Joe C. Cordina, Ħamrun
About the Imam, the crucifix and the friar
Some opinion writers and even a political institution felt outraged by what Imam Mohammed El Saadi said about the Sharia law which is a part of the Koran and practised by some Islamic countries.
I do not wish to go into details, but Mr Saadi is an Imam of the Islamic religion. Nobody expects that in such a position, the Imam would not show that he agrees with the norms as practised within the religion he upholds and of which he is an official. To his credit he also expressed himself against the order of the removal of the crucifix by the European Court. And he was honest enough to speak against wrong activities that tend to disrupt our natural way of doing things.
What people who are Catholic, like the undersigned, and proud of it, do not expect are comments harming our religious sentiments that came from a friar of our own religion, expressed with such vehemence on television programmes and in newspapers. Such remarks as expressed in public to all and sundry do more harm than good. I am not against criticism of the Curia's administrative methods or regulation when it is done in a proper manner but to philosophise on the actual values of the religion itself is very dangerous when it is done in such media as television and newspapers. There are other places and other methods where high-brow people such as this friar can discuss such matters. Indeed scholars of the Church are always coming together to discuss the Church's doctrine so as to keep the Church up to date.
And talking of expectations, one would have expected more fervour in condemning the European Court's edict regarding the removal of the crucifix. One of course can never condone acts of violence even when one feels that one's religion is being insulted as happened in other instances and other countries. But we should show more energy in defending our religious beliefs.
Being tolerant to other people's opinions and religious beliefs does not mean that you embrace them. It also does not mean that you have to apologise for expressing your opinion, of what you believe in and of what you are against. We Maltese profess to be a Catholic community. It is high time that we Catholics stand up for our values and our rights... before it is too late.
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Kenneth Cassar
Dec 6th 2009, 07:59
"If you persist in intruding in our affairs..."
Now that's rich, coming from a Maltese Catholic!
Joe Xuereb
Dec 5th 2009, 18:21
Mr. Saliba, I don't think Kenneth C. needs my protection or anyone else's so I wouldn't intrude in that sense. Besides I am so inconsequential that you always manage to ignore my comments. Which is OK, I am your humble servant. But the point remains, do my comments deserve to be ignored because vacuous or are they too threatening to your peace. I have a of piece of peace. As an atheist, I do not do any of the seven deadly transgressions, least of all greed. I have enough peace to share. Would you like a piece of my peace, doctor? Sellili ghal Kenneth meta tarah. U int poggi rasek fejn is-soltu tqeghdha.
J'Alla l-gid u l-hena, u rizq, u slaleb imwarrba.
Dr Francis Saliba
Dec 4th 2009, 21:09
@Joe Xuereb and protege KennethCassar
If you persist in intruding in our affairs please expect that we will respond - even if scream that you are being hassled.
Joe Xuereb
Dec 4th 2009, 16:32
Dr. F. Saliba. Stop hassling my friend Kenneth Cassar. And stop hassling me. You want peace you say by atheists leaving you in such. Scapegoating. Atheists do not terrorise. They live their lives quietly, in comparative peace. Lack of peace, deprivation of peaceful slumber come from different religions at loggerheads. So, if you want peace, identify your enemy. But peace not guaranteed. Alternatively, as we say in England, 'if you cannot beat them, join them'. The atheists being, of course, out of the running. That would be a bridge too far. Problem solved. Scapegoating ditched. The dove of peace you'd sink your fangs in is not up THIS tree.
Kenneth Cassar
Dec 4th 2009, 08:10
@ Dr Francis Saliba:
"He is recommending its removal from the public life of EVERY ONE in Malta".
The word recommending is not between inverted commas there...and I am quoting you word for word. Also please note that nowhere did I use upper case letters when quoting you, unless you used them yourself.
Now, can you please tell me how "He is recommending its removal from the public life of EVERY ONE in Malta" can be interpreted other than that he is recommending its removal from the public life of everyone in Malta?
Please have the decency to acknowledge that you made a mistake.
Dr Francis Saliba
Dec 3rd 2009, 18:05
@KennethCassar
Please have the decency to acknowledge my use of inverted commas in "recommended" (that I did NOT type in upper case letters!) and to please interpret my use of that word in the context of my numerous other comments. I made it abundantly clear to all unblinkered and unbiased persons that in my opinion Fr Montebello did not himself make the recommendation to remove the crucifix - he only did not protest against that proposal with the vehemence one would expect from a Catholic priest in consonance with the rest of the local clergy.
Kenneth Cassar
Dec 3rd 2009, 10:46
@ Dr Francis Saliba:
You say (and I quote): "Fr Montebello did not "recommend" the removal of the crucifix from public places".
But earlier you said (and I quote): "He is recommending its removal from the public life of EVERY ONE in Malta".
Perhaps you will realise that these two claims are incompatible and contradict each other.
So stop quibling and admit that you made a mistake. Oh, but I forgot...I guess that would give "ammunition to the enemies of the Church".
Dr Francis Saliba
Dec 3rd 2009, 09:46
@Kenneth Cassar
What Fr Mark Montebello RECOMMENDED was that EVERY MALTESE CATHOLIC (not just those who do not practice Christian charity up to his satisfaction) would accept the removal of the crucifix from our public life. Stop quibbling because I will not try to put it to you simpler than that.
