Malta to join appeal against crucifixes decision

Gerry Cowie

Mar 11th 2010, 20:01

W Flynn of Australia tries yet again to convince the Maltese people that they are not Catholic! Since he has admitted in these columns to renouncing his own religion, he clearly has a big chip on his shoulder on this issue. Given that he claims a rich heritage in Malta, why does he continually knock the country he says is so important to him from all those miles away? Sour grapes, Mr Flynn? The myth that the absolute majority of Maltese are NOT (or have NOT been for the last 50 years at least) practicing Catholics can be repeated but will never be fact.

Joe Xuereb

Mar 11th 2010, 13:15

I think it is worth repeating that atheism is not a religion so it does not proselytize. It just states its case and people may listen, or they may not, they may act upon what they hear, or they may not. I am indifferent to all this. Each to his own as we say. By this reasoning, I have no problem with crucifixes. Of course people have the right not to be offended if that is what the cross does to them. But what about the ones to whom the cross is a positive symbol of what they are about? Don't they have rights too? Especially considering that the issue is unfolding within their own territory. I believe that if religion is that importan to the alien some, they should move to a country where they can practise their belief-system without bother or hindrance. Good luck to them says I.
And please, no red-herrings like many RC don't care for the crucifix so why have them. It's at this point that the removal of the crucifixes takes on sinister undertones. It becomes a power struggle with the cross being overwhelmed. Not good news.
I can not put it any simpler.

Joe Xuereb

Mar 11th 2010, 12:55

@ David Caruana. Is it not a pity that you did not bother to recall my first comment on this 'blog'(1day 13hours ago). But that is OK. You do not need to apologize. As a staunch atheist, I don't do power games. I hope your estrangement from the RC faith is working for you Mr. Caruana. Myself, I am doing just fine thank you very much. Because I still care for my country, crucifixes and all.

David Caruana

Mar 11th 2010, 12:14

@ Joe Xuereb : This is MY island too. I am 100% Maltese like you, baptised as Catholic like you, went to Catholic lessons (Muzew) and made it till "Maghzul", went to Catholic schools all my life, and Religion was always my favourite subject, but at some point in time I found that Roman Catholicism (not the life of Jesus of Nazareth) was not fit for me. I will raise my children in a spiritually free environment... they will have the task to choose their own PATH to the Divine, and I want to raise them in MY island. I have no problem with the you or the majority who follow the Roman Catholic creed, but I'm not happy that it is imposed on those who choose a different path.
@ Kelly Elliott : A constitution should protect EVERYONE, even minorities. I am aware that Roman Catholicism is in the maltese constitution, then maybe it's time to change the constitution. "that right applies to everyone else too" - Did I say that people should not believe in Jesus? No! I'm just saying that no creed should have dominance over the rest.

Raymond Sammut

Mar 11th 2010, 11:21

@ Kathy Elliot --"the majority of people..."

Both you and Dr Gonzi need to stop using the word "majority" when it comes to displaying the crucifix in public places. The crucifix is a purely religious representation, and is not subject to the notion of "majority". Pilate subjected the Nazzerene to the majority, because he was a political man and had no understanding whatsoever of what he was doing. You and Dr Gonzi should know a lot better.

"He was certain, Dr Gonzi said, that the people of Malta in its absolute majority did not want crucifixes to be removed from classrooms and other public areas." Dr Gonzi should know that as prime minister he is duty bound to govern in accordance with law. No bill has ever been tabled in Malta's parliament aimed at empowering the Maltese government to use the crucifix for the purpose of controlling how people think in public places. Yet this is what Dr Gonzi is suggesting he should do in defiance of the ECHR decision. Dr Gonzi should come clean with the ECHR, and stop insisting that he should be allowed to continue to use the crucifix for his own political ends.

