Church abuse cases: Mgr Scicluna speaks on need to 'amputate' to heal'
The Church 'may have to amputate to heal' the Vatican's top prosecutor in sex abuse cases by priests, Mgr Charles Scicluna, has warned.
Speaking in St Peter's Basilica during a Mass of reparation for abuse committed by priests, and for healing within the church, Mgr Scicluna said that when the innocence of children was trampled upon, broken, sullied, abused, and destroyed, then "the earth becomes arid and the whole world sad."
In a speech given wide publicity in the Catholic media, Mgr Scicluna said that if a member of the church was an "occasion of sin," then there was no other choice but to cut this tie.
Mgr Scicluna is the Promoter of Justice in the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and worked closely with Cardinal Ratzinger, today Pope Benedict XVI.
He accompanied the Pope on his visit to Malta, when the Pope had an unplanned meeting with victims of child abuse.
National Catholic Reporter said that Mgr Scicluna is widely seen as the architect of the more aggressive approach to the crisis which emerged in the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith after 2001.
In his homily this morning, Mgr Scicluna spoke on the relationship between Jesus and children, saying that the church had always had a special care and solicitude for children and the weak.
Quoting St. Gregory the Great, Mgr Scicluna suggested that sex abuse sins were especially heinous when committed by priests.
"After having taken a profession of holiness, anyone who destroys others through words or deed would have been better off if their misdeeds had caused them to die in secular dress, rather than, through their holy office, being imposed as an example for others in their sins. Without doubt, if they had fallen all by themselves, their suffering in Hell would be easier to bear."
The remedy to such scandals offered by God as the "Divine Surgeon," according to Mgr Scicluna, was to "cut out [disease] in order to heal," and to "amputate in order to restore health."
Beyond such drastic measures, Mgr Scicluna also proposed the "preventive medicine" of solid formation for future priests, calling on them to be on fire with the faith, making them salt and light for the world.
http://ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/vaticans-sex-abuse-prosecutor-says-church-must-amputate-heal
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Dr Francis Saliba
Jun 1st 2010, 17:23
@RaySacco
Your profusion of interrogation and exclamation marks are no substitute for solid arguments and facts.
The statement that certain crimes, including sexual offences inside a private house, require reporting before the police can proceed is not an allegation according to me – it is the law of the land. Instead of sticking your fingers to the keyboard you would be better employed checking you wild assertions before submitting them.
I do not waste my time on wild goose chases suggested by you – not when cases against clergymen are actually before the criminal court of law at this very moment!
Steve Pace
Jun 1st 2010, 15:37
@Frances Saliba - " The compulsory reporting of these cases by anyone who learns about them raises tough and insuperable problems . A parent of an abused child could be obliged to report a spouse or some other near relative irrespective of the desire to forgive, to try and save a marriage, to avoid the disruption of family relationships and to preserve the family good name."
So long as there is desire to forgive, save a marriage or avoid disruption of a family and perhaps preserve the family's good name why should the abuse be reported.. ?
Why should the family pay a high price for one Victim !
Logic at its best !
Dr Francis Saliba
Jun 1st 2010, 16:58
@StevePace.
I hope you understand your own question because I do not understand it or its relevance.
It should be obvious that my references to the law and the Church Response Team refer to Malta, not to Boston, not to anywhere else. Our laws grant the undoubted right to lodge a report with the police for corruption of minors and this could lead to a prosecution in our criminal court if a prima facie exists. The decision to avail themselves of this facility lies with the victim, relatives, guardians and witnesses. That applies equally whether the accused is a layman or a clergyman. There are pending cases to prove it.
Dr Francis Saliba
May 31st 2010, 22:37
@CharlesCaruana
The criminal law quoted by you applies in all cases of corruption of minors by anybody – not just priests – and it also applies to whoever would be in a position to report such cases to the Police – not just bishops.
The compulsory reporting of these cases by anyone who learns about them raises tough and insuperable problems. A parent of an abused child could be obliged to report a spouse or some other near relative irrespective of the desire to forgive, to try and save a marriage, to avoid the disruption of family relationships and to preserve the family good name. It might be used to force the family doctor to report cases covered by professional secrecy, against the family’s wishes and against his sound clinical judgment not to aggravate the psychiatric problems to the young victim and relatives.
If you discriminate against priests and restrict this reporting obligation to the Church authorities then your motive becomes immediately suspect as obviously intended to harm the Church rather than any honest desire to protect the victim, the family and society. Moreover the possibility of a successful prosecution with an unco-opeative family would be zero.
Steve Pace
May 31st 2010, 16:52
@Joe Zammit - " Thank God, to date we have no Maltese paedophile priest. Thank God, ....."
