Ornis committee recommends spring hunting - BirdLife attacks OPM

Kenneth Cassar

Mar 6th 2010, 20:33

@ Sylvana Zarb Darmanin:

Instead of going on and on with your newly discovered buzz-phrase "going round in circles" or its more childish version "dawra durella", how about meeting my challenges.

It is true that compared to you, I do consider myself a giant intellectually. And why would you think I would "shy away" from you? What would you do to me? Slap me?

I have told you countless times that, unlike you, I don't say in private what I wouldn't dare say in public (in written words), which explains why you always try to avoid replying to my challenges.

Yes, I truly have made a decision to avoid futile discussions with you "face to face", since it is obviously a waste of time. Very far from intellectually stimulating.

Sylvana Zarb Darmanin

Mar 6th 2010, 17:25

Mr Manuel Borg,you have come to realise that Kenneth Cassar is not worth the bother! He is always going round in circles without presenting any factual arguments. Miskin ma min jaqbad! If you had to take a look at past online comments you will realise what I mean. He considers himself to be a giant when hiding behind a computer monitor, yet shies away when confronted in person!

Kenneth Cassar

Mar 6th 2010, 16:27

@ Manwel Borg:

"If you won’t waste any time arguing to the contrary, it's because you cannot argue against the facts".

No. Actually it is because we both claim that we have the true facts, so we're getting nowhere. I think I gave you too much credit.

"One fact which you are unable to accept is that the Maltese government, and any government for that matter, has a right to simply apply derogations without obtaining the permission or approval of the EU Commission before doing so".

That's what I am talking about. I insist that you are misinformed.

"So, goodbye, Kenneth Cassar. From now on, I’ll take your comments with the proverbial pinch of salt".

Goodbye Manwel Borg. From now on, I'll consider you in the same league as Sylvana Zarb Darmanin.

Manwel Borg

Mar 5th 2010, 17:07

@ Kenneth Cassar - If you won’t waste any time arguing to the contrary, it's because you cannot argue against the facts. One fact which you are unable to accept is that the Maltese government, and any government for that matter, has a right to simply apply derogations without obtaining the permission or approval of the EU Commission before doing so. So, goodbye, Kenneth Cassar. From now on, I’ll take your comments with the proverbial pinch of salt.

Kenneth Cassar

Mar 5th 2010, 07:03

@ Manwel Borg:

"Spring Hunting was NOT illegal, and those black T-shirts were NOT factual at the time".

If you want to believe that, I won't waste any time arguing to the contrary.

"The reason is that the government applied a derogation permitting spring hunting, and hunters hunted legally".

Perhaps I should remind you that the EU started infringement procedures against Malta at the time.

"And, sorry to remind you, the government intends to apply a derogation, not apply for one".

Again, believe that if you wish.

Johnny Xerri

Mar 4th 2010, 19:24

.@Paul Barret,

I never suggested turning a blind eye. However, as in all forms of crime it is the police who administer the law. That is why we have an Administrative Law Enforcement. If needs be yes I will contribute to helping them if they question me, or I see something which needs to be reported.

What I do not accept is that you seem to imply that hunters are to control poachers. When you said "Keeping within the rules, stop the poachers/law-breakers and there is no problem"

Are you implying that if some poacher, who I don’t know breaks the law I have a problem? Then my dear since we are all male by your yard stick we should all have a problem when a rapist does his deed.

Of course I condemn the rapist, poacher, drug dealer, ....but I can never be held accountable for someone's actions.

If on the other hand you deem it fit please take a visit to the correctional facility and join the other males. I am sure that just as much as there is a hunter like me, there is a male like you.

Manwel Borg

Mar 4th 2010, 14:30

@ Kenneth Cassar
Spring Hunting was NOT illegal, and those black T-shirts were NOT factual at the time.
The reason is that the government applied a derogation permitting spring hunting, and hunters hunted legally. It was only in September 2009 that the ECJ found fault with the government for failing to abide by the derogation conditions. Still you cannot say spring hunting was illegal.
And, sorry to remind you, the government intends to apply a derogation, not apply for one.

