University denies crucifixes are being removed

Daniel Jackson

Nov 7th 2009, 19:42

Well I should say that some buildings like computing don't seem to have any crucifixes at all. There shouldn't be one in every lecture room but a few and perhaps one in one of the labs at the very least, why not.....
I think Fr Bugeja has never been to this and other buildings within university.

Graham Crocker

Nov 6th 2009, 13:24

Why don't Catholics wear crosses to show their faith?

Christian Sciberras

Nov 6th 2009, 09:39

If the Malta is ignorant enough to move into the future, let the EU guide it.

Joe Fenech

Nov 3rd 2009, 14:05

Malta's turn next !

http://www.corriere.it/cronache/09_novembre_03/crocifisso-aule-scolastiche-sentenza-corte-europea-diritti-uomo_e42aa63a-c862-11de-b35b-00144f02aabc.shtml

Christian Sciberras

Oct 27th 2009, 16:17

R. Zabbar - You have to understand that some people believe not hanging crosses just about everywhere is evil.
Talk about fanatics.

R. Zabbar

Oct 26th 2009, 12:33

Dear all. This article has nothing to do with another religion especially Islam. I am really wondering that some people feel that Islam causes this problem and they need to defence against it. The matter is actually simple. It is an EU law not to hang any religion symbol in public rooms, so if you accept European money, you need to accept the European law. If you feel not comfortable with this law you should reject it some years ago. It is nothing to do with other religion and if you need in this case to defence your faith, you need first to defence against your European fellows (law).

Christian Sciberras

Oct 26th 2009, 10:32

@Mary Smith - You should hate a deed, not ideology. I don't support Islam. If it were me, all religions would be abolished in favour of personal opinions, since religions are the seeds of international unrest. By the way, since you also mentioned this, may I point you to several poems/novels by prolific Maltese writers, which describe a worse situation in a Catholic culture? If it were me, I'd prefer instant death instead of a life living isolated by everyone and being everyone's trashbin of sins. This, said about the situation in Malta.

@Charles Grixti - I very much understand that. What people don't understand is that by by putting a couple of crosses in classrooms doesn't make up for death of Muslims by taking their resources.

@Isobel Mcgonigle - Let's just arm ourselves with swords and armour and crush Islamists, ok? You know, Templar/medieval-style?

Maybe you people should quite this childs' play of crosses and actually start practicing the religion you seem so faithfull of.
The debate will continue as long as society remains sick, field with fundamentalists, liars, intollerance and fanaticsm.

Best regards,
Christian Sciberras.

Christian Sciberras

Oct 26th 2009, 10:24

@Emma Xerri - However it's Catholics we're talking about. Still with the same mentality, "do what the others does"?

@Raymond Cachia - I don't remember saying anything like that, did I?

@GiovDeMartino - http://tickledbylife.com/index.php/rethinking-fools-and-mad-men/
At least a non-Catholic realized something you don't. Church itself disputed and persecuted instead of collaborated. I don't think being ignorant cavemen would have been what God planned for us.

@GiovDeMartino - As to who "we" attack, speak of yourself. I know very much the political parties' positions as well as the Church's. Throughout this whole article, I don't see any response from each. And I, personally, wouldn't "attack" the authorities. It's society that's sick and is behind all. The Government, Church and institutions are just a product of society.

Isobel Mcgonigle

Oct 26th 2009, 06:15

@
Albert(We on first name terms now my friend)
Once again,with respect sir,here in Malta you have not experienced the full force,a society filled with people from different cultures,faiths,
In the UK.Hindus,Catholics,etc,every religion in the World,is there in the U,K
Never any problems,except from the followers of Islam,seems like the way of life,traditions of the West, does nothing but offend them,so go back to the Middle East then.
No way,got it too cushy in the U.K,free houses,free handouts,if something they dont like? no problem,the U.K will change its culture,way of life so not to upset them.
Islamic finance? 7 pieces of silver comes to mind?

A. Muscat

Oct 25th 2009, 19:38

@ Isobel Mcgonigle Malta could be 'Bahrain in the Med' - Islamic finance experts It was concurred that had Islamic finance been predominant in the world, the financial crisis would probably not have happened. http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20091025/business/malta-could-be-bahrain-in-the-med-islamic-finance-experts. This exactly what I was referring to couples of days ago in my comment down here. No need we keep aggrandize one side and despise the other. This lead mankind to nowhere. Let us find a common ground and look at the too many positive sides please. Thank you Albert.

Isobel Mcgonigle

Oct 25th 2009, 08:35

This debate could go on for ever
The facts?
The greater plan is the Islamification of Europe,within the next two decades,no one is doing anything to stop it,it fact the do gooders politicians etc,seem to be doing everything in their powers ,to help the Muslim population achieve their goal
@A Muscat,with respect,it wont matter an iota what the Bishop,the Pope says,once Islam have achieved their aim,100 million Muslims in Europe,then my friend,be afraid,very afraid

A. Muscat

Oct 24th 2009, 18:31

@ Isobel Mcgonigle

Please have a look at what the Bishop says and refer to my comment to you three days ago. Thanks

Bishops urge MPs to consider consequences of gambling

http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20091024/local/bishops-urge-mps-to-consider-consequences-of-gambling

Charles Grixti

Oct 23rd 2009, 22:00

@Christian Sciberras

Oil is the BEST resource on Earth at the moment. Wars have been fought over it and will keep on being fought.

With the Oil revenue, rich Middle East kingdoms can afford to buy, the best water, the best food and all the gold and diamonds that their hearts desire. The only problem that Westerner’s cause to the Middle East because of their Oil consumption is an excess of wealth, albeit concentrated in the hands of a few Sheiks.

Mary Smith

Oct 23rd 2009, 21:19

@Christian Sciberras

Are you telling me that we shouldn’t hate that which is evil? Is this the new “Politically Correct” Morality?

For example, in Somalia, a few months back a young girl of 13 was gang-raped. Her father reported her to the authorities, who came for her and took her to an open stadium where the crowds stoned her to death.

Shouldn’t we all hate what was done to this child, even if it comes from a religion?

And this is by no means an isolated case. Where is the moral outrage?