And yet again Joe Zammit's Mega blunders deserve to be noted with a link...
http://www.bishop-accountability.org/news2003_07_12/2003_10_26_Schembri_PriestCharged.htm
Joe... Please , please check things before putting pen to paper.....
Steve Pace
May 31st 2010, 16:42
and for the record here is the link .....
http://www.independent.com.mt/news.asp?newsitemid=106535
Steve Pace
May 31st 2010, 16:38
Whilst hearing a political program on Radio 101 , a politician , Jesmond Mugliett was saying that Dolores Cristina has suggested that a law making reporting of abuse a must . This suggestion was made in light of the recent church scandals and so that no priest or anyone will have any more immunity or protection by any institution or organization.
Dr Francis Saliba
May 31st 2010, 20:20
It is simply not true that anyone, and that includes priests, has any "immunity" from being prosecuted for corruption of minors. All it takes is a report lodged with the police by the victim, the relatives or other material witnesses in possession of admissible evidence, not uncorroborated hearsay evidence. Any "immunity" would reasonably be be laid at the door of those who choose freely not to lodge this report. The Church and its Response Team do not obstruct this process - in fact they recommend that the victims seek legal advice. The Church applies ecclesiastic punitive measures within its powers, in addition to - not in substitution for - punishments imposed by the Criminal Court. It is not difficult to guess the hidden reason for unjustly saddling the Church with responsibility for the inaction of others much better placed to help the police.
ray sacco
May 31st 2010, 22:04
@dr.francis saliba:
clergy members accused of abusing children were brought in front of the response team. why? for a promotion? for a reward? they were arraigned infront of this team because they were ACCUSED of child abuse! so why weren't they arraigned infront of a judge in the maltese courts? because reports and accusations of child molesting are refered to this response team under the agreement of 1999 . check the sights proposed by mr. pace below and other articles from the times and other sites. all you have to do is type 'catholic church response team' on google search and you will get all your answers to stop your frantic defence of the way these monsters have been hidden and protected!
Steve Pace
Jun 1st 2010, 15:41
A judge yesterday rejected the argument of the Archdiocese of Boston that hundreds of sexual abuse lawsuits against the church should be dismissed because they violate the First Amendment's separation of church and state.
Superior Court Judge Constance M. Sweeney ruled that the lawsuits should proceed toward trial because the cases will not delve into religious principles, such as church doctrine, but the handling of allegedly abusive priests by their superiors.
To accept the church's argument, Sweeney wrote, would be akin to granting the church blanket immunity from civil lawsuits.
Source http://www.boston.com/globe/spotlight/abuse/print4/022003_suits.htm
no further comment is needed .
Peter Grech
May 31st 2010, 11:40
The issue at hand is paedophiles in whatever guise. I had the misfortune of being abused when I was about 8 years. My parents did not even realise, it would not even cross there mind. The reality is that the system to protect our children does not work. We are blaming the church which has failed us but I honestly feel that the police will fail as well at this. I am sure that they will do there best, but it is within a system which is not designed to protect the alleged victim, and in fairness the person being accused (possibly wrongly). What everyone must understand that for the victim there is an emotional costs, and the last thing I would want (speaking for myself only) is to keep on dragging and trying to explain. Justice I would like, but what I want is to be healed..... I have forgiven.... but I can't forget... I would like to move on..., so for all the valuable criticism and acceptance of responsibility what I do not yet see is how is the victim protected and healed and for this not to happen again.
ray sacco
May 30th 2010, 23:14
@joe zammit:
so according to you, if a murder is committed, the police cannot investigate because the victim has to file a report!!!!!!!! and, if the ploice recieve an anonymous phone call reporting a crime, they cannot investigate because it has to be the victim to report!!!!!!!!!!! hallina! the police are the law and order of the country and have the right and duty to investigate whenever and wherever a crime is suspected of being committed and bring to justice those suspected of executing the crime. the paedophile cases within the catholic church were not investigated because an agreement between government and church states that clergy members breaking the law will be brought in front of the church's response team and not the country's justice.
Dr Francis Saliba
May 31st 2010, 06:57
" ... an agreement between government and church states that clergy members breaking the law will be brought in front of the church's response team and not the country's justice".(RaySacco)
Are you speaking truthfully? It is true that there are cases where the police can act "ex officio" without a report being lodged with them and there are others were a complaint is necessary - for obvious reasons. That is very different from postulating some underhanded agreement between the secular and ecclesiatic authorities. You have made a very serious allegation. Prove it!
ray sacco
May 31st 2010, 08:43
@dr.francis saliba:
prove what?????? check it out yourself dott. agreement between catholic church and government in 1999 states full immunity to cases involving clergy members! meaning that on this saintly island all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others!
