Pope slams gay marriage

C.Zammit

Jan 17th 2010, 12:35

@ Arthur Soler - You want to believe what ever you like! You want to eliminate laws which are hard in life. The world is really going backwards. People don't want laws they want to do whatever they like. Death penalty removed , extreme prison sentences not anymore now. Why? because people want to do what ever they like. God is true and his laws are true too. I stll do not agree that gays get benifits like normal married couples.Yes I was born in Malta and proud of it , born and baptised catholic and proud of it & proud and thankfull for all that I have in Life. Like Gays want their freedom I want my freedom to express my views & also the right to choose a govement. If these secular govements where really democratic they would give the people the right for a referendum on issues such as Gay Marriage, Divorce, abortion ect. The fact that the right-wing is gaining popularity agian is a sign that some people had enough.

Arthur Soler

Jan 14th 2010, 23:44

@CZammit

By the way, your Wikipedia link about Sodom and Gomorrah ,I found very amusing indeed, but not particularly inspirational. Consider the following:

- “God reveals to Abraham that he will investigate Sodom and Gomorrah, because their cry is great, and because their sin (homosexuality) is very grievous”. Why would God need to investigate anything? Does He not already know everything, past, present and future?

- “Lot refuses to give his guests to the inhabitants of Sodom, and instead offers them his two virgin daughters to "do to them whatever you like." Very loving and considerate father this guy Lot. He is willing to give his two daughters to the mob to be raped !!!!!!!

- “However, Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed with fire and brimstone by God”. You would think that God could have at least spared the innocent children !!!!!!!!!!!

- “Lot's wife looks back longingly at the city, and becomes a pillar of salt”. Very harsh punishment for a very minor transgression, don’t you think?

Now really…..how can anybody take this fanciful story seriously just because it is in the Bible? Unfortunately, millions of people believe this stuff….which is why the world is full of religious fanatics.

Arthur Soler

Jan 14th 2010, 20:03

@C Zammit:

I understand your reasons for your attitudes towards gays, but I don't agree with them. You can believe whatever you want, but what I particularily object to is when views like yours are imposed on the rest of society. You may not agree with gay marriage, but give me one good reason why gays/lesbians who are a couple, should be denied the same social rights/ benefits as married people, or indeed couples living common law?

As for God's Law, the one you refer to is the Christian law as defined by the Church. But the only reason you are Christian is simply because you were born in a Christian country of Catholic parents......an accident of birth really. Had you been born in Saudi Arabia of Muslim parents, you likely would have been brought up Muslim. And, your definition of "God's Law" would have been very different indeed. . For example, you could have multiple wives and you could stone women to death who have sex outside marriage. That is God's Law according to the Kuran.

Which is why we thankfully have Secular governments....to protect the basic rights of a ALL citizens, including gays/lesbians, not just the majority.

C.Zammit

Jan 14th 2010, 10:29

@ Arthur Soler - You once again did not answer questions I asked you around 15hrs7mins ago! Of course Gays are human beings. No one ever said that ME or the Catholic church hates Gays. Church even condems acts of abuse and violence towards gay people! What they do in private is no bodys business I agree! But keep it in private & keep it to your self. Also there is a big difference in not tolerating Gays getting married and hating Gays! Yes I did say that I don't tolerate Gays/ Lesbians but only because people like you don't tolerate other people's views like this one. In today's world if one does not accept or like Gay marriage you tend to make fun of him like idiots! For one reason or another the times of malta censored some religious links which I send you.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodom_and_Gomorrah , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_marriage. I here send them again as there is nothing wrong in them they are from wikipedia and beleive there is nothing wrong in them!

Arthur Soler

Jan 14th 2010, 00:24

@C Zammit

Quote; "Why should I tolerate Gays / Lesbians....."

Because like you, they are human beings created by God.
Because according to your Christian faith, you should love your neighbour as yourself. Because what they do in private, should not be anybody's business, except their own. Because they have suffered from cruelty, prejudice, mockery, injustice and pain just because of their sexual orientation
Because they contribute to society just like “normal” people.
Because they suffer from lack of kindness and compassion by people like you.
Because they need to be loved, just like you.

Let me know if you need anymore reasons.