S Vella

Mar 4th 2010, 14:26

Well done and Thank You FKNK for fighting for our rights to get back Spring Hunting which was banned and stolen from our lives and will never be compensated! We can say that thanks to you we are not 2nd class EU citizens altough we were given a guarantee that we will continue hunting for Turtle Doves and quails.
Birdlife I can imagine how you feel after winning some battles but loosing the war, but remember what you said, that you do not want the abolishment of hunting and you are not against hunters, you are against poachers, and you were ready to accept the ECJ ruling, so please be credible and learn from your past that all your lies and exagerations got you no were! finally the truth came out...
You infiltrated many strategic places and influenced some people in power but NO ONE CAN CHANGE FACTS AND AS WE ALWAYS SAID AUTUMN SEASON IS NOT SUSTAINABLE, AND PEOPLE WHO REASON WITH THEIR BRAINS NOT WITH THEIR HEART GAVE US THE RIGHT TO SPRINGHUNT AGAIN.
I WISH ALL MY FELLOW HUNTERS A GOOD SEASON AND A GOOD CATCH TO MAKE UP FOR THE PAST SEASONS, AND ABIDE THE LAW!!

Jurgen Bugeja

Mar 4th 2010, 13:48

Its time to take off your T-shirts guys,Moira Delia,Ray Callejja,Borg Cardona and all Co!!!!
Spring hunting is legal!!!!!!!!!!!Thanks again FKNK and welcome back Spring Hunting.

Sylvana Zarb Darmanin

Mar 4th 2010, 13:09

Mr HFA, thanks for enlightening us about bag-limits. Actually, I expect that the Government approves a reasonable bag-limit, as opposed to the ridiculous 1.3 turtle-dove bag-limit for each Maltese Hunter, as reported.

Franco Farrugia, indeed it is “a day of shame” – a day when the anti’s persistent untruths came to nothing!! “It is obscene” of you to pick on me whenever I comment. This is a negative trait in the teaching profession. God forbid! Just imagine having a teacher picking on a student from his classroom!

R Curmi, being insultive will not win you an argument – as can be seen from this report. I assure you that the many law-abiding hunters I know do not fit into your shameful description of them! Far from it - they are not capable of stooping so low as you have done!

J Brownie and C Mallia, I suggest you take a look at the votes obtained by AD and other candidates who declared themselves against hunting. While at it, you should compare these with the votes obtained by pro-hunting candidates!

Edward Camilleri

Mar 4th 2010, 12:45

What a farce! Who is going to control how many and which birds the hunters will kill? The representatives of the hunting organisations themselves have stated in the past that the bag count given by hunters cannot be trusted, because this number is very low than actual birds shot.

Does anyone in his right mind think that this is what the ECJ has meant by 'limited' spring hunting season? I hope the EU will come down hard on Malta to control this hunting frenzy.

Karol spiteri

Mar 4th 2010, 12:23

SPRING HUNTING is back.... welldone FKNK for your work i think birdlife malta will find death birds from tommorow to show them on the media and to brainwash people!!

Kenneth Cassar

Mar 4th 2010, 11:26

@ Joe Camilleri:

Spring Hunting was illegal. And it still is, until (or unless) the government applies for a derogation (with conditions) and it is granted by the EU.

Those black T-shirts were factual at the time.

Jurgen Bugeja

Mar 4th 2010, 11:18

@Franco Farrugia
Franco issa ieqaf isma minni you lost the battle with BLM,decision is taken!!!
If you want I invite you to come with me hunting during Spring,you don't have nothing to do after 31st March you can come!!! You can enjoy Spring hunting with us!!

hENRY FENECH AZZOPARDI

Mar 4th 2010, 11:01

What a shame Birdlife once again went public. They did not have the decency to wait for an ORNIS official announcment. Each member of ORNIS was contacted to leak the outcome but all of us refused.

Birdlife accused the government of using ORNIS as a smoke screen. This is totally unfair becuase the government has expressed his intentions of opening spring hunting in parliament. It could have still opened the season without the ORNIS consent. There were times when the season was closed abruptly without ORNIS advise.

