African genital cutters face fatwa, jail
Efforts to eradicate female genital circumcision in West Africa have taken a step forward with a fatwa against the practice in Mauritania and sanctions in Niger against mothers who subject their daughters to it.
Known also as female genital mutilation (FGM), the tradition involves removing external parts of a girl's genitals and sometimes narrowing the vaginal opening. Bleeding, disease and problems in urinating and childbirth can result for millions of victims each year in Africa and the Middle East.
In many parts of West Africa, cutting has been presented as a religious obligation for Muslim women, leading many to believe that if they are not circumcised they are unclean and that their prayers will not be heard.
"Are there texts in the Koran that clearly require that thing? They do not exist," the secretary general of the Forum of Islamic Thought in Mauritania, Cheikh Ould Zein, told Reuters of the fatwa signed by 34 imams and scholars.
"On the contrary, Islam is clearly against any action that has negative effects on health. Now that doctors in Mauritania unanimously say this practice threatens health, it is therefore clear that Islam is against it," he added.
The fatwa, or religious ruling, was signed on January 12 but became widely known only this week in a country where some 72 percent of women are estimated to have undergone FGM and where practitioners charge an average 25 euros a time.
"The fact that the religious leaders in Mauritania are standing up and doing this is quite amazing," said Molly Melching, executive director of Tostan, a Senegal-based organisation working in Mauritania on FGM.
MOTHERS FACE PUNISHMENT
The fatwa in itself is not binding, and would not have an impact on those communities practising FGM for centuries-old cultural reasons not linked to the arrival of Islam in Africa.
Yet it follows other tentative indications of a trend away from FGM in West Africa.
A Save the Children-backed campaign has seen 40 villages in Mali abandon the practice in a country where over 80 percent of the women have undergone FGM. In Senegal, the practice has been widely stopped since a law against it was passed in 1999.
In a sign that authorities in Niger are implementing a 2003 ban, 45 mothers in the southwestern town of Kollo received fines and suspended jail sentences of eight months this week for complicity in allowing their daughters to be cut.
Welfare specialist Moussa Hassane told Reuters that aside from the usual forms of excision, practioners in Niger used the technique to facilitate sexual relations with child brides.
Niger has one of the highest rates of early marriage in the world, with nearly 60 percent of women married between 15-19.
UN agency UNICEF statistics show a sharp fall in Niger in the incidence of FGM in the past decade masking stark ethnic differences, with three percent of Arab women circumcised but nearly two-thirds of some other tribal groups.
"A law is not what will change a social norm. For it to be sustainable it has to come from the people, a decision made by the people, because they really believe in it," Melching said.
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D Phillips
Feb 2nd 2010, 10:35
@Mary Smith,
Mary, the age of consent is different in different countries. The example you used is classed as paedophilia,in some countries however not in others. I understand that the age of consent in the Vatican City is 12 years old, (and many other European countries range from 13 years old and upwards) therefore in the Vatican city this would not be classed as paedophilia. Therefore your assertion that it is paedophilia in “our culture” is incorrect, and the insinuation that this sort of thing happens only in Muslim countries is also incorrect. But then again, you never seem to let a small detail like factual correctness get in the way of any of your statements.
D Phillips
Jan 31st 2010, 22:49
@Emma Xerri
“The Popes have set themselves up to be the only, supreme moral authority on Earth and have the authority to speak for all men and for all time (whether they be Catholic, Christian, Buddhists, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, etc)” – Where did this authority come from? My local postman could, if he wanted, declare himself able to speak on my behalf. Doesn’t mean he can.
Imams have also recently issued fatwas against bullfighting and against the Pakistan president for flirting with Sarah Palin, doesn’t mean anything other than some Moslems partake in bullfighting and flirting. Or are you now going to claim these are also, majority or even entirely, Muslim practises?
“And by the way, keep telling yourself the FGM is a Christian practice, because no one else believes it” – I’m not sure why you are not grasping this concept. I know any other way to say this but I’ll repeat it once again, at no point have I said that I believe it is a Christian Practise. I do hope that is clear enough for you.
D Phillips
Jan 31st 2010, 21:43
@TLM,
So now you’re saying that because a fatwa was issued against the practise that means it is a Muslim practise?
So the ones that were issued against bullfighting and watching solar eclipses?
Once more as it would appear you forgot, - Can you put up a link to any website/article/research document that supports your theory (excluding any far right/fascist groups)
Mary Smith
Jan 30th 2010, 19:23
@D. Philips What are you talking about, comparing Western civilization with Islamic culture! Why a few months ago, in Yemen a 12 year old girl died in agony, along with the baby in her belly, because she was married too young (paedophilia in our culture) and yet no one in that country had apparently heard of a caesarean section. Poor girl. And I am sure that this is just a tip of the ice-berg, this must happen all the time in your Muslim paradises. Get real!
Guze Xerri
Jan 30th 2010, 16:49
To D. Philips,
Well you heard wrong - twice.
1. - Emma Xerri is correct, the Pope, has the moral authority to speak to all men, of all times for all eternity, be they Christian, Pagans, Muslims or of any other religion in between.