David Caruana
May 31st 2010, 10:37
@ Francis Saliba
"However, he said the judge presiding over the response team in such cases informs the alleged victims of their right to follow their case civilly."
http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20100331/local/child-abuse-allegations-made-against-45-maltese-priests-in-11-years
If the Church really cares for these abused victims, then the judge has the duty to report these cases himself to the police and not just inform the victims!
Dr Francis Saliba
May 31st 2010, 13:03
@DavidCaruana
Balderdash! The Church Response Team is actually prevented from lodging a report itself - especially so if the victim/relatives refuse to take the advice to do the reporting directly to the police. The family would have its reasons for doing so. The Response Team would be morally and legally wrong to usurp the family's right to lodge a report or to refrain from doing so. A successful investigation by the police would have no chance of success without the victims' corroboration of the any report based on hearsay "evidence".
@RaySacco
I asked you plainly you to "prove" your wild allegation that there exists "an agreement between government and church that states that clergy members breaking the law will be brought in front of the church's response team and not the country's justice". It is absolutely not true that "clergy members" enjoy any "full immunity" from the law. Any victim of child abuse can bring a case before the civil courts if the abuse is carried out in private and the police can even prosecute ex officio if the crime happens in a public place.You do not have the faintest idea of what you are talking about.
ray sacco
May 31st 2010, 21:41
@dr.francis saliba:
so, according to you, if an abuse of a child happens in a private house and not in a public place, the police have no authority to investigate or prosecute?????????? and i suppose you believe you have the slightest idea of what you're talking about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! did you or did you not check about the agreement on the response team, dottore? the priests involved might need a defence lawyer!
ray sacco
May 30th 2010, 21:35
@joe zammit:
mr.zammit, you sound like an scratched record playing on an old gramaphone stuck on the same vinel cord, repeating ad nausea..........'there is no maltese paedophile priest'. do you really think that you can convince anyone with your repetitive brain washed comments? the catholic church has admitted to it's sins from within. it has apologised to all the victims. yet you seem to be living in some other planet and still ignore the facts! the man on the street wants justice!
Joe Zammit
May 30th 2010, 16:37
Par. 1035 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church states:
"The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire." The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs."
Joe Zammit
May 30th 2010, 14:34
The fire of hell is symbolical to depict eternal suffering for those who die in the state of sin. The punishment is not the same for everyone. It depends on the gravity of one's sins. The more sins you have the greater the suffering. After all, our simple intellingence ALSO points this to us. There is no need to have a high IQ to understand it.
Joe Grima
May 30th 2010, 14:21
I think it was Cardinal Bagnasco who said yesterday that for priests who transgress the fires of hell will be even more painful. I did not know that the fires of hell could be turned up and down according to the recipient. Very much like my air conditioner at home. Interesting baloney! Silliness is now emerging from the very top as the church doesn't know what to say next in its own defence when charges are levelled against its own.The Maltese church has chosen attack as its form of defence. The attack is currently on separated couples. Little do the Bishops know how useless their utterings are as they fall on ears that have been plugged for decades against the medieval way of life advocated by the catiolic church, wholly out of synch with the achievements of mankind in every known sphere
Joe Zammit
May 30th 2010, 14:38
Joe Grima, today, the feast of the Holy Trinity, thousands of Maltese and Gozitan children have made their First Holy Communion. These children amount to 96% of all their peer group. They have all listened to the teaching of Christ through his one Catholic Church. Their parents too followed the call made to them by Christ through his Church. This augurs well for the future of the Catholic Church in Malta and Gozo till the end of time.
William P Flynn
May 30th 2010, 15:22
Unbelievably, even when Ratzinger and now Scicluna clearly spell out that bishops must report paedophiles to the police there is still the apologist below saying only the victim can report. In one case of the Irish child rapist priest Oliver O'Grady in America, the victim was a 9 month old baby. Lots of 6 and 8 year olds as well see:
(Do not click on this if you are faint hearted. Oliver O'Grady says it in his own words)
http://theweek.com/article/index/201852/5_most_damning_films_about_Catholic_child_abuse
This is one time when I regret there is no hell.
charles caruana
May 30th 2010, 15:41
Yes Mr Grima, as I said in another post, about the fires of hell, I'd rather take the word of Christ and his saints than that of someone who knows how to fiddle with his airconditioner at home. You see, if there is no afterlife and no hell, neither you nor I would be surprised, because we simply would not be. But if there is a hell, I would still not be surprised, but you would be in for the surprise of your life. But all this is 'interesting baloney' isn't it, so you might just as well go on playing with your airconditioner - watch out for the electicity bill though!
ray sacco
May 30th 2010, 21:49
@charles caruana:
so is that the reason why you believe in the catholic religion? so that your mind can be at ease when you die? cause let's be sincere, none of us knows for sure or have any proof of any thing after life! please do tell me if you have any. cause you can be right after all, but there is equal percentage that you can be wrong about heaven, hell, porgatory and limbo!!!!!!!!! oh sorry, i forgot limbo had to close down!