And please do not give me the excuse that these are extremists, for they are not. They are just following the teachings of Islam. Turkey’s Prime Minister Erdogan correctly explained this to the West and its Islamic apologists when he said, and I quote “There is no moderate or immoderate Islam. Islam is Islam and that’s it.”

Frankly, I do not know whether I ought to be more enraged at the perpetrators of these crimes against humanity or by their supporters here in the West.

GiovDeMartino

Oct 23rd 2009, 18:31

We attack Sir Gonzi not the Archbishop; we are against political priesta not the church; we are against the church not religion as such.....The seeds are bearing fruit now. Remove the Crucifix first bec. we may offend the odd muslim and secondly bec not all Maltese are catholics.

Marton Saliba

Oct 23rd 2009, 18:22

And yet I was asked more than once to refrain weariong my pendant due to religious concerns despite al the crucifixes around the necks and walls in that area.

Are they worried of religious liberty that some faiths might be the bane of this chatholic one?

A symbol in a common area indicates that all the dwellers in that area are conected to that symbol, which is of course not the case.

GiovDeMartino

Oct 23rd 2009, 18:08

He who is a fool and knows that he is a fool....at least he is clever enough to realize his limitations; but he who is a fool and thinks that he is clever, very clever, Alla jilliberak minnu!

Charles Muscat

Oct 23rd 2009, 17:58

In a degenerating world of egoistic sex exploitation, a world of 'right-is-might' culture and loss of respect toward neighbour, a world dominated by money power and daily massacres of innocent people by violent trigger happy muslims, THE CRUCIFIX is the greatest sign of unrelenting and unselfish love that man has ever experienced. There is no other substitute to it. There might be positive elements in other religions but no other religion can offer an alternative to the loving nature of Jesus, the Son of God.

Raymond Cachia

Oct 23rd 2009, 17:48

@Christian Sciberras

So in your view, if I hate Nazism (an ideology that was started by Germans) then it is the equivalent of I hate Germans or vice-versa? This is faulty logic and reasoning.

Emma Xerri

Oct 23rd 2009, 17:40

@Christian Sciberras

I never said I hate Muslims so please do not put words into my mouth. In fact what I said was quite the opposite.

But one can hate an ideology or a religion.

You state that as a Catholic you are interested to debate Muslims about Islam, but I doubt very much if you are prepared.

In order to debate Muslims, you will need to have thorough and clear understanding of the Koran and what it teaches Muslims. For example, to a Christian Westerner like you, Islam states that one should not spill the blood of innocents. This sounds to you just like the Christian message of universal love. However, what Muslims will neglect to tell you is that in Islam, only true-believers are considered to be innocents, so therefore it is permissible to kill unbelievers as yourself.

Islam differs from Christianity at several crucial points, for example, regarding the distinction between spiritual and secular power and the perception of the use of force. Islam has no equivalent of the New Testament, and no universal human message of love. These differences have resulted in the active rejection by Islam and the Muslim world of the Enlightenment and Humanism.

Sandro Agius

Oct 23rd 2009, 16:56

Christian, you're right - we must learn to to collaborate and coexist with others that don't share our opinions.....but this means that others must learn to coexist with those who want the crucifix in class. Why shall I, a Maltese citizen who pay the taxex, who pay for my education shall not have what is by right and more by constitution...this is far from church/state affairs...the crucifix is an identity, a European Christian identity...which tolerates others but who others must tolerate even if they are atheists.

"If any were removed from the older classrooms it was just to paint the walls during refurbishing but they have now all been put back," - here Fr.Bugeja too must check for OH is not that new but no crucifix or a nail with wall is found....this is just the beginning and with end like what happened in France....we must not collaborate with whom has no respect towards others rights. Sorry, but this is a fact and not a dream.

U min meta l'hawn gejna "a Christian community" - spiccajna komunita issa daqs il-komunita Izlamika - taf x'jonqos nichdu lill-ommna u lill-pajjizna ha nkunu tassew miftuhin

Christian Sciberras

Oct 23rd 2009, 16:48

@GiovDeMartino - Murder and looting sounds bad to you.

What about the damage you do by influencing and tricking others into your religion?
There's such thing as preaching and educating people on different religions versus forcing people into you religion by putting idols (such as, God forbid me, the holy cross).
Why, you ask? Because, you're *using* the cross to gain something.

My suggestions?
- More education about different religions.
- A more rich culture, where people actually CARE about their beliefs, rather then USING their beliefs against opponents.
- The removal of idols (which as I already pointed out) from public places (that is, only when such idols don't even make part of culture).
-Abolishment of discrimination against students of a different reigion or nationality*.

I, as a Catholic student, don't need any idols in the classroom to remind me of my belief.
If a student wanted to LOOK so Catholic, he might as well carry a Cross with himself.

*People seem to think they own Malta. Remember? The government you so love into giving it power OWNS Malta.

Regards,
Christian Sciberras.

Christian Sciberras

Oct 23rd 2009, 16:40

@GiovDeMartino - First, it's Sciberras not Schembri, secondly, that's an analogy between my thought and yours, where a country forgets it's constitution in favour of people's person desires, just because it's "the majority".
As I said, there's such thing as being religious and other studying, I hardly see a connection between the two. So again, why put corsses in classrooms?

@Sandro Agius - Agreed, it's just that people have to learn to collaborate and coexist with others that don't share their opinions.

@Emma Xerri - Since you base your values on a system which already removed certain freedom, I think it hardly fair to judge Muslims.
As a Catholic, I'm always prepared for an interesting debate between Catholicm and Islam, but not hate anyone for it.
Do you truly believe that all Muslims are evil? Wasn't Jesus himself that instructed his disciples to respect other religions?
Are you with Him or not?
As to oil, it's far from the best resource on earth. What about gold, food, clean water, (and even major oil resources such as in Alaska)?
So Westerners' consumption of oil causes problem in the east, and yet call Muslims evil?

Trevor Lorenzo Mizzi

Oct 23rd 2009, 15:56

@D. Soler

I agree with Ms. Emma Xerri’s assessment of the oil situation.

And I would hasten to add that this (sweet crude Oil) is the only reason why Islam is being given such importance in the West and is behind Muslim immigration into Europe and elsewhere. The wealth from these Oil rich kingdoms have corrupted our Politicians, who have no qualms about obeying the wishes of their new masters, be it in introducing Sharia laws into their countries, allowing unchecked Muslim immigration and the general appeasement of anything Muslim, in abasement and total disregard of the West’s own Judeo-Christian traditions and values.

