Muscat's apology "generic" - Fenech Adami

Dr Francis Saliba

Oct 28th 2009, 11:53

@Victor Laiviera
God forbid that I should ever agree with your bizarre, illogical conclusions. Adrianus Koster’s “minutes” “signed by the two parties” could only refer to what Koster identifies as “the six points of Mintoff”. These were trashed out during the secret meeting in Rome with Fr Prosper Grech. Koster could not have been alluding to the "nine" proposals that Mintoff carried in his pocket for that meeting. The MLP agreed with this version of six - not nine – points. You can never distort these jointly agreed minutes into a one-sided “interpretation” – if that were the case the two parties, would never have signed them. Mintoff himself would never have recruited the help of Lino Spiteri and l-Orizzont to explain the “six points” to the party faithful.
I wellcome your decision to “consider this exchange closed” because I hate being forced to continue to belabour someone who has been knocked down and out for such a long time.

Victor Laiviera

Oct 27th 2009, 22:02

@ Dr Francis Saliba

You wrote " the “list of points” (on Koster pages 185-186) are only nine proposals UNILATERALLY presented for discussion by Mintoff.”. Which is precisely what I have been saying all along. The proposals put forward by the MLP (which you referred to as "Mintoff’s original nine proposals” where as reproduced (from Koster) in my last post and did not include the point that said that “that “violence, in certain cases to be admissible” “.

It therefore follows that, again as I have been saying all along, this “point” was just an interpretation by the other side.

Now that you have finally admitted what was obvious from the start, I think we can consider this exchange closed.

Dr Francis Saliba

Oct 27th 2009, 15:02

@VictorLaiviera

You are deliberately distorting the facts as clearly given by Koster. What you describe as “list of points” (on Koster pages 185-186) are only nine proposals UNILATERALLY presented for discussion by Mintoff. Evidently they could never have been “signed by BOTH parties”. What was agreed upon, and what was signed by both parties, were the minutes of the deliberations and conclusions that followed during the secret meeting – not Mintoff’s original nine proposals.

On his return to Malta, Mintoff expressed no disagreement with what became known as “the six points of Mintoff” the last of which was that “violence, in certain cases to be admissible” – so much so that Lino Spiteri was commissioned to explain these “six” points to the readers of l-Orizzont. Not only that but, to remove all doubt, during the Mintoff-KMB reign the Maltese nation was given a devastating illustration of what the MLP meant by the admissibility of Mintoff’s political violence, a dismal record that hangs like an albatross round the neck of the MLP/LP to this very day.

Victor Laiviera

Oct 27th 2009, 12:44

@ Dr Francis Saliba (contd.)

The points which were spelled out in the jointly-signed minutes were as follows (Kostner, pp 185/6):

1. Separation of Church and State as in any other modern State.
2. Malta should be a religious neutral State, without giving preference to one religion over any other.
3. Civil marriage should be recognized, and possible also divorce for those who believe in divorce.
4. In State schools, Catholic religious instruction is given only to those who desire to be so instructed.
5. Private schools must agree to State inspection as a condition for being considered on a par with State schools and receiving State subsidies.
6. Social services will be the same for everyone, without favour, particularly as regards illegitimate children, who should not be discriminated against.
7. The Church has to make financial sacrifices and the privilegium fori must be restricted in its applications.
8. State censorship of books and films is to be free from Church intervention.
9. The Church must not meddle in politics.

As you will see, the point yu have been insisting on is nowhere to be seen.

Victor Laiviera

Oct 27th 2009, 12:40

@ Dr Francis Saliba

You are again misquoting Kostner, whether deliberately or not I will leave it up to the readers to judge.

The words "signed by both parties" clearly refer to the list of points which precede them, partly on page 185 and partly on page 186, not to the list which follows which Kostrner says clearly was the rendition by Mgr Galea, the then Vicar General. They were no part of the minutes you mention. (contd.)

Dr Francis Saliba

Oct 27th 2009, 07:17

@VictorLaiviera
I do not find anything amusing about your state of denial. You allege that Lino Spiteri Spiteri did not say what I quoted him as saying even when I identify precisely the pages of his book where readers could check them (91 and 94). You introduce Koster as an authority on the MLP’s six points. I quote this same Koster (on page 185) about the “secret” nature of the meeting between Mintoff and Fr Prosper Grech. You label that as “added spice” and a “frisson”. I quote the MLP six points as they appear in the actual “minutes” of those meetings “signed by the two parties” (page 186) but you dispel them as “the Church’s interpretation”. I quote Lino Spiteri’s account how Mintoff accepted that version to the extent of asking Lino Spiteri to explain them to the confused readers of l-Orizzont (page 94) but what is accepted by Mintoff as a true version of the MLP six points is rejected by you. It is you, not I, that needs to obtain a “better idea of what you are talking about”!

Victor Laiviera

Oct 26th 2009, 22:34

@ Dr Francis Saliba

Finally, something we can agree on. Well said.

Dr Francis Saliba

Oct 26th 2009, 18:43

There is no one more blind than the one who has eyes but keeps them tightly shut so that he would not see. And a lie repeated a thousand times does not become one single truth - it remains a thousand lies.

Victor Laiviera

Oct 26th 2009, 17:01

@ Dr Francis Saliba It is amusing how, with every fresh post, you seem to add a couple of names to the list of those who are supposed to have said what you want them to say. First it was Lino Spiteri, though he never said what you claim he said. Then it was Adrianus Koster, even though he said the opposite of what you claim. Then it was Dom Mintoff, then Attard Kingswell, then The Table – and so on and so forth. Despite all this name dropping, you have yet to produce one shred of solid, referenced proof to back up your position. You are right on just one point. It was Mgr Galea who said what you claim he said when he put forth the Church’s interpretation of what the MLP wanted. It was far from being a true interpretation. For added spice, we now have the frisson of a secret meeting and jointly signed minutes. Reference? Link? You should consult “Malta in the Making – An Eyewitness Account”, 1995, (pages 20/21) by the late Dr Edgar Mizzi, former Attorney General, and you will have a much better idea of what you are talking about.

Dr Francis Saliba

Oct 25th 2009, 17:20

@Victor Laiviera It is not only I that am “alleging that the MLP wanted to include a clause permitting violence in the constitution”. I am only repeating what Dom Mintoff wanted so earnestly that he entrusted Lino Spiteri to explain these MLP “six points” to those MLP readers of l-Orizzont who did not understand them properly. The MLP “six points” emerged as the minutes of a secret meeting between Fr Grech and Dom Mintoff in Rome and signed by both parties. Being secret negotiations, neither you nor I nor anybody else is likely to trace them in official MLP documents but it is highly relevant that no responsible MLP official has ever bothered to question them. (Excuse me, but I know of no grounds why I should consider you a responsible MLP official). You cannot be serious when you insist that your guesswork about the MLP “six points” is correct and that everyone else (A.Koster, Mgr. Galea, The Tablet, L.Spiteri, Attard Kingswell and Mintoff) is either a fool or a knave. And on top of all you expect that you be believed and that I lack credibility when I am in such diverse reliable company!

Victor Laiviera

Oct 25th 2009, 14:08

@ Dr Francis Saliba This argument is going round in circles, mainly because you are unable, or unwilling, to face facts. 1) You are alleging that the MLP wanted to include a clause permitting violence in the constitution. 2) As the one making the allegation, it is up to you to provide proof. This you have failed to do, except for one quote which does not mean what you are trying to make mean, a view supported by a scholar of international repute like Adrianus Koster. 3) Unless and untill you can provide some real proof, such as an offcial MLP document, you do not have a leg to stand on, and I will waste no more of my time and yours.

Evarist Saliba

Oct 25th 2009, 08:24

@Victor Laiviera You persist ignoring the facts. The sixpoints "rendered" by Vicar General Galea were not denied my the MLP. On the contrary, Lino Spiteri was engaged by by MLP Leader Dom Mintoff to explain these points which emerged after months of negotiations, some of them secret. Anyone with any experience in negotiations knows that initial positions evolve. The saintly, humble, non-political and widely respected (by all sides) Mons. Galea was not a spin doctor, and as I have just pointed out, no one challenged his version, then or later, and that includes Koster. It is you, now, who are implying that he was not saying the truth about the position of the MLP at that time, even though the leader of the MLP himself chose Lino Spiteri to defend the six points as expounded by Mons.Galea. There is no one more blind than the person who has eyes but refuses to see.

Dr Francis Saliba

Oct 24th 2009, 20:31

@VictorLaiviera It is pure invention on your part that Lino Spiteri was using the “version given by the political opponents in order to rebut it”. Lino Spiteri’s allotted task was not to rebut anything – it was to push and explain in a clear manner (“li jigu mfissra b’mod li jinftiehem sewwa …) THE SIX POINTS THAT THE LABOUR PARTY WANTED TO BE INCLUDED IN THE NEW CONSTITUTION. Mintoff feared that the people did not know sufficiently what these six points were, (“… in-nies ma kienux jafu bizzejjed x’inhuma s-sitt punti li l-Partit Laburista ried li jidhlu f’Kostituzzjoni gdida”.) Point number six was “Li tkun ammessa l-vjolenza f’certi kasi” - and the MLP put into aggressive practice as soon as it was in a position to do so.

Claire Busuttil

Oct 24th 2009, 20:24

I am really fed up on hearing on the media about who should apologies for what. For god sake you both big parties, stop discussing about this thing, and start trying to work together in a human way, so that maybe, you manage to make Malta a better place for living!!

Neville Zammit

Oct 24th 2009, 19:57

Dr Fenech Adami what about those police (members of the SMU before 1987) who where promoted by your government after 1987?

Dr Francis Saliba

Oct 24th 2009, 18:13

@Victor Laiviera,
You do not want to understand that in his memoir Lino Spiteri is giving in great detail how it was Dom Mintoff, himself through Attard Kingswell, who commissioned him to write a series of six articles to explain to the readers of L-Orizzont the MLP six points, of which the sixth one was identified by Spiteri himself precisely as “Tkun ammessa l-vjolenza f’certi kazi”. I am saying the same thing as Adrianus Koster, the Vicar General Mons Galea, The Tablet, and Lino Spiteri quoting Attard Kingswell and Dom Mintoff himself (not any version given by his political opponents). You, on the other hand are absolutely unable to provide any vestige of proof that all these people are manipulating the truth! It is you who are in desperate need to acquire some credibility! I do not need to recover any credibility that I have never lost!

Victor Laiviera

Oct 24th 2009, 13:37

@ Dr Francis Saliba.

You are still missing the point. First of all, the writings of Lino Spiteri, however authoritative, are not the official voice of the (M)LP.

Secondly, since he was asked to write the articles you mentioned, it makes sense that he would quote the version given by the political opponents, in order to rebut it.

I repeat - see if you can find one official document emanating from the MLP which says that it wanted to include the clause in question in the constitution. That is the only way you can recover your credibility.

