Wednesday, 4th November 2009 - 15:13CET
Crucifix ban decision deplorable - David Casa
The European Court of Human Rights decision banning crucifixes in Italian classroom was deplorable, Nationalist MEP David Casa said.
"It is deplorable for a country to be denied exhibiting a symbol of its culture and heritage," Mr Casa said.
The court, Mr Casa said, should not have interfered in this particular case.
The crucifix symbolised the importance of Christian values which played a fundamental role in the shaping of Europe and continued to reflect the way Europeans conducted their everyday lives, he said.
"The crucifix should be seen as a sign of harmony, unity and hospitality for all humanity, even for those with different beliefs, but it is also a fundamental part of our history and culture," he insisted.
Meanwhile, the European Commission representation and the European Parliament office in Malta said that the judgement did not come from the European Union or any of its institutions.
The court which gave this ruling was not the court of the European Union but of the Council of Europe, they said.
The Council of Europe, of which Malta has been a member since independence, brings together 47 nations a good number of which are not EU member states.
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I have nothing against any religious beleifs, when I travel to other countries and the country i visit is muslim, i accept the fact that in EVERY street corner all i hear is Allah hu Akhbar starting from 5am...but i am in their country and thats the way it should be, I have no right and dont want them to change that either...but obviously...mate...when you come to MY country you gotta accept our ways, our culture and our religion...we are not saying you must follow our ways, but accept and respect our country and its traditions...ok european union humanitarian rights and whatever...whats the next thing you are gonna come up with to deprive us of OUR rights, so far all i heard was you cant do this and cant have that....what happened to our Maltese identity anyways???
Maltese Catholics, Maltese Natiionals, Maltese Muslims, Maltese atheists, maltese agnostics??
List goes on....
You said that matter around us has its beginning from energy and you used your logic by quoting Einstein’s E=mc2. This is utterly wrong and you do not understand the equation at all..let alone you claim to know GOD! Your thinking, as with the majority of others, is Newtonian 3 dimensional linear thinking and thus very limited. Science has made great progress by entering the realm of the Quantum phyisics.
You said that the mass around us has its beginning from energy—WRONG. Mass = Energy, one and the same.
You asked: “Where did this energy come from - and science cannot and will never explain this question. The Church does!!” No sir, the church does NOT explain this and cannot. The only answer you and the church can give to that question is obviously GOD.
Prove it. If my answer is Zeus (and I cannot prove it) my answer would be either valid like yours, or total nonsense.
The Catholic faith contradicts the bible creation story. science will explain how the big bang was triggered in the future and there's no need to say "god did it" to fill the gap, using your logic may i ask you where did your god came from ? if there is a creator then the creator must have a creator so far there's no evidence for your god or any other deity that it might exist.
@ Joseph Cauchi
I am an atheist and i am in no way afraid of the cross i actually want it there to stay. why are you afraid of losing your religious symbols. you must have a really weak faith. are you the same religious who embrace multi culturalism and immigration then abruptly change your mind when something threatens you as a citizen ?
For the umpteenth time, nobody is afraid of the crucifix. Don't fool yourself into thinking that it has some special magical powers over non-believers or people of other faiths, as if everyone is evil except Catholics. Read my other comments further down below.
Most of the people who seek reassurance in talismans (such as with a crucifix that causes fear amongst its "enemies") are people who have serious doubts about their faith and who are subjective to superstitions.
You can leave the crucifix in the classes if you like, but then don't complain if you see me come with a statue of Buddha or the Koran to hang in class, since I would have all the secular right to do so using your own same reasoning (being in Malta does not give you the power to favour one religion over the other - the constitution makes sure of this too). You might think that your religion is true, but so do the Muslims, the Buddhist, the Hinduists, the Methodists, the Protestants, etc, etc, and in exactly the same way.
"We live in a Roman Catholic country and our religion is embedded in our constitution."
When you say "our", are you referring to all Maltese citizens? What about those Maltese citizens who are not Roman Catholic? Why do you assume that all Maltese are Roman Catholic, or that those who aren't are "less" of a citizens that those who are?
"Therefore, we are proud of our Christianity and to be more precise, proud to be Roman Catholics."
And I thought people would be proud of their religion because of personal beliefs, rather than because it is written in the constitution.