2. – there are no Christian sects to speak of that practice Female Genital Mutilation.
D Phillips
Jan 30th 2010, 13:10
@Raymond Cachia
2.
“…………….are forced to hide behind veils whether they personally wish it or not” Your ignorance and generalising know no bounds. Some wear veils, some wear headscarfs, some wear burqa’s. Most wear them because they believe their religion requires it, forcing is not always required.
“And you need factual proof for my assertion – you can see it each time you use your mobile phone, watch television, take prescription medicine, fly in an airplane and use a computer, to name just a few. In fact, the modern world is entirely a Judeo-Christian creation”. You omitted to include the “factual proof”
And just so you don’t keep making the same mistake, I am not trying to say that FGM is Christian practise.
"My" Imams, "My" Islamic scholars. Assumptions are a general trait throughout your writings
.
P.S You didn’t answer the question, “Just out of interest, your reference to yourself as a stupid infidel, is that you making a definitive statement or posing a question?”
D Phillips
Jan 30th 2010, 13:05
@Raymond Cachia
1.
I’m not sure you are quite grasping the meaning behind some of my statements, as your interpretation of them is at best shaky at worst wholly inaccurate. My apologies if I could write it in Maltese maybe you’d understand it better.
The phrase “Almost exclusively” is used, you are correct, but it is an incorrect use of English. For example – A company has the exclusive right to sell a product brand, if two companies can sell that brand, they don’t then have almost exclusivity. Hence exclusivity is absolute.
I’m not about list all the breakthroughs and inventions to come from the Moslem world, you or anybody else can find out by doing a simple google search. Lets not put the Nobel Prize on too high a pedestal, the last winner did what to deserve the accolade?
Roman Catholicism discriminates against woman, homosexuals and non catholics. All religions discriminate. All religions have extremists and fundamentalist elements, All religions have a small element who would like to see their country implement more religious based laws.
Emma Xerri
Jan 30th 2010, 12:33
@D. Philips
The Popes have set themselves up to be the only, supreme moral authority on Earth and have the authority to speak for all men and for all time (whether they be Catholic, Christian, Buddhists, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, etc).
In this respect, the Pope is a bit like your Muslim perfect man – al-insan al-kamil (the "ideal man"), who is the perfect model of human behaviour and is to be emulated. In the same way that Muslims have set up the Koran to be the direct and immutable word of Allah. It seems that we are at odds here, since both the Pope and Mohammed, through the Koran are claiming the same right. I wonder who will win when they start to butt heads? I would love to see that showdown.
And by the way, keep telling yourself the FGM is a Christian practice, because no one else believes it. And it is not just in FGM that Muslims are committing Crimes Against Humanity, there is always the “Honour Killings”. Now you are going to tell us that this is really a Christian practice too?
D Phillips
Jan 30th 2010, 12:19
@Mary Smith,
Mary, I used eating & smoking as the example, not quite sure how you read it as eating & drinking. Makes me wonder if you read anything comprehensively, or are you one of those people who sees what you want to see, rather than whats actually there?
“……………..wasting people's time with your twisted form of illogic”. Reasonably one would deduce that it is you who is wasting your own time, as you are the one taking the time to read and reply.
You are the only one talking about “chopping off genitals” Mary.
Again Mary, I’m not trying to prove that it is a Christian practise, because I don’t believe that. You do however believe it’s a Moslem practise. Now, the same logic you are using to define why it’s a Moslem practise, could if necessary, also define why it’s a Christian Practise. You see it now?
Trevor Lorenzo Mizzi
Jan 30th 2010, 11:33
D Phillips,
No use denying it, FGM is totally muslim.
Why the need for a fatwa then?A Fatwa is for muslims to cover a muslim problem, aka, barbarity.
Muslim hot heads in majority islamic Egypt are in an uproar !
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2006/04/fatwa-against-statues-triggers-uproar-in-egypt.html
Raymond Cachia
Jan 30th 2010, 03:35
@D. Philips
You certainly have your own ‘twist’ on circular reasoning and maybe you have not quite grasped the concept.
Circular reasoning is an inference drawn from a premise that includes the conclusion, and used to prove the conclusion. For example, earlier on you stated that since Christians, like Muslims, value virginity in women, ergo Christians practice FGM.
Circular reasoning uses a false assumption from the start to support an assertion. It is the difference between a valid deductive argument and a fallacy.
That the majority of women and girl who have to undergo FGM in this day and age are Muslims cannot be disputed. Your own Imams have now finally started to condemn it (and therefore one can naturally infer from this that it is a majority Muslims practice, if not solely a Muslim practice). This fact you cannot dispute otherwise you would be calling your own Imams and Islamic scholar liars. This make your statement that “Muslims practise FGM, therefore FGM is a Muslim practise” factual and therefore it is NOT an example of ‘circular reasoning’.
Mary Smith
Jan 30th 2010, 01:10
@D. Philips
Yes, indeed, you can look at the problem of FGM without any preconceived ideas or religious bias, but what you will still find when you crunch the numbers is that it is still a Muslim practice, give or take a few African tribes, from which Muslims took the practice and then ran wild with it.