Dr Francis Saliba
May 31st 2010, 07:15
@WilliamPFlynn
" ..... Unbelievably, even when Ratzinger and now Scicluna clearly spell out that bishops must report paedophiles to the police there is still the apologist below saying only the victim can report. ...".(WilliamPFlynn)
That is your unreliable and self-serving paraphrasis. Active co-operation between Church and State to tackle the problem is not identical with H.H. the Pope instructing bishops to report all cases of paedophilia known to them to the police.
You are imitating the devil when, as the proverb says, he quotes the scripture to attain his evil purpose. Your habitual deprecatory reference to H.H. the Pope as "Ratzinger" proves that point.
William P Flynn
May 31st 2010, 09:56
@DrSaliba
Ratzinger (that's his name, the other one is a stage name) has been taken on his word that's what he meant and the world press is giving him time to show some action.
I know bishops in Ireland, England, Germany, USA, Australia, and Canada are saying it's now church policy to report all paedophile priests there. There are many video clips of bishops spelling it out to reporters saying they will refer all paedophile priests to police. Should I not believe what bishops say on video and believe you?
I know my sources are reliable and I don't have to prove or justify anything to you and any other apologists. I found my information on the websites of some of the best newspapers and media organizations on earth. I don't educate or help apologists.
In fact if you don't show some logic I will refuse to reply to or debate with you. You are just not intelligent enough to see the obvious as your mind is shut airtight.
Stay tuned Vatican correspondents are saying Scicluna paved the way yesterday and are expecting Ratzinger to say more.
charles caruana
May 31st 2010, 11:15
@Ray Saccoo
You seem to be a careless reader of my posts. Let me repeat for the third time: about death and the afterlife I’d rather take the word of Christ than yours or any other atheist I think He is somewhat more credible. Is that clear enough for you?
charles caruana
May 31st 2010, 13:56
Even the "devil" must be given his due! For a change, Mr Flynn, I believe you are right. The latest Vatican instructions oblige bishops to report a known case of priestly paedophilia to the civil authorities. The problem is that, as criminal law now stands in Malta, the police cannot proceed without the express permission of the victim and or his legal guardians, even after the bishops have reported the case. It's about time the legislators amended the law to make sure that priest-criminals get what they deserve, while fully respecting the rights and dignity of the victims.
Dr Francis Saliba
May 31st 2010, 13:56
@WilliamFlynn
Insulting the head of the Catholic Church by your attempt to degrade him to the status of a stage performer (i.e. H.H. Pope Benedict "is only a stage name") does not add any weight to your comments and to your expressed opinion. It only reduces your credibility in the eyes of your readers by exposing your level of courteous and civil behaviour.
Steve Pace
May 31st 2010, 16:59
William Flynn - "This is one time when I regret there is no hell. " ... If there ain't one ... He will create one for them ;)
Joe Zammit
May 30th 2010, 13:14
Paedophilia crimes can be taken cognizance of by the police ONLY if the victim lodges a complaint. It's useless for the Church, and for that matter any other person, to report. Unless the victim places his complaint with the police, the police cannot take a criminal action. So the alleged cover-up by the Church is only raised as an excuse.
The victim has the right as well not to contact the police. He or she can forgive. And no one can force him or her to take criminal actions. He or she is entitled to his or her free will!
Mary Smith
May 31st 2010, 05:28
Just in case you forgot, the victims were young children who were to scared to tell anyone for years and to boot, many were scared with hellfire by their priestly abusers if they ever told anyone.
And where did you get your preposterous idea that a complaint has to be lodged before the Police can investigate a crme? With that logic, nobody would ever be tried for murder for the victims surely will never complain. Or is this some secret deal struck with Law enforcement in each country and the Vatican? That is the only conclusion that one can come to since these crimes had been going on for years and in many different countries.
In my opinion, the Church has lost all credibility and claims to moral superioity. It is about time that the Church came clean, admit to its deceitful sham perpetrated on Humanity and tell us it was all one big lie, namely that there is no heaven or hell or life after death and after 2,000 tortorous years, finally disband.