The fact that we discussed the MEPA proposals without having them circulated proves that Birdlife could not have made them public as it did with the FKNK proposals. They have themselves to blame.

I am convinced that this is not the end for Birdlife and we hunters have to be extremely vigil for any possible framing that Birdlife will be plotting to reach their aim of abolishing hunting.

We have to be four square to supervise that the law is respected. It is us against poachers. There is no room for illegality. Let the cabs come but to be credible they have to be accommpanied by the police to justify their findings. goodluck

D.FENECH

Mar 4th 2010, 10:52

@ J.Brownie

The results of the last MEP election just prove you right !!! LOL . The anti-hunting contestants managed to get only the votes of their relatives, while those who supported the hunting fraternity cause are all in the European parliament. Do you think his is a coincidence ?!!!

I hope you are not a UK citizen, where hunting is permitted ALL YEAR ROUND, and you are trying to deprive Maltese law abiding hunters form their rights. The ECJ did not !! I know, it is a very sour pill to swollow.

C Mallia

Mar 4th 2010, 10:42

Your environmental credentials has now gone totally down the drain, Dr Gonzi. You may gain the hunters' votes (though its very doubtfull anyway) but you will lose the green votes and no green MP you may be able to get on your side is going to be capable to convince true environmentalists to vote for you.

Dr Gonzi, the least you can do is that if now Malta looses face again with the EU on this issue, the hunters are to pay for any eventual fines. For the public to pay for a blood-hobby of a minority is shamefull.

Joe Camilleri

Mar 4th 2010, 10:30

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Yahoooo-hee!!

where are those 8 NGOs that stated that SPRING HUNTING was Illegal. No wonder that the general public does not even take care of what you say. Is this how credible you are!!!

And those 'personalities' (sic) that gullible enough to belive BLM and wore those black t-shirts saying that spring hunting is illegal???

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Antoine Grima

Mar 4th 2010, 10:30

Mr R Curmi,Thanks for telling us how stupid us hunters are.May i remind you that it's you and all the wise people around you that have created this mess.Now it's your mess because we have sorted ours out.I'd also like to say to Mr Jerry Borg that nobody is stopping him from enjoying the spring migration,i know i will.There is only 2 species to be hunted and only for 3 weeks.Migration is a lot longer than that and there is loads of other different birds migrating.What he really wanted to say is that he want us out of the way.As always with people like this, it's ME ME ME ME

J.Brownie

Mar 4th 2010, 10:20

Dear politicians - please note that the non-hunting vote makes much less noise but is largely invisible and much more powerful - wait and see -- carry on with the massacre for now , the critical moment arrives too.

Kenneth Cassar

Mar 4th 2010, 10:13

@ Sylvana Zarb Darmanin:

"The truth has come out. SPRING HUNTING IS LEGAL!".

Its not that simple. The ruling says that the Government may apply for a derogation and that a derogation can be given provided it follows certain conditions.

Therefore, a more accurate statement would be that Spring Hunting can be legal. It all depends on whether the Maltese Government applies for a derogation (giving the terms), and whether the EU approves the derogation.

I'm not saying that a derogation will not be given (it probably will). All I am saying (and this is what I have been saying for years) is that the final say rests with the EU.

Now you may reply by saying that I am "going around in circles". I'd be surprised if you don't.

Chris Finch

Mar 4th 2010, 10:05

So now the hunters are full square behind the Ornis committee. It wasn't so long ago that they were discrediting the committee because it wasn't agreeing with them.

Funny how they change their principles according to if they get their own way or not.

At least we can be sure of one thing. This will be the last spring hunting season. The ECJ won't be swayed by a few noisy children who want to shoot birds just as it wasn't last time when it ruled AGAINST Malta for opening the 2004-2007 seasons. This time a large fine is coming our way.

Thanks a lot hunters, you have just made life harder for every Maltese citizen. Great public spirit from you.

Paul Barrett

Mar 4th 2010, 09:40

@ Johnny Xerri

Reference your "The citizen only fits in the abiding part of the equation".