In additionally, your example of ‘circular reasoning to TLM does not hold water either. Eating and drinking are normal biological functions of animals, including humans.
Chopping-off the genitals of little girls is not.
Smoking is a destructive human activity that can be shown empirically to be engaged in by people of all faiths.
I rather think it is you who should get real, instead of wasting people's time with your twisted form of illogic.
Raymond Cachia
Jan 29th 2010, 21:52
@D. Philips
2)
And you need factual proof for my assertion – you can see it each time you use your mobile phone, watch television, take prescription medicine, fly in an airplane and use a computer, to name just a few. In fact, the modern world is entirely a Judeo-Christian creation.
As for Human Rights, the punishment for leaving Islam is death. Islam discriminates against women, homosexuals and non-Muslims. Women are considered as ‘fields’ for the husband to till and are forced to hide behind veils whether they personally wish it or not. In Islamic countries, no other faiths are allowed to practice freely, e.g. in Saudi Arabia. Crucifixes and Bibles are banned and can put a person in jail if caught with these items. The Christian Copts in Egypt are discriminated against and subjected to violence on a routine basis. Yet, the same Muslims have the gall to demand we respect their religion and fight for the right to install Sharia Law in our lands as well as build Mosques to rival the size of our Churches.
Raymond Cachia
Jan 29th 2010, 21:49
@D. Philips
1)
In English, something can be almost exclusively, meaning that the majority who practice this barbarity in this day and age are Muslims. In fact, in Western nations, when doctors come across FGM women in hospitals, they are always and invariable Muslim.
Now let us speak of Western Civilization. Take one of the richest Islamic countries on earth – Saudi Arabia. It has been estimated that since the 1970’s alone they have taken in excess of 30 trillion American dollars in Oil revenue. Yet at least 70% of its population is illiterate. Now name me just one invention, one scientific discovery or one major work of art or music that has come out from any Muslim nation in the last 400 years. Can you think of any?
In fact, as far as Nobel Prize winners, only 4 were Arabs, one a Christian Arab and one was Yasser Arafat. Now would you like to know how many Nobel Prize winners, especially in Science and Medicine there are that are of the other faiths? And surprises, surprise, a disproportionate number of them are the ones you call ‘apes and pigs”
D Phillips
Jan 29th 2010, 18:27
@TLM, Did you read the article? “UN agency UNICEF statistics show a sharp fall in Niger in the incidence of FGM in the past decade masking stark ethnic differences, with three percent of Arab women circumcised but nearly two-thirds of some other tribal groups. “The fatwa in itself is not binding, and would not have an impact on those communities practising FGM for centuries-old cultural reasons not linked to the arrival of Islam in Africa”. Can you put up a link to any website/article/research document that supports your theory by definitively saying that FGM is a Islamic practise, to the exclusion of any, either, religious groups or cultural ties ? (excluding quotes from any delusional far right/facist groups)
Trevor Lorenzo Mizzi
Jan 29th 2010, 15:36
@ D Phillips,
FGM is a vile muslim practice.
You cannot change this fact.
D Phillips
Jan 28th 2010, 19:29
@Raymond Cachia
I’m intrigued, please do show me where it can be proved (empirically or otherwise) that it is practised either by 99.9% of Moslems or that those who practise it are 99.9% Moslem (I’m unsure of your definition there).
You think that Christianity is more scientifically advanced ? Human Rights? Knowledge? Again please do “enlighten” us as to your factual basis here?
Just out of interest, your reference to yourself as a stupid infidel, is that you making a definitive statement or posing a question?
D Phillips
Jan 28th 2010, 19:28
@Emma Xerri
Lets not be confusing Christianity with Catholicism. Why would the Pope speak out on something that happens within certain Christian cultures? Last I heard he was head of the Catholic Church, not the Head of Christianity.
D Phillips
Jan 28th 2010, 19:27
@Charles Grixti,
No it was tribes of Africa who took to it because it became part of their culture. Whether said tribe then became followers of Islam or Christianity is irrelevant because the practise remained.
Mostly exclusive? How can it be mostly exclusive? It’s either exclusive or its not. Exclusivity is absolute.
D Phillips
Jan 28th 2010, 19:23
@TLM
Do you really want to get onto which religion does what to whom?
Having been accused of circular reasoning I feel have to now pass that accusation on to you. Muslims practise FGM, therefore FGM is a Muslim practise. Muslims practise eating and smoking, therefore eating and smoking are a Muslim practise. Get real.
D Phillips
Jan 28th 2010, 19:22
@Mary Smith,
Indeed there is. And any one who can look at and research the subject without any sort of, religion based preconceived bias, will come to a logical conclusion.
Trevor Lorenzo Mizzi
Jan 28th 2010, 18:32
@D. Philips,
What is next on your agenda? Are you also going to take on the Herculean task of convincing us that the Sun does not rise in the East and set in the West?
Of course FGM is a Muslim practice. And that is not all that Islam does to women either – just take a look here.
http://www.dhushara.com/paradoxhtm/vale.htm
Emma Xerri
Jan 28th 2010, 18:16
@D. Philips
The Pope did not condemn FGM, although he should. It was a ‘Fatwa” - a Muslim ruling issued by a Muslim Imams and Scholars.