Dr Francis Saliba

Oct 24th 2009, 01:34

@VictorLaiviera
I think I can safely presume that it is no use waiting any longer for you to prove that the rendering of the “six points” as given by the Vicar General Mons Galea was “a highly biased interpretation of what Labour wanted”. Now, I would like to satisfy your request that I provide you with some documentary proof that “has to be an MLP document”. Here goes. I draw your attention to Lino Spiteri’s book “Jien u Ghaddej fil-Politika” and on page 91 you will discover his Maltese version of the “Sitt Punti” - the sixth being “ 6. Tkun ammessa l-vjolenza f’certi kazi”. On page 94 you will read how Mintoff himself (and Attard Kingswell) wanted Lino Spiteri to write a series of six articles explaining the six points, one by one. Therefore you should find no difficulty in accepting Lino Spiteri’s rendering as “not emanating from the MLP political adversaries of the time".

Joe Xuereb

Oct 22nd 2009, 18:56

As far as I can remember, the threats to Labour and its supporters (never mind the charges of 'marmalja' and 'riff-raff' by the popolin and endorsed by the clerics) by the Church (Arch. Gonzi at the time if I remember correctly) happened before there was any violence. I believe these threats were directed towards Labour (the Party) and its supporters because many opponents were against Mintoff's proposal to integrate the country with Britain which would have introduced - gasp! horror! - divorce in Malta. Dom Mintoff may also have said (most probably did) that he wanted a separation between Church and State. This 'warranted' the threats. And caused the angst and the abyss between the different factions, the Maltese malaise, the Maltese cancre. I think it is about time this proposition was revisited. And this time round, no threats. Please! We are in Europe now. It would be, after all, all of half a century after the initial audacious suggestion. And about time too!!

Dr Francis Saliba

Oct 22nd 2009, 14:55

@VictorLaiviera
No matter how often one reads Koster’s book, one will never find any word there, or anywhere else, to support your false allegation that this version of the “six points” was a “ highly biased interpretation of what Labour wanted”. When Koster referred to the "rendering" of the six points as given by the Vicar General Mons. Galea, he was in no way insinuating that it was a false rendering, or a biased interpretation. He confirmed that "rendering" by comparing it with the version given by The Tablet. Consult any good dictionary conscientiously for the correct meaning of the verb “to render”. You are inventing the allegation that the version supplied to Koster was “a highly biased interpretation”. You have acknowledged the principle that the onus of proof rests with the one who makes the accusation. YOU have to prove it!

Dr Francis Saliba

Oct 22nd 2009, 13:59

@Kwillie
The trouble is that your quaint oblique "apology in its own way” in 1992 by Dr Sant “getting rid himself of influential figures of the 1971-1987 govt” is definitely being undone by Joseph Muscat's recall of some of those same MLP notables.

Dr Francis Saliba

Oct 22nd 2009, 12:20

@VictorLaiviera
I missed no point. You missed my plain and simple point. If you or anybody else has any grounds for doubting that the Vicar General 's "rendering" was anything else but the truth please quote it. If you don't , then the Vicar General's rendering must be assumed to be correct in view of Mintoff's repeated threats to "govern from the streets".

Victor Laiviera

Oct 22nd 2009, 11:12

@ Mr Evarist Saliba

Quoting Adrianus Koster agains, therse are the points which the MLP was proposing:

1. Separation of Church and State as in any other modern State.
2. Malta should be a religious neutral State, without giving preference to one religion over any other.
3. Civil marriage should be recognized, and possible also divorce for those who believe in divorce.
4. In State schools, Catholic religious instruction is given only to those who desire to be so instructed.
5. Private schools must agree to State inspection as a condition for being considered on a par with State schools and receiving State subsidies.
6. Social services will be the same for everyone, without favour, particularly as regards illegitimate children, who should not be discriminated against.
7. The Church has to make financial sacrifices and the privilegium fori must be restricted in its applications.
8. State censorship of books and films is to be free from Church intervention.
9. The Church must not meddle in politics.


The claim that the MLP wanted to include a clause in the constitution that said that violence was acceptable was simply a very biased rendering by the then Vicar General.

Victor Laiviera

Oct 22nd 2009, 07:45

@ Dr Francis Saliba

You missed the point. The "rendering" was done neither by Koster nor by me. It was done by the Vicar General of the time who gave a highly biased interpretation of what Labour wanted.

There is a principle, of which I thought you would be aware of, that the onus of proof lies on the accuser. If you are saying that Labour wanted to include tolerance of violence in the constitution, it is up to you to prove it. See if you can fond one document that says so. But it has to be an MLP document, not one emanating from its political adversaries of the time.

Victor Laiviera

Oct 21st 2009, 20:07

@Dr Francis Saliba.

May I suggest that you read the extract from Koster another couple of times befoe commenting. Hopefully, you will understsnd it this time.

K Willie

Oct 21st 2009, 19:51

@ Dr Francis Saliba-Violence in the 70's and 80's however terrible it was has got nothing to do with the millions killed by Nazi Germany in WW2. Labour apologised in its own way for such violence when it rid itself of violent elements in 1992 and encouraged police to prosecute against those very few who caused some minor incidents after the 1996 victory. Dr Sant to his credit rid himself of influential figures of the 1971-87 govt only to be vilified by your PN for splitting the party in doing so.

Evarist Saliba

Oct 21st 2009, 19:03

@ Victor Laiviera
Mr reference to the sixth point that MLP wanted to include in Malta's constitution quoted Lino Spiteri, and therefore your appeal for a bit more faithfulness to the truth, if it has any validity at all in this case, should have been addressed to him. Having said that, I hasten to add that my memory supports what Lino Spiteri wrote, which is in no way contradicted by what you quote from Adrianus Koster.
A bit more faithfulness to the truth is required from those who play about with facts that do not please them.

A. Mizzi

Oct 21st 2009, 18:55

www.maltapolitics.com

Dr Francis Saliba

Oct 21st 2009, 17:08

@Victor Laiviera
You have only confirmed that even an independent historian like Adrianus Koster quotes the “rendering” of the “sixth point” as “Violence in certain cases, to be admissible”. Your ploy of typing “rendering” in upper case does not transform Koster’s word “rendering” into a “false rendering” as you seem to imply. The fact that the six points were revealed to the public in 1963 proves nothing one way or another. If you have any evidence in support of a different rendering, please produce it! Adrianus Koster has not produced any – and neither has anybody else and that includes you up to now!

Dr Francis Saliba

Oct 21st 2009, 16:31

@KevinWillie
No, I do not expect that Dr Muscat would ever be allowed by the LP bigwigs to make the expected decent and unequivocal apology for the MLP violence – he is no Willy Brandt. I have already given the reason why not in my comment @ Brian Hansford. Irrespective of Muscat’s age at that time he is the present leader of the MLP/LP and it is his responsibility to make the LP an acceptable alternative government.

Antoine Vella

Oct 21st 2009, 12:50

c. bartolo

"i found out what "marmalja" means, when supporters took to the streets after the 1987 election..."

Before 1987 you must have been living under a stone then.

Josef Muscat

Oct 21st 2009, 11:15

@ C. Bartolo - int bis-serjeta' fittixt xi tfisser Marmalja u sibt dik l-ispjegazzjoni ! Mela naghtik parir li terga tfittex sew jew issaqsi lil xi espert / esperta tal-Malti. Konsulenta ghadha friska maghkhom dejjem spjegat ezatt xi tfisser. Staqsi lilha, siehbi !!!! Personalment, dejjem accettajt l-ispjega tal-kelma MARMALJA kif dejjem taghta hi.

Victor Laiviera

Oct 21st 2009, 10:47

@ Mr Evarist Saliba.

It is not true that "that one of the six points that MLP wanted to include in our constitution was that violence was excusable in certain instances". That was simply the highly biased interpretation given to the MLP's position by certain Church authorities.

A bit more faithfuklness to the truth, please.

In fact, Adrianus Koster ("Prelates and Politicians in Malta" Netherlands,) says (my emphasis) :

It was not until 22 May, 1963 that the Maltese Vicar General Mgr. Galea gave HIS RENDERING of Mintoff's proposals as:

1. Separation of Church and State.
2. The State to be secularist, with equal treatment of religions.
3. Recognition of civil marriage.
4. Privilegium Fori to be limited.
5. Censorship of films and book to be carried out exclusively by the Government without allowance for Church interference.
6. Violence in certain cases, to be admissible.

Ever since, these proposals have been known as "the six points of Mintoff".

c bartolo

Oct 21st 2009, 09:42

i found out what "marmalja" means, when supporters took to the streets after the 1987 election ... and further confirmed it yet again in 1992..... 1996 on the other hand confirmed that there is another side of the coin.....

Antoine Vella

Oct 20th 2009, 15:24

Brian Hansford
"Antoine You wrote we are talking of specific incidents who is we ? "

"We" i.e. the people commenting on this page. Surely that is obvious. The topic of the story is Black Monday, when Labour supporters showed everyone what 'marmalja' means.

Evarist Saliba

Oct 20th 2009, 14:26

Those who absolve the MLP and its governments, from the violence that prevailed in Malta as witnessed on Black Monday, seem to forget that one of the six points that MLP wanted to include in our constitution was that violence was excusable in certain instances. In one of his books, Lino Spiteri recounts how he was recruited to write articles to defend these points. This was the mind-set of the MLP leadership which inspired a significant element of its followers, inclding the aristocracy of the workers, to go on periodical rampages against opponents. Dissident elements on this aspect within the party, and there must have been some, became accomplices by their silence. Let's not forget that Eddie Fenech Adami's residence was practically next door to the Birkirkara police station. The Times of Malta was inadequately protected by a few policemen who left the scene when needed. The Curia which was ransacked faces the Police headquarters. In all instances the rioters were allowed a free hand, and none were prosecuted. Refrains of  "Je ne regrette rein", and earthquakes which bring back close to the leadership persons who held high offices when this violence prevailed are not encouraging.

Josef Muscat

Oct 20th 2009, 07:28

@ Brian Hansford - dear Brian, It was Hitler and his men that did the crimes. Of course, not all German Nationals should be condemned. But, whoever was part of it then, is still being condemned today. That is what is wrong with your party. I will never condemn Labour and Labourites for ever. But I still see members of the then MLP ( 1979 - 1987 ) prominent in your party today and being proposed for a brighter ( !!! ) future. And that is a BIG problem, mostly for you but also to everybody. YOU HAVE TO WORK HARDER, BRIAN !

Dr Francis Saliba

Oct 20th 2009, 04:00

@MichaelCatania
Your slip is showing! Please note that after the Nuremberg trials of Nazi war criminals it is no longer an admissible defense that the criminal was only “obeying government orders”. That is one very good reason why I would not jump on to the Mintoff bandwagon and why I did not become an accomplice in any police criminal activity simply to "serve and obey government orders".. God help us if your mentality is fairly representative of the mentality of the new LP. I hope that Joseph Muscat will categorically denounce it, otherwise there would be no stronger argument for rejecting the LP at the next polls!!

Brian Hansford

Oct 20th 2009, 01:49

@Antoine Vella i repeat whoever instigated violence was wrong. Antoine You wrote we are talking of specific incidents who is we ? There is nothing specific when the word Violence is used , i condemn any form of violence both psychologically and physically. Don't you ?
@ Francis Saliba sorry to say you are not looking forward at all.
we are a small nation and yet some still think that divide to rule is the best policy. what you are trying very hard to do is re-unite the diehards hoping they will not talk of the current situation in Malta.
I would like to talk about how are we going to unite as a country and get out of this recession.i would like us all here to discuss and bring out ideas how to overcome our current problems to beat the financial crisis.
If our economy recovers we as a nation will celebrate together whatever the political beliefs may be..
lets look forward, think positive, work as one, unite to give our children hope and teach them that united we live divided we fall.

