Kurt Sansone
Book's gay claims aim to discredit Church - bishop
Gozo Bishop Mario Grech has condemned a book claiming that St Paul and Malta's first saint had gay tendencies, saying the its intention is to discredit priests by propagating a lie.
In a homily last Thursday at the Qala parish to commemorate the feast of St Joseph, Mgr Grech said the allegations were "serious" and based on a "malicious agenda".
The book, Queer Mediterranean Memories by Maltese-Australian lawyer Joseph Carmel Chetcuti, speculates on the sexual orientation of various prominent people including St Ġorġ Preca and Agatha Barbara among others.
Without referring to the book by name, Mgr Grech sarcastically described the reason it gives to justify the drop in the number of seminarians - the author alleges it is because the Church has admitted gay men to the priesthood - as "fantastic".
Mgr Grech also took umbrage at what he described as a "campaign to associate Pope Benedict with incidents of paedophile and gay priests".
"The mud they are throwing at the Pope's white frock is dirt they want to stick to the whole Church," he said, insisting it was intended to "destroy the Church's moral authority and instil serious doubts about the credibility of Christian doctrine".
The bishop's defence of the Pope comes at a time when the Vatican is dealing with allegations of abuse by clergymen in Ireland, Germany and Switzerland.
In a pastoral letter to the Irish diocese yesterday, the Pope apologised to victims of abuse for the "grave errors" committed by Irish church authorities.
During his homily Mgr Grech also referred to sexual abuse committed by priests and said he would not be surprised if parents stopped sending their children to doctrinal lessons or the Museum out of fear their children "would be touched".
Condemning sexual abuse of all sorts, he called for strict measures to curb abuse to be adopted not only by the Church but also by other professional classes and institutions.
"I give my word that if I get to know of any abusive behaviour in the pastoral camp, I will act. However, it is not just to blame everyone for the mistake of an individual," Mgr Grech said.
He also spoke about celibacy and described it as a virtue but insisted he was worried about attempts by some to "discredit" this vow and link it to paedophilia and homosexuality.
A survey carried out in 2004 with the approval of the Gozo Curia showed that nine per cent of Gozitan priests were not observing the Canon law provision on celibacy and 17 per cent said they did not agree with it.
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Joseph Carmel Chetcuti
Mar 25th 2010, 16:22
@v Zammit. One clarification. I never accused the Pope or his brother of molesting children. What irritiates me are Roman Catholic leaders who think they have a hotline to God but when it comes to child abuse they always know nothing about it. How great is this God who can tell them that using a condom is a sin but who cannot tell them when children are abused? The book mentions one case going back to 1568 (yes, 1568) when one priest was moved from one convent to another due to sexual impropriety. In Malta, it appears that cases of child abuse involving priests first appear in the secular courts and are then transferrd to a church body that refers them to Rome. If this is the case, it is corruption of the worst kind, clearly demonstrating that the Vatican is part and parcel of child abuse. I ask: why do cases involving priests in Malta are always forgotten? Wake up Malta! Don't let the Church and State take you for fools! An incoming government should institute an inquiry headed by some prominent foreign judge to get to the bottom of what appears to be a scandal of great proportions.
Joseph Carmel Chetcuti
Mar 25th 2010, 16:08
@v Zammit. Speculation as against invention is a valid tool in recreating history especially when you are dealing with a community that has been mostly invisible in an island that is homophobic. What you end up with is a set of facts which you put together like a jigsaw puzzle. Others can account for the parts of the puzzle differently. It is their right. The parts of the puzzle with respect to Dun Gorg Preca led me to one conclusion only. The difference between me and others is that I do not assume anyone to be heterosexual. I do not see what the fuss is about. I priased Preca for his holiness and his work with the laity. That was completely ignored by others with a vested interest. The Church is very sensitive of any criticism. In Malta, it is an arrogant institution that needs to be put in its place. To those who want to say that Preca was heterosexual I say: bring on the proof. To those in the Church who are critical of me, I extend this challenge to them: Prove that you are heterosexual. Our worst enemies are and have been churchy closet queens.
v zammit
Mar 25th 2010, 07:41
@ Joseph Carmel Chetcuti.
I do not want to hog this comments column, but I have not seen your book yet. Perhaps I may if it comes my way. If it did I’d be curious to know where speculation ends and research begins (going by the report, that is). Very much like reading a Dan Brown book: you know it’s fiction laced with facts – like his description of the Vatican library in ‘Angels and Demons’. Supreme. But his interpretaions (or someone else’s made his own) are, to put it mildly, engaging. Like the ‘woman’ in the Last Supper. Wouldn’t being beardless and of delicate complexion apply also to the other ‘man’ (Philip) on the Christ’s left. You see? (This, I'm sure would make you go and have a look at the painting. Good). by way of illustrating how we may pick and choose, and fuse fact and figment together. Randomly. So it’s wary to swipe broadly. Same here, perhaps, re: your book and its critics. Unless you’d give us a treat, a little preview by way of sample. Would whet our appetite to buy. Thanks.