So what more proof do you need that it is a majority Muslim practice?
Anything else you say to the contrary is rendered redundant.
Raymond Cachia
Jan 28th 2010, 18:05
D. Philips
Your power of reasoning and logic are faulty to say the least.
I am not missing any of your points at all but, rather I understand exactly where you are coming from - a Muslim residing in ‘dar il-harb’ and practicing ‘Taqiya” on what you think are stupid infidels.
And using reasoning, when something like FGM, which can be shown empirically and statistically to be practiced by 99.9% by Muslims, one can safely say that it IS a Muslim practice.
Whilst I am not fond of any religion, at least Christianity was able to reform itself and give raise to the Enlightenment, the Renaissance, and Secular Humanism, with all the corresponding advances in science, human rights and knowledge. We are still waiting for this to happen from the ‘Religion of Peace”.
D Phillips
Jan 28th 2010, 17:59
@TLM,
Islam pops into your mind instantly. Not barbaric practise, sympathy, outrage. No for you, the first thought is Islam. Shows a lot for your priorities.
Charles Grixti
Jan 28th 2010, 17:38
@D. Philips
Get this straight. While in the eons of time FGM and the radical “Pharonic” type called Infibulation might have started before Islam, it is Muslims and Islam who took to it like hogs to mud, since it fits right in with their “religious’ agenda and their obsession with controlling women and their reproductive powers.
Therefore, TLM and the other here are right when they content that FGM is a mostly an exclusive Muslim practice in this day and age.
If this fact does not sit right with you, then better you advocate against the practice to change things in these Islamic countries rather then deny and hide the facts, using every means to twist and contort the truth.
Trevor Lorenzo Mizzi
Jan 28th 2010, 16:29
D Phillips,
"Think FGM, Islam pops into ones mind instantly? Really? "
Yes really.
Mary Smith
Jan 28th 2010, 16:28
@D. Philips
Why are you engaging in a war of semantics with Trevor L. Mizzi? In order to side-track the issue of FGM?
I think that there is enough information out there for intelligent people to make up their own minds as to whether FGM and Infibulation is practiced in Christian or Muslim countries.
Punto e Basta!
D Phillips
Jan 28th 2010, 13:50
@TLM
If you call it a “muslim practise” because some moslems practise it, then by your logic, if some Christians practise it then one would also describe it as a Christian practise. Its is connected to Islam as much as it is connected to Christianity, however is strongest connection is to African tribes who were doing it before the advent of both Islam and Christianity.
Think FGM, Islam pops into ones mind instantly? Really?
D Phillips
Jan 28th 2010, 13:47
@Raymond Cachia,
“First of all, do not assume that I am Catholic.” I didn’t. The sentences I used included a reference to Catholicism and atheism, and was also in the form of a question, not a statement.
See you are missing the entire point here. If you had followed any of my points you would understand that my point is that is not a practised by any one particular religion. Only, if one was to use your reasoning as to why it’s a Moslem practise, one could one also use the same reasoning to describe it as a Christian practise. I’m not quite sure why you can’t keep up with this nor understand the point. The common denominator is Africa and tribes of Africa.
I’m unsure why you have included your second paragraph as it argues against your entire point, not mine.
Its strange you don’t mention Christianity or Catholicism as one of your retrograde ideologies? Significant? Perhaps.
Raymond Cachia
Jan 28th 2010, 01:08
@D. Philips
First of all, do not assume that I am Catholic.
I reiterate, FGM is a majority Muslim practice. You are trying to convince everyone here that it is also a Christian practice with the excuse that since Christians also valued virginity in women, ergo they must also practice FGM. This is a prime example of faulty logic and reasoning , e.g. since chickens have feathers, then all animals with feathers must be chickens, or more aptly, since most terrorist are Muslims, then Muslims are terrorists.
Both statements are examples of circular reasoning and both are wrong. There are plenty of animals that have feathers that are not chickens and there are many Muslims that are good and decent people, despite the religion they were born into.
What have I got against Islam, the same thing I have against Communism, Fascism, Stalinism, Nazism and all other forms of retrograde ideologies that have kept mankind in a state of ignorance, superstition, discrimination, cruelty and war. In short, anything and everything that enslaves the mind and body of men and women. All religions are self-serving institutions found at the right hand of power and in some countries are powers onto themselves.
Trevor Lorenzo Mizzi
Jan 27th 2010, 19:07
@ D. Phillips,
FGM is still connected to islam no matter how you want to hide these facts.
Think FGM, islam pops into ones mind instantly.
D Phillips
Jan 27th 2010, 13:04
@TLM
At least you have acknowledged your mistake now, whether wittingly or not. Referencing it now as “practiced by muslims” rather than a “Muslim practise”
Trevor Lorenzo Mizzi
Jan 26th 2010, 22:17
@D Phillips,
Anyone and everyone should loudly criticize FGM no matter in what form of government they happen to live.
Ray Cachia is spot on, FGM is a vile barbaric operation practiced by muslims on muslims.
Stop trying to muddle the issue. You are not convincing anyone with your attempts.