Joe Xuereb

Oct 20th 2009, 00:54

Il-Knisja dahlet fejn ma kienx lokha. Dak iz-zmien, u ghadha tindahal. Min 'sofra' taht il-Labour Alla habbu. Ghallanqas ma kienx mhedded b'interdetti w dfin fil-mizbla. Hafna kienu li sofrew b'dan it-theddid. Nixtieq inkun naf x'effett ikollu theddid ta' dan it-tip li kellu jigri llum. Ma nahsibx li jkun hemm tant li jhabblu rashom. Mhux illum il-gurnata. In-nies tghallmu u min jipprova jghaddihom minn ghajn il-labra ma tantx isehh fil-hsieb tieghu.
Iz-zerriegha ta' dak li gara' kellu il-gherq minn snin qabel. Meta l-Laburisti kienu jqisuhom 'riff-raff' u l-korp(?) tat-tfal, il-Pijunieri, tant iehor. Kien hemm divizzjoni tal-klassi. Kien hemm minn kien jivvota ghall-PN ghax ma riedx ikollu x'jaqsam mar-'riff-raff'. Nies li riedu joghlew fis-socjeta'. Minghalihom. Snobizmu la Maltija insomma. Ma tnskantax jekk din l-attitudni ghadha tezisti. Idejat politici li lokhom hu l-bitha ta' l-iskola primarja. Ghax Malta qajl qajl tinbidel. Forsi hemm xi haga fl-arja. Jew fl-ilma.

Kevin Willie

Oct 19th 2009, 22:25

@ Dr Francis Saliba-Do you expect Dr Muscat to get down on his hands and knees and apologise for things that happened when he was a 5 yr old boy??? Well in that case I would expect Dr Gonzi too to get down on hands and knees and apologise for what his late uncle did to Labour supporters in the 60's when he(Dr Gonzi) was a teenager.
@ Antoine vella et al-You seem to forget what happened after the 1987 election victory. You're pretty much selective

Peter Bonnici

Oct 19th 2009, 21:31

@ M borg. You're not keeping up. Read my bit to D Scerri below, and you will see that by the time EFA became leader, the political, social, and economic situation had already reached a point of no return.

Antoine Vella

Oct 19th 2009, 20:34

Brian Hansford ".., i repeat whoever used violence is wrong, ..." What do you mean "whoever"? We are talking of specific incidents: Labour thugs openly carrying out acts of savage violence which to this day remain the worst and most serious that Malta ever witnessed. As long as you continue to deny it we shall continue to talk about it.

Antoine Vella

Oct 19th 2009, 19:54

Charles Flores You were head of Xandir Malta's News Division in 1979 which is what I wrote. Being part of the DOI during the Mintoff years, however, is yet another reason to apologise to the Maltese people.

m borg

Oct 19th 2009, 19:40

Did EFA apologise to Dr Alfred Sant after he lied about him and was even found guilty in court and fined Lm2000 for character assasination. EFA should be the last to ask for apologies seeing that since him becoming leader of the PN he polarized Malta more than ever before.

michael catania

Oct 19th 2009, 19:12

There is a saying that says. "if you repeat a story often enough then you end up believing it and become hypnotised by it , so I say to and advice these conservatives to dehypnotise yourselves and return to the land of living. @ dr. Saliba I think you should be thankful you were not dismissed from the Goverment employment because by your tone of comments you do not seem to want to serve and obey your goverment orders. In other words you seemed to be putting political affilation before your duty to obey your political masters and as such you made yourself untrustworthy.

Dr Francis Saliba

Oct 19th 2009, 17:22

@BrianHansford I AM LOOKING FORWARD, and I detect only bad omens that the LP could revert to the old methods of the MLP given half a chance. The reasons are: a) it has not got the spunk to dissociate itself categorically from its past record of state-sponsored violence without equivocation. b) It has not got the courage to shut up those among its ranks who are defending and making excuses for that past. c) It is urging the electorate to "forget" the terrible lessons of our recent history and this would pave the way for a repetition of those “mistakes”. d) It is calling from retirement those who were responsible for that violent era and installing them in positions of power and trust. e) Whether those violent methods will be adopted again can only be known after the LP is elected to power . By that time it will be too late to do anything about it. Brandt went publicly down on his knees to apologize for the wrong doings of the German Nazis even though he was an anti-Nazi himself. Joseph Muscat only offers vague quibbling that only LP diehards interpret as a clear apology!

chris reiff

Oct 19th 2009, 11:13

@Ian Xuereb:

yes I am sure that legalising bird trapping/torture is more important than the near deaths of humans and our Prime Minister

J.Scicluna - Rabat

Oct 19th 2009, 11:12

Presidents (past and present) should be above local politics...period.

There is only one thing that comes to mind with EFA coming out of his retirement; and that is to give a much-needed helping hand to the beleaguered PM! This Government is as weak as a two-legged chair and the sooner the PM admits this and rectifies the situation, the better for the whole of Malta.

Shape up or ship out.

J Brincat

Oct 19th 2009, 09:39

Has Dr Fenech Adami forgotton his long time warcry "Inkunu ahwa ilkoll"?

He should continue to enjoy his retirment and not enter anymore into the political frey.

Mario Genovese

Oct 19th 2009, 08:55

whenever PN sees that the tide is changing, it unwraps the past again!!!!

Charles Flores

Oct 19th 2009, 08:50

@Antoine Vella
Two important points for your kind attention:
1. I never headed Xandir Malta
2. When those particular cases occurred I was a DOI employee, i..e. fairly away from Gwardamanga or anything to do with broadcasting.
Now that you have this information, is an apology forthcoming, or do we just do the mud-slinging?

Antoine Vella

Oct 19th 2009, 07:58

Charles Zammit

"at least dr muscat offered an apology."

No he didn't. Quote it if you can.

Brian Hansford

Oct 18th 2009, 23:40

@Dr Francis Saliba i strongly suggest that you look forward not backwards , again this is nothing more than a smoke screen to divert from the current situation we are living in, i repeat whoever used violence is wrong, being physical or physiological violence is wrong no question about that.
We all agree that Hitler was condemned for the crimes he committed does this mean all the German nationals should be condemned? No they shouldn't .

Peter Bonnici

Oct 18th 2009, 23:03

@ D Scerri. By the time Fenech Adami was elected leader, labour thugs had already burned down parctically every PN club between 71 and 77. The Labour Govt had already caused a run on a private bank and taken it over, had gobbled up cable and wireless and confiscated it's workers pension funds, had cancelled Independence day as a national holiday and had police violently disrupt peacful demos with the help of the faithful marmalja laburista, Had locked out doctors from hospital and suspended them. So what incitement should ghe answer for? We had Mintoff and his fellow cabinet ministers doing enough incitement, and it was rammed daily down our throats on national telly.
Its people like you who force me to vote PN every time I'm in doubt.

charles zammit

Oct 18th 2009, 22:00

at least dr muscat offered an apology. what did you do dr fenech adami when you challanged labour supporters...fejn huma il laburisti.....

Antoine Vella

Oct 18th 2009, 19:52

Christopher Micallef

"...it takes two to tango..."

But it only takes one (side) to break in, ransack, beat up people and burn down a building.

So you think this is about ballroom dancing. No wonder Laburisti haven't got a clue.

GiovDeMartino

Oct 18th 2009, 19:42

Tinnutaw kif joqomsu malli ssemmilhom il-passat? U ghandhom ragun tafux.. Ragun biex ibieghu!

Dr Francis Saliba

Oct 18th 2009, 19:22

@KevinWillie
I would not presume to apportion responsibility for the crimes in question by police rank. I can only assure you that the fish stank from its head and subordinate ranks had to conform or else …! As the Police Medical Officer many anguished policemen, from Commissioner down to constable, confided in me many with tears in their eyes. I was an eyewitness to some of the abuses myself and I duly reported them to my seniors up to whoever was Commissioner of Police at the time. My reward was the burning of my office door inside the Police GHQ itself and a criminal failed attempt to frame me by perjured evidence. When that failed, I was forced to retire “on grounds of public interest”! That was may own fate at the hands of the Minister responsible for the Police. I held a rank equivalent to that of a Police Superintendent. Do you expect me to sit in judgment over weaker members of the force who regretfully saw nothing, heard nothing and said nothing so as not to lose their job?

Ian Xuereb

Oct 18th 2009, 18:05

Jiena nahseb li il-president emeritus Dr Eddie Fenech Adami ghandu jitlob hu apologija ghal mod kif irnexxielu jidhaq bina in-nassaba qabel ir-referenedum tal-2003. U dwar dak li gara 30 sena ilu ma narax li hemm ghalfejn nergu noqodu naqalghu il-hama. Hemm hafna aktar affarijiet bzonjuzi u urgenti fil-prezent x'niddiskutu.

joe scerri

Oct 18th 2009, 17:44

To all those (PL / PN) still arguing about the past, perhaps its better if you start worrying about the future:

"Water and electricity rates may be rising soon"

D. Scerri

Oct 18th 2009, 17:22

Fenech Adami should answer for all the incitement which took place at the time causing a disturbance in all sectors of the society. He never did apologize and I feel no one should apologize to him.

Christopher Micallef

Oct 18th 2009, 16:56

I begin by condemning what happened during Black Monday, those events should never be allowed to take place again. I have not lived during those times, so I have only read and heard about events occurring during those times.

A very important saying which is easily forgotten is that it takes two to tango. One should keep in mind the significant rift that emerged between the PL and the Curia during the 60s culminating in the deplorable decision by the Curia to treat Labourites as some low class citizens using the Interdett and not even allowing appropriate burial. Many members of the Curia were outright full-blown PN supporters and the PN was more than happy with their following and/or membership of the party.

Turning to the 1981 general election, the result was weird in that the PL won the election with a majority of seats but a minority of votes. The PN was right to start the campaign to reform democracy. However, it was wrong in trying to destabilise the government and acting provocatively for a whole 5 years! After all, the exising legislation stated that a majority of seats was needed to govern. PL was the legitimate winner.

Kevin Willie

Oct 18th 2009, 16:45

@ Dr F Saliba-May I Ask whether the police officials(the same who messed it up for years on end) who were given various promotions were involved or not with this tampering of evidence??? As regards thugs I am pretty sure that with all eye witnesses back then no amount of tampering with evidence could have hindered justice to be served

Neville Zammit

Oct 18th 2009, 16:35

Suppost bhala President emeritus, Fenech Adami ghandu jkun hafna aktar bilancjat! Ma nistax nifhem kif Fenech Adami qed jerga jidhol fil-kontroverjsi politici.

Ma nistax nifhem anqas x inhi r-rilevanza li qed noholqu l-fjask kollu fuq grajjiet li sehhew 30 sena ilu meta llum ghandna bizzejjed problemi ma xiex niddealjaw!

Jew forsi hawn min irid jaljena lill-poplu?

D Attard

Oct 18th 2009, 16:32

@Antoine Vella
I am not sure whether I understood your comment correctly, are you suggesting that Charles Flores should have been imprisoned? Please explain if I misunderstood.

Mark Galea

Oct 18th 2009, 14:47

Maybe we should put to trial the 'leaders' of that period. SURELY they know a lot more.

