Kurt Sansone
Protests outside Maltese embassies over Jewish bones
Representatives of Jewish communities recently held peaceful protests in front of Malta's embassies in Tel Aviv and Washington to urge the Maltese government to ensure there is no interference with human bones at the Jewish catacombs in Rabat.
The Prime Minister has also received at least three letters of concern from US senators and a congressman representing Jewish communities on the controversy surrounding the discovery of the bones.
In one of the letters, sent to Lawrence Gonzi in December, Congressman Edolphus Ed Towns from New York asked the government to take the "appropriate steps to prevent any further disturbances at the Rabat Jewish catacombs".
Two Senators also wrote to the Prime Minister in December about the same issue, requesting the excavated remains to be returned to the catacombs "as soon as possible".
The year-long dispute concerns the discovery of what are believed to be Jewish catacombs in Rabat, and the Jewish community's request for the place to be treated like a burial ground rather than an archaeological find.
The representative of the Jewish community in Malta, Lawrence Attard Bezzina, said: "I had warned government the issue was going to come to this".
The lobbying is led by representatives of the ultra-orthodox International Society for the Preservation of Jewish Cemeteries, Atra Kadisha, which is involved in intense campaigns all over the world to protect what it considers to be Jewish burial sites. The group were in Malta last February to discuss with Heritage Malta the best way forward.
A major bone of contention was Heritage Malta's insistence to document each and every bone found by measuring and photographing it. The Jewish community objected to this.
The Prime Minister's Office is following the controversy closely but has refrained from entering into the merits of the debate.
"The government is ensuring the matter is dealt with in accordance with Maltese law, established international archaeological standards and procedures as well as in respect to Jewish rites and traditions," a spokesman for the Prime Minister said when asked about the letters.
The Superintendence of Cultural Heritage and Heritage Malta, he added, was handling the matter.
However, Mr Attard Bezzina complained that the Jewish community had been ignored by the heritage authorities.
"We do not want to embarrass the government. We are not happy with this pressure especially at a time when the government has a recession to concentrate on. However, Jewish communities abroad have understood that on our own we have not been successful in convincing the heritage authorities to treat the issue in a sensitive way," he said, insisting the Jewish community was waiting for the government to come up with an agreeable solution. A similar appeal was made by Labour cultural heritage spokesman Owen Bonnici, who said the Rabat catacombs must be treated with "utmost respect" since they were more than simple burial site of a high historical value.
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Joseph A Borg
Jan 27th 2010, 11:53
@ L Attard Bezzina: I would encourage you to read a bit about the "Holocaust Industry"
all the money Europe gave to Israel as WWII reparations hasn't helped the actual Auschwitz survivors living in israel, those that are still alive subsist in poverty. Survivors admit that they are treated better in Europe than in Israel…
Finkelstein is impressive…
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/
Raymond Sammut
Jan 24th 2010, 18:51
Australian Aboriginals have a long history of pain and anguish trying to recover hundreds of bones that had been removed from their burial sites and taken to different parts of the world --mostly the UK. The people who had removed these bones were not grave robbers. They were learned people ("archeological experts") acting without consulting the traditional owners. They had acted before the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Heritage Protection Act was enacted in 1984 by Federal Parliament to protect Aboriginal communities from any inadequacies of State and Territory laws.
It appears that Heritage Malta are not providing information on how they are dealing with the Rabat burial site. It's also alleged that materials have been removed from this site without consulting the affected community. There is unequivocal objection both from within Malta and from abroad on the manner Heritage Malta have ignored historical connections and sensitivities related to this site. It is not sufficient to say that we are acting within the existing Maltese laws. In my view, the Maltese Prime Minister, and Malta's Parliament, need to ask for a halt in activities on the Rabat site until the adequacy of the relevant Maltese laws are first ascertained.
L. Azzopardi
Jan 24th 2010, 17:10
Aboriginal bones have in fact been carbon dated etc. A quick Web search will show you that. You will probably also find the same around the world (including American Indians and so on).
What you term as disturbance other people term as reconstructing history's jigsaw puzzle. A lot of our ancestral knowledge today comes from archaeological studies.
Since this will also be my last - I cannot but leave a very small message to any foreigners reading this sometimes divine comedy commentary section.
See this: http://www.heritagemalta.org/
Then decided upon yourself, if this organisation is, as some people here, are trying to portray it.
Raymond Sammut
Jan 24th 2010, 14:56
@ Paul Caruana
The bones belong to people who were either of the early Christian faith (apostolic and post-apostolic) or of the Hebrew faith. However, what is significant is that the bones are from the same ethnic Jewish community who lived in Rabat long before the arrival of Christianity and who appear to have remained in Rabat until the arrival of Catholicism. Some --both Christians and Hebrews (along with Muslims)-- are likely to have left the island following the forced conversions that took place in the 15th century, leaving behind them the remains of their ancestors in this burial place.
According to this report, no claim is being made. It's only being asked for the remains not to be disturbed. This is common practice. For example, Australian Aboriginals do the same across the continent, and their burial sites are protected by Federal law. The Maltese government cannot simply say: this is Maltese law and therefore we go right ahead and start carbon testing as usual. The law cannot always cover all types of situations. It's for this reason that the Maltese Prime Minister has been approached on this issue by various concerned parties both in Malta and abroad.
ray sacco
Jan 24th 2010, 14:27
@l.attard bezzina:
you jews just cannot stop at playing the victims' part! if a jew is accused of something, you immediately yell the words 'hollocaust and anti-semitism'. and with these flags you butcher innocent people! the world stood by your people after WWII because you went through hell. but one day the world will learn to say enough of your hypocricy. yet again mr. attard bezzina, which country do you consider your motherland? malta or israel?
G.De Bono
Jan 24th 2010, 14:19
Law Attard Bezzina
Sorry, what do you expect when your comments are one side, warped historical events and full of puke (to use one of your own adjectives used further down) against Malta, Europeans, Christians, Palestenians and anything which as much dares to state facts about Israel or what factually happened in the past.
You are welcome not to contribute further if you're out of hogwash, however don't expect sane common people to bow down and accept false, one side fables as true (inkella nsabtu saqqajna ma l-art bhal vavi).
Furthermore, the actions taken locally (whoever it was) to bring the Rabat catacombs into the international (Israeli) fora, instigating concealed identity protestors, with as much falsity as the pseudo-facts written below is tantamount to Quisling. This country lacks a lot of patriotisim, in favour of so, to other countries, shame.
Law. Attard Bezzina
Jan 24th 2010, 13:13
@ G.debono and others like him. I have personally been called and accused of or sorts of things on this commentary page. Since again the subject is being spun to bash Israel, Jews etc ...etc ad nausea. The Jews were systematically chosen to be exterminated no other ethnic group other than the Jews and the Roma (gypsies) were so chosen.
Anti-Semitism is still prevalent today. Anyhow this is my last posting so you and all the others can have a field day spluttering whatever you want to write in this longest running audios commentary against us. With a few exceptions. So to be very crude - if you don't like in lump it.
Paul Caruana
Jan 24th 2010, 11:16
From what I can understand, one of the problems appears to be that the bones in question might very well include christian, as well as jewish remains. Therefore, it is unreasonable for one particular religious community to claim the entire remains as its own, and further claim the right to bury such remains according to its particular rites, potentially offending in the process the remains which belong to some other religious denomination.
G. De Bono
Jan 24th 2010, 10:13
@L.Attard Bezzina
Your point are quite bizarre
How many people died in WW2?
50-72 million people (some people estimate 61 million allies - 11 million axis)
How many Jews died in WW2?
6-7 million
Will you stop seeing just Israel and just Jews and start seeing people, irrelevent of what creed they are?
Who does not condem what happened to the Jews (the christians, the muslims, the hindu, the agnostics, the ethiesists, the toms and harrys) in WW2 is phony, who just thinks that it was one particular creed that suffered in that (or any other war) is just the same.
To attribute murder of jews to Europeans is like saying the Turks tried to assasinate Pope John Paul II. But with your fuzzy reasoning we can also say and attribute the murder and holocaust of the Palestenian people to all the Israeli people.
L. Attard Bezzina
Jan 23rd 2010, 23:12
I am off to Auschwitz to commemorate the Liberation of the Nazi Death Camps were more than 1 million Jews were murdered by Europeans just because they were Jews, be they religious, liberal, Athiests, "socialist" Jews the Nazis, fascists and their allies made no difference. The world just turned a blind eye then, But we will not forget nor let that happen again ever. There were no bones left there to bury just ashes of Jews from nearly all European countries, Gypsies, homosexuals, Poles and others. Just simple men, women and children...
G.De Bono
Jan 23rd 2010, 21:46
@L.Attard Bezzina
Personally I see this as a storm in a tea cup given the historical value of this, especially if the end result was going to be the same - ie, removal of bones for examination and loggin. But what's holding you opening a case in court if you feel the authorities have an obligation to you which is not kept? What is the point of foreigners, who don't know a cahoot of Malta (see picture) protesting (and hiding their faces (in shame?)) I can understand you lobbying locally with the government, authorities, courts, Eurpean court of rights at most. But who cares about a bunch of men in foreign countries?
Law. Attard Bezzina
Jan 23rd 2010, 19:04
email to Jewish Community of Malta dated February 16, 2009 - From Heritage Malta
It has been agreed by both the Superintendence of Cultural Heritage and Heritage Malta that the best procedure to follow for the first part of the proposed intervention would be the following:
" No bone material is touched or removed from its current place until all the legal issues from the Maltese end are cleared, and until a clear methodology of how the said bones are to be collected is created and approved.