D Phillips
Jan 26th 2010, 19:50
@Raymond Cachia
Explain to me, why if both Christians and Moslems do it, it can be called Muslim practise, but can NOT (I'M not entirely sure why capitalisation is required) be called a Christian Practise. Now that is a double standard and by any sense of logic, illogical.
None of it even comes close to being circular reasoning.
You can reiterate the opinions of someone else all you like, you’ve obviously never heard the saying “ two wrongs don’t make a right”.
Why do you have issues with Islam? Is it because you believe that your Catholic faith is superior? Or is it because, as an atheist, you have a problem with all religions?
D Phillips
Jan 26th 2010, 19:35
@TLM
“Islamic women are the majority recipients of this barbarity……” - Indeed they are, they are the majority recipients of this barbarity, when the perpetrators are Muslim or of the Islamic faith. Alternatively Christian woman are the majority recipients of this barbarity when the perpetrators are Christian. Your argument holds no water.
“The criticism of FGM should be yelled out by all people of good will” - I’m sure it is, by people of goodwill of all religions.
You appear to mix and match between “a fascist state” and “those that live in a fascist state”. Hopefully you’re aware the two are different?
Raymond Cachia
Jan 26th 2010, 18:39
@D. Philips
No, most definitely NOT. You cannot call FGM a Christian practice, just because female virginity is also (or rather was) valued in Christianity.
What you are trying to do is to confuse the issue using every trick the book, including 'circular reasoning".
This goes to show how sensitive Islam and its apologists are when the truth about Islam is concerned. They do not want the ugly truth get out and be generally known, its teachings subjected to scrutiny and laid bare into the cleansing light of the day. That is why even quoting verbatim, unsavoury verses directly from the Koran is considered to be "insulting' and "blaspheming" to this religion and they try to censure people who do so by prosecuting them in court or accusing them of being 'racist' even though Islam is not a race.
And I reiterate what Mary Smith correctly contends, that FGM is predominantly an Islamic cultural phenomenon in this day and age! And nothing you say, D. Philips will make it otherwise!
Trevor Lorenzo Mizzi
Jan 26th 2010, 16:33
@ D Phillips,
"The reason you are bringing Fascist States into the equation is? Are laws on freedom of speech not fairly rare in Fascist states, unless they are to curtail said entitlement. "
The criticism of FGM should be yelled out by all people of good will, even by those that live in a fascist system no matter how hard that might be to accomplish.
Islamic women are the majority recipients of this barbarity,there no use in hiding this fact.
D Phillips
Jan 26th 2010, 13:39
@Raymond Cachia
“Female Genital Mutilation is often inflicted upon girls between the ages of 4 and 14………………………” Well done you start off something we all know. Thank you.
As for the rest of your analysis, no-one is disputing that it is practised by Moslems. Although mainly by Moslems who live in African countries. Now in the same African countries the same practise is carried out by Christians, and a brides virginity is as important in Christianity as it is in Islam?
So we could equally call it a Christian practise.
Or is that also splitting hairs as well?
Indeed, it is mentioned in a hadith, albeit one that is classed as a weak. As you are so keen on including quotes, according to Sayyid Sabiq, renowned scholar and author of Fiqh-us-Sunnah, all hadiths concerning female circumcision are non-authentic.
D Phillips
Jan 26th 2010, 13:22
@Charles Grixti,
What gives you the idea that I feel threatened in some way by Mary Smiths inaccurate statements?
You continue with descriptions. Charles, still, you’re missing the point. The discussion is not about the process or indeed the consequences. These two points have never been in dispute.
At least, thankfully (you’ll notice no reference to any higher power), you’ve desisted with your habit of regurgitating untruths.
D Phillips
Jan 26th 2010, 13:20
@Mary Smith,
I ‘m not sure how many times I need to re-iterate the same point to you, or indeed how many research articles you’d need to read, to realise that your statement “…..FGM and Infibulations remains exclusively a Muslim practice in modern times” is complete rubbish. You obviously understand, read and speak a different version of the English language than I do. (Maybe a quick check on the definition of the word “exclusively” might give you a hint of your most glaring, although not only, mistake)
Another conspiracy theorist, excellent. OIC takes over the UN? Please. How many permanent members, with a veto vote, are from the OIC.?
Overall intention was to cure? Cure lesbianism? Well done girl another statement of profound intelligence.
You’re obviously not a fan of Islam, please don’t tell me you profess to be Christian.
Just to be clear, nor is misogyny an exclusively Moslem practice either.
Those who create the “them” and “us” mentality are the biggest danger to us all.
Charles Grixti
Jan 26th 2010, 06:35
@D. Philips
Why are you so threatened by Mary Smith’s description of FGM and its consequences?
Are you afraid that more people will know of this horrific practice and become outraged? What was not mentioned was the radical form of FGM, infibulaton, where all the external female genitalia is excised and sewn up, leaving just a tiny hole for menstruation? And the fact that each time the husband wants to have intercourse with is wife, he has to take a knife to open the vagina. Life must indeed be a daily torture for these poor women.