Antoine Vella

Oct 18th 2009, 14:38

Charles Flores

I don't know if you are the same person who headed Xandir Malta's (we knew it by another name) New Division in 1979. If you are then you are also called upon to apologise for having broadcast the false news that the MLP club in B'Kara had been attacked by Nationalists when you knew that the very opposite had happened. The station also reported that there had been "some incidents and a small fire" in Valletta.

I never agreed with Eddie Fenech Adami's conciliatory attitude towards such people who should have spent many years in prison.

Dr Francis Saliba

Oct 18th 2009, 12:57

@KevinWillie
I have answered that question umpteen times. Here is one more time,
"Police tampering with the evidence" is not any personal theory. It is a court finding in the case of the proven frame up of Peter Paul Busuttil. I do not know if Eddie Fenech Adami, before he took office, realized the full extent of the tampering - I was not under any illusion that it would be very extensive indeed. In fact it proved to be so extensive and so thorough that although the identity of culprits was known or seriously suspected no one could prove it up to the standard required in a criminal court of law, i.e. "beyond any reasonable doubt. Not after the state police had deliberately messed it up for months and years.

michael catania

Oct 18th 2009, 12:43

May I be permitted space to point out to the readers and writers of the bloggs on under listed the heading "Muscat's apology "generic - Fenech Adami" that bloggs attributed to M. CATANIA SHOULD UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES be attributed to me whose name is Michael Catania. As it is comments I have made regarding this article were (censored)not printed. If persons wish to hide behind initials - it their problem.

Peter Bonnici

Oct 18th 2009, 12:22

Th signals from the labour camp are typically confusing and contradictory. Some here argue that the labour government at the time had no control of the socialist gangs that destroyed everything in their path, and therefore no apology is required from the MLP. Others say that the apology went far enough, therefore implicitly admitting liability. Labour leader on the other hand acknowedged failure/apologised , yet shifted the blame on those who had used his party, and then dumped it.Therefore in effect its no apology at all. Yet before all this, many years ago, Alfred Sant made it a point to rid the party of its violent element, and he seemed to have managed. Therefore according to Sant, the violence came from within the party. So clearly it was the party that used the thugs and then dumped them, and not the other way around.
So now, Joseph Muscat now owes an apology to the faithful socialist thugs for having been used then dumped by their party, and he can blame it on Alfred Sant.

Anthony Mizzi

Oct 18th 2009, 12:08

What about an apology from Fenech Adami on the financial state of affairs he left the island in where, to put it bluntly , after selling off the country's assets and squandering funds left by previous Labour administrations, left nothing for a rainy day?

He managed to turn surpluses into deficits , with his predecessors not even having enough funds to refund back illegally procured VAT on car registration tax, increases in utility bills even when cost of oil was at its lowest ebb, and the current situation not being as sound as always professed to be?

Josef Muscat

Oct 18th 2009, 11:17

@ Joe Grima - you describe Gonzi as ' a weak PM who doesn't have the guts to throw out dead weight ministers .' In December 1981 SUPER DOM suddenly ( ! ? ) seemed to become short of guts to throw out all MLP Ministers and MP'S and do the most honourable thing : CALL ANOTHER GENERAL ELECTION, after changing the rules. So, back then, the PM was even more weak. It was weakness at its peak !

Dr Francis Saliba

Oct 18th 2009, 11:15

“Min m’ghandux dnub jitfa’ l-ewwel gebla” is rapidly developing into the latest PL buzz word. Translation: We MLP devotees admit we have sinned but we expect to be judged by God and by God alone. Fair enough, but we are not talking about any judgment. We are talking about the right of the direct victims of that state-sponsored MLP violence, and the right of every Maltese citizen who remains traumatized by it, to expect an unconditional apology without any hedging and without any “ifs” or “buts”. The MLP/LP has every right to rise to that legitimate expectation or to refuse it – and to face the consequences at election time.

Jeremy J Camilleri

Oct 18th 2009, 11:14

Dr Francis Saliba....the need for self defence has not been present ever since Dr. Fenech Adami was elected and in a 'reconciliatory' gesture promoted a number of officials who had positions within the Police force in those dark days.

Kevin Willie

Oct 18th 2009, 11:04

@everyone-Black Monday is indeed a dark page in Labour's history and there should be no excuses at all. Labour Govt at the time had the power to prevent such things from happening. There's no point mentioning the 60's and whatever happened to provoke such incidents. Having said that anyone who doubts whether Labour has indeed itself since Black Monday has only got to look at what happened after the 1996 victory & change in govt...no incident at all!
@Dr F Saliba- Given your reasoning..how come a prominent politician had promised that upon being elected he would name the criminals who killed Karen Grech and Raymond Caruana...Wasn't he aware of your theory re tampering with evidence??? And how come after 22yrs of PN govt non of the MLP known thugs were ever brought to Justice??

Dr Francis Saliba

Oct 18th 2009, 10:50

“Min m’ghandux dnub jitfa’ l-ewwel gebla” is rapidly developing into the latest PL buzz word. Translation: We MLP devotees admit that our party has sinned but we expect to be judged by God and by God alone. Fair enough, but we are not talking about any judgment. We are talking about the right of the direct victims of that state-sponsored MLP violence, and the right of every Maltese citizen who remains traumatized by it, to expect an unconditional apology without any hedging and without any “ifs” or “buts”. The MLP/LP has every right to rise to that legitimate expectation or to refuse it – and to face the consequences at election time.

Charles Flores

Oct 18th 2009, 10:48

Oh God, what a sick nation we have become.

@A. Zahra
What don't you mention names, especially since you are expecting an apology? The person who imposed that sad case of censorship is no longer with us and I feel we should deal with the departed in a respectful manner, no matter how much we may have disagreed with them in life. Few can speak about it with authority. I can, because I was moved from the News Department management post to another for protesting against it and demanding an immediate transfer.

Joe E. Galea

Oct 18th 2009, 09:45

@Antoine Vella: Using EFA's words you are being generic and making a partisan sweeping statement. The majority of the labourites including me condemn any violence whatsoever the reason. Th PL proved itself thanks to A. Sant that he clensed the party from these bad elements. Has any event like this happened even when there was a PL governemnt (though short)? Times change, people change and I think the PL has learned its lessons well and have matured to a progressive party which looks forward to offer this country a true government alternative. So keeping on pettying on a dreadful event which happened 30 years ago, is just a pathetic way to try to alienate people and try to rekindle some fervor amongst the lost PN sheep. Grow up!!

EFA should give us many apologies and never did. So does he expect JM to kneel down and beg him? ....as if!!!

Dr Francis Saliba

Oct 18th 2009, 08:49

@JeremyJCamilleri
Being a member of a "Nationalist party is supposedly based on Roman Catholic principles" does not mean forfeiting the right to legitimate self defence from state-sponsored violence such as arson, murder and ransacking of the Curia and private residences.

Dr Francis Saliba

Oct 18th 2009, 08:33

@DenisCatania
You omitted to say that the Mississippi case was solved eventually with the aid of a criminal, acting on behalf of the FBI, shoving a revolver into the mouth of an accomplice to force him to reveal where the corpses of three murdered civil rights workers had been buried. Those methods are not acceptable to me or to the PN although there is proof that they had been in vogue previously (vide Nardu Debono’s case).

joanna farrugia

Oct 18th 2009, 06:56

can pls the times mention also the attack on dom mintoff offices of 20yrs ago too ? imbasta jghajjtu ahna poplu wiehed!!!

Dr Francis Saliba

Oct 18th 2009, 04:01

@MFarrugia,
And I am certain that Eddie Fenech Adami will continue to consider that "apology" as too generic until Joseph Muscat will be allowed by the LP bigwigs to offer a more convincing aplogy.

Dr Francis Saliba

Oct 18th 2009, 03:44

@DenisCatania
Allow me to demolish your comment:
I do not need your advice to “take my evidence to the police to open up this cold case”. As I have stated already in my comment I did this as soon as it was safe to do so, that is as soon as the MLP gave way to the PN. By that time the MLP police had had ample time to tamper with the evidence as was their wont – vide the proven frame up of Raymond Busuttil. I imagine that, in this respect, the police in Mississipi differ somewhat from the Malta police of the Mintoff-KMB years.
I do not believe for a moment that “the PN want(s) to convict anyone”. It wants the truth to come out according to law but the Mintoff-KMB police had ample time in which to prevent this by “cooking” the evidence! That is the reason why “Cold cases are being solved all over the world” – but not in Malta after the Mintoff & KMB years.
That should stop your “wonder”, but of course it won’t. Try taking off your blinkers first.

M.Borg

Oct 18th 2009, 02:54

EFA - Min mhux hati, jitfa l-ewwel gebla! suppost taf xtghid il bibja meta il-pn haga wahda mal-knisja...!! tiftakar id-dnub il mejjet? ...

Robert Attard

Oct 18th 2009, 02:16

Its Fenech Adami's turn to offer an apology to the maltese citizens for the presidential pardon he offered to a known criminal!! In malta 'la legge non e uguale per tutti!!!'

Tony Scott

Oct 17th 2009, 23:39

@Joe Grima. Prosit I agree totally with you.
@EFA. You put yourself as President of Malta. So you should act as one that is to Unite the Maltese people. There is enough hatred going on. And in here it is showing more than ever. Of course I deplore what happened to you and your family and others. I showed you support in the past. BECAUSE I AM AGAINST ANY KIND OF POLITICAL VIOLENCE. But likewise I deplore the fact that also You and your party for ANY POLITICAL VIOLENCE YOU MAY HAVE COMMITTED. WILL YOU APOLOGISE? no right? I did expect you when you were PM of Malta to take justice against those who killed yes Raymond Caruana (you did mention names publicly) and Karen Grech. I honestly ask you give an APOLOGY also like what J M did.
WITH ALL THIS HATRED GOING ON, WE ARE DOOMED
BTW Stopped voting ages ago. Someone said it:Min hu bla htija jitfa l-ewwel gebla

Antoine Vella

Oct 17th 2009, 22:06

If anybody wonders why, for so many years, the MLP has been considered unfit to govern should read the comments on this page.

Those who are writing to justify or somehow play down the systematic violence of the seventies and eighties are the reason why almost everybody agrees that the MLP has not changed.

If PL thugs were to burn down The Times offices again this year, various PL fanatics the writing here would find some reason to justify the arson.

m farrugia

Oct 17th 2009, 22:05

Take it or leave it Dr Eddie Fenech Adami. Dr Muscat offerd you an apology already.

Denis Catania

Oct 17th 2009, 21:20

@Dr Francis Saliba: The year was 1964 in Mississippi when a church was burned down by a member of the KKK, just a few years ago man was arrested and convicted. If you have evidence, you should take it to the police and open up this cold case as I believe this case is as hot today as it was in 1979. As long as their is no statue of limitations on arsons in Malta. Another question is does the PN want to convict anyone, another question that needs to be answered is WHY the PN doesn't want to solve this case. Something very fishy about this case. Cold cases are being solved all over the world. Why not in Malta, when strong evidence is there. I could only wonder.