In the meantime the visible bones can be covered in situ. Covering shall be of a temporary nature and shall consist of a layer of geo-textile over which may be placed a layer of washed gravel of not less than 2cm. "
THEY NEVER KEPT THIS AGREEMENT
Raymond Sammut
Jan 23rd 2010, 14:52
@ L.Azzopardi
You avoid the question. Are you commenting on behalf of Heritage Malta? Are you representing them in any way?
Christian Sciberras
Jan 23rd 2010, 14:30
Defiling holy places my socks. Everything is research material, science unlike other petty subjects, is not discriminatory, be it on Catholic remains, Jewish, Pagan or what the heck there is out there.
Goverment material, full stop.
L.Azzopardi
Jan 23rd 2010, 13:21
@Raymond Sammut
As I stated, and especially following your comment to Mr. Agius. You will keep on saying no, for the sake of saying no - and bring religious sentiments, purely for saying no. What you are stating about Heritage Malta, a very well respected organisation in Malta and beyond is hilarious.
ray sacco
Jan 23rd 2010, 12:35
@andrew agius:
i totally agree with you. if only the majority of jews had your way of thinking! all the problems in the middle east would be solved! but unfortunatly, that's not so! one can only hope that the new jewish generation bear your good sense and not the destructive antiquated ideas which some 'divine' contributors on this site embrace.
Raymond Sammut
Jan 23rd 2010, 11:20
@ Andrew Agius
Your comment doesn't make sense. It is totally out-of-kilter. The issue on hand here is how Heritage Malta is dealing with this cemetery/catacombs.
Heritage Malta has a duty to restoration and education. Instead, it is being reported here that materials have been removed allegedly for scientific purposes. The idea that bones have been taken from a cemetery for carbon testing is repulsive to say the least. This burial site appears to be modern on the historical scale. We are not talking about Punic or Roman tombs here. Not even the St Paul’s Catacombs (400AD). This burial place may have been decommissioned not long before the official conversions to Roman Catholicism at around the 16th century -- that's when official records of births, confirmations, marriages, etc. commenced at Malta's parishes.
Heritage Malta cannot remain silent on this issue. They owe an explanation to the general public on the restoration procedures, and on whether this site can become accessible for educational purposes. Most importantly, we also need an assurance that this site will not be turned into a tourist attraction like the one across the road. I cannot find any relevant information on their website.
Andrew Agius
Jan 23rd 2010, 00:28
Ray: At last? Hardly. The world is marked by Socialist Jews. Jesus - the world's most influential Socialist was a Jew. Do not, I beg you, be blinded by the likes of Attard Bezzina who would see us seperated from the rest of the world through some ridiculous imaginary bloodline or pseudo ideology that sets us apart - that's what causes hatred and bigotry. it may sound trite but I am a citizen of the world and men are my brothers - any seperation is hatred and bigotry. My DNA and maternal bloodline is Jewish but it might just as well be Chinese, Arabic, Asian or Martian for all it matters. New Testament, Old Testament, Torah, Talmud or Mahabharat "Do unto others..." is the way forward. True Judaism and true Christianity like true Buddhism is true Socialism and the sooner we all realise that the better. Now, in the spirit of that please respect the dead and do unto us as you would have us do unto you.
L.Azzopardi
Jan 22nd 2010, 20:03
Sammut
What's with you - doing investigative acts on people?
No I am not part of the board - are you part of any board or are you just plainly out of good arguements. So according to you I do not know what's going with the freeport extension as I am not part of the board?
What has been removed from the site? What are you insinuating, that Heritage Malta are grave robbers now?
Yes - we know they were ordinary people - you would find so were the first settlers on these islands ca 6000 years ordinary people - So? Define extraordinary people please? Neandethals did not live here. Well modern ones maybe.
You don't carry research on bones of your own people? What law are you citing. There are not days old catacombs. You are taking this so beyond realism now.
Raymond Sammut
Jan 22nd 2010, 18:55
@ L.Azzopardi -- "Heritage Malta is clear on what it wants to achieve, within the confines of respect to the burial ground - notwithstanding all the faiths buried there." I do not find your name on the list of board members and chairpersons of Heritage Malta. Are you commenting on their behalf? Heritage Malta needs to make a public statement and explain its position. For example, the Maltese public has a right to know what has been removed from this site and why. This is historically a religious site as much as any other cemetery on Malta -- except that it had been neglected. There is no science here. The people buried in these catacombs were ordinary people living in Rabat; just like the people living in Rabat today. You don't carry out scientific work on the bones of your own people. It's a violation of religious freedom to which the citizen is entitled. Whatever has been removed needs to be returned, and Heritage Malta needs to make clear to the public what its mission is in regard to this site. There is no indication in this report that Heritage Malta has done anything of the kind.
ray sacco
Jan 22nd 2010, 17:46
@l.attard bezzina: who was there first: the chicken or the egg? when you solve this question, you can tell me whether palestinians or israelis or whatever name they had lived on that holy land. can you leave ancient history out of it! who cares who lived there two thousand years ago!it has absolutely NOTHING to do with what's going on today! so why not go back seventy years ago? who lived there in that period? this is not rational reasoning! it's because the majority of israelis argue in your same way that a fair solution has not been found yet. and you try to consolidate your argument with what an israeli representative said about moses??!! lol!
ray sacco
Jan 22nd 2010, 17:23
@andrew agius: at last: an honest progressive socialist jew who condemns what is wrong, from whereever it comes. that all jews supports what's going on in the occupied territories i do not believe, but i do believe that the great majority do so. in fact, the only israeli leader who was serious in peace talks was the socilaist rabin. and he paid with his life for that.
L.Azzopardi
Jan 22nd 2010, 12:56
@Raymond Sammut
Heritage Malta is clear on what it wants to achieve, within the confines of respect to the burial ground - notwithstanding all the faiths buried there. It is maybe high time, that you try to understand what is being proposed, as I seem to understand that whatever the case - you will say no, just for saying, no. And bringing religious sentiments to foment backing for it.
We've already had an American madam living in Rome thinking that this is the United States and we're going to build a motorway (highway for you Ms) bang in the middle of the cemetary - when this is clearly not the case.
Reading your comments, you would forgive some foreigners thinking that someone is proposing to destroy tombs or the Jews in Malta.
I thank God, that previous and future scientists would not heed to your extremeisim, as otherwise, today, we would still believe that the theory of evolution is a myth, charles darwin a story teller and Adam and Eve just appeared from nothing.
We do not want to live in the stone age - thank you. Let MORE history be discovered and written - it serves us all positively.
Raymond Sammut
Jan 22nd 2010, 05:07
St Agatha's Catacombs in Rabat constitute a burial site of a Hellenised Jewish community that had existed long before the advent of Christianity on Malta. The fact that this site consists of a mixture of Judaist and Christian tombs shows that this community was undergoing conversions to Christianity (not Roman Catholicism) before the site became ultimately disused. It also shows that the site remained active for several centuries following the establishment of early Christianity on Malta.
The site is clearly not an archeological "find". For example, there are no indications that excavation works were needed. Also, its existence had always been known. The site most likely became disused following the arrival of the Inquisition on Malta when everyone, including the early Christians, were required to convert to Roman Catholicism. Sicilian Inquisitors were active on Malta as early as the 16th-century, and Spanish Inquisitors even earlier.
Heritage Malta has a primary duty to conservation practice, cultural heritage and education. The site is to be regarded as a burial place whose contents are to be treated in accordance with the requirements of both the Judaist and Christian religions. It is clear that Heritage Malta needs to clarify its position.
Andrew Agius
Jan 21st 2010, 21:53
@Ray Sacco. of course not - these pages don't tend to bring out many moderates. As a Secular, Socialist, Jew I condemn many of the actions of the Israeli state and also condemn the actions of many Palestinians. Do all Maltese agree with everything that Malta as a state does? You seem to think that all jews place Israel above their place of birth - that's either bigotry or extreme naivety. The majority of Jews are, like the majority of Christians, more concerned with daily life than ideology. I think it's important that the diaspora speak out against Israel where necessary - Be clear on this - there is no official Jewish party line or ideology. The quote below from Martin Luther King is merely convenient for the argument. Israel has a right to exist, should exist, should be safe and secure, but not at all costs and I fear anyone who thinks differently. "Never again" is not our sole right. Hate is hate, facism is facism. There seems to be quite a bit on both sides here as usual.
C.Sammut
Jan 21st 2010, 19:02
L.Attard Bezzina Being a Jew does not need to make you an ardent support of Israel (and its bullying of the Palestenians) as much as any Christian here needs to be an ardent support of Jerusalem or the Holy See. Try and seperate Judaisim from Israel, one is relgious faith and the other is (supposed to be) a lay state. Strangely, for Jews, Israel and religion is one and the same thing - u ara ma tazzardax tikkritika lill Israel - Does not help your argument, trust me or believe your ilk. Fuq Mose etc... man, that's a story - please tell me you also don't believe adam and eve really existed and that the whole sin really came out of eating an apple because if this is the case.. what's the point of Sacco wasting his time here.
ray sacco
Jan 21st 2010, 17:57
@andrew agius:
quote:"most of the jews disagree with much of what israel tries to do"
what you are saying does not agree with comments from jews on this site. not a single jew has had the guts to condemn israel's massacre of the Palestinian people. in fact most of them declared their support. the horrible deeds that the catholic church did in the past does not mean we can continue repeating them. so, as you can see, the idea of not all jews are zionists is not the picture we are getting here. the debate here is the hypocrisy of people who are making such fuss over ancient bones while they themselves support the gradually planned extermination of a whole population.