Joseph Carmel Chetcuti
Mar 24th 2010, 21:40
I have not responded to Mario Grech's statement because his statement shows the Church for what it truly is - petrified of the truth and irrationally sensitive to any sort of criticism. Significantly Mario Grech is not only critical of my book but also of those who report cases of child abuse by the clergy. I imagine he prefers to leave the people of God in the dark as is the case in Malta with respect to cases of sexual abuse involving the Maltese and Gozitan clergy. How many of them have been forced to face the music and imprisoned, I wonder?
The truth is that the professions of the priesthood and the religious life are somewhat attractive to a section of the homosexual community particularly those into religious drag. As for a significant number of priests and religious being gay, I apologize for not including bishops and popes. I also have no doubt that history will prove me right in the link I drew between the rise of gay and lesbian liberation and the devastation of the Roman Catholic priesthood and the religious life. The Catholic Church in Malta will be a minority church in less than 20 years.
Christine Bright
Mar 23rd 2010, 23:49
Many commented on the gay aspect of the article, but what struck me most was the last part:
"A survey carried out in 2004 with the approval of the Gozo Curia showed that nine per cent of Gozitan priests were not observing the Canon law provision on celibacy and 17 per cent said they did not agree with it."
And then we wonder why we have paedophiles and gay sex in the church? If a man wants to have sex he would go to his wife, his lover or a prostitute. If a priest wants to have sex? He would go to the weak (the children in homes) and those ashamed or uncertain of their sexual orientation (gays) who would not uncover him so quickly. The definition of "Love thy neighbour" has been distorted by some to a sick extent.
Having a sex life is healthy. Having sex with kids and ruining other people's lives is not.
v zammit
Mar 23rd 2010, 09:55
@Gabi Calleja – best comment on sexual orientation.
The report says that Dr Chetcuti “speculates”. The Bishop considers these speculations ‘serious’ and ‘malicious’. It's his view. He is critical of gay tendencies because they discredit priests. One’s guess is that the Bishop was not referring to the orientation but to careless priests. Like the 17% who did not observe celibacy. And celibacy is a virtue.
He spoke of other issues not necesarrily connected.
Like the ‘campaign to associate the Pope with paedophile and gay priests’. The connection of homosexuality with paedophilia may be unwarranted. A bit abstruse was his lingering on this association because it is accepted that the Pope is not associated. There are facts, reports and damn spin. His other fear is that these incidents destroy moral authority and prejudice christian doctine. I commented on this. His fear of parents not sending their children to the Museum lest their children ‘be touched’ might provoke that very same fear. Comfort is that were the Christ to gather children around him now, the police would probably be called in. The Bishop’s last point was celibacy. That is another story. Which is why Ms Gabi Calleja’s comment is focused and relevant.
Kevin Cassar
Mar 22nd 2010, 16:22
Mgr Grech says the book's intention is to discredit priests by propagating a lie. Well first of all, discrediting priests needs no assistance from nobody since, considering the countless cases of child abuse that show up every now and then, they are already doing it themselves. Secondly if this book propagates a LIE, then it is in direct competition with your own book (the bible) and we can't really have that can we???
Gabi Calleja
Mar 22nd 2010, 11:11
I am unsure if the inconsistency lies with the reporting or Bishop Mario Grech. In any case, to clarify: what Dr Joseph Chetcuti stated was that the advent of sexual liberation led to a decrease in the number of vocations to the priesthood. The fact that there is a disproportionately high representation of homosexual men in the priesthood was not contested by Fr Joe Borg. Only that these constituted the majority. I find Dr Chetcuti's contention difficult to prove in that any number of factors could have led to a decrease in the number of men entering the priesthood and the freedom for gay men to live out their sexual orientation openly is only one of them. Nevertheless, as Dr Emy Bezzina has stated, I do believe that Dr Joseph Chetcuti has every right to make such a claim and other people, including the Bishop are perfectly free to contest such claims. What I find rather puzzling is why the suggestion that a priest, saint or individual is gay could in any way be interpreted as a serious allegation unless one believes that homosexuality is somehow wrong or of less value than heterosexuality. ie. unless one is actually homophobic.
J Farrugia
Mar 22nd 2010, 09:32
Dr bezzina freedom of expression is a guaaranteed right but you cannot abuse it. Otherwise that freedom stops where mine begins. And you cannot say whatever comes to your mouth without accepting responsibility for it. We have rights and duties and one is held responsible for whatever one says or publishes. So you can smear whoever you want without anything happening to you? Dont live on planet Mars. We live on earth. No one will escape justice by quoting freedom of expression. Dr Bezzina.