Fortunately there are many citizens that are not prepared to just sit back and turn a blind eye under the umbrella of 'See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil' syndrome under the premise of 'not my job'.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Edmund Burke

Franco Farrugia

Mar 4th 2010, 09:09

@ Kevin Galea: When you, and politicians, no less, resort to such baseless attacks, it shows that you run out of ammunition that you use against Mr Raine. You seem to forget that we are one world, one village ... it appears that this concept is too much for you to understand. Why don't you go and say the same things re' airports and planes to all the foreign businesspeople in Malta and in Gozo?
@ Mr Cardona: There cannot be enough 'extremism' as you erroneously call it, when it comes to life - bird life ... BirdLIFE!
@ Edward Zammit: 'Justice' at last ... but for the birds? Undoubtedly, you don't care about them!

M. Cardona

Mar 4th 2010, 08:53

@ Birdlife Malta

Once more BirdLife Malta Macchiavellian ethics at the fore? When will you tone down your extremist perspectives? In my humble opinion your extreme inflexibility to the changing scenario will prove your own undoing. And deep down in your organisational conscience I am sure that many know that the circumstances have changed whilst your (BLM) approach and redress has not been synchronized accordingly!

With a whiff of common sense one easily perceives that elements within your organisation are for reasons which may easily be inferred, persisting with a rigid and extremist approach. This utter disregard to the shift in scenario is proving very damaging to all and sundry (and that also includes your own (BLM) organisation) within both the local sphere and the international one.

After all, one may be forgiven for assuming that effective environmental protection in line with today's circumstances, ought to take precedence over networked funds and salaries

I believe there is a definite need for a BLM organisational reboot with refreshed priorities, a reset and much needed balance between personal and organisational agendas and last but definitely not least a modicum of ethical approach within your organisation.

Regards

r curmi

Mar 4th 2010, 08:46

@ Franco Farrugia: They worked for it and they got it so piontless stomping your feet and saying otherwise if Gonzi gave it to them. Now all we have to do is sit back and wait. If history repeats itself its the usual massacre regardless what hunters in this blog say that its not such a big case, and then fully expect Gonzi to close down a mistake in the 1st place.

or

The hunters really have reformed themselves and in order to save their ever getting hard hobby are ready to take a stand report for real the wrong doers, for who better then them can do it, and just have a peacful rightfully theirs hunting season without much incidents. Saying that its expected you cant curb full evil but can help to decrease it.


But since hunters are maltese and many ofthem not among the most smart or modest of us like teh rubber jolly guy on youtube Id say the former is our reality to come unfortunetaly

Jerry borg

Mar 4th 2010, 08:39

Isn't the 5 month open season, September-january enough for the hunetrs? Can't we hve the spring migration for us live-bird lovers? Appeasment is what destroys justice. This will always be remebered when we go for the 5 year vote. NO VOTE.

MARK MIFSUD BONNICI

Mar 4th 2010, 08:37

Franco Farrugia.

"When this means the killing of birds just to pass the time"

WOULD YOU HAVE VOTED FOR EUROPE HAD YOU KNOWN HUNTING IS ACCEPTED THROUGHOUT ALL IT'S MEMBER STATES AND ALL EUROPEAN "PASS THE TIME" HUNTING?

WELL IT SEEMS AS IF YOU HAVE.

SO WHY SHOULD MATTERS BE DIFFERNET IN MALTA?

Franco Farrugia

Mar 4th 2010, 08:25

@ Johnny Xerri: And what is the difference between a hunter and a poacher? In Malta, they are one and the same. Tell me, please: who is going to control what hunter X shoots at? Tell me, who is going to check how many birds hunter Y has shot? And tell me, who is going to check that the law is not being broken and abused? And who is going to check that the 'season' will close when it should legally be closed? Shots are still to be heard and will continue to be heard in certain areas - the majority of the people in Malta and Gozo will silently vouch to that.
Your claims to the rights of a hunter, not to be 'disturbed', are, at worst, insulting to the people in general.