Dr Francis Saliba
May 31st 2010, 13:20
@MarySmith
What is truly "preposterous" is your denial that there are crimes that the police have to prosecute "ex officio" but there are others that absolutely require the prior lodging of a complaint. Sexual offences committed in private places, without access to the general public, fall in the latter category. Check your facts please to avoid making dogmatic statements that can be easily proved to be ridiculous lies.
Joe Zammit
May 30th 2010, 13:08
The great majority of priests are exemplary, hard working and beneficial to one and all. We need Catholic priests, and please God we shall continue to have them.
Today, the Feast of Holy Trinity, thousands of children have made their first Holy Communion. Some of these will one day become priests as well. Their parents and relatives have done their utmost to prepare their children to receive Jesus for the first time.
These children amount to 96% of all their peer children in Malta and Gozo. This augurs well to have Malta and Gozo continue to be Catholic until the end of time.
ray sacco
May 30th 2010, 23:20
@joe zammit:
i agree, the majority of priests are examplary, but with the catholic church"s attitude of hiding and protecting the perverted minority, those same examplary majority are being put under the same dark shadow!
Louise Vella
May 30th 2010, 12:49
Truth is crimes against children have been committed by priest child molesters and any Catholics, the Vatican and bishops included, who were aware of such crimes and did not/do not act to report them to the police, brings shame on us all. We can take no comfort from the fact that only a small percentage of priests committed such crimes – the impact of their sinful acts is very large – their actions, harmed the lives of their victims and their families.
The Church, like any other worldly institution, defends itself as best it can. Those higher up are more important than those lower down. And who can be lower than children, especially if they are orphans or come from an under-privileged background? We never hear of children of lawyers and ministers being abused. As far as PR goes, the Church's first instinct is to cover up. The second is to deny. The third is to minimize. The fourth is to accept grudgingly and tearfully.
Joe Zammit
May 30th 2010, 14:28
Thank God, to date we have no Maltese paedophile priest. Thank God, in the world there are 400,000 Catholic priests and of these only 0.075% are alleged to be paedophile. Let us be normal and let our mind work logically and think of those great thousands of Catholic priests who serve humanity in its both spiritual and material needs: churches, schools, hospitals, old people's homes, drug addicts, homeless, etc, etc, etc.
v mercieca
May 30th 2010, 12:36
@Brian Crocker
The small percentage of wrong doers amongst the Catholic priests does not justify the amputation of the whole church from the world.
See what good the Catholic Church has done and is doing in various countries by running schools, hospitals, orphanages, old people homes and others; and giving other humanitarian aid and service.
Should we destroy the human race because a few are crooks, thieves and criminals in one way or another?
William P Flynn
May 30th 2010, 15:34
You insult the work and dedication of millions of good people who do good works when you say they wouldn't do it if the church wasn't around. There are selfless people like that who have never heard of Catholicism. They are just good people.
The Vatican uses the good works of good people who happen to be Catholic to enrich and promote its worldly power. The Holy See is an abusive, self centred, for profit system.
It has done untold damage throughout its history.
Brian Crocker
May 30th 2010, 11:57
May be it would be better if the Catholic Church
was amputated from the world
Charles Sammut
May 30th 2010, 11:26
Is this what the Church has to off its victims, masses and prayers?
"I will pray for you." sounds so hollow. Where will prayer get you? Praying is a defeatist or deceptive act, depending on which side you are on. More so when people have been promised masses and prayers for the repose of their souls in return for property, jewellery and money. How do you think a certain Society grabbed a huge tract of land on the outskirts of Mosta to build a 'retreat house'? Its previous owner was one of the richest men on the island and that is why he was targeted for 'special treatment' by those masters of persuasion when his days were drawing to an end.
Mgr Scicluna, it is not a case for selctive amputation. The whole body is rotten.
v mercieca
May 30th 2010, 12:41
Mr Sammut
I do not know which piece of land you are referring to, but if it is the same one I have in mine, it was not grabbed. That rich man had an ONLY son and this son joined a religious order and the rich man donated the land to the order in which his son was a member.
William P Flynn
May 30th 2010, 10:53
I wonder what the usual apologists are thinking now. The ones who have been glossing over these reprehensible crimes telling us we're all sinners, throw the first stone blah, blah, blah.
What about that lovely man, the judge of the Curia secret court of enquiry. Wonder what he's thinking now.
Malta should now also help Mgr Scicluna by establishing a Truth Commission into Priest Rape and encourage people in Malta who were and still are raped as children to come forward.
Are the police unleashed?