Audrey Costa
Mar 21st 2010, 23:23
Jesus has always spoke in favour of child protection. The Church is built on His teachings. Some of its clergy have clearly betrayed Jesus. The rest still hold this principle, and therefore I remain a follower, and as a Catholic, I will work through example, to restore our faith's respect.
“Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. “Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
(Matthew 18:2-6 ESV)
He also said:
“He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her.”
Joseph Carmel Chetcuti
Mar 21st 2010, 23:12
It is good to see that the book has started a debate even though many of the contributors have clearly not read the book.
Wilfred L Camilleri
Mar 21st 2010, 22:58
Mr. Abela, I don't think our opinions are that far apart. I to agree that we shouldn't excuse the perpetrators and the colleagues or superiors who protect these pedophiles. I just want to make the point that we shouldn't tar the whole Church with the same brush as many are apt to do. Those in charge must be honest, forthright, transparent, and tackle the problem head on. Those who are guilty of these crimes should be punished according to the law and should be removed from their position by their superiors. As to their reconciliation, that's between them, their confessor, and God.
colin stanley
Mar 21st 2010, 22:36
@ Robert Callus. it depends what you mean by normal, if you think that a person is all made up with blonde hair, with big boobs, having a male organ, was married with children, and wants to marry a woman, (it was on pommerigio cinque ) is normal, I give up!!!!
@ Bo. Schimdt. is your religion perfect?
Bo Schmidt
Mar 22nd 2010, 10:52
Collin Stanley: Only God is perfect! NOT the any church denomination, but I frankly don't see my protestant church even trying to act as if it is, nor believing to have the absolute truth of all aspects of life and death.
M. Farrugia
Mar 21st 2010, 22:14
Grazzi Monsinjur Mario Grech li kellek il-kuragg li tikkritika dan il-ktieb moqziez. Nispera li l-mexxejja tal-MUSEUM jidhu passi kontra ta dan il-Malti -awstraljan għal dawn l-insulti, nappella ukoll lil membri tal-familja ta San Gorg biex ma ihallux dawn l-affarijiet ghaddejja. Nappella lil kull minn huwa Malti vera mhux bhas-sur Chetcuti sabiex dan il-ktieb jikkundannah u ma jixtrihx. Nappella ukoll liol peppi Azzopardi sabiex bhal ma gab lil dan l-awtur fil-programm tieghu ikun ragel u jistieden membri tal-familja ta San Gorg u lil tal-MUSEUM halli jiddefendu l-integrita ta' San Gorg. Jekk Peppi ma jaghmilx jekk inhoss li jkun qieghed jonqos lejn San Gorg Preca. Nispera li jkollok il-kuraġġ u taġixxi Peppi.
L.farrugia
Mar 21st 2010, 22:03
Jiena nigi minn San Gorg Preca u niftgakru sewwa. Nista nghid li ma kellux tendenzi bhal ma semma J. C. Chetcuti li ghandu dawn it-tendenzi. Jista jghid minfejn gab din l-informazzjoni, jekk meta Dun Gorg Preca kien haj kellux xi inkontru mieghu sabiex jistaqsih dwar dawn it-tendenzi. U ma min tlekkem sabiex gab din l-informazzjoni. Li kieku kien f'pajjiz musulman u qal dan il-kliem li Chetcuti ikun wiehed minn dawk fuq il-lista sabiex joqtluh. Ahna min-naha tghna ma naghmlux hekk imma nitolbu lil San Gorg sabiex jitlob ghalih sabiex ifiq mill-marda li ghandu li jipprova ikasbar membri tal-Kleru u lil Knisja. Nappella lil Maltin sabiex dan il-ktieb ma jixtruh sabiex ma ipaxxux lil awtur li ipprova jaghmel sensazzjoni.
Joe Fenech
Mar 21st 2010, 21:29
What's so wrong in being gay or are we still battling against these people? I'm not saying they should have a right to bring up children, but they can at least have a civil partnership. The Church has other things to be shamed of like pedophilia!
A Gatt
Mar 21st 2010, 21:28
Have I missed the Times report on the book's launch? Is it not telling that the reaction to the book by Mgr Grech makes it to press while the actual object of his rant is not reported at all? Forget the omnipresence of God - the Catholic Church here in Malta is certainly on a par.
Trevor Lorenzo Mizzi
Mar 21st 2010, 21:27
Paedophilia discredits the church even more than a gay St. Paul dear bishop !
Bo Schmidt
Mar 21st 2010, 21:13
Dear Mr Bishop! You say: "The mud they are throwing at the Pope's white frock is dirt they want to stick to the whole Church," he said, insisting it was intended to "destroy the Church's moral authority and instil serious doubts about the credibility of Christian doctrine".
Frankly I don't think one book will be able to do so much. The reason why the church gets its creditibility destroyed you can find all over the Western world these days. First the horrible crimes comitted to innocent children as innocent asJesus when he was a baby and then all the smokescreens to try to hide these horrors. Just a recent example here: http://politiken.dk/newsinenglish/article926913.ece.
