:47
The point I am making quite clearly is that Christianity and homosexuality are not compatible.
What the world decides is wrong or right is up to the world but Christ and his true followers have no part in it.
Mark Grech
Jun 3rd 2010, 15:23
I thought God created all of mankind, including homosexuals. That rather contradicts your conclusion that homosexuality and Christianity are incompatible.
Joe E Galea
Jun 4th 2010, 10:37
Dear Tommy Theologist Lee,
Since as you said Jesus and homosexuality are not compatible and that homosexuals are an eberrationa and bla bla bla. Can you tell me why God has created homosexuals in the first place? Aren't we taught that God is perfect and he creates human beings to HIS image? So homosexuals to whose image are they created? I am a bit confused here, this theology is a bit talibanically confusing. MMMM I can picture Jesus saying to a homosexual who goes infront of Him after he dies...hehe you gay burn in Hell.:)
Eric Gahn
Jun 3rd 2010, 09:08
cont>>>
Last but not least, there is an idea floating around that because homosexuals just fornicate (not sleep) around and therefore are never really a solid couple therefore not able to offer an environment where to bring up a child. It seems hard to think that a homosexual couple is as much a couple as a 'normal' couple. They go to the movies together, pass compliments to each other, do little sweet nutins, argue, make up, buy gifts for each other on birthdays.....and horror most horrendous...are loyal to each other. Allowing marriage would allow them a status. Denyng them this is denying them a basic human, not just civil, right (Artcile 16).
Joe Fenech
Jun 3rd 2010, 09:05
The government DOES NOT have to solve any problems. It's the people who have to deal with their own .... !
Teenage mums, single mums....not a penny more than a normal mum would get and no council flats!
L Cremona
Jun 3rd 2010, 08:59
How sad that in today's world we are not able to 'live and let live'.....family's come in all forms, and who's to say/judge that a natural, conventional, family (that may have it's own turmoil and difficulties) is better than a somewhat 'unconventional' family structure.
Many gay couples go to great lengths to be blessed with children and , having friends who have been fortunate enough to do so, I can say that they bring up their children no differently than I bring up my own.
Families are evolving; rather than concentrate on the members in the family, more focus should be placed on the care, love, support and values that every child needs!
Joe Zammit
Jun 3rd 2010, 16:30
L. Cremona, 'live and let live' apply it with all your might against abortion. The child in its mother's womb is a human being independent of its mother. So, well said, let the mother bearing a child in her womb 'LIVE AND LET LIVE'!
Eric Gahn
Jun 3rd 2010, 08:59
How pompous and close minded to say that a gay couple cannot form a family because there is no clear outline of who is the father and mother.
1) A 'father' and 'mother' are better defined as 'male' and 'female' and thier only purpose is to procreate. 2 individuals of the same sex cannot make a child. That's Biology 101 (to date).
2) Once a child is born, being raised by a homosexual or a heterosexual couple makes no difference. Nowadays there are many documented cases that same-sex parent children are not only NOT 'damaged' but have a far better understanding of relationships than thier peers. I won't go into detail here but readers can Google up the info/data/cases easily.
3) Same sex couple adoptions. Why not? If they prove that they can give a loving home to a child, why not? And why are they not married? Because they are a homosexual couple. Catch-22. Another point sometime mentioned is that a homosexual couple will 'pollute through exposure' the child's mind turning them to homosexuals. So why are homosexuals so? Afterall they were very likely 'polluted through exposure' to heterosexuality by thier parents.
cont>>>>
Joe Zammit
Jun 3rd 2010, 16:27
Not only God who knows more than you, but also nature itself contradicts what you have said.
Alfred Gatt
Jun 3rd 2010, 08:54
The natural family is made up of a man and a woman and when there are children, these form one whole unit. The other types of living together are relationships which are totally different from the natural family. Children can grow up in a much healthier atmosphere with their natural parents, as the parents have different but complentary roles, but which are necessary for the wholesome growth of the children. Obviously, it must not be forgotten that problems arise in families, but this does not diminish the importance of the family. Society needs the family if it wants to survive. A look of what is happening worldwide is sufficient proof of this necessity.
M.Cassar
Jun 3rd 2010, 08:50
Every child has the right to a safe and happy childhood which includes the normallity of being raised by a couple made up of a male and a female (after all these represent the sperm and the ovum which is the DNA of every individual). Two years ago, the EU commission on childrens' rights has made it almost 'illegal' for children to be raised by nuns and priests in church institutions. Obviously Malta is lagging behind in this regard, as in other legislation which has to to with children and the traditional family.
In the meantime Gay and Lesbian groups keep pressing for what they percieve as normal.
I'm afraid this will turn out to be another case where lacking local legislature on these important issues, EU commissions will have to step in and impose the necessary laws!
Times have really changed! I remember Mr.Mintoff saying "'Private' fil-kamra tas-sodda biss.." (this was about the public transport saga)
Joe Grima
Jun 3rd 2010, 08:29
What happens in the bedroom is, up to a point, the government's business, because it often had to solve problems caused there, the chairman of the House Social Affairs Committee, Edwin Vassallo said.
This must be the Nationalist Government's theatre of the abysmally absurd. Hallina Edwin! Int baqa issa biex tiggojnja l'clowns fic cirklu fuq il bankijiet tal gvern
M. Fenech
Jun 3rd 2010, 14:48
Well said Mr. Joe Grima. L-ewwel ihallu n-nies jghamlu t-tfal bl'adocc, u mbaghad jghidulna li x'jigri fil-kamra tas-sodda hija bicca tal-gvern! Ghax ma jedukawx u jifthu l'imhuh, mhux kulhadd jghamel it-tfal u wara jridu jerdghu minn fuq il-gvern biex irabbuhom. Ma nahsibx li fiz-zminijiet tal-lum, ghad hawn min jippretendi li kull darba li ragel u mara jkollhom x'jaqsmu, irrid jirrizulta fi tfal!!! Dan ukoll kien parti mit-taghlim li kien hawn, u min ma jobdix imur L'INFERN! Pero,nahseb li l'infern qieghed hawn b'dawn ic-certu stqarrijiet!!!!!!