Judgment on crucifixes in schools (2)

Kurt Mifsud

Nov 10th 2009, 13:11

@Alfred Grech

Anke d-dagha parti mill-kultura. Allura tajjeb? Jien li jien atheist nghidlek le ghax jien mhux l-iskop tieghi li noffendi r-religjon ta haddiehor. Meta kienet kultura fl-antik li jissagrifikaw lil xi bniedem, kien tajjeb ghax kultura? Meta jhaggru lil xi mara ghax ixxammar il-komma f'xi pajjiz musulman tajjeb ghax kultura? L-argument tieghek ma jreggix, jiddispjacini.


@Galea. L

Trid nitkellmu bil-maggoranza? L-ewwel nett il-kurcifissi jitilqu jkollhom ghax il-maggoranza tal-Maltin ivvutat ghal shubija fl-EU u l-maggoranza ta l-EU iddecidew hekk.

Jigifieri int qed tghid li per ezempju l-gays ma jkollhomx drittijiet ghax qeghdin f'minoranza? Id-divorzju ma jidholx ghax il-maggoranza ma jriduhx avolja hemm min ghandu bzonnu u suppost min hu kattoliku devot ma jaffetwahx fl-ahhar mill-ahhar? taf x'nghidlek fuq il-maggoranza habib... jekk taf l-istorja kien hemm zmien meta l-kattolici kienu se fi krizi ta minoranza u hadd ma qeridhom. Meta imbaghad gew f'maggoranza bis-sahha ta Kostantinu riedu jeqirdu lil min ma jaqbilx maghhom. U dik il-mentalita hemm ghada, jew maghna jew issofri.

Id-domanda tieghi hi, kemm hi difficli taccettaw in-newtralita f'postijiet pubblici, mhux fil-knejjes ta jew djarkom, pubblici?

Galea. L

Nov 9th 2009, 15:36

Kurt Mifsud
JIen ma nghidlikx itlaq ghax int Malti, imma l-kurcifissi hemm jibqghu.
Il-minoranza m'ghandha l-ebda dritt tiddetta lill-maggoranza.
Kemm sirtu tiddejqu li taraw kurcifiss?

Alfred Grech

Nov 9th 2009, 14:58

Ramon, no, the holocaust was not ok. That was oppression and murder.

We don''t have similar situation here in Malta and the minority should not be punished if they do not accept the will of the majority but they should not attempt to change the country simply because they decided they don't want to belong to the same religion the majoirty of Maltese do and should not use the courts to attempt to eliminate religious icons from public places since the majority of the public want such icons.

Alfred Grech

Nov 9th 2009, 14:53

@Kurt Mifsud. Mhux jien ma nisthix imma dawk li jridu jeqirdu dak li ilu tradizzjoni u parti mill-kultura Maltija ghall-hafna generazzjonijiet.

I'm not fond of Paceville, but I don't condemn it and I don't fight against it. I simply don't go there. If you don't believe, you're very unfortunate to live in a Catholic country so you have no choice but to accept what the majority wants and all we want is to safeguard what many genertions have left behind.

Public places belong to the public and if the majority of the public want the Crucifix, then the Crucifix should stay.

lgalea

Nov 9th 2009, 14:35

Although the decision to remove the Crucifixes was taken by the European Court of Human Rights, the EU Commission had also presented a proposal for a Directive which was passed by the Civil Liberties Committee on 16.03.2009 by 34 in favour 7 against and by the European Parliament by 363 in favour and 226 against and which could provide the possibility for a similar challenge in the ECJ.

It is to be noted that Kathalijne Maria Buitenweg of the Greens who was also a rapporteur appointed on 15.9.2008 had said that "Notwithstanding the obvious advantages of this Directive, we had to take whole months of hard work to gain support for it in the European Parliament."

Where do the Greens in Malta stand on this issue?
Can we also know how Simon Busuttil voted since he was one of the substitutes present for the final vote?

S. Calleja

Nov 9th 2009, 13:54

@ Alfred Grech

Human rights are not decided by majority ruling. There is no such thing as the rights of the majority, but only the rights (and responsibilities of course) of the individual.