J.Camilleri

Oct 17th 2009, 20:52

Times of malta should also bring up the subject during the 1565 great seige as well and makes us hate even more the turks ... This is leading nowhere but simply adding hatred and alienate the people when there's a lot to worry about to make things right on this island. Stop living in a timezone and move on. If you are all still moaning about the political past this all reflects on how boring and negative you are. No wonder we are stuck like some third world country. Look at the bright side of life and move on.

Christian Mifsud

Oct 17th 2009, 20:34

Min hu bla htija jitfa l-ewwel gebla

c vella

Oct 17th 2009, 20:29

I think Dr. Ediie Fenech Adami is being quite sour as well in his comments on Joseph`s Muscat apology. Joseph Muscat was quite a man when he admitted and declared a public apology for all those serious events. But let us not forget as well that during those days a lot more has happened and Dr. Fenech Adami has promised us that when in power he would bring the people responsible, to justice. Unfortunately, this promise, as we all know, never materialised and Dr. Fenech Adami had more than enough time to keep it. For this fact do you think that even he (EFA) owes an apology to Maltese citizens who are still eager to know the truth and bring those culprits to justice????
Lets be more open minded and remember those facts simply not to live them once again. It does not make any sense to bring them back alive just to score points!!

M. Catania

Oct 17th 2009, 20:19

@Albert Gauci Cunningham

Joseph Muscat will solve all the problems as soon as he becomes Prime Minister. He has the solution to everything!!! I am dying to see him in office. Mill-kliem ghal fatti hemm bahar jikkumbatti!!! I am sure that he will swallow half the things that he is saying right now!!!!!

M. Catania

Oct 17th 2009, 20:17

@Godfrey Grima

You were one of the first to endorse Joseph Muscat way back in 2004 for MEP and for MLP leader So you tend to be a bit subjective, ain't you?

Jeremy J Camilleri

Oct 17th 2009, 19:45

James De Giorgio....Because the Nationalist party is supposedly based on Roman Catholic principles, and, as evident from recent statements issued by the PN, and from further comments made by known Nationalist hardliners on these pages, Roman Catholic principles seem to be very far from their minds.

I thought my first comment was clear enough, but I guess i 'm patient enough to make it clearer, patience, being of course, another Catholic virtue....

c. camilleri

Oct 17th 2009, 19:20

THE TRUTH HURTS say the British
LA VERITA OFFENDE say the Italians

Alfred Zahra

Oct 17th 2009, 19:04

@ V. Laivera.
Yes, I know about them. I also know that it was not one of them who turned the leader of the opposition into a non person by never mentioning his name or activities. As I wrote he was not victimised and neither was his wife who had a good job with a parastatal institution.

Joseph Cauchi

Oct 17th 2009, 19:03

If the (M)LP is going to remain with this type of mind-set, as we are now witnessing in these columns, then, this does not augur well for this party the possibility of ever being in power in Malta, but only to remain in opposition for ever after!

It’s your choice!

JC.

Peter Bonnici

Oct 17th 2009, 18:56

As is the norm with Labour, the apology, if one can call it so was half-hearted. Wouldn't an invitation to the Times staff, and the Fenech Adami's themselves, to Labour HQ have been a better gesture? One has to go out if one's way to express regret, and not just mention it in passing. 15-10-79 was a day like no other, and deserves recognition like no other. This story should have been put to rest a long time ago.

Kevin Borg

Oct 17th 2009, 18:55

@ Victor Laiviera

While brushing my political history this afternoon, as you advised me to do, I realised that MAM was involved in the action taken against the government over its disputes. When does an action taken by a union be attributed to a political party trying to destabilize government? But then I kept brushing and I realised from where your hypothesis was derived. Your idea is related to a GWU strike at the drydocks that did its best to destabilize the Borg Olivier government. But again I ask you, which part of history, and not old wife tales, ties the PN to MAM and MAM to this brutal murder?

As for the case of Raymond Caruana one has to ask why those shots were fired in the first place. Everyone knows that the killing was not intentional but it happened through the irresponsibility of political tugs. And while I was brushing history I came over the aftermath of the case involving Pietru Pawl Busuttil and the frame up organized by police tugs with known political affiliation.

If you would like to continue brushing the political history I recommend you to read it well and never try to re-write it.

Mario Zammit

Oct 17th 2009, 18:51

Thirty years ago Malta was burning. We were living the reign of terror, though this time round it wasn't to overthrow a despotic regime. On the contrary the aim was to bolster a despotic regime. On this occasion the mob instead of attacking the Basitille, it was fomented by the chaps at Castille!!!

It was the golden age of MLP that is often being glorified by many stalwarts to this day!
Meditate gente, meditate.

Peter Abela

Oct 17th 2009, 18:39

@D Zammit

I dont know where u were at the time, unless you were still a TWEINKLE IN DADDY'S EYES. But there are books you can refer to and if one can spare a day I will tell u some truths. If you have a Month you will learn it all maybe.

For those that were sitting pretty or were not yet around it is easy ot twist the facts, but for those that expirienced it it more difficult as they have to forget the facts.

So be realistic and get ur facts

G . Mangion

Oct 17th 2009, 18:34

J.M are you to make an apology-to the, Over 1,000 Dejma task force, that were engaged with the A.F.M back in 1980, and after the mlp regime took power again, they were Kicked Out of the Army By Mr Mintoff ? and to to tell it All the Majority of them are Still suffering Discrimination
To Date ? 1, 000 Families Suffered Hunger at that Time !! and The P.N In Gov't, is Still seeing these 1, 000 P.T.E's as Mercenaries !!!

James De Giorgio

Oct 17th 2009, 18:31

Actually my question to Jeremy J Camilleri is: "Why on earth are you including reigion in this one too????"

Henry S Pace

Oct 17th 2009, 18:30

It is very unfortunate for Dr Muscat to speak in such a way. I do realize that in 1979 Dr Muscat was a 4 year old toddler playing with toys. As Dr Muscat cannot speak with vivid memories of the 1979 events, I would suggest to Dr Muscat to make an indepth research of the Socialist regime in the late 70s' and 80s'.

Ronnie Pellegrini

Oct 17th 2009, 18:28

The people of Malta and Gozo are still waiting for an apology from Eddie Fenech Adami and his friends. This is the man that told us that he knew who killed Karen Grech and Raymond Caruana. Years passed and he kept his mouth shut.

This is the same man that told us that we are one family and Maltese. Under his premiership descrimination was galore.

Jeremy J Camilleri

Oct 17th 2009, 18:11

Dr. Joseph Muscat issues an apology as soon as he is elected leader- Usual Catholic Nationalists say they had'nt heard it.

Joseph Mucat repeats apology- The turn the other cheek brigade say they don' t accept it...

Can anyone help me out and explain why they call themselves Demokristjani?

Albert Gauci Cunningham

Oct 17th 2009, 17:59

It is in Eddie's best interest to see that Muscat's apology is watered down as it is in Gonzi's interest to see that come 2013 Joseph Muscat's persona is smashed to pieces!! Looking back at the past is not going to find the money to flatten the hofra in our finances, it is not going to undo all the broken promises, it is not going to reverse the barefaced ODZ decisions or undo the damage in the bahrija valley. And most of all throwing the past in our faces is not going to change our firm determination to undo what we stupidly did in march 2008 i.e. believe Dr.Gonzi and give him our support. We, the young, will not allow the past to determine our future!!

Duncan Barry

Oct 17th 2009, 17:42

My father was in The Times building when it was gutted by Labour thugs. He was one of the last out. Members of my family recall it was a massive shock for him as I was far too young to remember. A few months later he passed away from a heart attack... It is very likey that the shock didn't help at all. He was a dedicated journalist. It was like they burnt his own home down. Apoligies should have taken place much before Joseph Muscat did. However, its better late than never. But I wonder how much Mr Muscat's apologies are genuine. Is he trying to state that Labour changed over the years. Or is he trying to state that he's different from the rest of Labour's leaders for his own personal gain? I'm sure he's got good advisors in his team. Only time will tell.

Josef Muscat

Oct 17th 2009, 17:27

@ A. Mizzi - no my friend. Better NO APOLOGIES than a pretended one. Hekk tkun taf fejn int.

Victor Laiviera

Oct 17th 2009, 17:24

@ Mr A Zahra

If you look closely at the ranks of the PN, you will get a surprise - for you will find two of the main Xandir Malta stalwarts from the "Run Rabbit Run" days in the forefront..

They seem to have seen the light like St Paul on the road to Damascus.

gaffarena joseph

Oct 17th 2009, 17:19

Jien niskanta b nies li uzaw iz zewg ucuh tal munita, u xorta ma jisthux jejdu kontra il gvern.
Kemm meta kien hemm il gvern ta mintoff, u anki meta kien hemm il PN,dawn xorta komplow illaqtu taht iz zewg gvernijiet.
Li huwa fatt hu, illi dik il vjolenza li ghamlu, xorta baqet tkarkar u b hekk s issa qatt ma kienu fil gvern.
Il vjolenza hadd ma jrida wara il bieb tieghu,u dan hu fattur li il PL,biex jirbah l ellezjoni li gejja, irrid b serjeta jaghti garanzija li taht it tmexxija tieghu dan ma jerga jigri qatt..
Jien l appologija li ghamel il kap tal PL,ilqajta b mod possittiv.
Il poplu malti ma jixraqlux vjolenza,u anqas nies ipokriti li jaraw biss kif ikunu minn ta quddiem, biex jahtfu kollox,u dawn ikunu gejjin mi zewg partiti.
Ejjow nibdow pass il quddiem, billi ikollna gurnata wahda biss li il poplu ikun maghqud,bil jum nazzjonali tieghu.

Jon Agius

Oct 17th 2009, 17:17

Kif tista' ma tidhakx. Loba' ohra politika. X'jonqsu Dr.Muscat jbusilkom il-qiegh ta' saqajkom. Mela l-ewwel tghidu lil Dr.Muscat biex jitlob apologija ta' min sofra habba l-vjolenza Laburista ta' zmien l-80s u meta jtikhom l-apologija tghidu li mhux l-apologija li kontu qed tistennew. Allura il-PN ghaliex ma jghatiex l-apologija tieghu lil-poplu Malti ta' l-iskandlu tal-VAT li min jaf kemm hallasna taxxi ghalxejn ahna biex umbghad hemm min ma jhallasiex. Issa, wara 20 sena' sar jaf bija din?? Basta rridu nitkellmu fuq il-futur tat-tfal biex imbghad hlief 4 xjuh jilatikaw fuq x'gara fi zmien Mintoff u fi zmien Borg Olivier ma ssibx, u ghax tivutax il-dak ghax ma jhallikx tara television bil-kulur, u ghax tivutax il-dawk ghax dawk minn dejjem gidibin...... PAJJIZ TAL-MICKEY MOUSE!!!

Marion Pace

Oct 17th 2009, 17:13

Ghazziz EFA nisstenna jien, il-familja tieghi u min ghadd sfortunatament irrid jaghaddi minn dak li ghaddejna dan is-sajf imhabba l-inkompetenza ta l-amministrazjoni tieghek. L-isptar STATEOf The ARt li bnejtu mhux qed jaqdi lil-poplu Malti sew ghax ma jilhaqx ma domanda. Jmissu kien hawn planning ahjar ta tahrig ghal haddiema tas-sahha. Missieri miet xahgrejn ilu wara li qbdidtu trombozi u baghtuh id-dar wara jumejn biss. Il-kura ried johoda biss l-isptar ghax ma setax jiehu pinoli. Tibzax xi darba ghad trid tigu ghal gudizju tal Mulej ghal xiex qed insofru ahna u min u bhalna.