C.Zammit

Jan 14th 2010, 00:07

@Arthur Soler - Secularisim fools people it makes the minority seem like a majority through media infuence and other means. Many Gays think that Malta is backwards! Do we have hate crimes on gays like in Italy , Germany,Usa any many others. God forbid hope we will never have these kind of crimes. Look at Italy thanks to secular politics forced on people who racist it has become! To much tolerance to everything is leading to this. The far-right is gaining popularity in big numbers in Holland and many other european countries. Does this mean something that people are fed-up with this. If you want to defend Gay marriage or fight for it you have all the right to do so but other who oppose it have also the right to do this. You simply can't tolerate yourself some one that loves his religion/culture! One other thing to see how much you tolerate you might be the one that also try to make fun with people going to church. The Maltese state is Roman Catholic and that's how it is. I can garantee that the majority wants it that way! So learn to tolerate differnet views of other people!

C.Zammit

Jan 13th 2010, 23:37

@Arthur Soler - First of all I asked you some questions & you did not answer me! You may continue to make fun of God but the funny one is you! What does the muslim religion got to do with the Roman catholic religion? God gave his commandments and by now I think you know them!We have the sacraments too! Why do people like you want to make fun of the truth (catholic religion). You make fun and man is trying to change them by adapting his laws is because Gods laws are not easy at all to follow. One of God's law is to have a fruitfull mariage between a man & a woman & children come out of that marriage. Nothing fruitfull comes out of a gay marriage! Why did you not answer the questions I asked you below each and everyone? The old testament is important but then came christ in the new testament and gave the world a better explanation of life him self. He was even crucified for our sins each and every one of us! Hope you don't find that funny too! It's not right to re marry unless your wife/husband dies. cont/

Arthur Soler

Jan 13th 2010, 19:41

@C Zammit

One other point. Could you please clarify for the rest of us your definition of “God’s Law” in the context of marriage? For example, if one were brought up Muslim, then polygamy is allowed in certain cases according to the Koran, which for Muslims, is God’s Law. Ah! But you may say that that is not the Christian God. True, but in the Old Testament, polygamy is in fact endorsed by God himself. According to the Bible, God gave King David many wives [2 Samuel 12:8]. Abraham had more than one wife, as did Moses. God Himself explains the method and rights when another wife is taken in.[Exodus 21:10]:

"If he take him another wife her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage shall he not diminish."

Well, we know that you do not approve of Gay marriage because it is against God’s law, but is polygamy okay according to God’s law?

C.Zammit

Jan 13th 2010, 19:08

@Arthur Soler - No need to feel sorry for me! Why Because I have different opinion and views from you? Why because I don't think like many people are forced to think? Why should I tolerate Gays / Lesbians when you nearly have to mock someone with a strong catholic faith or people who do not think the same way like you do! Do I have the right not to agree with Gay marraige or no?? I am asking you? Do I? Or I have to agree by force because of this empty secular system. Can I not like a secular goverment or no?? Or I have to like it by force? Normal is what God created and for someone like you to write the word ''Normal" like this is really foolish! Are you above God to change his LAWS! No need to return to the age of the inquisition but God is God and nor you or any secular goverment will chalenge him! It's not my normal life style its the norm we have been given by God One other thing can someone be proud of his culture,country,religion? Because you seem to make fun of people like that too!!

Arthur Soler

Jan 13th 2010, 17:25

@C Zammit

It is quite clear that in your mind "love thy neighbour as thyself" only applies if your neighbour happens to be white, Christian and preferably Catholic, and of course "straight". You certainly do not display any tolerance for gays/lesbians...so I can safely assume that your tolerence for anything outside of your "normal " lifestyle and values is negligible. Your suggestion that we should get rid of secular governments is incomprehensible, unless of course you feel that a return to the age of the Inquisition is a better option. I feel sorry for you....honestly.

Colette Farrugia Bennett

Jan 13th 2010, 14:54

Government - Latent Dictatorship, apparent Democracy.

Aldo Gatt

Jan 13th 2010, 13:10

Amongst the recent stories in the news two stand out - one where state laws based on prejudice have been repealed and love and understanding have conquered; the other in Malawi where two men have had the audacity to celebrate their love for each other have been arrested and humiliated. The latter is a story of hatred and of ignorance. Guess which story has the leader of the Catholic Church decided to highlight and oppose. Guess which one he purposefully omits disapproving of. Uganda is considering to punish homosexuality by death. Has the pope spoken out against that? I don't think so.