"we are PROUD ROMAN CATHOLICS and will be in full force behind the Maltese Roman Catholic Church"
It is this pride that is dangerous, especially when used with words like "force" and as some other people mentioned, "fight". People fight for something they fear can be taken away from them. If you really believe in Jesus, nobody can take that away from you.
The closemindedness and indoctrination beyond reason is amazingly depressing in this country. A very superficial religion of feasts, statues and prayers learnt by heart, with no real_substance.
However, in Europe, we are not playing on a level playing field. The vacuum that will be left when the crucifixes go will swiftly be filled in with the symbols of the most vocal and belligerent religion in line and European lawmakers will be all falling upon themselves to accommodate. Mark my words.
People want everybody to be equal and to accept one another etc yet they want it subject to their own prejudices. Political correctness gone mad is what this decision is all about.
Julian Borg says:- "It's also fascinating how so many people can quickly lose the plot when it comes to religion." Then he goes on to say that he does not want religion in schools! Why?
He should be reminded that nobody is forcing his children to look at any religious symbols. That is his own interpretation. So, who has lost the plot here, Mr Borg?
HOW ABOUT HANGING ON OUR ROOFS, BALCONIES, WINDOWS ETC... A LIGHTED CRUCIFIX
FROM NEXT MONDAY WEEK? WHO IS FOR THIS SUGGESTION PASS IT TO OTHERS!!!!
This is OUR country. It is vastly Roman Catholic. Crucifixes have been on our walls, schools and everywhere for ages. Those who don't like them are a tiny minority. We are proud of out beliefs and shall not allow them to be suppressed because some followers of any other religion or sect feel offended, especially more so if they are foreigners. They are free to leave and go back to their own countries. No one sent for them.
For those who are saying that the crescent is the symbol of Islam it is not. Islam does not have any symbols because they are prohibited. This case arose out of an atheist and it is atheists who are causing all these problems. They should get the message that the vast majority of Maltese citizens are Roman Catholics and shall not be threatened by no one to remove the crucifixes and other religious symbols. Let them try I say.
After crucifix ban like in other european countries..classbooks have to be re written..and at the end of the line...sharia law...I hope now people will start to realize.
If one has problems with portraying Buddha, then someone else has a problem with portraying the crucifix. It's that simple. The fact the Malta is majority Catholic is irrelevant to the argument, since the constitution is clear about the liberty of having any religion one feels most comfortable in, as long as no law is broken.
One might have Jesus very strong at heart, but don't forget about the other who might love his Buddha more than you do love Jesus. If this point is not clear, then one cannot argue further since all arguments must follow a rational path based on well established universal facts, not just assumptions created to protect one's perception of the world.
We live in a Roman Catholic country and our religion is embedded in our constitution. Therefore, we are proud of our Christianity and to be more precise, proud to be Roman Catholics. On the other hand, this should not be a problem to others like you who do not believe in God, not to mention 'any God'.
You may keep your opinion but please respect the opinion of the majority of the population. There are other countries who have their religion embedded in their constitution and some of them even in the official name of their country such as Iran and Egypt. At least you can practice your religion or non-religion in peace in Malta without the state imposing its religion on you.
Insomma, if Julian Borg is an atheist, who cares; we are PROUD ROMAN CATHOLICS and will be in full force behind the Maltese Roman Catholic Church and Mons. Paul Cremona OP when we need to defend our religious rights.
Are they so scared of this Holy Image?
As far as I know, only the DEVIL is scared of the Holy Crucifix!
JC.
The fallacy enshrined so dearly by so many atheists, is the assumption, that religion, had the social function, to provide answers as to how the Earth and Universe originated! Moreover, they say, that in the past, religion could explain many natural phenomena now attributed to science.
However, Christianity does not have that function. Every Christian who knows his/her religion, knows that, the purpose of Christianity, was never related to what these atheists claim.
The silent "invasion" of Europe...........
After the crucifix ban, what is next ???
We will know and understand in the not so distant future.........but then perhaps it will be too late.
Then, there will come a time when our descendants will have to abide by another particular religious institution .....a religious institution that outnumbers the present one.
Crucifixes are there to Stay what ever happens,
@ Julian Borg : MARK My Words !!!
How can anyone be an atheist?
Have you ever looked around you?
Where does matter come from? According to Einstein E=mc2, that is the mass around us has its beginning from energy.