Dr Francis Saliba

Oct 17th 2009, 17:10

@Denis Catania
Where did you get the idea that “after the PN took office” no investigation was made. I remember distinctly being called by homicide experts from Scotland Yard to assist in the investigation of the parcel bombs sent through the post to the Grechs and to Chetcuti Caruana. Most significantly, I was never called by the MLP police at the time when the clues were still fresh and when my evidence could have assisted in solving that crime – but not in the way that the MLP propaganda machine was pointing!

D Zammit

Oct 17th 2009, 17:00

Is there anyone who hasn't any skeletons in his cupboard? Is it possible that all the trouble was caused by Labour supporters? Was there a person in Zebbug, two years ago who said he will say who ordered the throwing of stones in Zebbug over Labour supporters? Does Maltese history start 30 years ago? What about the years before? Were we holier than the Pope?

I think it's a shame on EFA to talk in this manner. Up to a few months ago he was President of all the Maltese, or he should have been. What about the political injustices he was found guilty, did he ask any pardons? Set an example first. Don't continue to sow division in our society. You are giulty as much as any other.

Victor Laiviera

Oct 17th 2009, 17:00

@ Mr Kevin Borg

You need to brush up your political history. The premeditated murder of 15-year old Karin Grech was a political assassination. It happened because her father refused to abandon his patients and participate in the campaing of political sabotage and destabilisation organised by the PN with the aid of the MAM and other entities. Just a few days before the letter-bomb was received, a delegation from the MAM (read PN) visited Prof Edwin Grech to try and persuade him to join them. When he refused, one of them told him to "be careful as he had a wife and family". These are matters of public record.

The case of Raymond Caruana was an act of mindless vandalism which had tragic results. Shots were fired at the closed door of a club and one of them found a mark which was very probably never intended.

You cannot rewrite history to suit your perceptions.

m camilleri

Oct 17th 2009, 16:56

My father had no other choice in the 60's but to go to Australia to earn a living because there was no or in Malta undr the PN government. no oe talks about te hardships dring the 60's under the Pn government.
i want to congratulate the Times for reviving stories of 30 years ago and to try and make us forget all the hardships of nowadays. I truly dont care about 30 years ago because i know that it wont happen again,though i am sure that there are people here who might want it to happen,
i care about the rising in cost of living, the exorbitant W&E tariffs,i care of not having a chance to travel on a private jet,of having to pay for the rest of my life just to own a masionette.
the Times hardly ever talks about these hardships and i wonder why. if i accept a gift during Xmas time i might get a warning because a govenmemt employee cant accept choclate boxes.
i am an honest taxpayer but who is not honest is being given an amnesty.

Raymond Sammut

Oct 17th 2009, 16:55

@ Denis Catania

That's a good question. By the time the PN took office, it would have been too late. An independent inquiry had to be held days after these ugly events took place. But after Mintoff and Fenech-Adami had watered down Malta's 1964 constitution in 1974, there was no-one left on the island to hold an independent inquiry. For example, President Anton Buttigieg never made a public statement. Malta became an island ruled by the fittest. Both Mintoff and Fenech-Adami were to blame. Together they threw Malta into this quagmire. Fenech-Adami should not be asking Muscat for an apology. Fenech-Adami, along with Mintoff, should apologise to the Maltese people. They were both in it together.

Noel Cutajar

Oct 17th 2009, 16:53

A lot has been written during these few days by former members of the The Times...can they state whether anyone recognized any persons as I am sure that none had his face covered...so in 1987 they had ample time to investigate the Black Monday and to arrest and arraign any person. So by EFA saying that no arrests were made he could have imposed pressure on the police to start a proper investigation as they did in the case against the former Commissioner of Police. So what stopped them? Each side has its own skeletons to hide or what?

c. camilleri

Oct 17th 2009, 16:49

@ G Grima. You claim to play the role of an uncommitted person but comments like this one has clearly shown your true colour. Can you please specify any of the daily transgressions of A F Adami or his Govt . And if any exists, do these compare to the monstrosities done by labour? You are just going Joseph's way by bringing the parties on the same level of aggression. Why not bring us some pictures of the damage done by the Nationalists instead of inventing facticious transgressions? Pls be honest for once and admit that your colour has always been red. And stop playing the fool with us.

A. Mizzi

Oct 17th 2009, 16:49

Better a "generic" ( not my words) apology than no apology at all, dear Eddie.

Joe Grima

Oct 17th 2009, 16:46

I don't spend my entire day reading TimesonLine so I missed some replies by regular PN aplogists to my contributions yesterday. A standing ovation to the Times for succeding so well in diverting attention from last week's scandal and from the current terrible situation brought about by Minsiterial incompetence, immeasurable arrogance, wild spending and by a weak PM who doesn't have the guts to throw out dead weight Ministers. Now the Times extends yesterday's story with EFA's reaction to Joseph's apology, prolonging the irrelevance of it all. From a former President, who has all my respect, I would have expected a more balanced contribution, at least recognising Joseph Muscat's apology as an honest effort at national harmony. With his public statements, EFA needs to move the country away from division and closer to national unity. The fact is that the PN is seriously worried about Joseph Muscat's new way of doing politics. His moderates/progressives coalition proposal has given JM a long reach into PN territory as EFA's "qalbna mal Haddiema" speech once did. The PN will squirm and spin until Joseph's ideas are devalued and possibly discredited. The Times provides the fishing rod but the bait remains largely untouched.

Josef Muscat

Oct 17th 2009, 16:41

@ Gordon Farrugia - min bil-passat tieghu ghandu biex jiftahar sewwa jaghmel isemmih : PN u passat - Indipendenza, Ewropa, Ewro, etc etc. Min il-passat tieghu jaghmillu ghajb u jixtieq li ma jsemmihx jista' juza slogan simili ghal dak li jintuza meta jinbieghu l-Bonds :
VJOLENZA U NUQQAS TA' DEMOKRAZIJA JISTA' JKUN HAWN U JISTA' MA JKUNX HAWN. IL-PASSAT MA HUWIEX GARANZIJA TAL-FUTUR.

A. Zahra

Oct 17th 2009, 16:25

@ Charles Flores
We are still waiting for an apology from the person who proposed to Xandir Malta and enforced the boycott of the name of then Leader of the Dr. Fenech Adami. The name of that person is very well known yet he was never victimised or ostricised.

T Mifsud

Oct 17th 2009, 16:25

It is very clear that the MLP violence of the 70s and 80s is still a wound which still hurts!

It is also clear that, although the first step by Dr Muscat has been done, it hasn't gone far enough!

I think books need to be written on those events from people who are with a sensitive conscience and are ready to admit facts of the reality back then. Also I would also go as far as to say they will be given amnesty and will not be incriminated for their version of facts.

Darren Cassar

Oct 17th 2009, 16:21

@Josef Muscat.
As a floater coming from a nationalist family I agree with you that 1987 was a liberating year, in fact as a young boy i was celebrating victory at floriana.
The truth is that as a person who never went to ministers for favours I suffered and obsereved great injustices at my workplace which made no honour nor improved this nation. This is experienced especially in the last 8 years. We all know how everything is collapsing be it infrastructure and economy. The energies should be spent on solving the multitude of problems we have and not on arguments and apologies which happened 30 years ago.

The whole point is that it does not make sense for parties and Maltese to start arguing on events which happened 30 years ago especially now that everything changes so rapidly.
It is not wise to hinder democracy because of violent events happening 30 years ago. In my opinion things have changed and people have by now learned to be civilised even at election times.

Let Gonzi and Muscat do their job. Both should be given a chance. On election day we decide.

Kevin Borg

Oct 17th 2009, 15:58

@ Charles Buttigieg

I know I should not be answering your comment but for the sake of history I should.

Your conclusion is typical of a hard liner PL supporter that even he cannot beleive what his party and leaders of the time were capable of. You and many others are still living in a state of denial after all these years.

But the lowest of your assumptions is the one regarding the political assasinations. First off all Karen's assasination had nothing to do with politics. I am sure you are not that blind, altough I have my doubts, that you are not accusing the PN of killing her? On the other hand the case of Raymond Caruana is purily political and set out in a phase in our country were human rights were non-existent. I hope that you are not saying that the PN leaders also ordered the shoot out on their club.

Nowadays I am very irritated with the current goverment's administration but when I see that PL supporters have not yet accepted the horrors commited by their party in those dark days, doubts start coming back as to what I should do when the next election comes.

Gordon Farrugia

Oct 17th 2009, 15:49

nies ghamjin bil-politika u jghixu fil-passat...dawn huma l-hardcore li zgur ma jaghmlux gieh lil pajjiz.

Denis Catania

Oct 17th 2009, 15:49

Why wasn't an investigation and arrests made after the PN took office ????

c. camilleri

Oct 17th 2009, 15:30

To EFA. Eddie you saved Malta from dictatorship and steered it to its present democratic state,where contrary to Labour's dark days everyone is free to express his/her views without being victimised.
The labour party rightly owe you an apology for all they have done to you and your family, but all the Maltese owe you a big THANK YOU for their present freedom.The pity is that with all these evidence being exposed there are those who still deny these facts and try to put the blame on the Nationalists. We who had lived those dark days and suffered too under the labour regime surely will never forget these events.
@ Charles Flores. What kind of reply? Does the victim ever apologised to the aggressor? This is rich indeed coming from a labour stalwart .

Josef Muscat

Oct 17th 2009, 15:22

@ Darren Cassar = the ideal situation for any Nation is that who deserves, wins. That is the trouble with MLP / PL. In 1981, they did not deserve to win. They did not win. They declared that they had won. And Malta and the Maltese never lived happily ever after, until ............... !
9 th MAY 1987 !!!!

Charles J. Buttigieg

Oct 17th 2009, 15:08

The political violence from the Labour side was committed spontaneously by known criminals and other thugs. Those people were certainly not knowledgeable enough to manufacture sophisticated letter bombs and the methods used to plant bombs at the Sliema Police Station, on the doorsteps of Dr. L Pullicino, Maj. Grech, Albert Mizzi and other places.

The Labour thugs had no motive to assassinate Wilfred Cardona, Karen Grech and Raymond Caruana and attempt to assassinate RCC. Those dastard acts were being engineered by ‘The professionals’ and executed by the ‘operatives’. And who were the ‘operatives’? According to the PN they were PL supporters sponsored by the state. Now anybody believing that would believe anything.

It is on record that solid, proven and never denied facts show that Guns, ammunition and Molotov cocktails were found at the PN’s HQ. Any denials?

Josef Muscat

Oct 17th 2009, 15:07

@ Joseph Vella - if ( and a big IF ) the PN loses the next election, it will not only be making room for Joseph but also to those surrounding him ( not few ) that 30 years ago were already part of the MLP. That is the big problem, my friend. PN cannot stop to keep reminding us of the MLP years 1979 - 1987, because in that way it is also making us aware that many of those responsible are still around. Hoping to obtain ministries, key positions etc in three years time. And Joseph seems to be so happy with them.