C.Zammit

Jan 13th 2010, 12:45

@ Joe Xuereb - Yes I know what I am praying for a GOOD Right- Wing party & one day I hope It will be in govement beating both P.N & P.L & A.D in a general election. I hope that this will be all around europe. Europe & many parts around the world need the FAR-RIGHT. We need to quickly get rid of Secular goverments. The empty goverments who think that they are above God to challange his laws. No need to be afraid of the Far-Right. I am for a far right party which does not use violence. God gave the sacrament of marriage and it's to be between a Man and a Woman not two people of the same sex. If homosexuals are leaving our Island good for them and hope they continue to do so if they are not able to obey the law. Are you joking when you talk about legal rights to Gays. No Way! I mean you can't be recognised as a family. You can hardly recognise a hetrosexual couple who are not married let alone homosexuals. You have all the right to live , work ,gaybars/clubs and all rights but not marriage!

Joseph Borg

Jan 13th 2010, 09:28

@ Cyrus Engerer: With all due respect - and I say this with every right, since you are a public person, being local councillor for the NP in Sliema - you spent much of your time, during elections, sitting right behind the Leader of the NP during election activities of that same Party. It was always pretty obvious that you wanted to be constantly seen behind the Leader. Now, you come criticising the way things are taking place viz homosexuality in our country. But who is running and administering our country, Cyrus? Who is allowing the R C Church to impress its beliefs and dogmas on the running of our supposedly-lay State? In other words, young Cyrus, who needs to set the wheel going in order to have some civil liberties in Malta of which we hear so much throughout the EU but not here???? Who?

Colette Farrugia Bennett

Jan 13th 2010, 08:05

Any more hate speech, Vatican?
And, same sex marriage does not make one a family, it only gives the legal status, rights and responsibilities to same sex couple. The family is socially constructed, and there is no need for anyone to get married to form a family. A family, where the adults are recognized to have legally committed to each other, is one like any other, however in this society, marriage is still required in order to access many rights, responsibilities, benefits, social and legal status, etc. Do we really want to continue living in a society of double standards, or making one section of society more vulnerable to discrimination, and unequal.

Before anyone should pass any judgement, maybe try putting yourself in the shoes of a gay person, and then start talking....you too would want equality

Joe Xuereb

Jan 12th 2010, 14:24

1) If one subscribes to the idea of marriage as the formulaic 'let no man pull asunder' then one is rightly stuck with that recipe. If, on the other hand, the marriage recipe is just a social structure, like anything man-made, it can be made to fit changing circumstances. Like anything that involves humans, a recipe, any recipe that made sense x thousands of years ago would not necessarily make sense x thousand years after. It is like a grown person trying on a pair of shoes they were given on their fifth birthday. That said, it must not be forgotten that 'a gay marriage' is not a marriage in the conventional sense. It is just a legally-binding contract that benefits the couple involves relating to hospital visiting rights and inheritance. That is all. It does not mean an automatic right to adopt children - not forgetting that all gay people were brought up in heterosexual families by heterosexual parents - and anybody seeing footage of gay marriage ceremonies, such are conducted by gay-friendly churches and priests.
cont./

Cyrus Engerer

Jan 12th 2010, 01:42

It's a shame that many homosexuals in our country are choosing to leave our island just for the reason that our state still discriminates against gay people/couples, if not directly, indirectly.

I won't speak against what the Pope said, obviously he is the leader of one of the dominant religions which has to also act as a lobby group, however, every state should be independent from every religion and act/legislate in favour of all it's people, discriminating no one and taking care of all minorities within the sane state.

Arthur Soler

Jan 12th 2010, 00:18

@Alfred Vassallo

Quote… “Man has come a long way in evolving himself through the Centuries by casting away all those dark instincts which kept him imprisoned with lower species e.g. Slavery, Inquisitions, Witch hunts, Superstitions, etc. etc.” To which I say REALLY?

Remarkably, in this age of knowledge, science and enlightenment, 1.5 billion Muslims believe that the prophet Mohammed fly to Jerusalem on a winged golden horse alongside the Archangel Gabriel…and on the way back to Mecca they flew up to Heaven to chat with a few people there. Then there are 800 million Hindus who believe in Shiva or Vishnu, whom they regard as the only true God. Then there are the Jews who believe that the Creator of the Universe made them the chosen people of God and gave them a bit of desert which they claim as their Holy Land. Then there are 1.5 billion Christians who believe in the Virgin birth, the Trinity and the resurrection of Christ. Incredibly, these and countless other religions all believe that they are the only true religions of God. And they all try to impose their will on the rest.

You say that we have come a long way ........Really?