Franco Farrugia

Mar 4th 2010, 07:20

A day of shame - that is what I call it. How can honest people wish an 'enjoyable' huntng season to hunters? When this means the killing of birds just to pass the time? It is obscene. But what could Birdlife expect from this Governmet or from any government, for that matter? Let this Government be seen to appease those people who would have ruined the future of our country by not voting for Malta joining the EU, simply because their 'pastime' would have been somehow controlled! Such is the academic and formed interest these people have in the welfare of our country!

Johnny Xerri

Mar 4th 2010, 06:06

@ R Curmi,

Its not hunters but poachers who shoot at anyhting.
They will do so during both open and closed season.

If you want respect from hunters, just dont enter private land.

When accessong public land try to limit yourself to the nature reserves, 50mtrs from roads and beaches and 200mtrs from buildings. Consider that if a hunter has arived at 4 or 5 am in an area, he cannot be distured, for the simple fact that he cannot have access to all public land and relocate himself in the bird watching zones. On the otherhand you could. Obviously and needless to say if you arrive before the hunter even if the land is not reserved for birdwatchers, then he has no right to tell you off.

I have had many experiences with bird watchers in my 10years of hunting. To be fair in public land common sense prevailed. If I arrived first I would tell them 'please listen I was in this area. Can you move to an area in which you willl not disturb me'. Most do.

Private land is another thing I have had individuals persisting that the land was not private and hurling back abuse.

Kevin Galea

Mar 4th 2010, 06:06

Andre Raine please enjoy APRIL with all MALTESE HUNTERS, no one requested you to manage our environment and traditions (WE MALTESE KNOW HOW TO DO THAT)
If you don't agree with Maltese rules don't bother we have a beautiful airport with many planes and we have ships too
WELL DONE FKNK

MARK MIFSUD BONNICI

Mar 4th 2010, 00:24

Birdlife Malta arrogance will hopefully meet Dr. Gonzi's "firm hands".

We await more arrogance and deceit now that what Birdlife termed as "illegal throughout the EU" has finally been proved legal.

Is Dr. Gonzi going to tolerate any more of this nonsense that primarily is having a detrimental effect on Malta's international image?

Hunters expect a firm hand in dealing with any illegal hunting activity but also the same firm hand dealing with damaging and deceitful actions being contemplated by those that oppose the course of justice.

Edward Zammit

Mar 3rd 2010, 23:12

AAAhh !!!!! Justice at last !

Johnny Xerri

Mar 3rd 2010, 22:34

@ Paul Barret,

Please note that yes we have aright to our hobby.
We have an obligation and moral duty to not only abide, but to respect rules.
However, I am not a policeman.

In a nutshell, since I am not a policeman its not my competance to control poachers.
Just as much as it is not my competence to control the drivers I encounter on my way to work. Just as much as it is not my competance to control my collegues when they take a bit to long when out on an unofficial smoking break.

In a democratic country we have the administrative(the govt and parliament), the executive (that is he civil service) and the judiciary. The governmnet enacts laws, the executive transmits these to the people and takes to court the law breakers, the judiciary judges.

The citizen only fits in the abiding part of the equation.

Alex Ellul

Mar 3rd 2010, 22:10

Now we will see the usual thing. Birds of prey, flying in pairs, trying to reach the european mainland to breed and raise their annual single chick, being shot down by the followers of Hubert the hunter. It's the same old story. When the first protected bird is shot down, the open season should go with it.

Henry Fenech Azzopardi

Mar 3rd 2010, 22:07

Dear All,
Please be informed that as an ORNIS Committee Member I am still bound by the confidentiality of the meeting and consequently I cannot argue the comments put forward by Birdlife.

However I can say that their comments are totally unture and their presence was negative from beginning to end. Bil Malta nghidu jew nilghab jew inhassar.

Obviously the depth of research put in by members were not in line with the Birdlife agenda of abolishing hunting and consequently all that was said in favour of Spring Hunting is considered as farcial to Birdlife.

The figures provided by Birdlife are irrelevent at this stage becuase it is the government that determines the limit bag, which is atttached to special hunting licence holders. These figures were only mentioned by Birdlife to create an imaginary friction between Mepa and FKNK.