An uncircumcised woman, that is, one that is not FGM, is one that might actually have the ability to enjoy sex. This is apparently seen as a threat in some of these patriarchal societies and husbands cannot stand the thought that their women might actually enjoy sex and perhaps seek it out. Therefore, an intact woman is not seen as good marriage material.
We all should fight to eradicate this barbaric practice, (even if it means fighting/offending religious or ethnic groups), and defend women and girls' rights to life, limb and bodily integrity and yes, even the right to enjoy sex as nature intended!
Raymond Cachia
Jan 26th 2010, 06:14
@D. Philips
Female Genital Mutilation is often inflicted upon girls between the ages of 4 and 14. FGM has no foundation in Islamic scripture or law.
It is however widely practiced among Muslims and attempts have been made to justify it is Islamic terms. Female genital mutilation is not in the Koran, but it is included in a Hadith (a saying of the prophet Mohammed). The fact is, in the West, Muslim communities are almost the only ones that practice it. It is to ensure virginity until the girl's wedding day. The ritual may not be Islamic, but it serves the Islamic purpose of ensuring that a girl remains a virgin till she is married. In 1994,
the Sociologist Farida Shaheed observed that “[the] interlocking of customs and religion is such that the average Muslim woman in Sudan, Somalia, and parts of Egypt cannot conceive of being able to retain her Muslim identity if she rejects circumcision.
Therefore, in view of these facts, your contention that FGM is not a Muslim practice is just 'splitting hairs' and rendered irrelevant, to say the least.
Mary Smith
Jan 26th 2010, 00:42
@D. Philips
No matter where and when it started FGM and Infibulations remains exclusively a Muslim practice in modern times. No amount of “White-Washing” by you or the UN agencies that you mentioned, (the UN – presently under the control of the Organization of Islamic Nations), can change this fact!
And since you mentioned ‘our’ West, of course there were medical mistakes made in the past, but the overall intention was to cure and not to follow some edicts by misogynistic Imams. Misguided cures such as lobotomies and clitoridectomies, to name just a few, were always being “Peer Reviewed” and advances in medical knowledge made these obsolete in a relatively short time. Not so with the Muslims who remain firmly entrenched in the 7th Century.
So, please enough of your “tu quoque” arguments and revisionist history.
“Your civilization” still practices the same barbarities that it did centuries ago, things including FGM and Infibulation but also such joys as public beheadings, amputations and whippings. These things can be seen in even the epitome of Muslim modernity, such as Saudi Arabia.
Obviously, you approve of ‘your civilization”, so my question to you is what are you doing living in “ours”?
D Phillips
Jan 25th 2010, 15:30
@Mary Smith You can troop out as many quotes as you deem fit, problem is there will always be quotes maintaining a different stance, sometimes even from the same organisations. “Even though the practice can be found among Christians, Jews and Muslims, none of the holy texts of any of these religions prescribes female genital mutilation and the practice pre-dates both Christianity and Islam.” Quote from 10 separate agencies including WHO, UNICEF, UN commission on Human Rights,UNESCO. Originated in African cultures and copied by some Muslim communities. Does not make it a Muslim practice. It makes it an act practiced by some muslims. Please differentiate between the two. The method and physical consequences of this practice are not in question here so no need to “enlighten” us with your descriptions and definitions. Incidentally FGM was also practiced in some quarters of your “West” in days gone by in an attempt to cure such horrors as lesbianism, epilepsy and hysteria to name but a few.
D Phillips
Jan 25th 2010, 15:00
@TLM The fact remains that this is not a Muslim practise. Of course it is practised to a degree by some Muslim communities, this does not make it a Muslim practise, please try and differentiate between the meanings. It is also practised in some Christian communities, I haven’t yet heard you describing it as a Christian practise. “Where and when FGM started is irrelevant in this issue” No its not irrelevant at all. As you state the practise pre-dates Islam, and in your style of biased writing fail to mention that it is most prevalent in African countries and least prevalent in both moderate and fundamentalist Islamic states. Lastly, your mention of Islamic apologists is just laughable.
D Phillips
Jan 25th 2010, 13:31
@Charles Grixti
FGM is not a predominantly Muslim practise, your statement is wholly is inaccurate and a complete falsehood. No matter how many times you repeat the same statement this fact will not change. Yes it happens among the Islamic community, however it also happens among Christian communities, so by your way of thinking it could be a predominantly Christian practise. Please learn the difference between Cultural practises and religious practises.
Your descriptions of the act and its consequences are really not necessary, we are all aware of them.
Guze Xerri
Jan 24th 2010, 21:37
To D Phillips,
"You’ll excuse me if I don’t deign to comment further on your writings. I fear it would be pointless for you and your “ilk”.
A wise decision on your part not to discuss a subject you know so little about with those who do.
Trevor Lorenzo Mizzi
Jan 24th 2010, 21:31
@D Phillips,
Although FGM and “Infibulation” pre-date Islam, the fact is that now-a-days, in the days of cell phones, air travel and nuclear physics; it is still being practiced almost exclusively by Muslims and those in close proximity to them. Why is it still being done in mostly predominately Muslim nations in both Africa and the Middle East and the Maghreb? It is also done in such far away countries as Indonesia to Muslim girls (there are some very graphic pictures on the Internet of FGM being done in a Mosque). The common thread here is Islam.