L. Attard Bezzina
Jan 21st 2010, 17:31
Who does Israel belong to? An ingenious example of speech and politics occurred recently in the United Nations Assembly and made the world community smile. A representative from Israel began: 'Before beginning my talk I want to tell you something about Moses. When he struck the rock and it brought forth water, he thought,'What a good opportunity to have a bath!' He removed his clothes, put them aside on the rock and entered the water. When he got out and wanted to dress, his clothes had vanished. A Palestinian had stolen them.' The Palestinian representative jumped up furiously and shouted,'What are you talking about? The Palestinians weren't there then.' The Israeli representative smiled and said, 'And now that we have made that clear, I will begin my speech................ Nothwithstanding all the anti-Semitism of some contriutors and the dirty tactics by HM in tryng to splt the Jewish Community by bringing in CER we will win and we will survive !
Andrew Agius
Jan 21st 2010, 11:11
Take a step back here.
The debate is about the remains of these people - not about what is happening in Israel or Palestine.
Do we have the right to desecrate Christian graves and remains in protest at the wrongs commited by Christians? And let's face it they far far outweigh the wrongs done by Jews. No of course not! This is just sickening Anti-Semitism. Not all Jews are Zionists, most Jews disagree with much of what Israel tries to do, despite any mandate. Jews are not only of Israel, they are worldwide and deserve the same respect as Christians, Muslims and Secular communities.
Do the right thing.
ray sacco
Jan 20th 2010, 21:02
@ian ellul:
since, i presume, you were born in malta and you are a maltese citizen have you accepted malta as your homeland or do you consider israel as your motherland?
S.Saliba
Jan 20th 2010, 16:38
@Ian Ellul.
Have you ever heard the Pope asking the Christians population to go and live in the Vatican? I haven’t. Have you ever heard a Saudi Arabian king urging the World Muslims to go and live in Saudi Arabia?
Do you know that even in Iran there are Iranians that are not Muslims? In Egypt, there are Egyptians that are Jews and Christians.
In Malta we do have Maltese citizens that aren’t Christians. What I mean: A citizenship-based on dogma doesn’t exist and it shouldn’t. To do so, a country automatically distances itself from norms of both democracy and secularism.
The Jewish law dictates that Jewish nation is forbidden to have their own entity in exile, prior to the coming of the Messiah. Any explanation please?
Again I ask: How many Jews should immigrate and live in Israel? According to the Zionists agenda, all Jews should go and live in Israel. What about none-Jews? Should they be annihilated to give room for more immigrants-Jews? Any way this is exactly what Israel is doing by occupying more of the Palestinians lands and the Palestinians have ALL RIGHT to defend themselves by all ways and means.
Christopher Grech
Jan 20th 2010, 11:41
It is a case of the journalists and historians being wrong.
The title should have read "Protests outside Maltese embassies over Hebrew bones".
Hebrew means people from the 12 tribes of Israel, or better still from the patriarch Eber (Hebrew). All Hebrews might have similar symbols collectively, especially before Christ.
Jews of the Judah tribe is one thing, and should Jews be equated with the Jewish religion, that is another. Most of the 10 tribes of Isreal did not practice the "Jewish" religion.
In fact, even if one quotes the Jewish Almanac or genealogy they admit that most Jews are Ashkenazi, and hence NOT of the tribe of Judah (or Benjamin) of the House of Judah.
Ian Ellul
Jan 20th 2010, 10:23
@ s.saliba - quote = "the very concept of a Jew-State contradict Secularism and democracy. "
So does the Vatican State and every single Arab/Muslim state of which there are 25. Don't see you commenting on these! Israel is a Jewish state - period. If you had an idea of what a Jew is, then you would have known better! Yet, in the region, Israel is the sole and only secular democracy! You claim that Jews only went to the Land of Israel following WW2 - yet Arafat himself rejects such a claim. On 13/11/1973, Arafat went to the UN with his gun and stated that Jews went and took over the land in 1881! So you see your propaganda (like Arafat's) does not wash because your sole aim is to deligitimise the inalieniable rights of the Jewish people to their land! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRUczo3meZ0
ray sacco
Jan 19th 2010, 21:19
@ian ellul:
who said that i agree with the extermination of the american indians and aborigins in australia? i believe that was a very dark episode for christian europe. all these depressing episodes in history that you are mentioning does not justify the misery that the israeli state is causing to a whole population. are you saying that we can continue with massacres and genocides just for the sake that there were such events in history? no one can bring back those decimated humans from history. but present situations like palestine, kurdistan and other such cases should be solved to stop more sufferings. and the jews, out of all people, should know much better!
S.Saliba
Jan 19th 2010, 19:58
@Ian Ellul
@ ray sacco - no,
Correction please?
Quote:
‘Ignoring 4000 years of Jewish history in the land of Israel will not wash.’
Certainly, Arab or Palestinian Jews lived for centuries in Palestine without any major conflicts. No one could deny what you are saying. The question isn’t about whether the Jew existed or not it’s more about how much Jews will have to live and co-exist with the Palestinians. The real conflict began when the Jews (That were expelled from Europe were forced to leave Europe to Palestine). I mean why the Palestinians are made to pay for Hitler’s terrorism?
How a Jew population of approximately 16 Millions should live on a piece of land that could only accommodate 4 or 8 Millions?
By the way the very concept of a Jew-State contradict Secularism and democracy.
Peter Korsten
Jan 19th 2010, 13:55
"A major bone of contention [...]"
You guys at the Times of Malta have a wicked sense of humour. :)
Ian Ellul
Jan 19th 2010, 13:00
@ ray sacco - no, I will contend and go with your argument to show you how wrong you are. Ignoring 4000 years of Jewish history in the land of Israel will not wash. You have the habit of picking on just one item from a whole argument and ignore everything else, which does your credibility (sic!) a world of good! If as you want to argue, the Jews invaded and stole a land inhabited by another people, even if this LIE was true, then the Jews would not have done worse than Australia, Canada, USA, Mexico, Chile, Argentina, Peru, Venezuela, Bolivia, Colombia, Equador, Uruguay and Pakistan. If you are right, then Jews have done no worse than the French & Spanish with the Basques, Turkey & Iraq with the Kurds, Greece & Turkey with Cyprus or England with the Scotts, Welsh and Irish! Yet no words from you for these! So you see, you ain't got a leg to stand on 'cause you ain't got an argument. If it is ok for all of these, how much more so for us that we have maintained a continuous presence in our land for 4000 years!
ray sacco
Jan 19th 2010, 12:18
@ian ellul:
and you have the ardour to talk about UN resolutions! you named only one resolution. why don't you name the hundreds of UN resolution which called on israel to pull out from the occupied territories and stop the blood shed of innocent lives!
ray sacco
Jan 19th 2010, 12:12
@ian ellul:
so you contend your argument on an ancient book!!! a book which you believe is holy! but have you any proof of that? and what do you mean by 'ancient homeland'? so according to your argument, nations' frontiers must go back to biblical times! lol. what a laugh! just imagine! all american and australian citizens go back to your ancestors' countries! it's not divinity that makes people like you different, but the arrogance to declare that your people and your land are divine! we proclaim malta as our country because we were born here and our great great grandfathers were born here too. that is the natural way for a human race to evolve in a nation not by some divine call! i was born here and accepted malta as my country. have you?
Ian Ellul
Jan 19th 2010, 10:00
@ s. saliba - you want Jews to produce a contract? The Torah is our contract & neither Christians nor Muslims have denied this. The Arab claim to Israel is that the Jews lost possession of it because we did not become Muslim! Israel is where Jewish spiritual, religious & political identity was shaped. Here Jews first attained to statehood, created cultural values of national & universal significance & gave to the world the eternal Book of Books. Impelled by our historic & traditional attachment, Jews strove in every generation to re-establish themselves in their ancient homeland. Unlike any country in the world, the whole world confirmed our rights on the land of Israel through the Balfour Declaration of 2/11/1917 & re-affirmed in the Mandate of the League of Nations as well as the UN resolution of 29/11/1947. WE THEREFORE OWN THE LAND OF ISRAEL BY DIVINE MANDATE & BY VIRTUE OF OUR NATURAL & HISTORIC RIGHT & ON THE STRENGTH OF THE RESOLUTION OF THE UN GENERAL ASSEMBLY.
On the other hand, have you got a contract for Malta? Has any other nation got a contract for the land they settled? The answer to these is NO!