Joe Zammit
May 30th 2010, 13:59
To date there is no Maltese paedophile priest. We thank the great thousands of Catholic priests in the whole world for their love, hard work and works of mercy they do with millions of people. While you are dying, William, you will need a Catholic priest. Please, remember what I am telling you NOW!
wally vella-zarb
May 30th 2010, 14:21
Mr Zammit, would you please desist with your puerile attempts to browbeat people who do not share your beliefs and who have shaken off the shackles of the conditioning that they were subjected to as little children. How do you know what Mr Flynn will need at his moment of death? Why are you so obsessed with other people's death? Have YOU ever been close to death? Not that it is any concern of yours, I have been VERY close; not once but three times so far. I assure you that my greatest concern was that i received the best medical attention that was available. Catholic priests did not come into the picture at all!
William P Flynn
May 30th 2010, 14:59
Mr Zammit
Here's the exposure of one Maltese Gozitan paedophile priest:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/21/us/21priest.html
In today’s article it says victims. Can there be child rape victims without rapists?
You can repeat your moronic statement 1000 times, it will still be wrong.
How dare you insult me by saying I WILL need a Catholic priest. There is not a snowflake's hope in hell of that happening. If you insist I will put a fatwa on you.
On your death bed you WILL crave to read the last chapter of "God is not great" and "The God Delusion". You will be screaming for those two books by atheists and regret you didn't memorize them while you had time.
charles caruana
May 30th 2010, 15:21
@wally vella-zarb
How can adult and convinced atheists ‘who have shaken off the shackles of the conditioning that they were subjected to as little children’ be browbeaten by the mention of death and the afterlife if the former is simply a natural phenomenon and the latter non-existent?
Your concern about Mr Flynn being browbeaten is totally misplaced, and you should not generalize from your close encounters with death. After all, a close encounter with death is very different from dying, and you are as much ‘in the dark’ about the post-mortem condition as any atheist. That is why you should not be concerned, no?
wally vella-zarb
May 30th 2010, 16:12
@ Charles Caruana
Had you carefully read what I wrote in my comment you would have understood that I described Joe Zammit's attempts at browbeating as puerile. I have absolutely no doubts that Mr Flynn will not be intimidated or scared by Zammit's repeating his cryptic admonition ad nauseam. Zammit seems to be scared at what he might find in HIS 'afterlife'. I myself am not, for the simple reason that I do not believe that such a thing exists. Meanwhile, far from being 'concerned' - as you chose to put it - I enjoy life, to the best of my ability, while it lasts. Whether it ends as soon as I click on 'Submit' or in thirty years' time has no importance for me.
charles caruana
May 30th 2010, 18:01
No, you apparantly have not read carefully what you wrote. if Mr Zammit's attempts were so puerile, why did you specifically request him to desist?
About you having 'absolutely no doubts that Mr Flynn will not be intimidated or scared by Zammit's' attempts you had better start entertaining some doubts at least, for Mr Flynn did threaten to sue Mr Zammit for 'religious insult, assault, oppression and cruelty and I won't hesitate to do so.' Check it out in blog thread 'Religious opinions in newspapers (2)'
You see Mr Vella-Zarb, you are a lucky atheist, not everyone is as cock-sure as you are about the non-existence of the afterlife. I also envy your absolute lack of concern with the moment of death.I guess that certaintly, one way or the other, will come to everyone with death. Before that discovery or extinction, go on enjoying your life.
wally vella-zarb
May 30th 2010, 22:38
Mr Caruana, perhaps our understanding of logic and the English language are on different levels. There is a world of difference between feeling 'intimidated' and being 'insulted'. The pointless repetition of Zammit's cryptic admonition is only succeeding in insulting the recipient gratuitously. It is puerile for him to continue repeating his mantra. It will not achieve anything meaningful. It is as annoying and boring as the comments of the other contributor who can only manage a copy-and-paste to continually remind us that Mr Flynn is a lapsed catholic, an atheist, lives in Australia, etc., etc. Senseless repetitions of this nature and frequency lead one to wonder whether this is one of the signs of senility. Whatever it is, I find it puerile and so boring: B-O-R-I-N-G. Do you now understand the difference?
charles caruana
May 31st 2010, 10:55
@Vella-Zarb
YOUR logic and English are indeed baffling to me. You keep changing goal posts and introducing new words out of your magic hat. First you asked Mr Zammit to desist because his 'puerile', therefore theoretically harmless comments were browbeating Mr. Flynn, then you were sure the latter would not be 'intimidated' or 'scared,' and when you were showed otherwise, you magically produce two brand new reasons, 'insulting' and 'boring'. Have you made up your mind yet? Or are you going finally to decide for Mr Flynn and for us how he should feel about Mr Zammit's comments?
