Display of crucifixes in public institutions

Joseph Meli

Dec 3rd 2009, 15:29

@Charles Sammut:But it seems that you have missed the first part of this section and section 40(1) it clearly says.......that "All persons in Malta shall have full freedom of conscience and enjoy the free exercise of their respective mode of religious worship"

Therefore, with this section our constitution is not imposing anyone not to profess any other religion. But the majority in Malta are still RC. This is also referred to as the protection of freedom of conscience and worship.

Raymond Sammut

Dec 2nd 2009, 18:32

@ Joseph Meli

From what I can find, nowhere in Malta's Constitution separation of State and Church is stated explicitly. In fact, explicit mention of separation is rarely, if ever, made. It is nevertheless a generally accepted concept which secular governments are expected to uphold.

In regard to Malta's Constitution, Article 40(2) makes it clear that the State is at fault where a child under 16 is exposed to religious teachings to which the parent objects. My understanding is, that provided there exist no objections from parents, the State can continue to put the crucifix in the classroom.

It should be clear here that by putting the crucifix in the classroom, the Maltese government is not adhering to the concept of separation. By not adhering, and in accordance with Article 40(2), the Maltese government is placing itself (or more precisely the tax-payer) at risk.

Irrespective of these technicalities, my opposition to the crucifix in the classroom (and in public places in general) stems from the fact that the crucifix is a very important representation (and which is not exclusive to the Catholic religion) and should not be liberally used by the State for its own purposes.

Joseph Meli

Dec 2nd 2009, 15:34

As I said before, I will..repeat and clarify..as someone has not as yet taken up my point. In our constitution this covers as far as religion and state. In section 40 (1) it clearly says that "All persons in Malta shall have full freedom of conscience and enjoy the free exercise of their respective mode of religious worship" The Constitution talks about the state and religion, nothing wrong.

Therefore, with this section our constitution is not imposing anyone not to profess any other religion or nothing at all. But the majority in Malta are still RC. This is also referred to as the protection of freedom of conscience and worship. If you don't have the Christian faith, you can still have any other faith or if you might be a non-believer, you are still FREE.

However, due that our..Constitution declares what our official religion is, which is the Roman Catholic faith, then if anyone puts such a case with the European Court [ECHR], their decision cannot goes against our..constitution, because it is first and foremost declared not like other countries and then our..Constitution also gives the full freedom of other religions or none-believers too who live in Malta.

Joseph Meli

Dec 2nd 2009, 14:56

Raymond Sammut: You stated "government must ensure separation of State and Church." But you have still not stated from which section you have or are referring to? Make things clear? When I made my point I mentioned the sections. Please clarify?

Raymond Sammut

Dec 2nd 2009, 13:11

jane -- well said. I cannot agree more.

jane camilleri haber

Dec 2nd 2009, 11:10

@ raymond sammut - I am stating that the catholic faith in our country has nourished the best atmosphere for democracy to take root and flourish unobstructed. the figure of Jesus on the Cross is what we catholics profess as the Author of our religion the cornerstone of our faith:but for non christians He stands as a representative of the oppresed, the victims of intollerance and the innocently condemned because of a culture of violence and restriction of the liberty of speech and actions. Jesus died because of the intollerance of others. you see He stands for all of us in one way or another. but maybe what is most relevant to those who oppose His presence He stands as an everlasting presence cautioning us of the threat of intollerance and suppression highly spread in many foreign countires where His Salvation ( what we catholics profess) has yet to dawn

Raymond Sammut

Dec 2nd 2009, 10:15

jane camilleri haber -- "...the crucifix is your very sign of freedom and democracy, the very protection of your constitutional rights!" Ms Camilleri Haber, please be reminded that the crucifix is a representation of the figure of Jesus Christ on the cross. Are you suggesting that Jesus Christ died on the cross for "democracy" -- for a system of government elected by the eligible members of the State?

Theresa Calleja

Dec 2nd 2009, 09:51

"It is of fundamental importance to maintain your own traditions, and Italy has a Christian and Catholic background. Therefore, to keep the tradition of the crucifix in the schools is extremely important," the Dalai Lama told a media conference at Italy's Chamber of Deputies Wednesday., 17th November... ergo it is an absolute minority that is intolerant of other's religious beliefs, these should learn to respect others, as well as their country's Constitution... In India would you insist on eating beef? In any Arab country would you sport hot pants? Tolerance, Freedom & Respect do not imply the right to silence others...

jane camilleri haber

Dec 2nd 2009, 09:45

the crucifix should remain there, not only because we have it explained in the constitution that malta is christian but also, and maybe more importantly, because the crucifix is the prime sign of the religion which has shaped our culture, a culture allowing anyone ( irrespective of what religion he professes) to express himself without being stoned to death or arrested indefentely without explanation as happens in other countries whose culture was shaped by other faiths or no faith at all. why don't those who would remove the crucifix see this side of the issue? the crucifix is your very sign of freedom and democracy, the very protection of your constitutional rights! remove it and start diluting the outer signs of your democracy . by time ( and not so long) other cultural influences which may not exactly be the ones you would like yourselves to to have to bear ( and all of us with you) will put up their signs ....to stay..... meditate gente meditate

Raymond Sammut

Dec 2nd 2009, 09:43

@ Dave Alan Caruana--Whether Malta's Constitution requires amendments would need professional advice. Malta's Constitution, in its current form, was authored by the late Sir Anthony Mamo. He practically dedicated much of his professional life to this end. It is doubtful whether any significant amendments would be required. The nation's constitution is the blueprint that provides the basis for laws passed through parliament. But to me it seems that parliamentarians in Malta are more interested in their party politics and the interests of their allies. They are little concerned about complying with the word and spirit of this blueprint in the interest of the tax-payer and the citizen in general. The day-to-day exhibit of the crucifix (a religious representation) in the classroom (a public space owned by the State) is a flagrant violation of what Sir Anthony Mamo stipulated. But it was never up to him to comply. Compliance is the realm of parliamentarians, and it's up to the Maltese public to ensure that their parliamentarians comply.