S.Saliba
Jan 18th 2010, 15:54
@LAttard Bezzina As a loyal citizen of Malta I would like to make it clear that: Malta is sovereign country. The constitution of Malta applicable on all the citizens of Malta. The issue of the bones will be handled by Heritage Malta according the Maltese laws not by the laws of the USA, Ben Gurion, Sharon or Ehud Barak. Period. Let me see what the Bible says about the contract of the Holy land which God promised Israel. In the Bible I read: 1 Samuel 15:3 ‘Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'’ My good Jews friends and I disassociate ourselves from the Zionists ambitions and such terror- thirsty- for blood -God. Equally we condemn any holy war by ‘secular
ray sacco
Jan 18th 2010, 12:58
@ian ellul: you are right mr. ellul: ENOUGH IS ENOUGH...of spilled innocent blood! how can you talk about human rights? human rights are there to protect humans not bones! living humans who are being slaughtered and humiliated!
ray sacco
Jan 18th 2010, 12:50
@ l.attard bezzina: you closed your chapter on this site because you lost your credibilty when you declared you support the massacre of innocent people and you deteriorated your credibility by involving god. chapters and verses were written by men not by god. its people like you who, then, manipulate historic literature as they please. morbid and sickening mentalities belong to people who had their ancestors slaughtered in a genocide and then, instead of appreciating life, take revenge with innocent blood! regarding my bones and remains: i don't care what happens to them; i care more for my life.
Ian Ellul
Jan 18th 2010, 10:46
The issue here is the reburial of the abused remains of Jews from the vandalised catacombs. The site belongs to Maltese Jewish heritage. Heritage Malta and the superintendance of cultural heritage are in breach of the human rights of Jews in Malta as well as breaking Maltese and international legislation. They promised that by June 09 latest they would have had a solution. Shame on Heritage Malta and the superintendance of cultural heritage - enough is enough!
L Attard Bezzina
Jan 17th 2010, 20:27
@ s.saliba & r.sacco - What a morbid sickening mentality. Even if I give you chapter & verse you would still find some pathetic excuse to try to turn the beans. Why don't you volunteer to join your terrorists friends. Anyhow this is my last contribution because you can't reason with worbed thinking. You can try to rewrite history - but the saying goes that it's those who survive that write history. I hope your earthly remains / bones won't be vandalised and desecrated. Cause you will not find anyone to try to get you reinterned. So now boys go play with your marbles. Chapter closed.
ray sacco
Jan 17th 2010, 20:18
@l.attard bezzina:
god promised the holy land to israel!!!!???? are you serious? where you there when this happened?????so in your own words, god is directing israel to spill blood for this holy land!!!!! if there is a god, and whatever god, i'm sure that he would tell you that no land is worth all the blood, misery and humiliation that the israeli state is executing on the palestinian people! but you seem to have a different picture of god.
ray sacco
Jan 17th 2010, 17:18
@l.attard bezzina:
the living flesh and blood people who were living on that land, whether you call them palestinians or whatever you like, were there before the jews, who after all were europeans! the name you give them is not important. the fact that these people were living in peace in their homes and were expelled from their homes or killed is. the wars waged by the arabs are a historic event of some 30 years ago. israel signed peace treaties with these arab countries so why not with the palestinians? the real reason is that isael wants the whole lot of land and is ready to keep on spilling blood to get it! bloody historic events or arguments of who got there first will not solve the problem. respect for human lives and refrain from greed from both sides will.
S.Saliba
Jan 17th 2010, 16:23
@LAttard Bezzina
@ray sacco
What’s going on?
I am seeing a swap of misleading incorrect information and fabrication of historical facts.
Quote: ‘The Holy land which G-D promised Israel.’ –
Unquote:
Where you got this from please? Who wrote the contract? Was there a notary? Shall I take it ‘Israel’ is waging a holy war?
Quote: Yes I supported Israel in its war against Hamas and still do. If this aint to your liking though.
Unquote: I will be next to you in line only if you prove that:
First: Hitter was a Palestinian, Muslim or an Arab.
Second: The Palestinian’s terrorist was inhabitant when the Jews that escaped the Holocaust were expelled from Europe.
Failure to quote Biblical text in connection with ‘God-Jew-contract’ or proving any of these two point would automatically discredit your comment on the whole matter.
ray sacco
Jan 17th 2010, 15:48
so now you spilled the beans and declared that you fully support the israeli massacre in gaza, and you consider yourself as religious??????? you lost friends through palestinian terror, what about the palestinians who lost their children, parents, etc. don't you think that this is a vicious cycle that will never stop if the israeli government won't come to it's senses and lose it's greedy craving for more land at the price of more blood. you have the right for your opinion, but don't come here trying to teach us lessons in decency and morality! if you are a maltese citizen, you have to comply with our rules and laws. if you don't consider yourself so, you can always move to your promised land!
LAttard Bezzina
Jan 16th 2010, 17:45
@ray sacco - the arabs who fancy themselves from 1966 onwards as palestinians are there own worst enemies. They are hated by all the arabs who only use them as bait to hit Israel and the Jews with. They already have a state in Jordan which was given to an Arab sheik from Arabia for services rendered against the Ottoman empire by the British in what was British mandated Palestain. The Holy land which G-D promised Israel. After this curving of the promised land. The Jewish people accepted to give more than half of what was left. The Arabs did not except this and waged war after war against Israel. Which they all lost. Terrorism didnt start after 1967 but has been a constant fact of life for Israel throughout its existance. I lost a girlfriend and many dear friends to Palestinian Arab terror. Do you expect me to pity Arabs? No way! I am not a bigot or a fanatic and if you hit me I will hit you harder so you will not think of ever doing it again. Yes I supported Israel in its war against Hamas and still do. If this aint to your liking though.
ray sacco
Jan 16th 2010, 10:09
@l.attard bezzina:
it seems you really did not read my comments. i condemned hamas and every terrorism coming from arabs towards civilian israelis. but yet again, comment after comment, none of the jews writing here did ONCE condemn the terrorism of the israeli state towards palestinian civilians! not ONCE. and this is what bugs me mr attard bezzina. you are making all this fuss about bones that you say belong to your loved ones. you do not even know who they are, let alone loved them! it would be better to waste your energy protesting to save human lives in palestine.
simon saliba
Jan 15th 2010, 21:16
@ Ian Ellul
No occupation = no need for self defense. Can you see the condition that creates the violence? Is it too invisible?
Have a look at this link please. Do you call this terrorism self-defense?
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/12/2009122174731136137.html
Sorry I forgot to paste the link in my earlier post.
Law. Attard Bezzina
Jan 15th 2010, 17:49
@ray sacco - you are hell bent in distorting the truth and pushing your own agenda which is Israel bashing. You can do this till kingdom high I won't bite. I have on several occasion expressed myself on the Arab problem with Israel in other fora and your trying to hijack the issue of the Jewish catacombs by goading me and others will gave no effect on me. have you ever condemed palestinian terrorism against Israeli or Jewish civilians? The issue here is our quest to rebury these bones in the vandalised catacombs which all indications show that they are Jewish. The site belongs to Maltese Jewish heritage. Why this bugs you is beyond comprehension.we have a moral duty to see that these people are reburied. Heritage Malta and the superintendance of cultural heritage are breaking our human rights and Maltese and international legislation. We have been patient enough. They promised that by June 09 latest they would have completed their policy of how to act in such matters and get back to us did you hear from them?
ray sacco
Jan 15th 2010, 15:08
corner the mouse. don't leave any way out. make it feel trapped, desperate. it will attack you, even if it knows it stands no chance. you kill it.............. and then go tell the world it was in self defence! what a laugh!!!!
ray sacco
Jan 15th 2010, 12:50
condemn what you say!!!!!!!!!!!!! self defence you say!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! incredible!!!!!!! so i was right after all! you all do condone with the israeli genocide of the palestinian people. if you still don't know what's happening: why, in the first place, is israel occupying palestinian land? wouldn't israel be financially better off if they pulled out and let the palestinians on their own? there is only one logical answer: that israel wants the land and is taking it metre by metre, little by little. because that is what you all believe! the land is yours because its written in the bible! israel is not happy with what the british gave them! and for that they are willing to keep on spilling blood! and you come here protesting about bones?????? really pathetic!
simon saliba
Jan 15th 2010, 11:40
@ Ian Ellul
No occupation = no need for self defense. Can you see the condition that creates the violence? Is it too invisible?
Have a look at this link please. Do you call this terrorism self-defense?
As for the issue in question (the bones) click the following link please:
Israel Admits Stealing Palestinian Organs
http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2009/12/21/israel-admits-stealing-palestinian-organs/
Too much of respect indeed!!!! What do you think?
Ian Ellul
Jan 15th 2010, 10:12
@ Ray Sacco --- condemn what? our people's right to self-defense? Hallina!
ray sacco
Jan 15th 2010, 09:19
@i.attard bezzina & ian ellul:
i never wrote that i hate jews or that israel have no right to exist. on the contrary, i believe israel has the right to exist and its citizens have the right to live in peace. i also wrote that the jews suffered a lot through history. what i find pathetic is all this fuss about ancient bones while israel is imprisoning a whole population in misery and killing innocent people regularly. and what's more, none of the jews who contributed with comments on this site condemned this! now, do you have the gutts to do that?
Law. Attard Bezzina
Jan 14th 2010, 21:47
@ ray sacco - Saturday Review XLVII (August 1967), pg. 76, and reprinted in "This I Believe: Selections from the Writings of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr." (New York, 1971), King writes:
"...You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist.' And I say... When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews - this is G-d's own truth... And what is anti-Zionist? It is the denial to the Jewish people of a fundamental right that we justly claim for the people of Africa and freely accord all other nations of the Globe. It is discrimination against Jews, my friend, because they are Jews. In short, it is anti-Semitism... Let my words echo in the depths of your soul: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews - make no mistake about it."