Joe Xuereb

Mar 11th 2010, 10:05

Here in the UK advertising is about sexualised images, male and female. I have no reason to believe the Malta is any different (I am thinking of billboards, magazines, etc.). Perfectly normal and perfectly acceptable. Some may dislike them but that is a different matter.
Now, this crucifix matter, are we talking about offending the thousands of Hindus/Jews etc. in Malta? No, I think we are talking of offending Muslims. As someone below suggested, anyone who finds the cross offensive should go to any of a hundred countries where there are no crosses. What next? Us being told to curtail our advertisements, entertainlment and so on? And keep our packets of bacon out of sight at the supermarket because they risk throwing up? Such hypocrisy!
And when they are all gone, then, and only then, we can decide whether to retain public crucifixes or not. On our own terms. This is OUR island. So please don't tell me what to do when you obviously have a choice to ease your discomfort. I have rights too lest you forget.
Especially considering I am the legal tenant and you're here under sufferance*.
*passive.permission.resulting.from.lack.of.interference; tolerance, esp. of.something.wrong.or.illegal (usually prec. by on or by).

Kathy Elliot

Mar 11th 2010, 09:57

David Caruana

And yet you live in a constitutionally Christian country, fancy that. It's your right to believe in what you want, of course, but that right applies to everyone else too. And a majority of people here weild the right to be Christian. Turning the other cheek doesn't mean that someone cheeky can just come along and do as pleased, at the detrement of the majority of people; because that is the situation as it is.

David Caruana

Mar 11th 2010, 08:23

I thank everyone for the kind comments... all I can hear from you lot is "Sallbu! Sallbu! Sallbu!"

And please, can someone explain to me what's offensive in "battered half-naked man"? Was Jesus stripped of his clothes when put to the cross? Yes! Was he beaten and battered by the Roman soldiers? Yes! So what is wrong with the words "battered half-naked man"?!

Raymond Sammut

Mar 10th 2010, 23:58

@ M Gat --"Where is the most place you need to remember not to sin,..."

Mr. Gatt, you have an obligation to explain your allegation about "sin". Whether people need any reminding about "sinning" while they are minding their own business in public places (Ceaser's house) isn't for you or anyone else to decide. By your reasoning, many on Malta will continue to have good reason to take the Maltese government to the European Court of Human Rights for such gross abuse of their rights. No government or individual has the right to remind people in a public place "not to sin" as you are claiming.

The display of the crucifix in public places is a gross violation of human rights, and it must be stopped. It's not the crucifix itself that constitutes the violation, but it's people like Mr Gatt who support the government displaying it. The Maltese government has a legal obligation to remove crucifixes from places it has jurisdiction on, or else it can expect public liability from those on Malta who have a daily need to be in these public places, while at the same time wish no reminding from anyone about "sin".

David Caruana

Mar 10th 2010, 13:07

@ Alfred Cassar, Alan Deidun, Colin Stanley, Stefan Desira, R Scicluna:

If you really follow the life of Jesus of Nazareth, please start living by his word…

“Let him who is without sin cast the first stone”

Joe Borg

Mar 10th 2010, 13:07

Let's not forget that pride was the Devil's unoriginal sin. In man, it leads to jealousy, which is the toxin that causes the decomposition of his bones (Proverbs 14:30).

David Caruana

Mar 10th 2010, 13:02

@ Alfred Cassar
The majority in Malta is Catholic but not the ABSOLUTE majority which for me means all the Maltese except none. That is false since there is a large number of Maltese who belong to other faiths.

@ Alan Deidun
I am a believer. You’ve got some nerve if you think that those who are not Catholics are non-believers. The words “battered half-naked man” were not meant to ridicule anything or anyone, I’m sorry you took it that way. That is what the crucifix represents to me. Same as a Bhuddist would refer to one of the images of Buddha as “Hotei” or “Pu-Tai” but you would simply refer to him as “laughing Buddha” or “laughing fat man” - no one should be offended by that

David Caruana

Mar 10th 2010, 13:00

@ Colin Stanley
What are you saying?!?! I was talking about the Crucifix and not about God! I believe in the Gods that are present in the whole of creation, including you and me. I worship the Gods that have been worshipped by our ancestors before Christianity was imported on our island.