Sandro Agius

Oct 23rd 2009, 14:26

This is not true because in no Old Humanities class there is a crucifix. I am a part time 3rd Year Theology Student and even the lecturers remarked that there are no crucifix. I think even the University Chaplain must check because in Old Humanities Classes and in Gateway no crucifix is found and this is already the 3rd year.

I think that at least were Theology is lectures a crucifix is a must altough a crufix in every classroom will not be the end of the world. If we are offended by a cross means we are lossing are same humanity.

Emma Xerri

Oct 23rd 2009, 14:23

@Doris Soler

Rather I think it is not me who is out of touch. The oil in the ground would have remained there were it not for the fact that the West and Western technologies, extract it, refine it and consume it. This I think has escaped your notice.

And where it not for the fact that certain Westerners are making billions of money in this business, we would have long ago found alternative and clean energy and perhaps saved the world from the pollution and the calamities that will surely follow.

However, once the Western finds its moral compass and gets off Oil, the the Oil Rich countries in the Middle East would be out of business. They know that one day this will happen so that is why they are busy buying large holding shares in Western Media Corporations, Banks, Blue Chip companies and prime Real Estate all over the world.

Emma Xerri

Oct 23rd 2009, 13:45

@D. Vella

You stated "which you are not allowed to do is to preach hate of race or religion or colour".

Take religion out of this equation. Race and Colour refer to human beings, and I agree that hate towards any ethic group is wrong. However, Religion is a belief system and ideology and yes I should be free to hate and fight against any ideology that goes against my values, especially those ideologies that in their core beliefs themselves preach hate and intolerance like Islam and Nazism.

The way things are today, they have made it is illegal to hate the haters, but it is not illegal for the haters to hate. And speaking of the UK, do you know that just this week a prominent Islamic cleric called for the Queen to convert to Isam immediately and for all her subject to follow suite?

GiovDeMartino

Oct 23rd 2009, 13:03

According to Mr. Christian Schem,bri m"according to my way of reasoning he could be killing and looting people" Haw xi professur, xi filosfu, xi hadd hu min hu jista' jispjegali KIF ir-reasoning tieghi (li f'Malta kattolika jixraq li jkun hemm Kurcifiss fl-Universita} ihajjar lis-sur Schem,bri joqtol u jisraq kemm irid? Grazzi bil-quddiem.

Philip Sultana

Oct 23rd 2009, 11:14

@Alfred Grech

"While we are on this subject we should all treasure the "8th. September" as our National Day".

The Great Siege took place in 1565, an era when people still thought that the earth was flat, that snakes came from roosters' eggs, Galilleo was persecuted by the Roman Catholic Church for suggesting that the earth rotates around the sun and the American continent had just been discovered by Europeans.

Surely, Malta has something a little more contemporary to celebrate!

Doris Soler

Oct 23rd 2009, 10:19

Attn D Carabott : your total ignorance of the religon into which you were probably born does you no credit. To put it gently, no - the cross is not hung there to remind us of mans inhumanity to man. Its hung there to keep constantly in our minds the supreme sacrifice of the Son of God, and also His Resurrection. What, I , a simple housewife, know this and someone who has received tertiary education does not ? So much for university educations !

Doris Soler

Oct 23rd 2009, 10:17

Attn Emma Xerri : I think you are rather out of touch with the realities of this world. WE, the westerners, pull the plug on ARAB NATIONS. In case it has escaped your notice, thats where we mostly get the oil which makes our world go round and boy, do they know it ! Pull the plug, honestly !!!

Maria Barbara

Oct 23rd 2009, 05:25

Well said Fr Michael. Our faith does not depend on outward signs only. Better said I think that is the least. Let us say we hope that our faith will be ingrained in our hearts and shown in our manners and love for one another. Keep up the good work at Uni.

Trevor Lorenzo Mizzi

Oct 22nd 2009, 23:02

@ A. Muscat,

"How can justify conquering lands and murdering civilians when it was done in the name of Jesus during the crusades?"

Same way Mohammed and his roving army murdered and robbed real Christians and Jews in the Middle East and North Africa.

A. Muscat

Oct 22nd 2009, 18:45

@ @Emma Xerri to @ DVella

'Evil is as Evil does and nobody and nothing should be above criticism, especially a religion.

I totally agree with you on this one. '

How can justify conquering lands and murdering civilians when it was done in the name of Jesus during the crusades?

DVella

Oct 22nd 2009, 17:28

@Emma Xerri

I don't really understand why your comment is directed at me in particular,and even more worrying, I don't really know what it is you are trying to say.

However this very day in England, the leader of a very right wing party,some would say Nazi , is being given air time on the most widely watched and respected talk program on BBC TV. "Question TIme".You may not agree with what he will have to say(I don't) but you should defend his right to say it. That is called the right to free speech.Maybe you should do a little more reading about what's going on in the World around you.You might even learn something about existing and respecting those who hold a different point of view.

Christian Sciberras

Oct 22nd 2009, 17:16

@GiovDEMartino - With your reasoning, I could be as well killing and looting people, just because others does it?

Besides, Malta is declared democratic, not non-descriminatory, so your points don't stand I a court.
I could as well the bring to court the University rector for discrimination against foreign and non-Catholic students and that case would actually stand.

Since I'm no University student, I don't care for what people do there. For me, it's just a matter for being correct.
As I said in previous comments, the University could be turned into a playground for what I care....next we'll be get social wars between religions.


Darn it, people quarel because of their respective parish patrons and you want to stick crosses everywhere you see, in a libreral country?

Regards,
Christian Sciberras.

Emma Xerri

Oct 22nd 2009, 16:20

@D. Vella

What if Nazism had declared itself to be a religion?

Then we would be jailed for criticising it. Then Churchill would have been gagged and thrown into prison, while Europe and England were overtaken. But this did not happen, only because we had more honest politicians in those days that truly stood for the people.

Evil is as Evil does and nobody and nothing should be above criticism, especially a religion.

Emma Xerri

Oct 22nd 2009, 16:08

@A. Muscat

We in the West need Sharia as much as we needed Nazism.

And how are we going to get rid of unmarried mothers by Sharia tactics, by stoning them to death like they do in Sharia compliant countries?