Ian Ellul
Jan 14th 2010, 14:15
@ray sacco
the BIG difference here is that these bones have not been discovered! This is NOT a newly discovered archeological site. The existence of this Jewish cemetery has been known for centuries. Heritage Malta has no ownership of any grave site in Malta! The bones belong where they actually belong - buried in their graves not in plastic bags.
ray sacco
Jan 14th 2010, 11:12
@ian ellul
yet again you condemned the arab apetite for jewish blood but refrained to condemn israeli apetite for palestinian blood! regarding the ancient bones of unknown people (since you're more interested in ancient ashes then living humans) which you're making all this fuss on: since you are a maltese citizen, you should stick to maltese rules and laws. its not the first time ancient bones have been discovered. whether they are muslims, christians or whatever religion, they belong to the department responsable to maltese heritage, in this case heritage malta. stop playing the victim part. your people suffered a lot through the years in history and the world recognise that. but now that's history, something to learn from and not to be repeated. thats why you should know better.
Ian Ellul
Jan 14th 2010, 10:18
@ ray sacco
I condemn violence and do sympathise with victims. I therefore condemn the unrelenting Arab appetite for Jewish blood.
However, it would be interesting to see if people like yourself have anything to say about the subject here or as I suspect you and your chums here just took the opportunity to use this article as a platform for gratuitous Israel (read Jewish) bashing!
As a Jew I demand the remains abused by Heritage Malta are returned to their burial ground IMMEDIATELY!
ray sacco
Jan 14th 2010, 09:28
@ian ellul:
i am maltese, and my commotion is not for the palestinian people but for the suffering, misery and humiliation of a whole population. be it the palestinian problem, the appartite policy in south africa or the holocoust during W.W.II, suffering remains suffering, no matter the time or race. i condemn violence from where ever it comes, hamas included. now, do you condemn it the same way?
ray sacco
Jan 14th 2010, 09:17
@raymond cachia:
hamas is a terrorist group, i agree and i condemn their violent ways just as i condemn the isaeli government violent acts. but hamas were in fact indirectly created by israel. the p.l.o. has been engaged in peace talks for years without achieving anything. u.s. president after president were only puppets in the hands of the powerful american jews. so isn't it obvious that the palestinian people give up on the so called peace talks, which in fact are only taking everyone for a ride, and look somewhere else........and then came hamas! they were voted in by their desperate, miserable people. who can blame them! and what do you mean that the palestinian people do not exist!!!!????? these people were there before israel was created. you cannot just eliminate or erase them! i am not saying that israel should not have been created but that there should be a solution for both people, without any sufferings to any part. but israel does not seem intrerested in one!
June Darby
Jan 13th 2010, 17:59
I am an American living in Rome who heard about this issue, I would be horrified if the American government did something as callous as this. In fact I remember in the early 90s when an African Burial ground was found on the construction site of a federal building in Manhattan, where real estate is extremely valuable, the American government, scrapped the million dollar project, and preserved the site as a monument to the African slaves that died there. I doubt too many people were able to trace their ancestors back to that site, but the American government recognized the tragedy of those who died there and how meaningful it was to the African American community and built a fitting memorial and preserved the site consistent with the desires of the African American community. You can read about the site here africanburialground.gov . I don't see why the Maltaese government would not pursue similar action and be sensitive to the Jewish community's concerns and religious practices and accommodate what sounds like a very reasonable request to preserve the site and allow for a religious reburial.
Andrew Jones
Jan 13th 2010, 16:10
Having heard of this controversy here in Australia, we too are very disturbed at the behaviour of the Maltese authorities.
Respect for the deceased, as well as for their religious and cultural traditions, is a basic decency and consideration that should be guaranteed in any civilized society.
In this country dozens of multi-million dollar projects have been postponed and even abandoned, when the authorities realized that the project was encroaching upon ancient aboriginal burial grounds.
No way would the Australian governemt permit desecrating the remains of any human being or offending their descendents.
It is heartbreaking to see Jewish people having to publicily demonstrate and plead for this basic right.
Ian Ellul
Jan 13th 2010, 11:12
@ ray sacco:
Are you Maltese? if so, why all this commotion for Palestinians? Stick to the subject of this news article if you're capable of such a feat - otherwise your own accusations at others (simply because they happen to be Jewish) apply equally to yourself. I suggest you refrain from throwing stones whilst lodged in a glass house!!! ;-)
Raymond Cachia
Jan 12th 2010, 23:24
What’s there to catalogue or measure? It is not like they found the ‘missing link’.
These are human bones, just like you would find in any graveyard in Malta, except much older and have been known about and neglected for years. It is a well know historical fact that the Jews were already settled here, along with the Phoenicians, hundreds of years before the Christian era.
It may surprise many, but we Maltese were not always “Catholics’ as they would like us all to believe. In “Catholic Malta” today, there are many Maltese who would like to get rid of this label, myself included, since my fellow citizens belong to many other faiths, including pagans and those of no faith at all. Why tarnish us all with the same brush?
Should not all religions in Malta be equally respected? Why did not Heritage Malta co-operate with the Jewish community to guide them in handling these bones with the respect that Judaism requires? As a Maltese Jew, I would have expected no less.
The stance being taken by the Government (and the Archaeological Department) is so hard-headed and childish and gives nothing but bad publicity to Malta’s name.
Raymond Cachia
Jan 12th 2010, 23:06
@Ray Sacco and the like.
Palestinians are massacred by Hamas who use civilians as shields.
Truth is that Palestinians are actually growing quite robust on all that foreign aid from the West!
You are all being taken for fools by the Islamists/EU Propaganda.
Read what Zahir Muhsein, leader of the al-Sa'iqa Organization and member of the PLO leadership said in his statement to a Dutch newspaper in 1977.
"The Palestinian people do not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese.
Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct 'Palestinian people' to oppose Zionism for tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa. While as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem.
However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan."
ray sacco
Jan 12th 2010, 13:08
@l.attard bezzina:
i thought you said you are a maltese citizen! if so, why all this commotion when someone mentions israel? i thought you were going to distance yourself and condemn the massacre of the palestinian people! but you didn't, meaning, as i wrote, you do condone with it! so why are you making all this fuss? puke aside, you seem to care more for some hundreds of years old bones than precious human lives! and you regard yourself as religious!!!!!!!???????
Law. Attard Bezzina
Jan 11th 2010, 19:50
@raysacco & Jellies-take your anti-Israel (Jewish) puke somewhere else. @lazzopardi your ancestors probably had no choice either convert or be banished."Bones being put in bags" is against the agreement reached with HM.They should have been buried and not moved out of the catacombs.Local archeoleogists do not have the expertise in this field and we brought & offered Israeli & oher experts to assist HM in this task.They were to work under the supervision of HM. And the bones were to remain in Malta. Any "discoveries" would hve been the property og the Govt of Malta. Our religious beliefs in the matter of the dead are different from Christianity. We have been trying before the creation of Heritage Malta to have this cemetery restored and the graves found VANDALISED restored. We were ignored for a number of years.When the imminet rabbis who have several years experience in restoring Jewish cemeteries/catacombs came into the scene things started budging. If we don't take care of our own who will? Just a 100 or so metres away there is another disacration behind the Roman Villa. Maybe the pro-Arab contributers will go there and start something similar like ours with the Muslim bones?Who knows?
G.De Bono
Jan 11th 2010, 18:02
@Raymond Sammut I am sure you read the bit where I said you can catalogue any historic Christian bones you like - I do not mind it (even if I find these belong to my great X 400 years father). Please don't take this as being Christian vs Jewish, I think you are over doing it. You are making it sound like these learned people are going to play with bones. What is your point or insinuations? Who said early christian tombs have not been subjected to similar archelogical appreciation?? This is not desrespect of OUR (all Malta not a Jewish monopoly!!!) ancestors (or at least it is in your mind but not every ones, like not in every Jew's like not every Christian for early Christian tombs). Jewish people do not have a God given right over this cemetary as much as an creed has over the Adolorata one. Being bullish about it isn't going to win sympathy over. What next? Send (another) motorbiked-couple of Mossad agents to intimidate Heritage Malta? What is the point of escalating this to relgious purposes - when the scope is scientific? Religions divide people, science does not.
ray sacco
Jan 11th 2010, 17:31
@l.attard bezzina: it is so pathetic that you and your friends are making so much fuss over bones of people you don't even know while at the same time you condone the killing of living flesh and blood humans in palestine, who after all are your brothers.
Greg Mckinley
Jan 11th 2010, 17:29
I really don't understand what Israel has to do with this discussion. This is a human rights and religious freedom issue. No group, race ethnicity and yes religious's heritage should be subjected to the mistreatment of their dead. Imagine if the dead were your great grandparents, surely each of us would be up in arms. Burial plots are the ownership of the dead not some government agency to catalog. Kudos to the American Senators for shedding light on this issue when no Malta or other European politician is willing to see and speak up the value in preserving the dead. I hope the Malta Jewish community is successful in their valiant efforts.