@ Stefan Desira
You respect my views?! Really?! Imposing the crucifix on non-Christians does not really seem respectful. I am not trying to impose my religious symbols on you, but I don’t expect your to be imposed on me in public places either. A truly secular country cannot do that. “Absolute majority” – again you’re wrong. It is a majority but not absolute. Absolute implies 100%, and even if I was the only non-Christian in Malta, the term “absolute” would still be false.

@ R Scicluna
Thank you, God bless you too

Ignatius Harrison

Mar 10th 2010, 10:00

Dr Mr Caruana,
In your comments you exercised your right of freedom of expression but in doing so, you don't have to be offensive. My initial anger soon turned to pity for you when I realized what a torment it must be to wake up every morning and everywhere you look, you see the symbols of a 'minority' of Pharisees and hypocrites.

M Gatt

Mar 10th 2010, 09:41

To Ramon Casha & Robert Agius:

Are you suggesting we take the crucifix off church tops too, as they are always visible from the streets, which are used by Catholics or not!!

To Raymond Sammut:

Where is the most place you need to remember not to sin, keep peaceful & calm due to stress, unjustice or heavy work loads? Ceaser's house or God's house? Your answer is where the crucifix should be!!

To David Caruana:

An absolute majority means "the most" & not "all".

F.Y.I.: Catholics "turn the other cheek" but they don't turn their backs to their Master and Teacher, the One who gave His life for our salvation.

And please note that Jesus is half naked & battered on the cross because people who disbeleived in Him (like some) beat & forced Him towards that situation & was not of His own will.
Who is the Pharisee & hypocrite now?

emanuel debono

Mar 10th 2010, 09:20

May I refer to the contribution by David Caruana who spoke about the image of a 'batterd half naked man'. May I please remind him that this Man has an identity which is historically ascertained by th egospels and by non Christian literature. He is Jesus Christ the founder not only of Catholicism but of all Christian Churches. I will not be apologetic but I would like to remind Mr. David Caruana that the figure of Christ is constitutiuonally accepted in Malta, as the Catholic Religion enjoys a place in our constitution as article number 2. This is not an anachronism dating back to 1974 , as this position has been de facto reiterated by all our elected representatives who unanimously came out in support of Italy's stand against the court decision.

maria debono

Mar 10th 2010, 09:13

Mr caruana, you are entitled to your opinion. However whether you believe it or not, that Half naked Man is God made Man for our salvation. In the near future He is going to judge you and me. I hope that He would find me worthy of the Kingdom of Heaven.Lord Jesus forgive us our sins.

David Farrugia

Mar 10th 2010, 08:25

It seems that the absolute majority of the people posting here do not agree with David Caruana. What absolute majority of Maltese were you referring to Mr. Caruana? Lol

With your silly argument, we should now remove the names of our streets, hospitals, schools, and even any monuments which bear any Roman Catholic reference!!!! All this because it may offend some people. Why is it offending people now?

Proud to be Maltese and proud to be Roman Catholic!!

Charles Caligari Conti

Mar 10th 2010, 07:37

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
1 Corinthians 1:18

Proud to be Maltese !!

Ramon Casha

Mar 10th 2010, 05:26

@V.Micallef: No, she is not alone. The classroom in a public school is not the place to display a crucifix. I would have no objection to crucifixes worn as personal adornments, or on one's personal belongings, but the classroom should be for all pupils, Catholic or not.

Lawrence Turner

Mar 10th 2010, 00:49

I hate this. If people are offended by religius figures then they should remove themselves from the situation and not create an uproar and offend everyone else. If they don't like Catholic symbolism-then move to a country where they don't have them.

William P Flynn

Mar 10th 2010, 00:24

A religious diversion for unpopular Catholic governments in trouble...how novel.