So if your church is in discredit its should try to clean up the mud it makes it self not the few drops made by one single book. The we Christians of other denominations might start to respect your church again!
Wilfred L Camilleri
Mar 21st 2010, 20:33
Mr. Abela, joining a football club or a band club is not the same as belonging to a church. Religion is about God and the church was started by Jesus. The church, like any human endeavor, is not perfect. After all it is populated my humans, who are less then perfect. That said, one does not quit the church because some of it's members have committed sins, however grievous. Since the Church was started by Christ when he told Peter "On this rock I build my Church" when one chooses to quit the Church one is in effect choosing to quit Christ. One can interpret the Bible the way one chooses and justify one's actions based on those interpretations but the fact remains that the Church is Christ's Church and one leaves it at his or hew own peril.
A. E. Abela
Mar 21st 2010, 21:30
Mr.Camilleri, the football or band club example was just to explain to you the concept of how a morally sane person with strong values would tackle such situations in a very brief and simplistic way. Of course one shouldn’t quit the church because of a few or more criminals, Jesus anticipated these things and warned us; and that is exactly why it is in our duty and responsibility to remove, change and bring to justice the perpetrators who are causing all this grief and bad rep. to the same house of our Lord. So please do not in any more ways try to excuse both the perpetrators and the colleagues or superiors who protect these paedophiles. Those times should be long gone.
Anthony Grech
Mar 21st 2010, 18:15
@ C.Zammit Who are you to say that anyone isn't normal. The absolute gaul of a person like you trying to make others feel bad about themselves makes me sick. If you want to live by that true book then go ahead, but leave the rest of us alone. Sit there and preach to your family. I pitty any of your family if they happen to be gay, or maybe you will cure them with your bible.
Wilfred L Camilleri
Mar 21st 2010, 18:08
Mr. Abela, where did you find this (He could not find forgiveness for the pedophile.) in the bible? God forgives all sins if the sinner reconciles. I'm not justifying what these priests are alleged to have done and I agree that those responsible should not have hidden any such wrong doings. However, to tarnish the whole church with the same crime is a crime in itself and that's what really sick. Jesus said "Let those who have not sinned throw the first stone". Since we are all sinners, we shouldn't cast stones. Let those who are convicted of such crimes be punished according to the laws but let's not accuse the whole church of their sins.
A. E. Abela
Mar 21st 2010, 18:48
Mr.Camilleri; the stone throwing lesson was given out in the case of the adulteress if I’m not mistaken when they wanted to stone the Magdalena. Now to refresh your biblical memory, I quote ‘ahjar torbot gebla ma onqok u titfaha il-bahar milli tigi ghandi ghal mahfra, jiena nahfer 77 darba pero mhux meta tiskandalizza it tfal l-innocenti…’ Now about putting all in the same basket: If I join a football club or a band club and find out that other committee members are part of or covering up or allowing illegal activity, I either report to the police or else resign and disassociate myself cause if I stay I am in cahoots or an accomplice, let alone try to hide, justify or play it down when it gets in the open. Now that is sick and surely a crime.
C.Zammit
Mar 21st 2010, 16:54
These people are trying very hard to try and convince us that being gay is normal. A person like this is also trying to humiliate religion. This book is a load of rubbish. As usual these people are trying to eliminate Christ and religion in general so they could feel better with their life styles. The only true and good book is the bible! The rest is all rubbish. We don't need any wise Maltese - Australian or Maltese - English to teach us how we should live and about religion! I mention them as they are always infront to try and educate us living here in Malta.
Mark-Anthony Fenech
Mar 21st 2010, 17:43
as a science fiction/fantasy book the bible has its merits...
Robert Callus
Mar 21st 2010, 18:02
People have sex for three main reasons: pleasure, love and procreation. A homosexual does it for the first two. A priest refrains completely or does it in secret. Who is not 'normal' of them?
PS I use the word normal because you used it. I don't believe that what is most common - non clergy heterosexual - is more 'normal' than others.
ray sacco
Mar 23rd 2010, 11:42
everyone has an own opinion, mr.zammit. if you think that all the books are rubbish and that the only true book is the one in which a lady has a chat with a snake, good luck to your intelligence! as for me, i prefer 'alice in wonderland'......it contains less fantasy!
victor caruana
Mar 21st 2010, 16:01
Do not pass on guilt on others. Widespread events and incidents associated with child and sexual abuse were committed by the catholic clergy on not by book writers. The insult is that there is no knowledge of prosection against such culprits. And there is were the pope should assume repsonsibility.
Dr Emm.BEZZINA,LL.D.,MAG.JUR.