Raymond Sammut
Jan 11th 2010, 17:06
@ G.De Bono Why it is "beyond religion"? It has everything to do with religion. The people who were buried here were not pagans like those across the road -- the Roman catacombs. This is a religious site, Mr De Bono. Just because Roman Catholics are not buried in this cemetery does not mean we keep religion out of it. Religion is the very reason why this is a very sensitive site, and should therefore be treated as such. Forget about "potential". There is no archeology here. This is a simple cemetery about which everything is already known. It belonged to Maltese people who were expelled from Malta because they could not betray their religious beliefs when the Roman Catholics of Spain and their Holy Inquisition arrived on Malta in the 15th century. Dr Gonzi and his Heritage lot know all about this, but they stay mum and keep carrying on with their tagged plastic bags. And I still challenge Dr Gonzi to get Heritage Malta to start exhuming private Catholic tombs of prelates on Malta, whether there are relatives or not, for archeological purposes so we can all see what the reaction will be.
G.De Bono
Jan 11th 2010, 16:10
Raymond Sammut
I did not intend it in the way you read it.
I mean't it (potenitally) has archeological (value) as much as other tombs found.
As regards meddling about with recent burials, especially when family members are still alive, I think that yes would cause an issue (irrispective of what creed they are) -
Again - why bring Christianity / Religion into it - this is beyond religion. Dan mhux qed jsir b'capricc jew ghal gost u pjacir.
Raymond Sammut
Jan 11th 2010, 15:36
@ G. De Bono -- "Realistically this is an archeological site as much as other tombs found." This site was not "found", Mr De Bono. This site is a cemetery, and has been there for all to see all along. I walked past this cemetery four times a day when I attended the Rabat primary school.
Heritage Malta can just as well go and exhume cemeteries on Malta with private tombs in them belonging to Catholic priests and bishops and members of Catholic noble families. Then we will quickly find out who are really the "fanatics" on Malta. Heritage Malta and PM Gonzi had better leave this place alone, or lots of people, myself included, are going to keep getting more and more upset.
Raymond Sammut
Jan 11th 2010, 13:05
@ Martin Cassar
The Turks will not be asking for anything. They never lived on Malta as a community, and have no attachment to the land. Jews lived on Malta even as back as 5,000 years. They lived on Malta until the 15th century, when they were forced to leave or convert to Catholicism, along with Muslims and the early Christians. This place is not an archeological site. It is a cemetery, except that it is not a Catholic cemetery. It could have been Protest, or Coptic, same thing, and should be treated as such by the Maltese authorities.
Lina Caruana
Jan 11th 2010, 12:54
it is amazing how there are individuals who would do anything to pick up a fight with anyone for nothing . What is found in Malta is as much our past as the people who were here. They could also be our ancestors. There is absolutely no issue whether these are handled with respect . Of course they will .They are our past .The governement has also funded the restoration of the jewish cemetry. Why do you do such harm to the image of historic research when we have still so much to discover. This is absolutely incomprehensible.
G. De Bono
Jan 11th 2010, 12:30
Ian Ellu
Re> you'll feel the same should Cultural Heritage and Heritage Malta decide to exhume your loved ones!
I am fairly certain that not one out of the Jewish people in Malta has any recollection of or can connect with any of the bones found. Realistically this is an archeological site as much as other tombs found.
The issue is being foamed up only because there is religiousness (fanatics) being brought into the picture. The Jews care about the bones found as much as they care of the cavemen bones found in any site - the reason this is being blown out of proportion is only to make a scene.
You can catalogue any (archeological important) bones you want from christian cemeteries - I have no problem with that - Loved ones are not there - but one with God.
The less you guys bring Christians/Jewish/Muslims..etc.. into the picture the more rational you might be. People who think that Heritage Malta is some kind of satanic sect intent on desicrating tombs is probably being way hysterical.
I have not brought Israel into the picture - Israel though, brought Malta in the picture on this issue (childish really).
ray sacco
Jan 11th 2010, 12:25
@l.attard bezzina:
"muslims cannot relinquish land they once held". "jews were in malta a long time before the arabs". obviously, you believe that the occupied land of palestine belongs to izrael because the bible says so! wake up mr.attard bezzina. just imagine if we all go back to biblical era frontiers! history is there for us to learn from and for many other reasons, but certainly not to breathe it! we're living in 2010. if you don't like it buy a time machine!
Ian Ellul
Jan 11th 2010, 11:25
It is a disgrace the way Cultural Heritage and Heritage Malta have mishandled the issue. Not a very great advert for Malta, now is it! The gov ought to ensure the matter is concluded satisfactorily with the Jewish community in Malta immediately. To those contributors who have latched on the issue to vent their spleen on Israel, what can one say! I hope you'll feel the same should Cultural Heritage and Heritage Malta decide to exhume your loved ones!
Ian Ellul
Jan 11th 2010, 10:25
Prime Minister Gonzi would do well to call off this reprehensible saga by Cultural Heritage and Heritage Malta who have handled the issue with complete unprofessionalism, disregard and insensitivity to what is sacred to others. This was a well known burial ground, not a freshly found never known before discovery which needs investigation. Who knows what Lawrence Gonzi would have done if Cultural Heritage and Heritage Malta decided to exhume his uncle for cataloguing! Would anyone in Malta say its OK to exhume clergy and knights from St John's Cathedral which is after all an archaeological site of historic importance to catalogue the bones? Don't think so!
Martin Cassar
Jan 11th 2010, 08:50
What do we expect next?
The Turk come over asking for their Turkish ………?
It’s crystal clear when Israeli government cornered (as they are currently accused with committing war crimes and pogroms in Gaza and most of the Israeli’ government members would possibly be WANTED for trial) they create sub-issues to blackmail others and deflect attention.
I make myself clear please; the Jews and the Zionists aren’t the same. The latter are the real danger for the Good Jews and international security.
The point is that Dr. Gonzi is not Mouse but the Jews are the same. Never change!
The times of Malta reports the latest of the Zionists crimes:
Israel razes Palestinian structures in West Bank
http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20100110/world-news/israel-razes-palestinian-structures-in-west-bank
Antoine Vella
Jan 11th 2010, 07:44
I must say I did not expect much better from the usual commentators of this site: the usual mish-mash of xenophobia and misinformation that always crops up when black people or Jews are involved.
I’m quite sure that very few of those attacking the Jewish community care about the bones or about the research being carried out – all they want is to vent their anti-semitism. Yet again.
And they have the gall to be offended when we call them racist.
Charles Grixti
Jan 11th 2010, 05:26
I agree with Lorenzo Trevor Mizzi. Many a time I went to our Catholic village cemetery to see human bones strewn about!
I think that this is a great disrespect to the dead. Whatever the faith, once a person has died; he or she should be returned back to the earth and not dug up again after a few year or their bones left out for people to gawk at.
I agree with the Jews, the dead should be buried and not disturbed. Maybe it is that Jewish DNA running in my blood that some blogger here have mentioned that make me abhor this ‘corpses for show’ that seems to be so popular with the local Catholic Church – grinning sculls in altars, holy bones as relics – creepy and macabre and a total disrespect for the dead.
Emma Xerri
Jan 11th 2010, 05:13
I bet if this was a "Muslim" request and so not to offend the Islamic faith, the Maltese Government would have been bending over backwards to appease and comply with the their request. But these happen to be Jewish bones and that changes everything.
It is pathetic that for over a year the Government still has not buried these bones as is required by the Jewish faith. A very bad show indeed, especially when this is happening in the land of the crypto-Jews themselves - Malta. Conversos anyone?
Sam Weiss
Jan 11th 2010, 04:28
Its a shame that the Maltese Goverment doesn't respect these graves. Our most valued aspect is our rich tradition. Those corpses framed our historic and traditional region. By disturbing their remains, we destory our tradition. Let them rest in peace. We have to show respect towards them, or, otherwise belittle our values.
Raymond Sammut
Jan 11th 2010, 03:25
This issue, I recall, was brought up in The Times some months ago. I would have thought it would have been resolved since then. What Mr Attard Bezzina is revealing about the Maltese authorities presently is upsetting. To my mind, this site is not heritage more than the local cemetery. People buried here had their origins as early settlers who date back to the Phoenicians, and lived peacefully side by side with the early Christians and Muslims later for several centuries. They had brought with them crafts such as glass making and pottery. I recall a pottery place next to the Rabat boys Primary school. I don't know whether it would still be there. And nothing needs to be said about Mdina Glass. These crafts had been there all along.
People buried here were Maltese people like us. The notion of Jewish slaves prior to 1530 is erroneous. Even under the Order, Jewish slaves according to Wettinger numbered only a few, and like other slaves (mostly Muslims), they were not connected with land.
@ Edric Micallef Figallo --Laws are there to protect people's dignity. What they seem to be doing here is wrap bones in plastic bags.
L.Azzopardi
Jan 11th 2010, 01:59
@L. Attard Bezzina
Yes my surname is jewish, my ancerstors saw the light, thankfully.
I have no problem if this was instigated (which it is quite obvious it was) by the local Jewish community. It's a free country. However, please note (and I dont know if this was a mistake) I was not the one who wrote about the slave theory.
About bones being put in bags, I think religiousness is making this hysterical now. Probably bones need to be put in bags to be as a whole rather than scattered around. I dont know, I am not the expert, and suspect neighter is the Jewish community - you are putting too much emphases on the Religious side of it. Bringing experts from abroad is tantamount you guys not trusting the local ones. I agree with you (if your religion is strict) to monitor the situation 24/7 is needs be, but fanaticisim should be left out of this. What's next, finding caveman or a Rex bones and make a whole scene like the picture shows.