Kenneth Cassar
Dec 3rd 2009, 07:13
@ Dr Francis Saliba:
You ask me to be precise when I replied to you and used the word "recommend", and now tell me that Fr Montebello did not "recommend" the removal of the crucifix...
Funny, because I only used the word after you wrote "He is recommending its removal from the public life of EVERY ONE in Malta".
But in your haste to reply, you forgot that it was you who said that Fr Montebello is recommending the removal of crucifixes. So which one is it, dear Dr Saliba? And please be precise.
Joe Xuereb
Dec 2nd 2009, 17:13
The Imam knows very well how to have the Maltese feeding out of his hand. It is called feeding people a sop. Below is the proof if any were needed. Quite understandable but not to those who persist in choosing just ONE salient point out of a number. And even then they get it wrong. Of course our own clerics are not above offering their own, unique brand of Maltese sop to the Muslim community.
As when one stalwart told the muslim here (in Malta) that their leaders can build as many mosques as they deem necessary.
http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20081008/local/immigration-problem-making-maltese-less-tolerant-imam/
http://www.timesofmalta.com/blogs/view/20090509/fr-joe-borg/should-there-be-more-mosques-in-malta
And he did it again. Some people never learn.
http://www.timesofmalta.com/blogs/view/20091130/fr-joe-borg/priests-disagreeing-on-tv
Dr Francis Saliba
Dec 2nd 2009, 16:45
@KennethCassar
Please be precise; Fr Montebello did not "recommend" the removal of the crucifix from public places – he only failed to oppose that removal from the schools where it has always been displayed as emphatically as the church hierarchy and their concerned flock would have wished. This afforded anticipated comfort to those who were actively agitating for the removal of the crucifix. I am convinced that he regrets deeply the way that atheists have embroiled him in their campaign against Christianity and the Holy Crucifix.
N.B. In your haste to reply you missed the all important point that I was congratulating YOU, not me.
Kenneth Cassar
Dec 2nd 2009, 14:30
@ Dr Francis Saliba:
Sophistry: a subtle, tricky, superficially plausible, but generally fallacious method of reasoning.
How was my post tricky when I myself declared that the difference is significant? What is superficially plausible about my statement that the difference is significant? What is fallacious about my statement that the difference is significant?
Don't bother to reply. After all, in your own words, you wouldn't "give ammunition to the enemies of the Church", would you?
Kenneth Cassar
Dec 2nd 2009, 13:34
@ Dr Francis Saliba:
If Fr Montebello truly RECOMMENDS the removal of the crucifix from public schools, I am confident that it is for other reasons than simply because many professed Christians do not live a truly Christian life.
Regarding "spotting my own sophistry", how could that be, considering I immediately pointed out the significant difference myself.
Of course, you may congratulate yourself in your delusion that I "backed out" because I knew you would "point it out to me". After all, if you don't applaud yourself, who will?
Dr Francis Saliba
Dec 2nd 2009, 13:07
@KennethCassar
Good try, but not good enough. The difference is most significant and not at all seemingly slight.
Fr Montebello does not recommend the removal of the crucifix symbol ONLY to those who, according to him, had already removed the crucifix from their heart. He is recommending its removal from the public life of EVERY ONE in Malta and that would include all those who truly treasure the crucifix in their hearts. I take it for granted that Fr. Montebello concedes in all humility that he is not the sole arbiter of who genuinely treasures the crucifix in his heart and that, besides himself, there may be many others.
P.S. Congratulation for spotting your own sophistry and backing out before I could point it out to you.
Joe Xuereb
Dec 2nd 2009, 12:46
Here we go again.
What the Imam said WAS a sop. Like when he claimed months ago that even Jesus was a traveller, an immigrant. That was the biggest sop of all. I could look that up in my archives if people exist and remind them of this. The Imam does sops. I do pills, with no sugar.
Christians have had their say since forever and a day. And they want to be left in peace. Why don't they leave atheists in peace?
Kenneth Cassar
Dec 2nd 2009, 11:41
@ Dr Francis Saliba:
"Do you know of any other way of summing up Fr Montebello's stance regarding his stance about the position taken up by his religious superiors? I do not know of any".
Of course. Here's my own summing up:
Many Christians have so diverged from the message of Christ that, having removed Christ from their hearts, THEY may just as well not object to the removal of the crucifix from schoolroom walls also.
The difference might seem slight (one or two words), but it is significant. Of course, since we both can't be right, I'll let you think that your version is correct, and won't waste any time on something that doesn't concern me the slightest.
Dr Francis Saliba
Dec 2nd 2009, 09:06
@Joe Xuereb
The “suggestion for crucifixes to be taken down from classroom walls” in Italy was made by an atheist from Finland and it was swamped by protests from native Italians from all walks of life and religious conviction. That is a plain statement of fact and not a sop to anyone.
Joe Xuereb
Dec 1st 2009, 22:18
Joe C. Cordina, in a democracy, everybody's view has to be given an airing.