The myth that the absolute majority of Maltese are (or have been for the last 50 years at least) practicing Catholics can be repeated but will never be fact.

John Smith

Mar 10th 2010, 00:18

It is more important that we first perceive the spiritual in the icon. In other words, as St. Paul says to the Corinthians (2 Cor. 3:3) Christians are the epistle of Christ written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tablets of stone, but in tablets of the heart.

Joseph Ellis

Mar 10th 2010, 00:14

There are scores of human rights cases before the European Court, some of them concerning serious human rights abuses, but it seems that Malta never deemed it appropriate to intervene except in the Lautsi case.

It is noteworthy that the PM, just like the Italian government in its submissions, does not refer to the religious connotations of the crucifix but to its social and cultural characteristics. Remarkable.

In his previous interventions on this case, the PM argued that all religious symbols should be visible in public buildings. The ECHR, in its first decision, cogently argued against the exhibition of any religious symbols, regardless of origin, in public schools as the state has got a duty not to indoctrinate its citizens, especially the most vulnerable ones, in favour of one creed or other.

I am no prophet but I dare say that the first judgment will not be reversed in a jiffy.

The PM and his government would do better to remove those laws which have been found to contravene human rights provisions instead of resorting to such quite meaningless ploys.

R Scicluna

Mar 9th 2010, 23:38

David Caruana's comment below is shameful and insulting... you're a disgrace

Robert Agius

Mar 9th 2010, 23:28

I suggest they remove any symbols relating to any religion (this includes crucifixes, burqa etc.) from all public places and hopefully there will be an end to the crusades.

Sorry if you disagree. I love you anyway.

Stefan Desira

Mar 9th 2010, 23:22

@David Caruana: Don't be ridiculous! At least have some respect for the principles of others. I respect your views and don't force you to believe, but please also respect the ABSOLUTE MAJORITY - whether you like it or not - of the Maltese! And by the way.... don't worry, God still LOVES you as you are... he died FOR YOU, that's how much he loves you!

colin stanley

Mar 9th 2010, 23:17

@David Caruana.I suppose that the majority of people in the world believe,in a God !!! whatever their religon, can you tell us what you believe in. I would like to congratulate our politicians for the stand they took, I hope that they don't give in to pressure.

Raymond Sammut

Mar 9th 2010, 23:17

"...a country which has upheld particular values and traditions for centuries should not be obliged to change them just because an individual objects to them."(Gonzi)

This is Dr Gonzi again twisting historical facts. The crucifix in the classroom of government schools isn't a value or a tradition held for centuries in Malta as Gonzi is claiming. For centuries, the Maltese people kept the crucifix in the chapel. The use of the crucifix in the classroom, and in public places in general, only started less than a hundred years ago under the government of Mussolini in Italy, and later in Malta. Gonzi would also know that the crucifix should be removed from public places not because of an individual objects to it. It should be removed because the crucifix belongs in God's house and not in Caesar's house.

And no-one should be fooled by Dr Muscat either. Muscat is simply being pragmatic, and desperate to defeat Gonzi at the next election. Muscat is prepared to sacrifice the people's capacity to see things the right way so long as he doesn't risk votes. Both Gonzi and Muscat are only concerned about their own political skin and not about the crucifix.

ALAN DEIDUN

Mar 9th 2010, 23:11

@David Caruana - your comments are appalling, odious and despicable to say the least - you solicit tolerance towards non-believers like yourself and than you ridicule the cross and thus offend believers by using the term "battered, self-naked man"? I am really sad for you since you have never had the opportunity to really understand what the crucifix stands - i.e. sacrifice for the greater benefit of others. At least dont let your crass ignorance turn into offensive intolerance.