Darren Cassar

Oct 17th 2009, 14:56

Sadly, this is truly a no hope country. We are going back to the seventies.
Does the PN want to remain in power forever.
The ideal situation for Malta as a nation is 10 years PN and ten years LP.

James Portelli

Oct 17th 2009, 14:48

@j.Spiteri. Nardu Debono was killed by police. Lawrence Pullicino was convicted. Before that, they tried to frame the innocent Pietru Pawl Busuttil.
@Godfrey Grima. You're sounding to much like the PL adviser that you've become. Independent as you try and sound, it just doesn't wash.

Anthony Castillo

Oct 17th 2009, 14:45

How can Joseph make a real appology for something that he can't even remember especialy what happens to a politician that save DEMOCRACY in MALTA EDDIE FENECH ADAMI.All this happen becouse the labour goverment wanted to carry on in power against the will of the MALTESE people. Hope that if they ever got in power they don't do the same becouse it looks like it with most of the same people in the party with the eception of the leader Josephthat he looks that he already join this kind of group of the militants of the party.Joseph imagine what happen to a great leader and a great politician like EDDIE FENECH ADAMI happens to you and your family would you expect a real appology. Joseph thank God that you was very young in those days becuose I'm pretty shure that you would'nt even think to be involved in politics never mind in being a leader of a political party becouse as people of my age who was involved in politics thier life was always in danger, mind if you'r on the Nationalist side or you have to leave your country against your will like I and many Maltese did.

B Cassar

Oct 17th 2009, 14:35

dear Eddie

you had one scope in your poltiical carer to achieve EU, which you succeded. The cost for that objective, though good, was an unmanageable country, a low class of politicians which are unable to run the country. A country messed up with speculators and drained from its coutnry side. A country not able to identify itself as a nation. And an ideology that sprawled thorughout all classes of society , whereby who dares wins.
now for that anyone needs an apology? i might not but your children and mine are suffering the consequences directly. Thanks to you they might go and study overseas and in the meantime they might say "wow theres a real breath of fresh air here and even though chaotic it feels that someone is in control and all citizens abide by the rule of law"

Josef Muscat

Oct 17th 2009, 14:26

@ G. Debono : sew irragunajt, apologija ghandha tkun unconditional, diretta u bla tlaqliq. Pero' Joseph Muscat ma' huwiex f'pozizzjoni li jaghmel apologija ' unconditional ' ghax bin-nies li huwa imdawwar bihom huwa ferm ikkundizzjonat. Nitkexkex ingib quddiem ghajnejja, li min 30 sena ma ghamel xejn biex stragijiet bhal dawk setghu jigu evitati, illum qed jaspira li fi zmien mhux wisq il-boghod ikun Ministru, MP Laburista jew mahtur f'xi kariga importanti. Sakemm l-affarijiet jibghu hekk, l-ebda apologija ma hija kredibbli, izda biss konvenjenti.

Dr Francis Saliba

Oct 17th 2009, 14:25

@GodfreyGrima
There are many intelligent people who do not have the same motivation as the Grimas for a “forgiven past”. They would much prefer a genuine and categorical apology, without reservations, rather than a vague expressions of regret intended to serve as a hypnotic for the masses without ruffling the feathers of the “gerarchi” of the MLP.

s pulis

Oct 17th 2009, 14:16

gaffarena joseph
Fenech Adami ma gabx unita' f'Malta. L-ghaqda hadd ma jista jgibha f'Malta ghax il-poplu Malti jehda bil-firdiet. Insa l-politika. Il-maggoranza tal-poplu hu Kattoliku - suppost maghqud... imma le biex ikollna l-firdiet hloqna kazini kontra kazini! Hu l-hdura li tohrog f'xi Tazza tad-Dinja tal-Futbol... u dan ma jkun hemm xejn minn taghna. Ahna poplu mifrud u HADD ma jista jghaqqad lil dan il-gens..... hasra kbira eh!

U biex nghidu kollox. Il-poplu xeba jisma fuq interdett u Tnejn l-Iswed... ejjew nsemmu dawn l-affarijiet biss biex la wahda u anqas l-ohra qatt ma jergghu jsiru imma biex nirregettaw il-hdura politika li hawn fl-istonku ta' xi whud! Darba Oliver Friggieri qal ahna poplu ta' zewg tribujiet! Kellek ragun profs! konna hekk qabel u minn dawn il-kummenti tinduna li hekk ghadna: Il-Malrin homor u l-Maltin blu. Vjola ftit hemm!

Christian Azzopardi

Oct 17th 2009, 14:15

Mis-subgha jiehdu l'id!

Hekk imissu jerga joqghod japologizza ghal darb'ohra Muscat. Ghax Muscat kellu l-guts (li tal-PN qatt ma kellhom) li japologizza, hargu jitkellmu qishom il-paladini tal-gustizzja u qishom qatt ma zbaljaw. U halluna. Imbaghad jitkellmu fuq rikonciljazzjoni. Mhux se joqghodu bi kwiethom sakemm idahhlu f'ras il-poplu Malti li tal-PN QATT ma zbaljaw kemm ilhom jezistu.

E. Vassallo

Oct 17th 2009, 14:14

@Randolph Debattista

Mary Fenech Adami's interview this week showed the humility of the wife of a great leader. She who got beaten by Socialist thugs had stated that she does not want any harm for her family neither for those who attacked her!!!

Joseph Muscat, it is not enough stealing catch phrases (Is-Sewwa jirbah zgur) from Eddie Fenech Adami, but be yourself and live your principles.

S.Mifsud

Oct 17th 2009, 14:08

@ Dr. Francis Saliba
It is ironic how the PN used individuals like Mintoff and Alex Sciberras Trigona for their gain of power in 1998. I can still remember PN street billboards with their faces prior to the 1998 election, trying to depict the then Labour government as a fragmented one, since these persons defected from the Party. However, now that a person like Alex Sciberras Trigona has returned to the Labour fold, he is now depicted as coming from the 'old crew'. Persons are ok if they can be used for the PN's gain, but then they are not ok if they cannot be used anymore by the PN. Moreover, may I remind you that some of the 'old crew' personalities within the Labour government times of the 1970s/1980s, ended up very much within the PN's fold, some of which also doing TV programme's on NET TV, serving the PN well. Having said this, the most important point here is that such events taught everyone in Malta to do politics in a new way. Now lets focus on making sure that Malta faces the challenges of 2009 and beyond. This is what my vote will depend on in 2013!

Joseph Vella

Oct 17th 2009, 14:05

"Fejn huma l-Laburisti?" ... enough with the drama Eddie..PN can't keep on using the 80's to cover it's lack of ideas and inability to run the country. Make room for Joseph. We need a new Progressive way of doing Politics...

Forsi xi darba vera Is-sewwa jirbah zgur.

Dr Francis Saliba

Oct 17th 2009, 14:01

@JBorg
As one who had a bomb planted on his doorstep and who had his office door burnt I can tell you precisely why these dangerous vandalisms stopped after the PN won the elections in 1987. They stopped because the perpetrators were too cowardly to operate without the protection of a corrupted police force. In both instances I identified the culprits to the police who were taken aback by my temerity and of course took no action. My reward after the arson of my office door, actually inside the Police headquarters, was for the then Acting Commissioner of Police to seek my dismissal from the Police Force relying on trumped up charges of sedition and flouting orders categorically denied by everyone else! That attempt failed miserably but I was still forced to retire compulsorily from the service, illegally, and for good measure, twice within the same week!

T.Camilleri

Oct 17th 2009, 13:58

With a fragmented PN party in power and with Malta in dire straits, it appears that the only thing functioning on these islands, is the PN Spin Machine.

It is well known fact that when the PN is against the ropes their spin machine and its allies are at their very best, and they use anything and anyone to divert the public opinion, from the mess they brought this country in.

And we were led to believe that we are ILKOLL AHWA MALTIN, and 30 years later, EFA after retiring, having served Malta as PN leader, Leader of the Opposition, Prime Minister and President , he felt the need to stuck his neck out , and give a helping hand, in these turbulent times to the nationalist party.

The way ahead is forward, and we cannot be stuck in the past for convenience sake only.

Tom Grima

Oct 17th 2009, 13:36

Look Whos Talking ....Again.

Dr Eddie, did you ever apologised when you was found GUILTY, more than once, of political discrimination and even giulty of violating human rights?

R.J.Costigan

Oct 17th 2009, 13:17

Some of those who attacked and gutted the Times and Dr. Eddie Fenech Adami's
home and various PN clubs sre still within the Labour Party and Joseph Muscat's.
When he really get rid of those people, we can say that there is a beginning of
some sort of pardon otherwise when there is the chance I think that there will be
a repetition of those black days. Dr. Fenech Adam is right in his answer.

CHARITY BEGINS AT HOME Dr. MUSCAT

Your media is worsening your party. You have to do a general spring cleaning.
I never watch your one television - and I repeat NEVER-.

David Buttigieg

Oct 17th 2009, 12:59

@S. Mifsud

"Should Joseph Muscat get on his knees infront of them"

Of Course!

@Johann Zammit

"My father was the editor of Il-Helsien. Priests used to tell people not to go to my fathers barber shop as they are sinful people. DNUB IL-MEJJET."

Terrible - the Church should indeed get down on it's knees and apologise for that - but no one else but the Church! Governments cannot impose mortal sin!

There are many more things LP should formally apologise for on hands and knees including shutting down my PRIVATE (repeat private and not even Church) school to deny me an education. I had to study underground for practically a whole term giving a proud two finger salute to the government of the day!

Remember how we didn't even have toothpaste or pasta in those days? Not quite as bad as allowing by inaction all that violence by labour thugs, but still!

Charles Flores

Oct 17th 2009, 12:57

Yeah, and when are we going to get his non-generic apology? A former President of the Republic needs to be a lot more gracious than this. Joseph Muscat has bravely started the process. Why not reply in kind?

Fredu Attard

Oct 17th 2009, 12:55

Did Dr.Fenech Adami apologised to the Maltese trappers and hunters and how he destroyed their lives with all his personal GARATEES by joining the EU.

Joseph Borg

Oct 17th 2009, 12:47

Talab appologija ghal li gara ghal darba tnejn xi tridu aktar!! Dejjem teqirdu , dejjem tghidu li il labour ma jinbidlu qatt dejjem tghidu li imnalla kienu Il PN li salvaw malta....EFA missu jitlob appologija mhux x gara 30sena ilu imma per ezempju tal isptar state of the art li fetah li gie jisma aktar mit triplu li suppost kellu jigi jiswa... min flus il poplu... minhabab traskuragni u nuqqas ta ippjanar....dak missu jitlob EFA flus li telqu min but il poplu u il bambin biss jaf fejn spiccaw. Soddod ma hemmx bizzejjed, waiting lists tal biza, pinolli out of stock...pazzjenti jistennew eternita biex jaraw tabib l-emergenza...poliklinici meqrudin u abbandunati....pazjenti sighat twal fuq stretcher area 2 tal emergenza ghax EFA &co pjana hazin u berbaq flus il poplu...meta ha titlob appologija ta dan kollu sur EFA! ahna prezent jinteressanu u mhux xghamul il PN fis 60s u x ghamlu il labour fis 70s...ahna 2009 jinteressana EFA gahx ILLUM qed nghixu..li gara kien hazin ma hemmx skuzi...il-knisja u il-pl talbu appologija il-PN ma nafx qatx talbu appologija tas 60s imma ejja nghidu li talbu huma wkoll..ahna illum jinteressana!!