On the contrary their seems to be a consensus between both parties and an agreement is possible to allow a reasonable bag per hunter.

The Government will deliver, under a derogation, a very much welcomed spring huntiing, and will be responsible enough to keep within the frame work to avoid an EC involvement.

There is no place for an illegality.

Andrew Gatt

Mar 3rd 2010, 21:55

Ah, now it's the Ornis Committee that's farcical. Well, nothing new from Birdlife.

After all, according to them or by implication by them, the ALE are farcical, the judiciary's court sentences are farcical, the Government is farcical at enforcing environmental laws, all proposed Ghadira Road changes are farcical, wind turbines are farcical, any data not suppplied by them is farcical......... We wonder what's next. Air Malta after the next bird strike? Enemalta because one or two disoriented seagulls a year are disoriented by light pollution? The ECJ?

And if the FKNK put proposals on the agenda shortly before the meeting, well, good for them. Birdlife Malta TOTALLY DISRESPECTED a joint FACE-BIRDLIFE INTERNATIONAL agreement to respect the ECJ ruling on Spring Hunting whatever the outcome. Prosit, x'kelma ghandkom! FKNK simply forestalled another convenient "leak" of the agenda because Birdlife's behaviour in similar situations in the past has been objectionable in the extreme.

Birdlife have become far too extremist and obstructive in what they say and do and in the ways and means they adopt to do it. So implausibly extremist that the contradictions, untruths, half-truths and fantasies are being exposed for what ther are.

Sylvana Zarb Darmanin

Mar 3rd 2010, 21:32

Andre Raine, you have been trying to lead people by the nose for far too long! The truth has come out. SPRING HUNTING IS LEGAL! Contrary to what BLM and Co have been arguing, the ECJ Ruling of last September was in favour of the Maltese hunters after all! Thank God, I was never one to blindfolded believe what BLM have been saying all along!

You know what I consider farcical Andre Raine?

1. When an organisation tries to win a argument by stating untruths;
2. When an organisation undertakes to respect an ECJ ruling and then does completely the opposite;
3. When an organisation asks personalities to pose with black t-shirts depicting untruths;
4. When an organisation acts in the manner reported above.

Andre Raine, stop your scaremongering about fines! You under-estimate us. The Maltese people are capable of applying a derogation in a proper manner! You have been trying all along to place the Maltese Hunters in an inferior position to their EU counter-parts. Well, we Maltese will not let anyone over-stepping us!

Finally, I augur an enjoyable Spring Hunting Season to all Maltese Hunters!

Paul Barrett

Mar 3rd 2010, 21:29

If it is legal then the hunters have every right to enjoy their sport. Keeping within the rules, stop the poachers/law-breakers and there is no problem.

The question now is whether the Commission will accept the limitations recommended as falling into the terms and spirit of Article 9. sub-para c. "(c) to permit, under strictly supervised conditions and on a selective basis, the capture, keeping or other judicious use of certain birds in small numbers."

Stephen Baldacchino

Mar 3rd 2010, 20:57

So MEPA is saying that the hunters can go hunting for two weeks but if I'm correct please correct me if I'm wrong each hunter can shoot for 1 (one) DOVE . To be exact 1.311647 (22,298 doves divided by 17000 hunters)approximatly, wooooooooow that's really a good deal when other countries have an excuse that they are pests and they can shoot them all year round and no bag limit. And if some one wants to know which country shoots for doves and pigeons all year that country is ENGLAND.............

R Curmi

Mar 3rd 2010, 20:51

Kudos to the hunters for their win. Now all we have to do is wait until they start killing any birds protected or not that comes in sight as usual.

But for those few law abiding hunters that REALLY respect not only the law but also nature and that shoot on only the supposed species then I say to you happy hunting. And let people like me who like to photograph free bird and alive in peace if you want us to leave you alone

Johnny Xerri

Mar 3rd 2010, 20:38

So I can finally say:

'Justice has been done, the EU referendum and Election guarantee will be fulfilled'