So far, so good, this has been proven by the Big Bang theory, where a single point of energy exploded outward, creating planets, stars etc.
HOWEVER one thing is still a big mystery!
Where did this energy come from - and science cannot and will never explain this question.
The Church does!!
but liberals are doing this to appease the Islamic Religion. Islam will soon be the dominating Religion in Europe and you'll have to succumb to their faith whether you're a Christian, Atheist etc... most of liberals who are Atheists tend to favor Muslims and embrace multi culture, immigration and diversity. as a right wing Atheist i disagree with removing the crosses. i accept that the majority of Malta is catholic and i will defend that. i rather have a Christian neighbor than a Muslim. Christians doesn't fear atheists but they fear Muslims and so do i because Muslims are more extremists and dominating. being atheist in Europe is not a big deal but being atheist in a Islamic country it is. you got the point now ?
It is not a human right to have a crucifix in the classroom. If one were to give that right, then one would also have to give the right to have Buddhas, Korans and all other artefacts representing the various religions of the world. You cannot discriminate one religion over the other.
What is human right, on the other hand, is the right to believe and practise any religion one feels comfortable in, within the limits of the law.
"The crucifix means that God loves us all so much that died for us all, no matter what we believe in."
Not for everyone. For some people it is just a symbol of Christianity, and a hideous sign of an old torture technique used by the Romans in more violent times.
Why do you say you won’t argue with me and immediately proceed to argue? I never addressed you anyway! Did I say anywhere that “that everyone else should have (my) same opinion or belief”? Of course not! Since you ask, I would never “lose my faith if there were no crucifix around”. But being a practicing Christian living in an officially Catholic country I resist any atheist who would impose his atheism on me by the deprivation of having the crucifix hanging in Malta's classrooms, or anywhere else, to accommodate his lack any religious conviction and who would abolish the public expression of the Christian faith to Maltese Catholics practicing their religion in their own Catholic country!
Have you ever realised that there a number of Maltese nationals who are Muslim?
Christian to the core! If only you could keep religion to yourself instead of bringing atheism into the equation. This has nothing to do with atheism but I think you're too narrow minded to grasp the concept.
As for atheism, keep in mind that everyone is born an atheist. It is through indoctrination that one becomes a christian, a muslim, a buddhist, etc. Atheism, as opposed to religion, is not enforced but embraced through rational thought. On top of that every believer is an atheist with respect to all other religions. Despite all the double talk virtually no religion tolerates other religions hence the many religion motivated conflicts. I have yet to see a mono-theistic religion tolerate another mono-theistic religion. All vouch that theirs is the one and only, which is simply crap, to put it bluntly.
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Politics/David-Cameron-On-Lisbon-Treaty-Tory-Leader-To-Announce-British-Sovereignty-Act/Article/200911115433064?lpos=Politics_Carousel_Region_2&lid=ARTICLE_15433064_David_Cameron_On_Lisbon_Treaty%3A_Tory_Leader_To_Announce_British_Sovereignty_Act
ECHR.EU or whoever, it is foreign interference. We should erect a mega crucifix near the break water to serve as a notice to Muslims and other denominations that we are a Christian Country and if they get offended by the sign of the cross it’s just hard luck to them
No you haven't understood my argument correctly, but I do admire your imagination, I'm really trying to figure out how you came to the conclusion that I want to destroy mosques on the island. I'm an Atheist, not a bigot.
It's also fascinating how so many people can quickly lose the plot when it comes to religion. I just also want to point out the economic genius that is Paul Spiteri, who believes that we should leave the EU, because they have hurt his feelings. These sound like the same compassionate people that were instrumental in kicking the muslims out of the Sliema apartment that they were using for prayer groups. People that talk about Human Rights as long as it has to do with them.
I just want the religious pandering away from my children, the same reason you don't want some other sect passing pamphlets to your kids in the street, I don't want religion at all in their schools, and if I did, I'd know where to send them... Church School.
I still firmly believe in Christian values which are being eroded by the gradual penetration of fundamental Islam Europe.
Gays have their rights too, equal rights too and we should respect them. Gays have the right to family life, to live together as loving human beings and the state should accord them these rights.
Where you forced to look at the crucifix at school? I don't think so. It seems that today you opted not to look at it but that is your opinion.