And Sharia banking is just banks that build in the interest in the principal sum, so that the interest is not shown separately. Sort of like fooling the Almighty so he will not notice that they are breaking his laws.

Do not make me laugh, the only reason that our Western Politicians, and that includes the Pope, are compliant is because they would love to bring in a totalitarian regime instead of democracy as this gives them unchecked powers.

As for Arab investments in SmartCity, what you are saying is that we should sell-out our country. Most Maltese would rather be poor but free and independent.

Anyway, the technology for SmartCity still has to come from the West, and from no Arab country. Even the investment money that they are now flaunting about was given to them by the West.

So, if the Christian West wanted, they could pull the plug, and presto, more camel riding Bedouins.

C Cassar

Oct 22nd 2009, 15:03

I laugh at people whose argument is "most of the Maltese are Catholic, therefore this is to stay". Why not hang "white power" banners all over the country then? After all, most Maltese are white, are they not?

And should, let's say, a new political party, let's call it the yellow party, stand for elections and win with a 51% majority, shall we infest the country with billboards and posters of their leader? The majority will be pleased. Who cares about the rest?

In George Carlin's words, the 11th commandment should be "Thou shall keep thy religion to thyself". If your faith depends on seeing a crucifix on a wall everywhere you go, you seriously need to find a new religion.

Charles Grixti

Oct 22nd 2009, 14:23

As a matter of principle, I am against all forms of religious symbols in public places.

However, this is coming up only now, that we have Muslims in our community. I am sure that before there are plenty of Protestants and Atheists and Agnostics who were none to happy with the crucifixes everywhere, even statues of the Virgin, in public and government places, but they never complained. Live and let live is their motto and tolerance is their creed.

Shall we also stop eating ham sandwiches too so as not to offend the Muslims? And what is this about "offending"? This was never a crime in the West as far as I can tell. I have been offended many times by many people, but I never went crying to the governent about it. Taking offence is purely a subjective thing. It sould not become part of the legal code of any democracy.

It is in Muslim cultures though. So are the Muslims trying to impose their culture at the expense of ours? Is this what "integrating the immigrants" all about? We have to forget our own culture and traditions and integrate into theirs! Sharia anyone?

colin stanley

Oct 22nd 2009, 13:24

@ Mr. Carabott. At this day and age, We care ,and I suppose our goverment cares too . remember before we joined the EU they always told us that Europe has the same Christian Values as ours, what has changed now, since we are part of europe, no body seem to mention it anymore,was it some sort of trick to get us to vote. you said that we are stirring things up by writing a few comments,what about , Violent protests all over the world, just because of a silly cartoon.

A. Muscat

Oct 22nd 2009, 12:53

Why the hysteria?

Is it mentioned anywhere in this article that the Imam in Malta (or any where else across Europe for that matter) ordered or even interfered to remove or hang crosses in public places?
Your Lowell-listism comments should be toward key decision makers not Muslims.

@ Robert Callus
‘Shame to whoever spread this rumour. The intention is obviously not a religious one, but to create conflict between people of different religions.’

GiovDEMartino@Christian Sciberras

Oct 22nd 2009, 12:25

Malta m'haw demokrazija. Malta haw diskrminazzjoni. Tafu ghala? Ghax fl-Universita hemm il-Kurcifissi mdendlin. F'Malta fejn il-maggoranza assoluta huma kattolici. DIN DISKRIMINAZZONI. X'ma titlax il-pressjoni!!!!!!!!!Malta qiesna l-Iran u t-Talebani. X'gharukaza. Kurcifiss fil-klassi.

E. Azzopardi

Oct 22nd 2009, 12:09

Leaving aside for a moment that our Constitution says that our religion is the Roman Catholic one, what happened for this to crop up? Are certain foreigners stirring this up? Do we have control of ourselves or not? Leaving the EU apart, because we CHOSE that ourselves, we should really make sure to be in control of the little of what is left,

Franco Farrugia

Oct 22nd 2009, 11:42

At Mr James Calleja - Well, I don t know much about your sensitivity, but indeed, when I have a guest in my house, I go out of my way to make him or her feel at home. For instance, if I had an animal-lover in my house, would I bring in a suckling pig on a platter? Or if I knew that someone had a phobia for ... cheese, for instance, would I go and present the cheese plate at table? To me, at least, the answer to both questions would be an emphatic NO.

Anyway, this is all nonsense. This is a non-issue because crucifixes are not being removed and nobody is asking for their removal! At the same breathe, one again I seriously question the reasons for all this uproar. I repeat: I am of the belief that much of this commotion is brought about by our sense of terror at the prospect of some culture challenging our faith and our faith is weak or non-existent and so, we react in this disgusting manner. This is hypocrisy at its worst!

FRANK MERCIECA

Oct 22nd 2009, 11:18

I actually live in England, and have been for the past 48 years. All I can say that I do business with all sorts of nationalities, and we all are respectfull of one another. Muslims are quite law abiding, and if you get to know them better more religious than us catholics, surely that is a good thing. No all the rubbish that is printed about England ie. that certain people have taken over is laughable..........after all all the foreigners put together only amount to 9% of the U.K. population. The multiculture of Britain, are all working for one thing.....to make the country better and more apt for today,s world.

D.Carabott

Oct 22nd 2009, 10:14

People... I can't beleive that in today's day and age a crucifix could stir up such commotion. At the end of the day, the cross, or whatever you want to call it, is nothing more to me than a reminder of how cruel we once were through our torturous acts on our fellow man. Today, it is seen as the most glorified symbol of catholics... funny how things turn out no? but at the end of the day... why make a bit deal about something that will most definitely not even inpact our lives at all... i spent 5 years at the University and didn't even notice any of them.. leave them, remove them... who cares.

colin stanley

Oct 22nd 2009, 10:13

@R.C.Werdmolder.and F. Bugeja. Iam not saying that I am a very good Christian, that,s not the point.The thing is that these are our traditions, which we had for hundreds of years,Like they have in every other country,why should we change them to please other people. do you think that others will change their views to please us. When I was young (ages ago ) we were told for example, don't go into St. Paul's Protestant church (Valletta ) because it's a sin to go there, or Alla hanien------somebody else hanzier. So who's fault is it , that I think this way? maybe the world is changing and I am living in the past,!!!!!

richard galea

Oct 22nd 2009, 09:31

We are at a crossroad here.....Do we really need to cross swords on this issue?