Arthur Soler

Jan 11th 2010, 23:58

Here we go again…..religious people dictating to secular governments how people should live their lives. Quote from C Zammit “All I am saying is that it is not right that they (gays) get married and be recognised as a family or get married couples social benefits”. Why is it not right? Is it because you think so or because the Pope says so?
Don’t gays and lesbians contribute to society in exactly the same way as heterosexual people? Don’t they have jobs and pay taxes like everyone else? Why should they be denied social benefits?

While I am a “normal” man who has been happily married to my wife for 40 years, I don’t consider gays and lesbians any less “normal”. They deserve equal respect and equal social rights. If they want to get married…then fine by me. And it should be fine by everyone else who genuinely cares about human beings irrespective of their race, colour, religion, or sexual orientation. Are we not all children of God? Or are we

mjbagley

Jan 11th 2010, 23:12

Re: Uganda - people who are gay have the right to apply for refugee status if they prove they are being persecuted because of their sexual orientation.

mjbagley

Jan 11th 2010, 23:09

Why all the fuss about gay marriage? Legalizing gay marriage doesn't mean that the Church it compelled or forced to accept it as a Catholic marriage - it's a secular issue. At least as a couple they can have the same rights that heterosexual couples can have - financial, legal, you name it. Whether they adopt or not is not my business - who am I to dictate what other people should do or not, or what is best for them?

Kevin Cassar

Jan 11th 2010, 21:13

@ C Zammit
"Soon it will be Malta! God Forbid! The pope is right 100% about this. We can't have people of the same sex getting married. What's next Gay adoption of Children. World is going backwards!"
Perhaps you prefer the sexual abuse of children to their adoption by gays to be perfectly in line with the Pope's views. The present pope spent 20 years in charge of the "Crimen Sollicitationis" rule and now heads it as the pope. If you don't know what that is look it up. All I can tell you is that it deals with the way the clergy and lay people had to keep secrecy with the threat of excommunication when dealing with known child abuse cases that went on for over 60 years in Ireland, USA, Brazil etc......even in Malta and Gozo.

Kevin Cassar

Jan 11th 2010, 21:06

First of all I would like to say that I am heterosexual and married. Like the rest of humanity (like it or not) I did not choose to be heterosexual but was born that way and am happy because it's normal (to me). Homosexuals (male and female) did not get to choose either and they are happy because it's normal (to them). Marriage is a social union recognized by law (with legal duties and benefits) and that is why it's something which both hetero and homosexuals would want it. If it was just for the sex nobody would get married since you can have it without getting married (even more of it possibly!) without the obligations that go with marriage. I don't expect the Church to change it's views or to accept gay weddings in it's institution but to impose it on the state is going outside it's rights and authority.

Arthur Soler

Jan 11th 2010, 20:01

Here we go again…..religious people dictating to secular governments how people should live their lives. Quote from C Zammit “All I am saying is that it is not right that they (gays) get married and be recognised as a family or get married couples social benefits”. Why is it not right? Is it because you think so or because the Pope says so?
Don’t gays and lesbians contribute to society in exactly the same way as heterosexual people? Don’t they have jobs and pay taxes like everyone else? Why should they be denied equal social benefits?

I am a “normal” man who has been happily married to my wife for 40 years, but I don’t consider gays and lesbians any less “normal”. They deserve equal respect and equal social rights. If they want to get married…then fine by me. And it should be fine by everyone else who genuinely cares about human beings irrespective of their race, colour, religion, or sexual orientation. Are we not all children of God? Or are we?

Dr Ing. Patrick Attard

Jan 11th 2010, 19:58

One year on from the excommunication, I am even more convinced that gay people have no place in this organisation. It's a shame that the wise words of Archbishop Paul Cremona whose compassionate and humble attitude as a great bridge-builder (http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20100110/opinion/our-pastoral-letter) is thwarted by a man who is obsessed about the evils of homosexuality.

Let us not forget that on the 1st October 1986, Josef Ratzinger wrote a letter to all Bishops that is understandable that hate-crimes against gays increase if they are awarded more civil rights.

The civil rights I am talking about are the right for a man to visit his gay partner in hospital and take medical decisions in case of an emergency. The right to take bereavement leave from work when your partner dies. Immigration rights for people who want to marry to a partner who is not an EU citizen. These rights do not in any way harm your institution of marriage.

Just live and let live.