Kurt Mifsud

Nov 9th 2009, 13:29

@Alfred Grech

Nammira l-kattolicizmu jixghel fik, specjalment il-fatt li tant taccetta lil haddiehor li tasal biex tkeccieh mill-pajjiz. Tiehux hsieb xbin ga bbukkjajt il-flight biex nitlaq minn pajjizi li tewlidt fih u dejjem hallast it-taxxi ghax jien atheist. Nahseb mohhok jahdem bhal ta Ratzinger hux, il-Kattolicizmu biss iwassal ghas-salvazzjoni.

Lanqas ghandek idea qisek ta x'inhi newtralita hux? F'darek u fil-knisja taghkom wahhlu li tridu, mhux bicca tieghi u ta min hu tal-fehma tieghi. Imma post pubbliku hallieh newtrali. Imbilli int kattoliku m'int xejn iktar minni, m'intix qed toffri kontribut lis-socjeta iktar minni. Mela zomm postok fis-socjeta u accetta lil haddiehor minghajr ma taghmel pregudizzji u minghajr ma thallat ir-religjon ma l-istat.

J Schembri

Nov 9th 2009, 11:58

And another thing.

If 'freedom of expression' is becoming limited, can anyone suggest a better name for this pls?

All suggestions welcome!

J Schembri

Nov 9th 2009, 11:53

@ Mr Grech

Well said, my friend!

But I think that since our religion is written down as a main religion in our Constitution, I do not think they can do anything.

Or can they??

Charles Sammut

Nov 9th 2009, 11:27

@ Alfred Grech

Just because the majority likes something, does not mean it is justified or correct. The majority would like to abolish taxes . . . . . . . . . . . .

Religion is a private matter. Your right to practice your religion or not to, is a universal human right. What is not a human right is to impose your beliefs on others. The same way you are convinced that what you believe in is right, is the same that others might believe that you are grossly mistake if not downright ridiculous.

So in our multi-cultural and diverse society, Catholics ahould practice what they preach and further encourage the cultural melange fully aware of the consequences. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

I think that it will not be me who will have to pack up and leave my country. Time will tell.

Ramon Casha

Nov 9th 2009, 11:05

@Alfred Grech: So the holocaust was perfectly ok? After all the Jews were only a minority.

By the way, "any atheist" could be just as Maltese as you are, and therefore their secular lifestyle is a Maltese custom too.

Kurt Mifsud

Nov 9th 2009, 10:19

@Alfred Grech

Kemm ma tisthix siehbi. Kellu bzonn siehbi jkollok xi hadd min uliedek jitla b'opinjoni differenti. Kont se nghidlek fejn nitlaq. Kun af li jien inhallas Malti daqsek u nhallas taxxi bhalek. Tista tghidli x'kontribut iktar minni ghandek int biex tghidli nitlaq? Min int biex tghidli itlaq. Fil-knejjes u fi djarkom ghamlu li tridu imma fil-postijiet pubblici tnehhuhom ikollkom ghax dawk huma PUBBLICI = NEWTRALI. Hadd ma qallek gej inwahhallek turban jew statwa ta buddha ta, newtrali. Sfortunatament minhabba "catholic wannabes" bhalek niex bhali jigu ddiskrimanti f'dan il-pajjz ghax ir-religjon taghkom mhux vera taghllimkom taccettaw lil haddiehor. Infatti Ratzinger stess kien bezaqa li l-unika relgjon li twassal ghas-salvazzjoni hija l-Kristjanezmu. Pff, egoismu inkredibbli

Alfred Grech

Nov 9th 2009, 10:02

The majority rules and no court of law should go against what the majority wants. Any atheist who does not like the Crucifix in school or public places, can pack their luggage and go and live somewhere else or put up with the customs of Malta and the Maltese.

While we are part of the EU, we should not allow the EU to change our culture and beliefs.

A few don't want the Crucifix - the huge majority want it - why should the courts please the few? How about the rights of the majority? The ruling in Europe was irrational, irresponsible and stupid.