Joe Xuereb

Mar 9th 2010, 23:10

I recently took the witness box and was asked to swear on the Book. As if! I declined and made some other declaration. My world did not stop spinning.
Now, this cross in public thing. It doesn't offend me. It leaves me cold. That said, if the presence of the crucifix violates the rights on non-Christians, don't Christians have rights? So you see, being an atheist affords me a clarity of vision, a balanced view. The removal of the crucifix, the symbol of a people however unholy they may be, has dark undertones which I do not like and which is most unwelcome. Removal of the Cross is the beginning of a slippery slope indeed.
I have no axe to grind. But, to not respect the tenets of one's religion is one thing. Officially relinquishing that religion is a different matter altogether. Considering there is another (religion) that is clamouring to replace our one.

Colette Farrugia Bennett

Mar 9th 2010, 22:44

The cross is the symbol of the Christian/Catholic faith and not of the Maltese population. I believe in diversity and respect, however I am yet to see respect towards other faiths! The removal of crucifixes gives space for respect of other faiths....and not imposing one faith onto everyone

C. Schembri

Mar 9th 2010, 22:32

What better proof of the Crucifix's power... Not only is it a symbol of God's love, but it is now the medium which joins the major political parties of Malta.

Well done to both PN (Govt) & PL!

Alfred Cassar

Mar 9th 2010, 22:05

@David Caruana
"Dear Dr.Gonzi, please be aware that Catholics ARE NOT the absolute majority of Malta. There are some of us, 100% born and bred Maltese, who are not Catholics!"

Do you know what Majority means. One sentence contradicting the previous one. Where did you bring this information, that Catholics are not majority in Malta?. However in the next sentence you seem to be back on earth and corrected your mistake in your sentence as you said "...some of us...are not Catholics"

David Caruana

Mar 9th 2010, 21:02

"Dr Gonzi said, that the people of Malta in its absolute majority did not want crucifixes to be removed from classrooms and other public areas."

Dear Dr.Gonzi, please be aware that Catholics ARE NOT the absolute majority of Malta. There are some of us, 100% born and bred Maltese, who are not Catholics! Some of us would not like to take oath over a half-naked battered man and would not like our children to be exposed to such gore in their classrooms.

I thought Catholics should "turn the other cheek" but here evidently they are not even ready to give up a symbol... I guess the world is back to 2,000 years ago - full of Pharisees and hypocrites!

Ivor Ramsden

Mar 9th 2010, 20:30

Sincere congratulations to the Maltese Government for making a stand on this.

V.Micallef

Mar 9th 2010, 20:00

That leaves only Daphne Caruana Galizia against the Cross being exhibited in the classrooms. The reason for that lonely position: the crucifix, she said, used to scare and frighten her no end when she was a child. Would you believe it? What did she swear on in court, by the way?

Laurence Grima

Mar 9th 2010, 20:00

Rightfully so , because the cross is more than part of our values . It is also a part of our daily lives, from the time most of us start our day up to the moment we go to sleep at night . The cross is the symbol of our faith

Franco Farrugia

Mar 9th 2010, 19:57

@ Maria Fenech: I 'kind of' agree with you. However, it is a very sorry situation that our Christian values practically stop with the crucifix hanging on the wall. The way things are going in the various scenarios that we are witnessing, in Malta, the values tht come out of that Cross are barely recognisable! And if you are practical, you know what I mean.

N.Cortis

Mar 9th 2010, 19:42

Dear Maria Fenech-------are you living in space !!!!!!!! If you follow parliamentary news PL and PN agree on many topics and laws !!!!!! Grow up and don't take notice of politicians on T V programs which their only aim is to inject hatred in the general public!!!!! These kind of programs are aired ----as we say in Maltese "Ghall gallarija"---in other words just to promote themselves and their party !!!!

Jeremy J Camilleri

Mar 9th 2010, 19:20

Oh well...just goes to show how saintly our politicians have become....one wonders why Malta isn't an island paradise free from corruption and greed....

Maria Fenech

Mar 9th 2010, 19:08

Who would have thought that the day that both PN and PL agree on something would come. I'm kind of glad its on values and hertitage.