@ Joseph Meli--The fact that the Roman Catholic religion is the official religion in Malta does not mean that the Maltese government can put religious representations in spaces owned by the State.

Dave Alan Caruana

Dec 2nd 2009, 03:26

I think it's high time the constitution is amended to safeguard the rights of citizens not interested in religion, and those who follow other religious beliefs.

Raymond Sammut

Dec 1st 2009, 21:25

@ Joseph Meli

Malta's Constitution makes it clear that the incumbent government must ensure separation of State and Church. The crucifix is a religious representation, and its presence in the classroom of a state school is therefore clearly in violation of the Constitution. No need for anyone to be pedantic on the exact clause. The fact that Malta's Constitution requires separation of State and Church is universally acknowledged. To me it is clear that not enough people in Malta are conscious of this fact.

Joseph Meli

Dec 1st 2009, 20:13

@Raymond Sammut: You stated "each classroom in a state school must be free from all religious representations under the relevant Constitutional clause."

I do not agree with you as this is not in our constitution as you said. Kindly could you inform us in which clause or section you are referring to?

Joseph Meli

Dec 1st 2009, 19:45

@Charles Sammut: You stated that "the Constitution discriminates against those who are not Roman Catholic" In my opinion you are totally wrong, because you do not know what our constitution covers as far as religion. Therefore, if you look at Section No 40 (1) it clearly says that "All persons in Malta shall have full freedom of conscience and enjoy the free exercise of their respective mode of religious worship"

Therefore, with this section our constitution is not imposing anyone not to profess any other religion. But the majority in Malta are still RC. This is also referred to as the protection of freedom of conscience and worship.

However, in my opinion (maybe I am wrong) but due that our Constitution declares what our official religion is, that is the Roman Catholic faith, then if anyone put's such a case in the EHRC, their decision cannot goes against our constitution, because it is declared and we give the freedom of other religions in Malta.

Raymond Sammut

Dec 1st 2009, 18:27

@ C.Busuttil

Why should anyone be afraid of the crucifix? I am categorically against putting the crucifix where it does not belong. A public space is not the right place where to put the crucifix. The only right place of the crucifix is a place of religion, namely, a church, a cathedral or a chapel.

Mr Busuttil, are you suggesting that you believe in vampires? Are you suggesting that anybody should use the crucifix to scare or intimidate people who object to the crucifix being put in the classroom by politicians and by public servants? I like to challenge you to give one valid reason why the crucifix should be taken out of the church and be placed in a public place by a politician or a public servant in the defiance to what is specified in Malta's Constitution.

C.Busuttil

Dec 1st 2009, 17:38

@ Charles Sammut

The situation will last much longer than you think.

U jekk x'hadd jipprova naraw il-quddiem ta min tghaddi ta'. Il-Kurcifiss hemm kien hemm ha ghadu hemm ha jibqa u tistaw tmorru ghand l-Unjoni Ewropeja ghand il-qorti u ghand min tridu imma HEMM ha JIBQA. Kemm tibzaw mill-Kurcifiss l-anqas il-vampiri ma jibzaw daqshekk minnu.

GiovDeMartino

Dec 1st 2009, 15:52

imissna nisthu NIDDISKUTU BISS jekk ghandniex inhallu l-Kurcifiss hemm jew le. Imissna nisthu!

Raymond Sammut

Dec 1st 2009, 14:56

"The minister [Dolores Cristina] said in all schools and educational institutions the crucifix was displayed as an integral part of each classroom." But minister Cristina should also have been asked in parliament how this "integral part" does not violate Malta's Constitution which requires exactly the opposite. That is, each classroom in a state school must be free from all religious representations under the relevant Constitutional clause specifying the requirement of separation of State and Church.

Galea. L

Dec 1st 2009, 12:21

Charles Sammut
With due respect that is not discrimination but recognizing the religion of the vast majority of Maltese citizens and their right to express it. The minority cannot impose its will on the majority.

Mario Farrugia

Dec 1st 2009, 12:18

.... and so should it remain...
Malta is Roman Catholic, and anyone who doesn't like this can avail himself/herself of the liberty and right which our democratic country allows... i.e. to leave.

renald williams

Dec 1st 2009, 12:04

may we always consider to display more Christian love - Let all that you do be done in love. 1 Corinthians 16:14. peace and health to all.

Charles Sammut

Dec 1st 2009, 11:40

"on the basis that the Constitution declared that the Roman Catholic religion is the religion of Malta as a state."
In other words, the Constitution discriminates against those who are not Roman Catholic. I don't see this situation lasting much longer. You cannot legislate against discrimination on the basis of religion, race or ethnicity when the highest law of the land so blatantly states that one religion is more equal than others.

Franco Farrugia

Dec 1st 2009, 10:11

In other words, business as usual - and that is how it should be.