And speaking of 'insulting', wondering and hinting that a person may be showing signs of senility is not mildy insulting to that person and to all persons afflicted with senility, is it not?
Can you now spot the difference Mr Vella-Zarb?
Edward Camilleri
May 30th 2010, 10:17
very good words Mgr. Scicluna, but the public expect punishment to be given to these priests in order to prevent reoccurence, besides removing from the church, like we do to other sex-offenders. Otherwise just by removing these priests from the church you will only be doing a favour to the church! and no one else.
Gorg grech
May 30th 2010, 10:16
It is not just sexual abuse committed by Priests , there are other kinds of abuse coming from the Gozo Church especially from those acting in their official capacities .
Ask the Nadur Farmers and they will tell you what it is !!!!
charles caruana
May 30th 2010, 09:50
Thank God, finally someone among the clergy who actually has the guts to mention the sufferings of hell in a sermon. Many of the clerical 'trendies', especially the populist local variety, are terrified of stepping on the tender spiritual toes of their flock, in case they might shock thier modern susceptible sensibilty. They conveniently forget Christ's repeated and severe warnings about hell and damnation in the Gospels, warnings inspired by infinite love. Well done Mgr Scicluna - always and everywhere Caritas in Veritate.
K Sullivan
May 30th 2010, 09:48
@Rodrick Micallef - Exactly right!!! What does he mean and what is going to be done??
gaffarena joseph
May 30th 2010, 09:42
Well said, Mons scicluna,we are now seeing a light to this grave problem.
I,condemn without any reservation,and the church want to act immediately
to this problem,and do not waste much time and sack once and for all these
priests.This is the only way to solve this grave situation that the church is facing
to day.
We are all humans,and in no time there should be a different role to solve other
problems facing the church related to this issue.
Who knows may be if a priest will have a family of his own,will be more in a position
to administer the role that God gave him.Time will tell who knows?
Joe Zammit
May 30th 2010, 14:05
Joseph, the Catholic Church has married priests as well in the East. Besides, all those Anglican priests who are converting to the Catholic Church and are married are being accepted in the Catholic Church just the same as the others who are not married and are doing pastoral work like all the others. On the other hand, celibacy is a gift from God. Christ was celibate, not married!
Louise Vella
May 30th 2010, 09:30
The Vatican and the bishops should start off by saying Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Mea Maxima Culpa for at least a hundred times, for the way they contributed to the scandal by covering-up the sexual abuse of children by priests. If the Church really wants us to take her seriously she should order all bishops to turn over all files of abusive priests, held in the secret archives of the curia, to the police.
Sexual abuse of children is a shocking crime and as such should be dealt with by the police. As matters stand, the Church just cuts abusive priests loose by defrocking them thus solving the Church’s internal problems. They are loose in society and the bishops just wash their hands of the problem. The bishops know that priests who have been defrocked because of sexual abuse of children are dangerous sexual predators with a wicked sexual interest in young boys and girls. The diocese is part of a cover-up of such abuse by priests in general at the highest levels. Priest child molesters should not escape human justice and I expect bishops to join forces with the police to protect the weakest members of society.
Joe Zammit
May 30th 2010, 13:55
Louise, the victims and ONLY the victims can lodge a complaint of paedophilia to the police. The Church is not in duty-bound to report. The victim can condone as well. To date there is no Maltese paedophile priest.
Roderick Micallef
May 30th 2010, 00:34
Well the church knows a thing or two about amputations and beheadings doesn't it? When I hear the comments of Mgr.Scicluna I am really not surprised at the mentality of these people, 'Without doubt, if they had fallen all by themselves, their suffering in Hell would be easier to bear'!
Can you tell us how can you actually explain such a statement? It's as if Mgr.Scicluna has already been in hell and back, how can some one talk about something as if he has full experience of it when in actual facts it's simply a statement that can never be proven? What a bunch of delusional statements.
Can Mgr.Scicluna be more specific as to what and who is he planning to amputate exactly? Does this mean that ANY ONE caught abusing minors within the church community will be liable and prosecuted regularly and not instead be protected by the same church? What amazes me most if that if you filter all the statements and comments nothing as such has been done so far so what are you waiting exactly Mgr.Scicluna? Intimidation comments about hell and an after life will not serve any good both for the abused and the abusers!
charles caruana
May 30th 2010, 10:30
'Intimidation comments about hell and an after life will not serve any good both for the abused and the abusers!'
You are cock-sure about this 'bunch of delusional statements', are you not Mr Micallef? why? Have you been there and back by any chance? Guess you will only be sure when you breath your last, won't you?