Where and when FGM started is irrelevant in this issue, the facts show that it is now mostly an Islamic practice. No amount of rhetoric from Islamic apologists will make it otherwise.
Mary Smith
Jan 24th 2010, 20:18
@D. Philips
According to UNICEF figures, FGM is traditionally practised in one form or another in 32 countries (roughly 16% of the Member States of the United Nations), of which 29 states (90%) are Members of the Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC).
In reality, while many say that there is nothing in Islam which requires female circumcision; this barbaric practice has been encouraged by many Imams through the centuries. One of Sunni Islam’s “Four Great Imams,” Ahmad ibn Hanbal (from whom the Hanbali school of Islamic jurisprudence takes its name) quotes Muhammed as saying: “Circumcision is a law for men and a preservation of honour for women.”
By conservative estimates, 66,000 women and girls living in Britain have been mutilated. This figure, accepted by the Metropolitan Police, came in a report by a volunteer organisation funded by the Department of Health and carried out with academics from the London School of Tropical Hygiene and the City University.
And thousands more girls are at imminent risk as families club together to fly professional "cutters" from Africa to Britain, who perform the crude operation often on kitchen tables or floors, without anaesthetic, using filthy, blunt knives, razor blades or scalpels.
Charles Grixti
Jan 24th 2010, 20:01
@D. Philips
FGM is predominantly a Muslim practice. The non-Muslims that practice it got this from their Muslim neighbours, either because of Islam was the predominate religion in their region or because of forced 'compliance' with the diktats of this religion on non-Muslims.
Just the fact that a "Fatwa" that is a Muslim ruling on a matter, had to be pronounced, proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that it a Muslim practice.
Did the Muslims just realize only NOW that this practice harms the body, after centuries of abuse, young girls subjected to this abject torture that leaves them impaired as functioning women?
Hundreds of girls die from bleeding or infections after the procedure and if they manage to survive as women they are faced with 3 day long labour in childbirth, resulting with the deaths of the mother, the baby or both, since the whole genital area becomes a mass of scar tissue that cannot stretch to allow the baby's head out.
And the Muslims just now have discovered that FGM does harm? The mind boggles.
D Phillips
Jan 24th 2010, 18:54
@TLM
I think you’ll find that many organisations, both governmental and non, oppose and condemn this practise on a regular basis, just because you don’t read about it in the Times every day doesn’t mean that its not happening.
Nothing is hiding behind a “cloak of religion”, It’s not a religious practise, but for someone who is such a history buff and well read on the region I’m sure you knew that and just got carried away in the moment.
How does my logic lead you to that conclusion?
The reason you are bringing Fascist States into the equation is? Are laws on freedom of speech not fairly rare in Fascist states, unless they are to curtail said entitlement.
D Phillips
Jan 24th 2010, 18:43
Dear Ms Xerri,
You talk of religious tolerance and religious freedom quite often, FGM is not a religious practise, it’s a cultural practise. Please read and comprehend the penultimate paragraph in the article, it’s a practise that happens in African countries some of which are indeed Moslem(most of which are not), some of which are Christian. So please don’t over play the religious overtones and try to be little more au fait with the subject matter.
“So in your view any law should be obeyed even if it goes against Human Rights and abuses women and children……” I don’t believe I said that.
Abortion, offers a comparable practise,both involving a womans right to choose and with similar moral overtures, between different cultures or different religions.
D Phillips
Jan 24th 2010, 18:33
@Charles Grixti
1) “The State does not grant anyone the “Right” to speak out” Indeed it does not. I can’t remember stating that any point. Please do point it out to me. However states enact laws which (legally) entitle you to speak your mind without being prosecuted or persecuted by the state or an individual.
2) The liberal democracies you mention (one of which you live in), which ones have enacted laws that make it illegal to criticise an ideology? Except Malta (article 163 of the Malta Criminal Code)
3) Right/duty comes from somewhere higher? Where would that be?
D Phillips
Jan 24th 2010, 18:15
@Mary Smith.
No obfuscation intended.
Perhaps you should not assume so much.
D Phillips
Jan 24th 2010, 18:00
@Guze Xerri
You’ll excuse me if I don’t deign to comment further on your writings. I fear it would be pointless for you and your “ilk”.
Guze Xerri
Jan 24th 2010, 16:02
To D. Phillips,
So I gather that you are in favour of FGM but opposed to abortion.
People have had it up to hear with the sanctimonious pick and choose morality espoused by those of your ilk.
Mary Smith
Jan 24th 2010, 01:25
@D. Philips
You have very cleverly obfuscated this issue and turned everything that Emma Xerri said upside down.
The issue at hand here is not freedom of speech in a democracy but rather the fact the we in the West have been turning a blind eye to these atrocities and endless suffering happening to children and women each and every day in the continent of Africa.
You do a great disservice to humanity and yet you perhaps deem yourself a pious Christian.