Mar 21st 2010, 15:51
FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION is a well-ingrained fundamental human right which has to be respected and adhered to: vide for example Article 10 of The European 1950 Convention.I was given a complimentary copy of QUEER MEDITERRANEAN MEMORIES by the author himself whom I came to know a number of years back.When Barrister JOSEPH CHETCUTI who practises law in Australia launched his IL-KTIEB IR-ROZA in the late ninties on the now-defunct but avente garde Radio Station LIVE FM in my Live Programme [ 9PM - 0600AM ] ``IL-PARLAMENT TAL-POPLU``,the public reaction tended to reflect the insular mentality our people have had about homosexuals who are different from Gays.The Mentality is mercifully completely diverse these days.The Book will be analyzed LIVE in RAY CALLEJA`s DEE MEDIA Programme 12.05 tomorrow Monday,March 22nd,2010,between 2-3pm,on PBS with the author himself present,as well as Fr Colin Apap and myself.These programmes are healthy as they show humanity for what it actually is: Bishop Grech`s statements remind us of CHRIST`s admonition about HIM WHO IS WITHOUT GUILT.The Organization to which Bishop Grech appertains has no right by its own Founder`s Dictum to condemn OTHER DEEDS when it is not seeing the BEAM IN ITS OWN EYE!
M. Saliba ABC DEF GHI
Mar 22nd 2010, 09:52
Sur Bezzina xi nghidu for the "right for privacy and private life" ?????
Basta nikkwotaw il-ligi, bicciet biss imma ...
Anthony Grech
Mar 21st 2010, 15:04
Does anyone think that the message of St Paul would be anyless important if he was indeed gay?
Wilfred L Camilleri
Mar 21st 2010, 14:20
Many quickly accuse the whole church and all priests because some priests and other religious are guilty of committing such crimes. Using the same logic these people use one can then come to a conclusion that every one of them is guilty because some other men who are not priests have committed such crimes. Yes some priests have committed such crimes but the majority are good priests doing the work of God.
A. E. Abela
Mar 21st 2010, 16:24
If one is part of the problem, one cannot be part of the solution. Not even Jesus Christ - the ever merciful, - He could not find forgiveness for the paedophile. Well, apparently some people are ready to dismiss the words and teachings of Jesus Christ to cover up so as to protect the church. I think it is very conflicting and most of all sick.
Wilfred L Camilleri
Mar 21st 2010, 14:08
Joseph Carmel Chetcuti makes claims that he cannot substantiate and his book is but a load of rubbish. And Mr. Borg saying that we should stop "quoting a book that was written thousands of years ago" is even more rubbish. Mr. Chetcuti has the right to be treated like anyone else whether straight or gay but what he has not a right to do is publish a bunch of nonsense claiming that people who are long dead are gay because of the way they talked or who they hung around with.
ray sacco
Mar 21st 2010, 14:04
the victimsof paedophile clergy members and the people in general do not want any more vague apologies and stupid pastoral letters from the catholic church authorities! they want justice! so if the church wants to regain some credibility, it should give the paedophiles' names to the authorities so that action can be taken and put these perverts where they belong..........behind bars!
Ronald Ebejer
Mar 21st 2010, 13:47
le ghamel sew l-Isqof Grech li kkundanna dan il-kteib vulgari mahmug denju ta' nies bla pudur u bla kuxjenza,. B'hekk mahniex naghtuh pubblicita' ani qed nghallmu lill-kulhadd x'inhu tajjeb u x'mhux tajjeb. dan huwa dover ta' kulhadd anke tal-Knisja. Jmissa tisthi l-GWU li tat pubblicita' kbira lil dan il-ktieb li huwa ta hsara ghal kull min jaqrah anke jekk dan ikun xi professur jew intellettwali (sic). Fl-italja il-qorti suprema iddecidiet li jekk jiena nghid gay lil xi persuna li tkun verament gay, inkun hati ta' reat kriminali. U lil dan x'ghandna naghmlulu talli qed ihallat il-hass mal-haxix, u jhammeg nies mejtin u qaddisin iktar minnhu zgur? Il-kundanna ser johodha thabblux raskom.
Eric Gahn
Mar 21st 2010, 13:32
@ D Grima
@ Christian Sciberas
What I wrote in my post is absolutely not what I believe but what the church (including Mario Grech) says.
On a second note: I would liek to draw the attention to the document here (http://www.multiline.com.au/~johnm/ethics/crimineextracts.htm) which contains exerpts of a document called 'Crimen Sollicitationis' that clearly shows that the Vatican instructed dioceses to do all they could to hide cases peadophilia by clergy.
I wonder :
a) when (since it is highly unlikely that Malta is as full of saints as the adverts say) the bubble burts locally if any high ranking church official will be taken to court accused with obstuructin of justice
b) considering that the above document is clearly an act of sabotage against a country by another state, will Josef Ratzinger still be received as a friend or as a criminal?
Christian Sciberras
Mar 21st 2010, 20:59
Sincere apologies, didn't register your hint of sarcasm in your previous post.