It is quite clear that there is no deliberate disrespect of the dead people beyond the handling for genuine archeological purposes
Joseph Ellis
Jan 11th 2010, 01:02
@ Lawrence Attard Bezzina.
I am afraid that you are misleading the readers when you say that Israeli Arabs have the same rights as Israeli Jews in Israel. Israeli Arabs are systematically discriminated against and the party of the current foreign minister has proposed legislation to strip them of their citizenship.
And weren't most Palestinians forcefully expelled from Israel after the partition in 1948 ? These Palestinians should have been allowed to return to their homes when Israel was admitted to the U.N. but Israel quite typically ignored its international commitments and does so to this very day.
Israel is becoming an increasingly religious state and the secular ideals of its founders have long been forgotten. Its army is increasingly under the influence of the military rabbinate which inculcates in soldiers the idea that they are waging a holy war.
Joseph Ellis
Jan 11th 2010, 00:45
@ Lawrence Attard Bezzina.
For your information, I am a Gozitan and do not have any Jewish blood. However, I know of Jews who have taken a very clear stand against the war crimes committed by the Israeli army in Gaza a year ago. One of them is a South African barrister by the name of Richard Goldstone who came out with a damning report on these war crimes.
It's all very convenient for you to stay put on these war crimes and the inhuman treatment meted by the Isreali government to Gazans.
Of course, the Ultra-orthodox protest against the Israeli government. As with all religious extremists, they are utterly irrational. They spend their time studying the Torah, refuse military service and expect that everyone and everything should grind to a halt on the Sabbath. So what ? Does this justify their stance on the Rabat bones ? Hardly.
Instead of being cowed by American congressmen who are out to appease their constituents, our government should work within the EU to penalize Israel for its war crimes in Gaza and for its intransigence in reaching an overall peace settlement.
Edric Micallef Figallo
Jan 10th 2010, 22:46
Whatever Maltese laws apply should be applied and that's what Maltese authorities should be concerned about.
L Attard Bezzina
Jan 10th 2010, 22:29
@ l azzopardi your surname is also jewish by the way it means a jew from spain (sefarad)The community didnt instigate Or have a hand in these demostrations. Hypotetically and if we had so what? Or have you forgotten the immediate past? They did it all by themselves. Let those that take decisions that trample upon other's rights face the music. Unfortunately these HM people are using the might is righr tactic with us. So what's there to be scared of criticism? Childish, I agree 100 pc. But the haughtiness encountered is mind boggling. Contrary to th "new" slave theory exposed hereunder Jews were in Malta a long time before the Arabs ever set foot here. The only time Jews were kept as slaves was at the time of the Knights. So if you dont know ur history keep quite pls. To the Arab Holy land theory, since Malta was also under Islam and Muslims cannot relinquish land they once held according to their belief . I ask you r sacco etc when are you or "they" going to claim Malta. please let me know so Ican get out as I don'T relish living under Sharia law.
Trevor Lorenzo Mizzi
Jan 10th 2010, 22:24
A good 60 % of maltese have jewish ancestors.
I remember visiting the village cemetery in Malta in the early 1960s and seeing piles of grave/tomb dirt with human bones in them like ribs and spinal bones from children etc.
These piles of grave dirt where to be seen at every early November cemetery visitation, so it was not a one time thing.
Even if all these bones belonged to adherents to the roman church,
seeing all this, these ultra-orthodox protesting jews would have had a fit if they knew the jewish-maltese genetic link.
L Attard Bezzina
Jan 10th 2010, 22:04
@ martinelli, yes I did use my influence to calm things down for over a year. We have already spent over euro40,000 on this issue bringing over Archeologists and other experts over to Malta and the Jewish communities from overseas promised to chip in and after the re-internment to make this site one of the best in the world. Both Heritage Malta and the Maltese government are aware of these offers. We don't just talk we act. Maybe our unity brings us so much hatred. We have reliable information and fotos that a lot of bones have been "mocked" bundled in plastic bags and removed from the site. This goes against the agreement reached and against Jewish religous law we adhere too. This is what is bringing about these protests world wide. Communities from as far as the USA, Argentina,Australia and Canada the Czech republic, Poland, the UK, Russia to name just a few are aware of the way our minority have been treated by HM and not the Govt. All our (Maltese Jewish citizens) supplications have been ignored, but
still we patiently wait for a suitable solution. HM keep ignoring us as if we were dirt.
joseph cachia
Jan 10th 2010, 21:35
@SIMON SALIBA
Please don't come wih such nonsence. A Palestinian throw a hand made devise to two
izreali's'
A week before Izrael / american AIRFORCE POWER shot and murdered 140 palestinians families in GAZA
You esecute my family, steal my land. What you expect !
Marg Tabone. IL MALTIN RAZZISTI. "IVA, MIJA FIL MIJA.
Int jew qed tohlom inkella harablek l-arlogg. Dan huwa ghadam tal lhud . F' A.D. 870 gabuhom L-ARAB slavi taghhom.
Qatt f'miljun sena ma kien hemm lhud MALTIN.
Izrael jidhol fis suggett, ghax dawn b'wiccom moghotti marru jipprotestaw l-ambaxxata MALTIJA f'izrael.
ray sacco
Jan 10th 2010, 21:31
TO THE IZRAELI GOVERNMENT !
PLEASE LET OUR HOLY LAND
IN THE OCCUPIED PALESTINE
REST IN PEACE !
THEY ARE NOT RESEARCH MATERIAL.
L.Azzopardi
Jan 10th 2010, 21:22
@L.Attard Bezzina
I can only speak for myself - I would let bones be measured or whatever of my ancestors if such was for scientific / documentation purposes.
I do not understand the protests in other countries around Malta - I am sure they were instigated by the local Jewish community (not necessarily you) and personally I think this whole issue is a bit childish.
Had the case been that these bones were gone to be mocked about, I, a non-Jewish person, would be the first to protest about it, but I have full confidence in Heritage Malta and their professionalisim.
The issues should never be a religious one, irrispective if the bones are of Muslims, Christians, Agnostics, Ethiests or Jews. The point is about documenting bones of ancestors (who for all we know, their off-spring could have also long migrated and their blood line terminated, imma nsomma dik besides the point as well)
L. Attard bezzina
Jan 10th 2010, 21:20
@ joseph ellis, I shall refrain from commenting on your attack against Israel and Mr Towns since the subject of the article is something else. But for your information the ultra-Orthodox also demostrate against the Israeli government. And by the way both Joseph your name and also Ellis your family name are of "Jewish" origin. So keep your shirt on as you might probably have jewish blood and dna in your system! Ta Ta
J Martinelli
Jan 10th 2010, 21:15
"The representative of the Jewish community in Malta, Lawrence Attard Bezzina, said: "I had warned government the issue was going to come to this".
This statement leads me to believe that Mr. Lawrence Attard Bezzina may have used his influence to inform other Jewish communities of the situation in Rabat. It is not clear to me what the fuss is all about. Heritage Malta is documenting the finds which apparently came as a result of these remains becoming exposed due to erosion and weather related events. It is doing nothing wrong. If these bones were being taken away and disrespected in any way, I would agree that it should be stopped immediately, but certainly it is not the case nor the intent.
Instead of parading around with placards, why didn't these people in Tel-Aviv and Washington come up with some funds, followed by a design of whatever structure conforms to their rites and seek the government's permission for proper interment? Surely some type of arrangement could be reached for the satisfaction of all.
Raymond Sammut
Jan 10th 2010, 20:44
When I was a small boy, some of the other children were afraid to go near this place at night. Ask the locals if this is true. A tale used to be told about some cat that roamed inside, and it would talk to you if you went near it. I never believed the story, and I was not afraid to go near this place -- day or night. I always looked at this place with curiosity, and often wondered why it was left neglected. Now they want to measure and document every bone.
Joseph Micallef
Jan 10th 2010, 20:39
@L. Galea - Jews does not necessarily mean Israelis. So mixing the issue with what Israel is doing to the Palestinians is incorrect to say the least.
Joseph Ellis
Jan 10th 2010, 20:34
I suggest that Congressman Towns puts his energy in ensuring that Israel will not continue stealing Arab land and build illegal settlements. He may also use his wherewithal to ensure that the Gaza does not remain the world's biggest open air prison and the Gazans get adequate access to the outside world, thus, enhancing their precarious economic well-being.
I would also be keen to learn about his stand on the use of phosphorous bombs against civilians by Israel in last year's Operation Cast Lead. As has been widely documented, the indiscriminate use of phosphorous bombs has reduced much Palestinian flesh to bones similar to those in the Rabat catacombs. It would be too much to expect these ultra-orthodox Jews to protest against these crimes against humanity but Mr Towns and the other unnamed senators should know better.
I have tried to communicate directly with Mr Towns butt he only accepts communications from his constituents. I would also have liked to tell him that increasingly, the world is getting tired of the blanket U.S. support to an Israeli regime which has no genuine intent to reach a comprehensive peace settlement.
carmel mifsud
Jan 10th 2010, 20:29
Well done to the reps of Jewish communities and thanks goes to the govt decision to open an Embassy in Tel Aviv. Li tisra tahsad.
L Attard Bezzina
Jan 10th 2010, 20:27
@m cassar - israeli arabs and israeli citizens, since you want to keep harping against Israel, have the same legal rights as Jews. Why dont you keep to the subject. Should these bones be buried in their cemetery the catacombs? Would you let the bones of these ancestors of yours (since they are Maltese) who had a different belief than yours be buried yes or no? Or should their remains became toys?