Trevor Lorenzo Mizzi
Jan 24th 2010, 01:16
@ D Phillips
Ms. Emma Xerri is not attacking freedom of speech bur rather the hypocrisy that one hand gives lip service to the Rights of the Child and signs all such conventions, and yet allows such atrocities as Female Genital Mutilation to go on without opposition or international outrage and condemnation, just because it hides behind the cloak of religion. And using your logic, and since it was the law of the land at that time in Germany, it was alright to round up certain people and gas them and that anyone who objected to this on moral grounds was belittling and denigrating said laws!
Now, if you cannot understand or comprehend what Ms. Xerri has written and the difference between empty talk and concrete action to protect human rights, then it is you who is beyond any hope! I repeat She is not denigrating and belittling any law of freedom of speech in a democracy or a fascist state , so your accusations are still baseless and not fitting.
Charles Grixti
Jan 24th 2010, 01:13
@D. Philips
The State does not grant anyone the “Right” to speak out, no more than it grants you the right to live or breathe the air! Are you sure that you are living in this century and not in the Dark Ages?
The Right (or rather duty) to oppose evil comes from somewhere higher. It is found burning in the hearts of all men of goodwill.
Female Genital Mutilation is an evil practice and Western countries and other moral authorities are guilty of neglecting their duties toward the rights of children, women and girls!
Furthermore, our so-called liberal democracies have made laws that make it illegal to criticise any ideology for fear of political correctness. The desire not to offend has become entrenched in Western jurisprudence at the expense of ruined lives and endless human suffering! This is nothing but sheer evil and hypocrisy on the part of the West.
Ideologies, and this includes religions and cultures should not be beyond criticism. Otherwise, all human progress is stifled.
Emma Xerri
Jan 24th 2010, 00:50
@D. Philips
If the law allows for the whitewashing of barbaric practices such a FGM in the name of religious tolerance, then I will gladly belittle and de-nigger them each and every time. In fact, it is incumbent of over decent human being to do so. FGM is equivalent to chopping off the penises of little boys, maiming them forever. Or do you use two weights and two measures?
And what has abortion go to do with this topic? Are you one of those that have no compassion for women and do not see them as human beings, yet cry crocodile tears for foetuses?
So in your view any law should be obeyed even if it goes against Human Rights and abuses women and children. Rather, I think there is NO hope for your sir!
D Phillips
Jan 23rd 2010, 18:35
@Emma Xerri
I quote from your previous comment “………………using the excuse of respect for religious freedom and tolerance!! That is how perverse our supposed "Enlightened" and Liberal Western democracies have become”
That, my dear, is a statement belittling said laws. If you can’t see it there is little or no hope for you.
“The Laws of Western lands, that are allowing me to speak without fear, as you state are not Laws of the land or a democracy”. How wrong can you be? That is exactly what they are.
What is immoral to one may not be immoral to another. Abortion as an example.
@TLM
“She is not denigrating and belittling any law of freedom of speech…………………..”
In her last sentence that is exactly what she is doing.
Trevor Lorenzo Mizzi
Jan 23rd 2010, 17:20
@ D. Phillips,
I agree 100% with Ms. Emma Xerri. She is not denigrating and belittling any law of freedom of speech in a democracy or a fascist state , so your accusations are baseless and not fitting.
Any human being of any nation and religion should be outraged and should do more than speak out against this barbarity of female genital mutilation, it is morally wrong by any human barometer of morality for all time. It is surprising to hear the deafening silence of the universal church of rome on this issue, as it normally uses its great authority to speak out against cruelty and injustice that is happening around the world regardless of what religion is implicated .
Emma Xerri
Jan 23rd 2010, 16:52
@D. Philips
What laws am I denigrating or belittling, the laws that allowed little girls to be genitally mutilated, using unsterile glass and without aesthetic in the name of a religion? In Egypt, this was also being done in hospitals by supposedly educated doctors, who vied with each other for the honours of ruining a girl's body.
The Laws of Western lands, that are allowing me to speak without fear, as you state are not Laws of the land or a democracy, they are laws imprinted in the hearts of every man and in every land for all times. What is intrinsically evil and immoral cannot be made right by curtailing freedom of speech or persecuting those that stand up for the truth and in defence of those that are defenceless.
D Phillips
Jan 22nd 2010, 21:41
@Emma Xerri
Isn’t it ironic that the laws that you denigrate and be-little are the same laws that allow you to make the statement you have just made without fear of prosecution or persecution.
Emma Xerri
Jan 22nd 2010, 19:51
Finally, something is being done about this barbarity.
Now let us hear the WHO come out in full force against this practice, the Medical Profession in each and every country and every decent human being on the earth, since FGM is also happening in secret as we speak even in Europe and North America by certain immigrants on their helpless daughters.
The sad thing is that if Muslims did not finally decide that it is not mandatory and issued a Fatwa against it, we in the West would have protected their religious rights to maimed and torture their daughters, using the excuse of respect for religious freedom and tolerance!! That is how perverse our supposed "Enlightened" and Liberal Western democracies have become.
Neil Sant
Jan 22nd 2010, 16:32
A brutal practice which ruins lives. We can't call our Western Civilization "civilized" if we fail to put pressure to bear to stop this child abuse.