J.Tonna
Mar 21st 2010, 13:02
The same old story goes on and on. When someone is successful in something certain people search his/her family tree to see if they have any family connection with him/her. But if anyone is condemned for doing something irregular they will out rightly say that they have no connection with him at all. This happens in everyday life including politics.
Now this author, in his fantasy, is saying that certain important people in Malta are or were gay. So what?? Personally I see gays the same way I see left handed people – they are normal but different from the majority.
g.portelli
Mar 21st 2010, 13:01
@ Eric Gahn
Being celibate also goes against human nature as your limbic system is programmed to procreate. Biological events tend to have biological causes.By the same reasoning you apply , celibacy then becomes a sin. The nature argument is not the best to employ here.
matthias borg
Mar 21st 2010, 12:56
being gay is not a choice. that s d way it is. deal with it. please stop considering being gay as a sin. will you say that if your son or daughter is gay? also stop quoting a book that was written thousands of years ago. i still cannot beleive that in malta there are people who still write this nonsense. Being gay was always there....and it will always be. Also thanks to the bishop i got to know of this book because i never heard of it. I m going to buy it just right now.
g.portelli
Mar 21st 2010, 12:52
Nothing undermines the Church's moral authority more than the persistent culture of Omerta and collusion with perpetrators of criminal action. That is what unfortunately eclipses the good the Church engenders in the world.
What action will his Excellency the Bishop of Gozo be taking regarding past perpetrators and their victims? Will justice prevail and will Social justice be done?
Re Celibacy why not take a leaf out of the Greek Orthodox tradition wouldn't that be a healthier option?
D Grima
Mar 21st 2010, 12:36
Eric Gahn..go tell that to those who were,and are being sexually assaulted by lecherous man and women wearing religious garb.
Being gay is not a sin. It is part and parcel of what makes us human beings. If being gay is a sin against human nature,what say you to all those who chose to supposedly lead a celibate life.
There is also a widely held conception that in order to be a paedophile you have to be gay. Another lie .
St Paul has been for a long time been suspect of being homosexual. Nothing new or original there. As for Gorg Preca,certainly his mannerisms gave cause for suspicion and his insistence that he only wanted virgin man and woman in his organisation is rather suspect.
Never complain,never explain indeed! That's precisely what this unholy Church has been doing . It's neither clever nor will it achieve anything.in fact the opposite would be true, You might have added 'never apologise' Mr.De Puis.,that too is another maxim which brought the British Empire to it's knees.These sort of remarks come out of mouths of those who think they are somehow superior..and yet.are not.
J. Debono
Mar 21st 2010, 12:31
@Adrian Aquilina
Quote:
"he seems to forget that scientific, and historical facts all point to religion being fake"
Can you enlighten me please - I have a doctorate in sciences - and though many questions have been answered by science, however there are still some phenoma, that can never be answered by sciences unless all the laws are re-written.
Two examples:-
1. Physics states that energy cannot be created nor destroyed, then in the Big Bang theory science states that the universe had a beginning which started from a single point of energy. Where did that energy come from? Always been there? How can the universe has a beginning when the law states - energy cannot be created nor destroyed?
2. Theory of Chaos, against the evolution of all species. Contradicting each other. And please don't tell me survival of the fittest - that theory makes sense only after evolution.
All religions state one thing - divine intervention, and unless science explain to me at least the 2 examples above, I will continue to believe.
But never state that science proofs/points that religions are fake, it is still a long way off, if ever there comes the time!
M.Portelli
Mar 21st 2010, 13:37
Ehhhh you beat me to it - I was just about to give the same comment. I really really would like him to refer to some scientific paper published in a peer-reviewed journal that negates conclusivly the existence of God. He also mentions the alluring promise of historical proof - would he mind providing proof as well.
D. Farrugia
Mar 21st 2010, 20:25
It is precisely the fact that scientists are not sure what existed before the Big Bang that religious doctrine can freely home in and "speculate"on the existence of a deity! But this neither proves nor discredits the existence of a Creator!
19th century philosophers and scientists believed life on earth was a consequence of omnipotent design. This view was shattered by Charles Darwin in 1859. Evolution (descent with modification and speciation) is through adaptation to local environments and natural selection, which are, in turn, due to heritable (genetic) variation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_selection
ray sacco
Mar 22nd 2010, 07:44
neither science nor religion knows for sure where we came from and where we go to after life, and that is a fact. the difference between science and religion is that while science keeps exploring for facts and proof, religion is trapped in it's antique theories that the modern, not so naive society little believe in!
Robert Callus
Mar 21st 2010, 12:14
The simple fact that Mgr Grech finds this offensive shows that he really considers gays as inferior, sick or on the wrong side. I don't know what Paul was, but so what if he was gay?
I do not think such references were intended to offend the church, but to invite it to understand that being gay/lesbian is just a different sexual orientation.
The church's stance on homosexuals leads to serious hate crimes. THOSE are what needs to be condemned
http://robertcallus.wordpress.com/2010/01/16/not-in-my-name-%E2%80%93-a-message-to-the-pope/
Alexander Bonello du Puis
Mar 21st 2010, 12:10
@renald williams
Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn, and caldron bubble.