As to the reality of heaven and hell, I'd rather take my cue from Christ and the saints, they are more reliable witnesses than you or me.
'Intimadation comments?' They would be wasted on a convinced atheist, don't you think?
Joe Zammit
May 30th 2010, 13:51
Roderick, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus by Christ points to scandal as well. Christ appeared to St Catherine of Siena and explained to her many parts of the Gospel. She had three notaries with her during the ecstacy. Christ told her that the rich man wanted God to send Abraham to his children because the rich man had scandalized his children and now his children are scandalizing others, and this would remain on end. The rich man was suffering not only for his sins but also for all the scandals that were to be committed on account of his scandal. So his suffering is much greater.
edward bartolo
May 30th 2010, 00:04
May God almighty heal the church from these terrible sins. It is very reassuring to see the church making a great effort to eradicate this monster from the roots. It is also very promising to read that the church will scrutinize those who choose to prepare themselves for priesthood.
May God be with the church's leaders to restore its health and sainthood. Oh Lord make the church a true living image of your gospel!
Stephen Koludrovic
May 29th 2010, 23:26
Its not a question of cutting off his ties with the church,.
iTS MORE TO PUTTING THE PRIEST IN PRISON FOR A VERY LONG TIME.
No one has a right to abuse innocent children, ITS JUST SICK!!!!
Joe Zammit
May 30th 2010, 13:17
Stephen, you cannot send a priest, or anyone for that matter, to prison unless there is a criminal action and he is convicted. To date no Maltese Catholic priest has been convicted and so to date there is no Maltese paedophile priest.
ray sacco
May 30th 2010, 21:20
@joe zammit:
no maltese catholic priest has been convicted because no maltese catholic priest has been arraigned by the police because maltese catholic priests benefit from a scandalous agreement between maltese government and church which puts maltese clergy above the law of the country! yet we still find some gullible individuals believing there are no paedophile priests! how can they be so naive?
martin saliba
May 29th 2010, 22:39
All this because now we can say what we want without the fear of being sent to a mental institution.
J. Huber
May 29th 2010, 21:03
That Mons Scicluna is seen in very positive light by the Vatican because of his excellent handling of this unfortunate situation in well known. However, I never knew Mons Scicluna had become a Cardinal! That's the title he has been given during the 8.00pm news bulletin on RAI I !!!!!
Joe Zammit
May 29th 2010, 20:40
Priests are tempted to transgress the Sixth and Ninth Commandments as all human beings. But we must deny ourselves by God's grace in order to please God. The eternal joy that God gives us when we choose him in temptation by far supercedes the temporary pleasure that any sexual act can give.
Also we, laypeople, must make an examination of conscience at least once a day to make progress in our spiritual life, let alone priests. When priests, for any reason whatsoever, start leaving out their daily examination of conscience, they start regressing in their spiritual life.
ray sacco
May 29th 2010, 21:46
@joe zammit:
bla bla bla bla..........and more bla bla bla bla...........the anger that we, laypeople, have is not because priests fell to temptation, but for the way the catholic church has hidden and protected, and is still hiding and protecting these monsters! more bla bla bla is useless. name the perverts and hand them over to justice!
Moses Mula
May 29th 2010, 22:21
What kind of sexual pleasure does it give to abuse children? Paedophilia is not about sexual pleasure, but like rape, it has all to do with having power over someone who is weaker than you. Priest or no priest, a believer or non believer, one should no what is right from wrong. Your comment makes it sound like those who do not believe in god, like myself, cannot separate what is right from wrong. Do not try to sound holier than thou and assuming that religious people are moraly superior. It is just stupid rhetoric Mr.Preacher.
stanley jezior
May 29th 2010, 23:59
talk is cheap. the pr machines are working overtime everywhere and in every country w
RIck Pope
May 30th 2010, 01:47
All Im hearing here ( reading between the lines of course ) - is that Mgr Scicluna is tossing around the idea of removing from the church those found guilty of this most horrible crime.
However, I ask these questions and put them to the readers of this fine on-line newspaper
1: Is this this a definitive " wev'e now decided to actually DO this" - or just " were looking at it "?
2: Lets say for example they DO actually 'amputate' and remove those guilty of this - does this action by the church become the ONLY action that will be taken ? - or will these " creatures" be POUNCED APON by the law, dragged away and then face the full FURY of the justice system and the public?.
Sadly, Im thinking " behind closed doors " a deal or two might be cut to allow these animals to simply "walk" on the quiet.
Remember the case of the guy who hit 2 women with brass knuckles and walked? - thats NOT genuine "justice" ..will these people recieve the same " slap-on-the-wrist perhaps? - I hope NOT!