In a few years time Turkey will join the EU. That's 70million muslims in the EU. How will they react if this happened to them?
By the way...the Maltese Parlaiment has already approved the accession of Turkey on our behalf!
Buddha, Vishna and the prophet of doom do not belong to these island and history and tradition are proof of this. Those who adhere to these religions must understand it and probably don't make a fuss about it. Its only certain liberals disguised as atheists that put forward these ridiculous arguments. Otherwise if they are so cheeky they have a hidden agenda.
If you are strong in your ideals you need not to fear the crucifix unless you are a satanist.
It's ok to have a society full of sexual images, sexual messages and violent games on pcs and internet, but it's not ok to have a cross in a classroom?
Also,let's be realistic and see how many Muslims (without any disrespect purely as an example) would give up wearing their Burka because it disrespects/offends people of other religions any time soon?
I say let them keep thier crosses if they accept to hang a star of david, a buddha hindu idols........
Your children are not being forced to look at any crucifix on any classroom wall. Unless they suffer from some form of ocular combined with other paralyses, they are absolutely free to look in all other directions! I suspect that your underlying motive is the surreptitious imposition of atheism on all believers, you would be much better employed, for example, in criticizing the public display of a tasteless large phallic symbol in the center of a busy traffic roundabout distracting drivers! You give the unmistakable impression that your real aim is the public imposition of a “religion” called “atheism” on everybody else.
Now you are finding out what you realy voted for and why we English do not wan`t it but have had it forced on us by Blair and Brown.
This is only the begining, you aint seen nothing yet, mark my words.
D. Bagnall
England.
Let's get the facts right before we open our gobs!
fair enough.... what would your position be however if Turkey joins the EU and has islamic symbols on its flag??? what if it offends catholics??
it doesnt make sense, to ask turkey to remove such symbols!! why?? turkey's flag is its identity!
Then is it ok if I put a statue of Buddha, Vishna or Mohammed in our classrooms as well? Like that, we won't be imposing atheism on anybody...
So, if I'm understand your argument correctly, we should also demolish every Mosque on the Island since it's a symbol of 1 particular religion !!!
Why did I say, undemocratic? Well I am sure that if the Germans and Austrians today, would vote no to the Lisbon treaty. It is about party politics, and nothing to do with what the people want!
How ironic, this world is. The demo-christian party in Malta (PN), who were so fervent into placing Malta into the EU now cannot stop foreign courts interference as they would have to abide by the European Courts!
This is only one step away, from the true "teeth" of the EU institutions.
Religious symbols of any kind should not be permitted in public places. What gives anyone the right to offend anyone else?. Keep religion private or send your children to Christian schools.
i fully agree with you, the crucifix is part or our culture and identity and we should be left to use it and display it wherever we want, unless it is used to offend people, which in my opinion when on a classroom wall doesnt.
i ask this, if turkey eventually joins the eu, if someone feels offended by the islamic symbol used on the turkish flag ( crescent and star) and goes to the European Court of Human Rights, will the court tell Turkey to chage its flag?? if it does, do you think the turks will accept this???
i do not wish to make a religious issue out of this i am just making a point that things that give people an identity can not be touched!!
i rest my case!!
Any person of goodwill will definitely object to evil and wrongdoing.
Alla, Dias, Zeus or God is a greater being that is the creator. Coexistence among of people of goodwill cannot object to the Crucifix, Buddha, Allah in good faith. Any fundamentalism and fanatics make bad use of religion. Religion is prayer and a relationship with God and theology goes into the study of God.
Malta has Christ in the centre and there are non believers. But the commandments and Christian values and their symbol is our culture. As is the diety of the Goddess of Fertility which had the notion of eternity, childbearing and goodness. Christ revealed that we ought to love our enemies and make as friends.
But no one cannot enforce that our Crucifix must be removed. Christ is here to stay. If enforced I recommend that we dissassociate with the EU and leave its membership.
Otherwise, the next step given the direction that's been taken is the removal of crosses and other imagery from atop domes of Churches, from inside niches, etc..
I don't want McDonalds peddling burgers in my kids schools, I don't want Cocacola pushing sugary drinks, and I don't want priests pushing stuff I don't believe in on my kids. When they're old enough, they can find religion, until then I want the religious zealots out of public buildings and back to where they belong, the church, the states, and the middle east.