Fillet of a fenny snake,
In the caldron boil and bake;
v zammit
Mar 21st 2010, 11:58
Good for the Bishop to remind us. The Pope’s disassociation and condemnation brings an end to prevarication and spin and restores the Church’s image as to the hard truth. Paedophile and gay priests will not destroy the Church’s moral authority nor the credibility of doctrine. If they or other black pages did, the institution would long have ceased to exist. State and church are natural institutions and cannot be brought down. Like bringing Shakespeare down with an odd book. Nor are our perceptions a threat. There are books and books. And publicity does more good to them than the books themselves. Well, bear with me and think again of ‘The Da Vinci Code’. Good novel but more than that. Like Grisham’s ‘The Testament’, it has a thesis and a moral: the glorification of womanhood, the standing of woman, the sacred feminine and the story of Mary Magdalene. Woman’s position pre- and post-325 A.D. in world religions. As well as sex and procreation. An everywoman’s read, indeed. But some thought the book sacrilegious and iconoclastic and meant to hold processions to atone. Saints Paul and Preca and the Barbaras of this world will cast a cold eye and pass by.
J. Debono
Mar 21st 2010, 11:51
Even if Mgr. Grech is right (how does he know St. Paul is gay!!), my reply is -
SO WHAT??? The Pope is gay, SO WHAT? It makes absolutely no difference to me,
I respect the person, not his sexual orientation. What does people have against gays?
To write a book, publishing the names of people, and saying they are gay is sick.
Eric Gahn
Mar 21st 2010, 11:47
@ Anthony Baldacchino: Being gay is a sin because it goes against human nature which is a creation of God (or soemthing like that). Being a pedophile priest is just a weakness and prayer can help healing.
Christian Sciberras
Mar 21st 2010, 12:06
I have to agree with Anthony Baldacchino.
The church doesn't address the issues reasonably, in my opinion.
Citing Biblical (and human rights) sources does no one any good.
Going against human nature (eg, gay, lesbian, pedophilia,...) is surely not a sin (unless committed unethically) but it remains a sickness, and there's no argument to that.
I have yet to see a blind person proud of his illness.
ray sacco
Mar 21st 2010, 13:34
so you're saying that having a volontary adult relationship with your same sex (gay) is wrong while forcing, abusing and taking advantage of a child without sexual knowledge and molesting him/her is only a weakness!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! are you serious? if the catholic church is full of guys like you, than i can understand why it's losing it's credibility by the minutes!
KJ Tabone
Mar 23rd 2010, 11:12
Wow...just, wow!
What skewed reasoning!! I'd rather have a million gay friends than know one paedophile! Oh if only prayer could actually cure paedophilia!! It shouldn't exist at all then. Yeah, right, and I'm Queen of England!
Vincent Galea
Mar 21st 2010, 11:25
Everyone is entitled to their weaknesses.
We work on overcoming them. God deliberately created a world of imbalance and expresively commanded us not to take advantage of the fact. It is precisely the restraint that we, as human beings are called upon to manifest that sets us apart from the animals and endows us with morality
God created a world in which no two people are equal, be it in size, speed, intelligence and whenever two people get together there is always the temptation for one to take advantage of the other
Morality says: When you see a weakness in someone, don't take advantage of it, respect it, go around it, don't disturb it, don't enter where you are Not invited.Taking advantage of another's weakness is an insult to their intelligence. It is an assumption that you are living by the dictates of the body alone, and it demonstrates a total lack of the human condition.
When we understand this, I believe, it would make us better people.
ray sacco
Mar 21st 2010, 13:27
it seems that your church clergy did not take your advice and understand these words as it seems they keep taking advantage of their colleagues' weakness since paedophile cases keep spreading like plague in the dark ages!
Anthony Baldacchino
Mar 21st 2010, 11:14
Is it not better to be gay rather than a peadophile?
renald williams
Mar 21st 2010, 11:08
no comment... peace and health... New Testament reading
Kwotazzjonijiet :
Il-Katekizmu tal-Knisja Kattolika
Arcidjocesi Ta’ Malta
Gwanni Pawlu II
25 ta’ Gunju 1992
Pagna 348 Paragrafu 1577
Ara 1 Tim 3:1-13, Titus 1:5-9.
Il-Knisja Kattolika Rumana tittraduci dan il-vers hekk:
Il-Bibbja It-Tieni Edizzjoni
Ghaqda Biblika Maltija 1996
1 Tim 3:1-13.
L-ghazla ta’ l-isqof.
Din kelma ta’ min joqghod fuqha… Jehtieg, imma, li l-isqof… li jkun ragel ta’ mara… li jkun ragel jaf imexxi tajjeb id-dar tieghu; u li jzomm lil uliedu… Ghax jekk wiehed ma jkunx jaf imexxi ‘l daru stess, kif jista’ jiehu hsieb il-Knisja ta’ Alla?