The way my Catholic fellow citizens want to manifest their faith make me cross!

Crosses crosses everywhere and not a single act of faith to sea!

It seems that the local Catholics are not really sure in their own faith......so they want to reassure themselves in a Talabanistic way......

james calleja

Oct 22nd 2009, 09:14

who cares if foreigners are offended. When i have a guest in myu house I do not reorganize my house in order to please my guest. Just imagine what would happen if we go to a muslim country and ask the ladies to remove their head garments, we will probably be dead by hanging in a public square!

Christian Sciberras

Oct 22nd 2009, 09:13

@GiovDeMartino - Personally, I doon't care much about it.
However, don't tell me it's a "democratic country".
You people talk of freedom, and non-discrimination.
You just manipulate it to your needs, there's no such things as freedom.

@adrian aquilina - Agreed.

@Isobel Mcgonigle - Typical medieval behaviour.

Alfred Grech

Oct 22nd 2009, 03:29

Let us be proud of our Maltese and Christian heritage as a people and not just as individuals; after all this is our country and others should not be offended; but if they are then..tough!!!!
While we are on this subject we should all treasure the "8 th. September" as our National Day
cause there will be a day when someone will say that it's offensive to muslims!

Robert Callus

Oct 21st 2009, 20:33

Shame to whoever spread this rumour. The intention is obviously not a religious one, but to create conflict between people of different religions.
I'm agnostic but a crucifix, wherever it is does not bother me. I know people (residing in Malta) from many different faiths such as Islam, Buddhist, Jehovah Witnesses, Hebrew as well as other atheists and agnostics. NOT A SINGLE PERSON seemed bothered about crucifixes. In fact whenever I had discussion with people of different faiths about religion (a topic that interests me) this issue was never raised by anyone.

Thanks to Fr Bugeja for clearing things out. Ironically this insane hatred towards non-Catholics is not coming from the church. I suspect it's much more used by the extreme right wing fanatics.

Franco Farrugia

Oct 21st 2009, 20:33

After reading what bright Colin Stanley had to say, I wonder how many comments written for this piece have been spurred on by sheer racism. Again, this is Maltese hypocrisy at its worst. We don't give a damn what priess say about our private lives; but then, when it has to do with outward signs that are not portant anyway (not that I, like anyone else here, want to see crucifixes removed!!), we suddenly become more Catholic than the Pope!

Isobel Mcgonigle

Oct 21st 2009, 19:39

Islam is the greatest threat to Christian Europe.
What are the powers that be doing to stop this invasion?
Nothing,not a thing,in fact seems like they are giving the Muslim population a helping hand,to take everything we held so sacred away from us.
An insult to the brave men and women,who fought and died in various world wars,to repel the Nazi invasion,
Is there some greater plan,us the"Great Unwashed" are not aware of?
Meanwhile, Mosques keep popping up ,over the landscape of the U.K. like mushrooms on a damp humid summer morning.
P.S David England,you are right sir,Islam now rules the U.K God help our children,our grandchildren,what a legacy we are leaving them.

D Vella

Oct 21st 2009, 19:18

Dave England.... I too have lived in England for many years and one thing I do know is that in that Country ,one is allowed to protest and hold marches peacefully. It's called free speech.What you are not allowed to do is preach hate or criticise because of race or religion or colour.. For the most part the English live in peace and harmony with peoples from all over the World,notwithstanding the odd incident. You exaggerate.Islam has not taken over the UK. What you have perhaps are a few hot heads,who because of ignorance mainly, and because they are a minority feel threatened and say things which a reasonably intelligent person would think twice before saying. They are the one's that get all the headlines because that sells newspapers. England is a wonderfull melting pot of diversity. If only we could be likewise,instead of all this hate which you are doing your best to spread amongst us.

Rachel Cilia Werdmolder

Oct 21st 2009, 18:44

@Colin Stanley
You read too deeply into what Fr.Bugeja said. I happen to agree with him, that if you need a crucifix in the class/lecture room to remember your faith, then what kind of faith do you have? As a practising Catholic, I barely even notice the crucifix in the rooms. My main intention of being in the room is to listen to my lecturer and learn about the subject. My prayers are spontaneous and I don't feel that I need a crucifix to be able to pray or anything of the sort.

I do however, have reverence for the cross, and what it stands for, but I honestly can't see what difference it makes if it's hanging behind the lecturer or not.

GiovDeMartino@Christian Sciberras

Oct 21st 2009, 18:14

L-ewwel sentenza ma fhimthiex. Jiddispjacini. X'fastidju jtik lilek li jkun hemm Kurcifiss fi klassi f'pajjiz fejn il-maggoranza assoluta huma nsara? Semplicement x'fastidju jtik?

adrian aquilina

Oct 21st 2009, 18:03

there should be no religious symbols of any kind in any public places...have them in your house if you want..

colin stanley

Oct 21st 2009, 17:15

@ FATHER ????????????? bugeja. have you got a grudge against the CATHOLIC FAITH. do you ever hear an imam saying,, that catholics in the arab world, might be offended, when they see grown men marrying, 8 year old girls, for example.why should we always try to please other peoples, who comes here has to abide by our rules, we don't force anybody to come here, they are all free to go to a country that has the same culture as theirs. Fr. Bugeja do you say the CREED. if you do, what does , I believe in oneholy CATHOLIC apostolic church, mean. does the Archbishop agree with what you are saying?

Dave England

Oct 21st 2009, 17:00

@Carmelo Aquilina
I've lived in England for 45 years and you paint a completely different picture of the UK to what I am seeing now.
Everyone from politicians, teachers, radio and tv presenters are now too scared to say anything negative about Islam. If you are a Muslim you can say pretty much anything you want about Christianity and get away with it; you can protest at demonstrations waving banners that say outrageous things without any action from the police. But anyone who even comments on the Koran or the behaviour of Muslims is arrested for inciting religious hatred.
As far as I can see, Islam has already taken over the UK. Careful Malta, you'll be next!