Joe Xuereb

Jan 11th 2010, 19:41

1) I am against gay marriage. Heterosexual marriage is the business of heterosexuals. I am out of it and I should explain. Nature evolved so that a male - of any species - impregnates the female and they do what nature intended. Increase and enable the survival of the species. Nature's job begins and ends there. This staying together, promising this and that, is only a convenient social construct to maintain some social order. Of course it does not work because it cannot. But we persist. Trying to shore up an institution that is, and always has been, moribund and flawed. Given all this, I cannot understand why any self-respecting homosexual person would want to get married. C. Sammut, be careful what you pray for. You might just get it. A 'good' right-wing administration you say? I remember a graffiti on a school wall decades ago in London. 'Gay Oppression is Class Oppression' it ran. I didn't understand it then (even though I was a fully paid-up member of the gay brotherhood, one who lived his life privately as you say, as long as I shut up so that your good self did not get hot under the collar). cont./

Alfred Vassallo

Jan 11th 2010, 17:56

I cannot, and never will, be able to understand the term ‘Gay marriage’. What marriage???, the word marriage should always be understood to mean a bond between a Male and a female, nothing else, if used otherwise it will be a complete distortion of the word itself and whomsoever interprets it otherwise is mistaken, no matter how or what he says. Man has come a long way in evolving himself through the Centuries by casting away all those dark instincts which kept him imprisoned with lower species e.g. Slavery, Inquisitions, Witch hunts, Superstitions, etc. etc. and still is, and continue to be, in the making. But Gay Marriages are against nature itself and against the evolvement of Humans. Regress you might say. Freedom does not mean doing away with Basic, undisputed, human ingrained Laws, just to find an excuse to practice one’s ‘refined’ instincts, and I cannot understand how Governments consent to these Illogical demands.

C.Zammit

Jan 11th 2010, 17:55

@ C Galea- A member of my family is Gay. This does not mean that I change my views on an issue just for someone else. If a person is Gay it's up to him and can live his life but to be considered a family I can never and will never consider it as a valid marriage.If this Gay family member of mine gets married one day I will not attend any ceremony/party. Also can't accept his partner as part of my family. Joe Xuereb - I never would say that we should murder Gays like in Uganda. All I am saying is that it is not right that they get married and be recognised as a family or get married couples social benifits. They have the right to live their life and that's it. No To Gay Marraige! Hopefully when one day we will have a stupid goverment to pass such law there will be one of the biggest protests in the streets of Malta ever seen. I will be one to keep opposing this. Hopefully one day there will be a good far-right party and even go to power.That's the only way a country can cure

D.Bonello

Jan 11th 2010, 17:50

Thank God in a Gay marriage they cannot have babies like a normal man and woman do in a marriage. However, if Gays want to marry. let them marry and be happy!

C Galea

Jan 11th 2010, 17:26

Mr A Attard Being gay is nether a right nor is a desired or a request state I can assure you.It just happens. Further studies on this may be required from your part here.

A. Attard

Jan 11th 2010, 17:04

Gay marriage should never be approved. Gay people have the right to do whatever they want together as it's their own choice. But getting married means they are now a family and have the rights of a family. This includes adoption, and their way of life should not be reflected, enforced or improvised on other human beings.

Therefore, one has the right to be gay, but not to marry and have a status of a family and adopt.

Sean Fenech Adami

Jan 11th 2010, 16:33

Congractulations to the couple. I don't see why people want to interfere in peoples life if they are living peacefully. Don't hate - Congractulate

C Galea

Jan 11th 2010, 16:30

Dear Mr C. Zammit,
Are you and your comments for real? Have you ever considered that a dear member of your family could be gay ? Have you ever thought about what it would be like if it was you? Are these people humans being as they pay taxes like you do are educated as well as you etc etc? Oh and before you may answer to these remarks, kindly think about the fact of never say never?
cheers

Joe Xuereb

Jan 11th 2010, 16:29

C. Zammit. The pope would be well pleased about....... In Uganda at the moment, the parliament of that country is wanting to pass a law that would execute homosexuals and anybody who knows of such activity and fails to report it to the authorities. Is this what you want Zammit? No wonder Africans choose to come to Malta and Italy. They had better think again. And all this because two men (or two women) dare to show humanity affection towards each other rather than massacre each other as they do in the very lucrative boxing-ring. And all this in the name of a benevolent god.

C.Zammit

Jan 11th 2010, 15:42

Soon it will be Malta! God Forbid! The pope is right 100% about this. We can't have people of the same sex getting married. What's next Gay adoption of Children. World is going backwards!

C galea

Jan 11th 2010, 15:01

Sorry but these comments are non other than an attack on human rights. Religions should stick to attracting people and not to attacking them and their rights.