Some, often (maybe even naturally) feel that the majority rules. Maybe. A majority could well have been a minority once upon a time. But it is not only a question of numbers. Quality, as in over quantity, can not be ignored. No doubt the majority of the Maltese are Catholic. They profess catholicism. Many undoubtedly fervently so. Till their last breath (call it conviction). Of the rest there are believers - well, believers always - but with varying degrees of commitment. From tepid, to lukewarm, to sometimes impassioned, to Sundays only, like amateur watercolourists, or Never on Sunday, and naturally, the typical 'quando non posso piu', ritorno dal buon Gesu` kind of Catholic, very numerous these.
In Italy recently, there was some suggestion for crucifixes to be taken down from classroom walls. This being Italy, there was an outcry. Even from those, quite high profiles, whose life is rather less than exemplary. I think I've made my point Joe.
' he also expressed himself against the order of the removal of the crucifix by the European Court.............honest enough to speak'. We call this a sop Joe.
Erin Ciantar
Dec 1st 2009, 21:29
@louise vella
Here we go again!! Change your tune just for once. Do you ever think of anything else apart from immigrants.
This crucifix issue has nothing to do with sharia law. The case was filed by an atheist Finnish woman.
William P Flynn
Dec 1st 2009, 20:23
It's the silly season so anyone can make a wish; especially the ones that are silly all year round, and they think Maltese affairs are religion, religion, religion and Malta is one big Catholic Action Club. Although, one would have expected prayer rather than wishing from a fundamentalist Catholic.
Dr Francis Saliba
Dec 1st 2009, 18:10
@Kenneth Cassar
Do you know of any other way of summing up Fr Montebello's stance regarding his stance about the position taken up by his religious superiors? I do not know of any.
Dr Francis Saliba
Dec 1st 2009, 17:21
I deny ownership of any alien atheists, I do not quote scriptures at them because that is an exercise in futility but I would be eternally grateful if they would leave us alone to mind our own business without their meddling in our own affairs from the antipodes!
renald williams
Dec 1st 2009, 16:22
When the devil misquoted the Bible ad nauseam, the Lord replied back by quoting three times from the same Book! Matthew 4:1-11; Luke 4:1-13. The Lord tells us not to judge spiritually , neither religious nor atheist people, but to learn from their mistakes, mistakes which we also do. There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One... but who are you who judge your neighbor? – James 4:12. wishing peace and health to all!
louise vella
Dec 1st 2009, 15:35
The crucifix is part of Malta's culture. Sharia law is not. The crucifix must stay where it is. We must be very careful Sharia law is not introduced surreptitiously in Malta, as is happening in other European countries.
v zammit
Dec 1st 2009, 14:30
But why be so vehement. Look closely at last Sundays letter by the bishops – one of the same Order as Fr Montebello’s to boot. Rightly the bishops say that the state has to respects all because all are born in it; there is no choice. But within an association, like a church, one chooses to be within a ‘collective conscience’ but not necessari without questions asked. The good bishops say that in the past we were awash with religious symbols but today they’re not so plentiful. It is all par for the course and we move on. Certainly the direction is for an informed choice rather than the ‘road taken’. In this context the ‘outcry’ on the cross takes on a fresh aspect. Perhaps in the bishops’ conciliatory terms. That is the way forward, not ‘vehemence’.
Franco Farrugia
Dec 1st 2009, 13:18
@ Renald Williams: Even the devil can quote the Bible, and ad nauseam, too.
William P Flynn
Dec 1st 2009, 13:02
That's right Renald Williams; quote the scriptures to Francis Saliba's "alien atheists". That'll convince them.
Kenneth Cassar
Dec 1st 2009, 12:27
@ Dr Francis Saliba:
Yes, if Fr Mark Montebello's argument were to be summed up the way you did sum it up, then I would agree that it would be both illogical and defeatist.
renald williams
Dec 1st 2009, 12:17
we can better practice Christ's teachings by reading Christ's New Testament: Romans 10:17; 2 Corinthians 1:13; Ephesians 3:3-4; Colossians 4:16; 1 Thessalonians 5:27; Hebrews 4:12; 1 Peter 1:23-25.
Franco Farrugia
Dec 1st 2009, 10:25
@ Mr Cordina - I suggest that you speak for yourself. Many, many Maltese people were not in the least perturbed by what Fr Montebello said in public. At least, up to what I heard and read, I feel there was nothing, absolutely nothing which should shame the priest. And I am one who has lived most of his life under the loving and merciful stare of the Crucifix!
S, Mr Cordina, let's give you the banner, now, and onward to ... the 21st Century Crusade, starting from Malta!
Dr Francis Saliba
Dec 1st 2009, 10:01
Fr Montebello’s argument can be summarized as “Many Christians have so diverged from the message of Christ that, having removed Christ from their hearts ALL other Catholics may just as well not object to the removal of the crucifix from schoolroom walls also”. Nothing could be more illogical and more defeatist attitude coming from a Catholic philosopher priest. A much more reasonable reaction would be for him to support his religious superiors by redoubling the efforts so that weak Catholics would become better Catholics and not that they should throw in the towel when faced with a challenge from alien atheists.