Anton Portelli

Oct 21st 2009, 16:35

@Deo Catania
Dear Sir please take note that there are fellow maltese born an bred in Malta who today are not part of the Catholic Church. Are you suggesting that these also leave the island? Is this the tolerance and love for your neighbour that the Catholic church preaches?

Christian Sciberras

Oct 21st 2009, 16:26

@GiovDeMartino - Mela alura obzoq f'wicc l-ghajn li tixrob minnu.
With all due respect, there's such thing as lesson, and there's such as Mass. Keep them at their respective places, regardless of religion, culture or idiologies.

@Roger Boyle - What's the point of shouting "democracy" when you're ruled by a single tyrant? Same thing applies here, if we are to progress forward, we need to support all ethical and reasonable religions out there. Jesus never preached intolerance, He always taught freedom, how can you Believe when you hate/discriminate against anyone else?

@A. Muscat - Agreed, and to put out the sarcastic part out of me, students don't need church! No Jesus, no nothing! Just safe-sex! Invest in vending machines!


Really people, we're a country financed mostly by tourists, and we claim to be Catholic.
Is that just an adjective? How far does that go?

You realize there's a higher chance that atheists are lead to salvation then you Catholic fundamentalists? Is it possible that you are so *blind*?

Regards,
Christian Sciberras.

anthony borg

Oct 21st 2009, 15:56

Fr. Michael Bugeja would you please explain yourself when you said 'start question their intentions ' about needing a crucifix in every classroom.

A. Muscat

Oct 21st 2009, 15:42

@ Isobel Mcgonigle

‘Islamic’s shraia”

You hate it but the government may need it.

I think it will not be long before many EU Laws will drastically change to fit into Islamic’s shrai,a thanks to the increasing social vices.
European Governments no longer afford to squander money to alleviate alcoholic related problems, out of wed-lock babies – Social benefits to single mothers (by choice) …etc. A case in point is Britain: alcoholic health hazardous and social benefits for single parents (by choice) costing the British government a fortune yearly.

What I mean is, most if not all terms of Islam’s law will be here but in different envelope. You may not hear the most hated words ‘Islamism’s shraia” but you may hear the word Kalabizo instead, however the contents are the same. More or less alike to what happened with Nice-Treaty and Lisbon treaty, the latter is a copy of the former but in different envelope.
By the way, what I am saying was endorsed by the Pope as far as Islamic Banking system are concerned

A. Muscat

Oct 21st 2009, 15:18

Deo Catania
‘, if we manage to get rid of all illegal immigrants and Muslims we would be much better. ‘

Does this apply on Smart City peoples, or any other investment that originated from a Muslim country?

GiovDeMartino@G Borg

Oct 21st 2009, 15:13

SORRY GORG BUT THIS has not happened.

A. Muscat

Oct 21st 2009, 14:54

To Cross or not to Cross?

This should not really be of an issue unless you are a Lowell-listism or an Intellectually bankrupted far-right politicians.

What actually concerns me more, how many of our university students are obedient to Jesus’ teachings as far as sex and adultery are concerned? I guess the answer is 99.9 they don’t.

How many of our university students go to Church?
The surveys shows the number of Church goers is declining while the number of kids out of wed-locks is increasing attend (as a tax payer I am really worried and I hope the Minister in charge find a fix)

J. Borg

Oct 21st 2009, 14:10

Isobel, you are wrong in assuming that some of us Maltese want a politically correct society to "please" non-Maltese (of which you are one). We want these changes, including a more secular Malta, for our own sake and that of our children. Many of us are fed up of living in a country with a minimal separation between church and state.

Franco Farrugia

Oct 21st 2009, 14:02

I shudder at the hypocrisy expressed in these comments. Is our religion made up of only crucifixes hanging on our walls or should there be something more profound in our lives? The crucifix should hang in our heart, not only on the wall and I find it really disgusting to read some cruel comments in favour of the crucifix. Peopl are also describing our country as a 'Roman Catholic country' but this is a fallacy. This is wrong. Malta is Malta and it is just that! Someone repeatedly also speaks about the possible disappearance of Christmas. But Christmas has ALREADY disappeared! It has disappeared from our hearts! It has disappeared from the supposedly simple manner with which we celebrate it! Come on - how many of us really but really go to church on Christmas Eve? And for the right reasons? How many of us try to move away from the wrong, blasphemous and vane manner of celebrating Christmas? So, it is not a certain kind of 'interference' that will remove Christmas from society - but ourselves! We are our own best enemies.

Isobel Mcgonigle

Oct 21st 2009, 13:59

@
Carmelo
Demonstration sir? More like DEMONSTRATIONS,seems like a way of life for the Muslim population of the U,K.
Any way my old son,get your prayer mat ready,because they make no bones about it,dont try to hide it,that Islam will rule Europe in 20 years time,even predict a Muslim M.P for the U.K,
Which direction is Mecca?
Of course the article is not going to say crucifixes removed because it offends other religions,like the U,K you can fool some of the people some of the time,but not all the people all of the time.
Get your head out of the sand sir,look at the rest of Europe,its culture way of life,slowly being eroded ,Sharia law rules ok? or it soon will do

Gorg Borg

Oct 21st 2009, 13:46

Would have been interesting to see the Church's and its organisations' reaction had this happened under a Labour Govt.

Kevin Cassar

Oct 21st 2009, 13:45

I am so depressed when I hear all these comments that show nothing but ignorance. Religion is a personal thing and should remain that way. I have no problem with anyone's beliefs as long as they keep them to themselves and not impose them on others (and by imposing them I also mean display symbols in public places). I am Maltese but reject any form of organized (man made) religion. Having said that I would not complain or offend myself if I went to a friend's house and he had some religious icon. Same thing goes with Churches and other religious places. But in public places there is an issue of discrimination which nobody can ignore any longer. The argument that the majority is catholic is as stupid as the person using it and on the same measure, handicapped people would not be allowed to work because the majority is not handicapped.

C Attard

Oct 21st 2009, 13:22

@ DVella

its not the case of how many of the maltese population are actually religious, or roman catholics, its not even a question of tolerating other religions. its a case of roman catholic being the religion of the state.

people must learn to tolerate the roman catholic religion rather than the roman catholic religion tolerating other religions, which im sure it already does.

Carmelo Aquilina

Oct 21st 2009, 13:11

@ isobel

no, I actually lived in Sheffield, Brighton, Liverpool and London.