Raymond Sammut
Jan 10th 2010, 20:21
@ Martin Cassar
A person is considered to be a Jew if the mother is Jewish. This is not very different from Maltese law. Under current legislation, a person can claim Maltese citizenship if one of the parents is Maltese.
Another point. 10% of Israel's population are Arab-Israelis, and they have the same rights as Jews. It is not clear what you mean by "full-fledged citizen of Israel".
L. Attard Bezziba
Jan 10th 2010, 20:17
@ c farrugia & all. I have nothing to do with these demostrations. Nor as far as i know do members of the Maltese Jewish community. But there seems to be something very wrong with the insular mentality of most of the contributers who keep mixing things up. What's wrong with these demostrations? Maybe these armchair critics should get of their backside and do a similar demostration against the atrocities being done against felliw Christians, like in Pakistan, Malasia etc. The main question of this article, which by the way, condenses a 10 minute conversation,which was not said in the context it appears, is that for decades nothing was done at the catacombs in question and whar is being done now is unacceptable under Jewish religous law. We the Jewish community in Malta, made up of Maltese citizens, have been trying to find a solution for over a year. Which solution respects the dignity of the human remains found there, the religous sensitivity of our belief and Maltese legislation. This is no mean task. I should know because i have been involved nearly from the start. I am only responsible for my deeds. So now when's the pogrom?
Martin Cassar
Jan 10th 2010, 20:00
@ C. Farrugia (29 minutes ago)
'Maltese are Maltese, and to my mind there are no Maltese Roman Catholics, or Maltese Jews, or Maltese Muslims -- just Maltese.'
I fully agree with you, however in the case of ‘democratic’ Israel the case is quite off-human rights and logic. In order to be a full-fledged citizen of Israel you must be a Jew. Sounds weird isn’t it?
C. Farrugia
Jan 10th 2010, 19:36
As regards to the posters in the picture. One says "DEFILING OUR HOLY PLACES". Well these are not their holy places these are Maltese holy places -- they belong to Maltese people of the Jewish religion, but Maltese they remain -- so it is up to our representatives to decide what to do and no foreigner living in the USA or Israel have any right to decide otherwise. Another poster says "....OUR ANSCESTORS...." Well I cannot see any kind of relationship with present jews living in Israel, or American Citizens of the Jewish religon living in Washington. They are more the anscestors of us Maltese than anybody living in present day Washington or Israel.
P Agius
Jan 10th 2010, 19:22
@ L Attard Bezzina
I dont distinguish between a Jew, a Christian and a Muslim when it comes to human and dead rights etc etc so don't try and portray me as an anti-semite... Ofcourse it bugs me to see bones scattered all over the place ( irrespective of their beleifs) ....I am sure Heritage Malta is doing its utmost to saveguard Malta's heritage and dignify it. Like most arcehological and historical sites around Malta we lag behind . Christian burial sites like the Jewish ones were neglated for decades and heritage Malta is now doing something (finally).
The reading on one of the placards " THEY ARE NOT RESEARCH METIRIAL " is not acceptable and VERY MISLEADING.
C. Farrugia
Jan 10th 2010, 19:15
Maltese are Maltese, and to my mind there are no Maltese Roman Catholics, or Maltese Jews, or Maltese Muslims -- just Maltese. Whatever is buried in Malta belongs to the people of Malta represented politically by the Maltese Government, and culturally by Heritage Malta. To my mind not matter the fuss made by foreigners or Maltese who prefer representing foreign people, and take the side of foreign people should have any say in the matter. Malta is for the Maltese, no matter their religion. Maltese do nor tell the Israelis what to do in Israel, and in the same manner Israelis have no right to tell us what to do in Malta.
L.Attard Bezzina
Jan 10th 2010, 18:44
Why all this bullying and demonising against the Jewish community and their brethren be they ultra-orthodox or Israel? The skeletal remains belong to Maltese Jews and they will eventually be buried in Malta. If anyone wants to pay me a holiday to the USA he's welcome. As to the usual pro-Arab ultra leftist moaners like lgalea & j cachia no one bothers with answering you anymore.Martin Cassar rememberthat Jesus his apostles and their families were also Jews. re ur joke that's exactly what Heritage Malta wants to do, charge money out of Jewish bones! After the expulsion of Jews and Arabs there property was stolen and taken over by the the rich and the church. No they aren't hiding they are demostrating peacefully in a DEMOCRATIC country. Do you see such demostrations in Arab countries j cachia? P Agius the bones will stay in Malta where they were found inside the Jewish catacombs which were desecrated and left in that sorry state for decades. Doesn't that bug you? Or since they are "Jewish" it doesn't matter? Unlike some of you we have no political agenda all we want it for this protracted issue to be settled.
Raymond Sammut
Jan 10th 2010, 17:17
I remember this place from my childhood, when I lived in the vicinity. Unlike the Roman Catacombs across the road, this is surely a burial place which had been left untouched for centuries -- probably since the expulsion of Jews and Muslims when Malta became a Spanish dependency. Maltese Muslims would not have left behind similar places since, according to Islam, the deceased are buried in unmarked graves.
Given this is a burial place, then why the Maltese authorities want to measure and document every bone? Would they do the same with bones in other burial places, such as those belonging to the British and Australian services, for example? It clearly doesn't make sense. The Maltese authorities should leave this place alone until a proper approach is first worked out.
What I find astonishing is the fact that outside pressure is coming from the US. I would expect, instead, that consultation would take place between the Maltese and Israeli governments. What one would want to see is cooperation between these two governments in working out a restoration plan and providing funds for restoration works.
In the meantime, US senators should learn how to mind their own business.
Martin Cassar
Jan 10th 2010, 16:46
‘"We do not want to embarrass the government. We are not happy with this pressure especially at a time when the government has a recession to concentrate on.’
Is this a blackmailing?
This goes to reflect the never changed Israeli mentality!
Sandro Bugeja
Jan 10th 2010, 16:32
Why are all the protesters hiding from the camera?
lgalea
Jan 10th 2010, 16:29
margaret tabone
Fejn dahlet ix-xenofobija u r-razzizmu margaret?
X'ghandu x'jaqsam l-Israel?
Mela ma qrajtux l-artiklu margaret?
Dawk il-Lhud ultra-ortodossi anki f'Israel stess jaqilghu problemi kbar.
Mela ma tafx x'qed jaghmel l-Israel fil-Lvant Nofsani?
Mela m'intix f'dinja?
P Agius
Jan 10th 2010, 16:24
Jewish yet Maltese! ........I just cannot comprehend why orthodox jews in Israel want the bones of Maltese simply because they are jewish.....Why should they bother on 2,000 year old bones (which i understand that the Maltese Authorities are treating with respect) when living palestanians are living in a quasi helland treated like crap.
Harry Wilkins Baluci Maltese/Aussi
Jan 10th 2010, 16:08
These people are always looking for more problems to dig up.. i'm a RC and my motto is give it a rest, just look at the picture, doesn't make you want to throw up? Whats on Maltese soil is the government's property and nobody elses. Period.
margaret tabone
Jan 10th 2010, 15:51
kapaci tibqu mas-suggett? kieku kien cimiterju kattoliku x'teghdu? mela l-Malti razzist, tridx tmur? dan l-ghadam kienu hawn (maltin) qabilna, l-izrael x'ghandu x'jaqsam ma din il-kwistjoni. ppruvaw tkunx xenofobici !
joseph cachia
Jan 10th 2010, 15:45
The few jewish bones found in Rabat catacombs are from slaves jews to their ARAB masters during A.D.870.
Then one hope MALTA AUTHORITIES conclusion will be to call Mr Attard Bezzina to carry them to Edo;lphus Ed Towns .
simon saliba
Jan 10th 2010, 15:26
@Charles Sammut.
Please hit the following link. Probably you find an answer to your questions.
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/12/2009122174731136137.html
Christian Sciberras
Jan 10th 2010, 15:23
John Portelli - However it isn't their property. Under constitution, the government is required to look into research of the ancestors.
I'm a human, does it give me any right to bones/articles just because of this?
The bones are on the Maltese grounds, owned by the Government Of Malta and it's citizens.
As a citizen and a scientific-minded individual, like many other Maltese, I demand that this matter is dealt with accordingly and cataloged as best as possible, without regards to external influence.
Jews, from all people, ought to know "Ashes to ashes", as such, keeping this material private is A CRIMINAL OFFENSE ON MANKIND.
John Portelli
Jan 10th 2010, 13:59
The jews should take their bones to Israel and keep their there if it's that important to them.
lgalea
Jan 10th 2010, 13:37
To the ultra-orthodox Jews, what proof do they have that the bones at the Rabat catacombs are Jewish?
Charles Sammut
Jan 10th 2010, 11:54
Where were these gentlemen when Israel rained white phosphorus grenades on LIVE Palestinians last year? Aren't live people more valuable than centuries old bones? Or are they?
Now, wait for it, they will be labeling us anti-semitic next if we do not comply with their requests. Of course any human remains should be treated with the utmost respect and I think that documenting and researching the origins and circumstances of such remains is the greatest respect that one can give them.
This incident reminds me of an official protest by 2 jewish women over the use of the word "jew" on a notice on Ta' Pinu church door. They did not bother to check that "jew" means "or" in Maltese and filed official complaints with their embassy. How paranoid.