L-ghazla tad-djakni.
Hekk ukoll id-djakni… Hekk ukoll in-nisa taghhom… Id-djakni jkunu rgiel li ma jkunux mizzewgin ma’ aktar minn mara wahda, u li jkunu jafu jmexxu ‘l uliedhom u ‘l djarhom sewwa.
Titus 1:5-9.
Tahtar presbiteri f’kull belt, skond ma ordnajtlek. Kull min ikun mahtur… ikun ragel ta’ mara wahda, u jkollu uliedu jemmnu… L-isqof… ghandu jkun… bniedem li jzomm shih mal-kelma.
Alexander Bonello du Puis
Mar 21st 2010, 11:08
By referring to St. Paul and St. Gorg Preca's inclusion in Dr. Joseph Carmel Chetcuti's book Mgr. Mario Grech is only doing him the great favour of further advertising this unfortunate publication. Meanwhile I would have thought that the Church could do without the additional publicity about paedophile and gay priests. Perhaps Mgr. Grech should consider adopting the maxime " Never complain, never explain " !
renald williams
Mar 21st 2010, 11:05
Paul was not gay... without judging anypone...peace and health to you all
Ma tafux li l-hziena ma jirtux is-saltna t’Alla? La titqarrqux: la z-zienja, … la l-adulteri, la dawk li ghandhom min-nisa, la dawk li jhobbu s-subjien u l-irgiel… hekk kienu x’uhud minnkom… il-gisem mhux ghaz-zina… min jinghaqad ma’ mara zienja jsir gisem wiehed maghha… Aharbu z-zina… min jizni jidneb kontra gismu stess. 1 Korintin 6:9, 11, 13, 16, 18.
Ghaz-zienja, ghal dawk li jiznu ma’ l-irgiel… 1 Timotju 1:10.
ray sacco
Mar 21st 2010, 13:19
yeah........i guess the clergy ministers who were accused of molesting children also preached these words from the altar!
Ian Chetcuti
Mar 21st 2010, 13:28
Just by quoting from a book written by human beings living 2000 years ago does not prove your point!!
J.Cassar
Mar 21st 2010, 10:48
What a sad reactiion by Mons Grech.
His excellency should have the humility of descending from the moral high ground and reflect on the harm that so many Catholic priests have caused to innoncent children throughout the world. I suggest he reads the leading article in today's the Irish Times at irishtimes.com to understand how normal people are reacting to the failures of the Church to expose those in its midst that have abused children. Mons Grech if you expose those priests who may be abusing children, you are not acting as a hero but simply doing your Christian duty.
And what is wrong with having gay saints ? Don't homosexuals have the right to sainthood? And what about treating women as though they are inferior to men by prenvting them form priestly ordination?
An authoritarian church that only considers change fifty years after the rest of society would have changed, will remain offensive to most decent people who have a good relationship with God but who cannot identify themselves with an insensitive and arrogant institution like the Catholic Church.
adrian aquilina
Mar 21st 2010, 10:35
so what if he had been gay? the churches anti gay talk is just so boring..the bishop is always so arrogant..he seems to forget that scientific, and historical facts all point to religion being fake..while religion has no facts or proof to back it up..the pope and the church need to be the subject of an external criminal investigation and all involved in doing or covering up including the pope charged and a long sentance given..religious institutions must be watched by authorities world wide constantly and any of the the evil they have always got away with now they get arrested for..how about an investigation into the wealth of the church and the illigal ways it was taken,then when proved take it away from the church and use it for the poor world wide..it would be the first time the church actually helped,even though forced, without doing something just to benifit themselves..new lesson to the vatican,we are all equal and should not be judged on differances..im not gay but i would not judge..when you do such evil continuesly as the church does then you should be judged..live in the real world not the supernatural nonsense of religion
Louise Vella
Mar 21st 2010, 10:34
The Bishop of Gozo says that he will "take action" if he got to know of abusive behaviour by priests. Yes, but what kind of action? In a radio phone-in on radio RTK last Tuesday, Archbishop Paul Cremona insisted that once he sends the file of an abusive priest to the Vatican and the priest is defrocked, he can do nothing more as the priest is no longer a priest. His conscience is therefore at peace and he does not feel the need to inform the public or the police that a particular priest was dismissed because of sexual abuse. In foreign dioceses the bishop informs the public to avoid a recurrence of the same crimes. They also inform the civil authorities, because this is a crime and not just an offence against the Church's rules.
Mons Cremona seems to forget that once a priest, always a priest and once a paedophile, always a paedophile. In Malta paedophile priests are still protected by a thick veil of omerta` cultivated by both church and state. What a short sighted policy!
Mark Thorogood
Mar 21st 2010, 10:16
Only homophobes would consider it an issue - why does it matter ?