I have met people from every country and every religion, and unlike what seems to be the case with you, actually spoke to Muslims. Most of the Muslim families I knew in the UK were well integrated, respectful law abiding and model citizens . That demonstration you link to on youtube is no more representative of Muslims than the IRA is of Catholics, the BNP of the Anglicans or the Klu Klux Klan is of Lutherans.

You still have not addressed the point - the article confirms that crucifixes are not being removed, but why let the facts get in the way of a good rant my dear ?

H.Calleja

Oct 21st 2009, 12:52

Some of the comments below makes one throw up.!! How very funny and stupid some Maltese are becoming! If we had to do what they want we would end up upside down!! This the generation that will lead Malta in the future!

Roger Boyle

Oct 21st 2009, 12:51

@Christian Sciberras
Yes we practice free religion of course. But the official legal religion is RC. Therefore my comments are still valid - why should the chaplain question the RC students, whatever their nationality, when he should actually challenge others?

Sandro Pace

Oct 21st 2009, 12:50

R Spagnol, if it is the European Parliament which is discussing or passing these laws, then they are as good as nothing, fortunately in this case.

When in Rome, do like the Romans. Whether or not it is discrimination, or whether or not Crosses affixed increased spirituality is not the matter. Removal is going to increase resentment, for it is going to be seen as an imposition over the majority (I preceive), who are against such 'removals'.

The RC religion in Malta is privileged over the rest. When abroad, I was never bothered by other's beliefs symbols. I saw them as an Identity symbols and enjoyed them. Neither should Maltese atheists or of other denominations be bothered with them.

Antoine Vella

Oct 21st 2009, 12:46

M.Agius

"If the university is public it belongs to the state, the state should be separated once and for all from the church. "

I assume that the crucifixes have been bought out of public funds so they also belong to the state.

GiovDeMartino

Oct 21st 2009, 12:42

Veru jsewdulek qalbek hafna kummenti hawn taht! Morna l-bahar kompletament! Anki l-istess xnieghat, avolja xnieghat, ituk x'tahseb. Ghandek tghid kulhadd jghajjat ghax ahna ma jindahlilna hadd; ghax ahna bulijiet, ghax ahna ma ghandna bzonn hadd...imbaghad tant u tant vavi lesti jbieghu l-principji kollha taghhom biex joghgbu lill-barrani.

Antoine Vella

Oct 21st 2009, 12:41

Isobel Mcgonigle

"Your culture,way of life,will be slowly eroded away,Human Rights,Do Gooders,......."

These words are a good example of political incorrectness gone mad.

Paul Simon Zammit

Oct 21st 2009, 12:38

Dear DVella, I definitely dont agree with you. Our RC religion is instilled in our constitution, and its a right that a cricifix is placed in every classromm. The day I go to a muslim country, say Dubai, during Ramadan and I will be freely allowed to eat a sandwich in the middle of the street without being harrassed, then I will consider to remove any religious symbols...! This is said from personal experence!

Michael Neville Cassar

Oct 21st 2009, 12:33

Why shouldn’t the crucifixes be shown when ever it can be demonstrated, Malta has been Roman Catholic since ST Paul brought news of Jesus Christ to these islands he is the son of God and God himself. We have been warned, by Jesus Luke 9:13 Line 26 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his glory of the father and of the holy angels. My question is are we systematically manoeuvring to an untie Christ ideology with the excuse of democracy towards others.

R Spagnol

Oct 21st 2009, 12:29

Whether or not we agree with the removal of crucifixes, it is now for the European Union to decide on this issue. The EU has recently approved a motion against religious discrimination. However activists around Europe are still arguing that the presence of religious symbols in public areas such as schools or hospitals should also be considered as religious discrimination. In fact the EU is going to discuss these symbols in November and will decide upon a law against religious discrimination which is planned to be implemented in 2011.

This means that our country may finally eliminate this type of discrimation that has led so many students to be ostracised and bullied throughout the years. How much are we going to stand more students leaving their classes because they are Jehovah witnesses or believe in another religion rather than that of ours?

Lets hope that the Swedish presidency will keep its promise and tackle this issue once and for all. Europe should send a message to the rest of the world, especially to those countries where the concept of equality has become to be seen as farfetched!

This is not a war on Christianity, it's an excellent initiative against discrimination!

Isobel Mcgonigle

Oct 21st 2009, 12:24

@
The person? who lived in the UK?
Where did you live? on the top of Ben Nevis?
Wont argue with you,just click on the video below,typical example nationwide,Britain,kow tow to the Muslims,do nothing to offend them,whilst they take to the streets of Britain,with their various banners,death to all Infidels,Europe your 9/11 is coming etc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2s8wrIkOcg

Christian Sciberras

Oct 21st 2009, 12:19

@Simon Borg - And who's private property is that?

@Roger Boyle - Correction: Malta practices free religion, as dictated by democracy.

@Isobel Mcgonigle - Religious tolerance, that's what it's all about. I don't believe crosses should be removed, but then again, this should accomodate ALL students, not the majority.

@Deo Catania - Define "our". I've always been a Maltese citizen, yet I don't agree with what you so. Practically, this abolishes your notion of "our". Also, as I said, Malta has free religion.

@M Agius - I agree perfectly.

@Byron Camilleri - As a matter of fact, I do. I also imagine students argue and teach each other different religions/concepts (better then you do).
Even more then the most revered Education Department has done these last 10 years.

salvatore morgan

Oct 21st 2009, 11:49

@ Byron Camilleri
...Why not?

Isobel McGonigle

Oct 21st 2009, 11:35

@ Isobel
As someone who has lived inthe UK for 20 years I don't recognise the picture you paint of the UK. Malta is NOT the UK and you are not so much reading between the lines as not even looking at the page. Read the article again, cruxifixes are not being removed.Malta due to its position in the Medis already multiculktural and multiethnic and is the better for it, like the UK has benefited. The world has changed and you'd enjoy it better if you learnt to give people a chnace.

@Deo Catania
Ha sit ever occurred to you that there are Maltese Muslims, Jews, Portestants and atheists ? They have the right to practise their religion as much as you ahve the right to practise yours, except you're not showing Christian love by wanting to expel Muslims. The Inquisition did that in Spain 5000 years ago and it is a stain on the soul of that country. Illegal immigrants may havethe right to asylum, and claiming it does not make them criminals judge peopple on their own merits, as you would have people judge you.

Franco Farrugia

Oct 21st 2009, 11:25

Ah, so when a priest says things which we don't agree about, we try to shoot him down. I know Fr Michael Bugeja and I can describe him by using merely one Italian expression: in gamba! Very open-minded and certainly knows what he is doing.

DVella

Oct 21st 2009, 11:19

@C Zarb

It is not a lack of tolerance toward the R C religion. It is rather tolerance for all religions. If a Catholic symbol is placed in a classroom then it follows that we must also place the star and crescent and the star of david and a hundred and one other religious symbols. Suffice to agree that the State is secular and tolerant of all beliefs,but the State itself does not distinguish between one religion and another. That is the fair and right way forward.

Byron Camilleri

Oct 21st 2009, 11:11

Religious discrimination at its best.

Imagine a class with international students, and everyone gets his own religious symbol to stick on the wall!

Isobel Mcgonigle

Oct 21st 2009, 11:06

@
Mr Cassar
Yes sir,I have read the article,I am not blinkered ,I also can read between the lines?
Sir,how do you think all this Political Correctness gone, mad started in the U,K?

C.Zarb

Oct 21st 2009, 11:05

Personally if I had to 'argue' with the church then I prefer to do it in terms of censorship, divorce, feast (in terms of noise pollution) and contraceptives. Having the crosses removed will prove nothing more then appeasing those who can't tolerate the major religion in our country.

vincenta galea

Oct 21st 2009, 11:01

I am no religious freak, neither am I a Christian fundamentalist, but under the present politico/religious climate prevailing in Europe, I question why we do not have Crucifixes in all the rooms in the University! To me, again because of what we are witnessing, the Crucifix means more than what has been blasphemously termed 'macabre'. It is more than just a figure on a peace of wood!
With due respect, Fr Bugeja, your arguments are leading me to question YOUR intentions !!

C.ZARB

Oct 21st 2009, 10:48

I dont consider myself as a Christian and I believe in the separation between state and church, stating that, what's so wrong in having crosses in hospital/university? If someone doesn't believe in it then they can always turn their face to the other side. This lack of tolerance towards a religion that is part of our culture is amazing. If you want to protest just go to Saudi or Afghanistan where people are still persecuted because of religion. Malta is not one of those states.

Franco Farrugia

Oct 21st 2009, 10:36

I am all in favour of Fr Bugeja's position and I condemn what Mr Boyle says that we are a Roman Catholic country. We are Malta, and full-stop! Neither do we need these foreigners to foment even more hatred towards other religions and narrow-mindedness over the RC Religion!

D Vella

Oct 21st 2009, 10:35

Religious symbols have no place in public buildings. Chapels ,if needed,should be interdominational. That is as it should be,but of course on this Island we do take notice of such niceties. For us, Might is right,in this case the prevailing Religion.It actually makes a mockery of equal rights.

S. Desira

Oct 21st 2009, 10:29

Totally agree with David Aquilina!!!

Simon Borg

Oct 21st 2009, 10:26

I meant public, not private, sorry.

M Agius

Oct 21st 2009, 10:23

If the university is public it belongs to the state, the state should be separated once and for all from the church.

@ Deo Catania, I am Maltese, my parents are I've been baptized and brought up in a Catholic environment, I reject the Catholic faith, and follow something else. With this I wanted to say, that it is not only foreigners who follow another religion but yes there are Maltese too.

Kenneth Cassar

Oct 21st 2009, 10:20

@ Isobel Mcgonigle:

Have you even read the article? If yes, read it again.

victor pulis

Oct 21st 2009, 10:15

This political correctness thing has gotten out of control. I read that in some schools in England the children are forbidden to recite Ba Ba black sheep because of political correctness!!! Should I feel offended if some one mentioned Snow White?! Would obese persons protest at the story of Humpty Dumpty?! Would women feel descriminated at the Our Father? should it be our Parent who art in heaven? These examples may sound silly at the moment but you wait just a little longer.... All for political correctness.

David Aquilina

Oct 21st 2009, 10:09

@Simon Borg

We are a ROMAN CATHOLIC country. We have the right and we SHOULD demonstrate our faith. I would expect to see quotations from the Koran or Stars of David hanging on the walls in Muslim and Jewish countries but I surely do not think that they will allow Roman Catholic Crucifixes to hang on their walls. I would expect the same relative thing in Malta. We are a Roman Catholic country and therefore we should demonstrate our Religion.

Derek Fenech

Oct 21st 2009, 10:02

@Simon Borg
"Keep religion off private property, it doesn't belong there."
ehm private? The University is a public property, financed by public funds which come from the taxes collected from the public. Did you get public?

Deo Catania

Oct 21st 2009, 09:54

@ Simon Borg. Who doesn't feel comfortable with our religion in our own country is free to leave. Why should we always please foreigners? Malta is already overcrowded by us Maltese, if we manage to get rid of all illegal immigrants and Muslims we would be much better.

Isobel Mcgonigle

Oct 21st 2009, 09:49

And so it begins,the writing is on the wall. No more Merry Christmas,Merry Winterfest,dont want to upset our"Colonial Friends"do we?
Your culture,way of life,will be slowly eroded away,Human Rights,Do Gooders,Political Correctness, gone mad

Roger Boyle

Oct 21st 2009, 09:40

Dear Fr Bugeja, I agree with you on all points except the last one. Why should you question the intentions of the students who want a Crucifix when we are a Roman Catholic country? I think you should respect the spirituality of the locals first and foremost and question the ones inclined towards other faiths

Charles Flores

Oct 21st 2009, 09:37

How sensible and down-to-earth of Fr Bugeja. His positive attitude to all this is an example to everyone, for or against the use of religious symbols in class or the lecture-room. The University is lucky to have someone like him as chaplain. There are enough firebrands around to continue stoking a futile controversy.

Simon Borg

Oct 21st 2009, 09:27

Of course Christianity is imposed! It goes from the macabre crucifixes down to the inaugural mass. What's the purpose of these things in the lecture rooms anyway? Would you be happy with quotations from the Koran or Stars of David hanging on the walls? Openness to all religions my foot. Keep religion off private property, it doesn't belong there.