Gordon Farrugia

Oct 17th 2009, 12:46

and sure who is going to apologize for the modern gross sins perpetrated against Malta by all those approved building permits in non-development zones!!!??????????

Gordon Farrugia

Oct 17th 2009, 12:43

this is despair and true christian spirit (not!). they have nothing to fight back with so just a little boy says 'no I won't forgive you', we are seeing the same 'no' 'no' here so that they can keep using the past as a sting. But in reality the Labourites have suffered much more in the 60's and this is always conveniently forgotten except for a declaration from the church (which to add has suffered a huge self-blow as the children of the 60's sufferers grew up to hear from their parents the unjustices perpetrated by the church in Malta back then). And unlike the 80's where a few persons/churches were targeted in a few episodes, the 60's happenings were a systematic non-ending psychological punishment inflicted to half the Maltese populace.

Randolph De Battista

Oct 17th 2009, 12:37

@ everyone

Let's not forget the findings of the Tribunal for Injustices (set up by law and given the force of a court). "Between 1987 and 1995 (up to when the office of the ombudsman was set up) there were over 2260 cases of injustice, classified as PSYCHOLOGICAL VIOLENCE."

Moreover, the government led by the same EFA, the father of democracy as some of you call him, failed to honor a huge number of the Tribunal's decisions. Now isn't that a case of double injustice?

At least Joseph Muscat apologised for something he didn't do. Where are EFA's apologies for these events, happening while he was PM?

John English

Oct 17th 2009, 12:13

EFA is expecting a fcoused apology and not a generic apology. Well many others are expecting an apology from EFA for having introduced the division between his fellow country men in 1976. Dr George Borg Olivier was a visionary, a statesman and a respectable Prime Minister. Your first apology EFA should go to this great person who has done great things for this country. Your second apology should go to the Maltese people at large for having created a political situation in Malta that was unbearable. It is useless and perturbing to blame the political situation of the Eighties just on one side....at the end of the day the Government of the day had not interest whatsoever to create a difficult situation in the country. Your third apology should go towards those Labour supports who prior to taking your postion as President of the Republic, ironically in Republic Street, you were calling out "fejn huma l-Laburisti". Your fourth apology should go towards those sectors of society like the hunters, the drydock workers and many others for selling Malta to the European Unionfor making false promises to these sectors of Maltese society.

j.spiteri

Oct 17th 2009, 12:12

Sur Eddie Fenech Adami, ghidilna min qatel lil Karren Grech, Raymond Caruana lil Nardu Debono. Ghidilna min kisser bil-bombi lill kull min iprova jappoga lil gvern tal-Labour. Ghidilna Sur! Dawn weghdi li ghamilthom int mill bank ta' l-oppozizzjoni. Tinsiex, hemm Gustizzja akbar min ta' din id-dinja la jasal il-waqt.

G.Debono

Oct 17th 2009, 12:12

Simpatija maz-zewg partiti mhux li ghandi, ghax it-tnejn li huwa jilghabuha tal-qaddisien issa, pero mhumhiex!

Izda.. Ghalkemm l-apologija ta' Joe Muscat hija pass ghaqli, frankament tidher half hearted.

(1) Kummenti bhal "more could have been done to avoid" etc.. etc..

Skuzi, kienet cara, li 'nothing was done' apposta. Tal-Labour ridu li jinqalaw stragijiet. Forsi mhux direttament instigawhom, izda indirettament iva u hadu gost bihom.

(2) Li fl-istess nifs ta' l-apologija issemmi li kemm bghatew xi gurnalisti, laburisti etc.. fiz-zmien il-50s/60s.

Bazikament tkun qed turi li l-appologija tieghek mhux 100/100 genuina. Appologija ghanda tkun unconditional, diretta, bla tlaqliq, kundanna tal-Partit Laburista ta l-80s, u bla ma tipprova tim-mellowja l-affari billi tipprova ssemmi grajjiet ohra li graw kontra tal-lejber. There is another time/place for that.

(3) Apologija genwina tinkludi kumpens materjali mil-PL lill partijiet ingurjati ta dak iz-zmien.

Fosthom il-Fenech Adamis u t-Times bhala kumpanija u impjegati li kienu gewwa t-Times dak iz-zmien u gew imwerwra. (Hemm hafna ohra propja, tipo kazini li tkisru).

Apologija GENWINA minimament tinkludi l-punti msemmija, il-bqija, kliem fil-vojt jkun.

Tal-PN ghandhom HAFNA x'jappoliggizaw ukoll, but that is another arguement f'waqt differenti - ma ghandux x'jaqsam ma dan il-kaz, allura huwa frivolu li jigi msemmi hawn.

Jeremy J Camilleri

Oct 17th 2009, 12:11

Oh well...so much for one sides attempt of reconciliation.

Is it me, or is it the most Catholic elements on these commenst pages who spew the most hatred?

Patrick Camilleri

Oct 17th 2009, 12:10

Amongst other statements Dr J.Muscat spoke of "all those who used the Labour Party and then threw it away"................how cheeky can these people be!

Ray Borg

Oct 17th 2009, 11:48

Somtimes you think that we are still leaving 30 years ago, With the goverment burning us every day with out applogies. The times was burnt ones and we the middle sector are burnt every day.

R Gatt

Oct 17th 2009, 11:44

Instead of mud slinging eachother at each of the party's mis-comings, lets just celebrate that an episode like Black Monday is now hopefully a thing of the past, and our parties are now more mature about their way of doing politics. Be you labourite, be you nationalist, be you AD, AN or what have you, there is no excuse for such violence, beating up people or burning places down.

Joe Coleiro

Oct 17th 2009, 11:43

How long will we wait for the PN to apologise for the infamous Family law that brought so much suffering?

gaffarena joseph

Oct 17th 2009, 11:36

EDDIE,you was and still are the perfect gentleman.You saved us from becoming a one state government.How can we forget that black monday, and the years that followed under mintoff
regime.How can he accuse you of provoking those incidents. I, still remember as if it was yesterday, that you always told us to remain calm,and administer no violence.More than ever we have to tell our younger generation about that sad past, so whoever will be in power will not let that happen again.
Sure I,condemned the mintoff regime for all that happened.
Honest people coming from any party know for sure that you provoked no one, and thanks to you , that today we have all this freedom,because democracy at that time was going to be a thing of the past.
Eddie,as a maltese citizen,I, thank you for bringing again democracy and unity to our country

Dr Francis Saliba

Oct 17th 2009, 11:32

@Smifsud
The state sponsored violence of the MLP during the Mintoff-KMB era is actually the most recent prolonged experience at our disposal hinting at what to expect from the LP if it is elected to power with the same crew that is now being taken aboard by Joseph Muscat. This action speaks much louder than his generic and unconvincing rhetoric.

Mario Bonnici

Oct 17th 2009, 11:30

The PN continues to amaze me. They talk about RECONCILIATION and than continue to attack and criticise every move made by the NEW Labour leader in order to heal past wounds. What are you expecting from Joseph Muscat?
Dr. Muscat had the courage to apologise for things that he had nothing to do with in the 70's.
I hope the PN will have the same courage to admit their past mistakes.

joanna farrugia

Oct 17th 2009, 11:28

@ j micallef at least joseph muscat had the guts to do an apology while pn including efa never did.it seems that you have forgotten how many pl ppl were buried "fil mizbla" and since he always knew who killed karen grech what it is that is holding back to say who done it.thats why ppl are opening their eyes cos pn always was and will be arrogant and it seems you live in dreamland too cos if you want ask the ppl who lost their jobs under the nationalist i am 1 of them and many others.

B Borg

Oct 17th 2009, 11:28

@James Portelli,
If there is a justice system in this country and wouldn't been better if he broke his silence and showed his respect to the victims, their families and the society at large.

Victor Laiviera

Oct 17th 2009, 11:24

As far as I know, Dr Fenech Adami has never apologised to the victims (and their families) of drug dealers like Queiroz and Joseph Fench (aka Zeppi l-Hafi) pardoned for reasons which were never made clear to the Maltese people.

MICHAEL cauchi

Oct 17th 2009, 11:22

the statement ''fejn huma l laburisti '' made by EFA in Republic str , Valletta was the most shameful of them all !!

Franco Debono

Oct 17th 2009, 11:17

The two big political parties have skeletons in their cupboard. Some old, some recent.

Let us read the past as HIstory, both good and bad, and move on.

Dr Francis Saliba

Oct 17th 2009, 11:13

@JPortelli
Your comment is irrelevant to the burning of The Times. But since you are so fastidious about ‘environmental destruction’ do we have to wait much longer for your condemnation of the preceding “absulute devistation” caused by a certain Lorry Sant and colleagues at Ghadira, Mellieha in the areas of Tas-Sellum and the horrid shanty town below the Red tower created so as to accomodate a "Danish village" that was "out of bounds" to the locals?

Mariella Galea

Oct 17th 2009, 11:05

Prosit Randolph

That was the reason I voted PN in 1987... Since then all we've had was promises promises and more promises - sorry but no more... Haven't trusted this person since then.

Josef Muscat

Oct 17th 2009, 10:56

Joseph Muscat as a Modern Labour Leader should pay a visit to the Times and Eddie's family, and accompanied by those that formed part of the MLP 30 years ago and still part of to day's PL ask on behalf of them an apology. Then the Labour leader will become credible. Them being still around to day makes me shiver. It is very obvious that Joseph Muscat is finding it very difficult to get rid of people like them and that makes me convinced that PL has not changed.

J.Borg

Oct 17th 2009, 10:52

What passes through my mind is that the PN are assuming that they never did anything and were never involved in anything during that period.

So, how can one explain to me how during the MLP administration we used to hear that a bomb explded at one place the day after in another place and so forth...

How come these stopped when the PN won the election in 1987....

and how is it that people in the police forse who were heavily accused by the PN were promoted...

so yes we are expecting an apology from the PN as well and hope that all these matters are closed.....if the PN really wishes that....

godfrey grima

Oct 17th 2009, 10:50

Dr Eddie Fenech Adami's reaction helps litle cast those dark days of violence and counter violence into the forgiven past. He possibly would have shown greater diplomatic prowess coming up with a less legalistic and a more uniting comment. Instead of accepting the Muscat apology in the spirit in which it was made he chooses to discribe it as meaningless as ' generic'.The Nationalist Party's spin of the Muscat speech is then so shallow one wonders who writes their Enid Blyton stuff.

Many of us not committed to backing one party or the other see all of this as deficient- almost provocative. Surely both Dr Fenech Adami and his party would have bolstered their stature further offering at least a similar ' generic' apology for the government's endless daily transgressions. Would that not have been a wiser way forward than rounding on what seemed to be a heart felt apology for Labour's recriminations committed thrity years ago?.

Joe Xuereb

Oct 17th 2009, 10:44

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. The present administration, in place for twenty odd years, is indeed a pudding worth tasting only to be thrown in the bin forthwith. Make no mistake about that.
So is this still the level of politics in Malta? Nothing has changed since the sixties when the threats by a uniquely Maltese Catholic Church were a force to be reckoned with.
I think it is more a case of the pot calling the kettle black. And this applies to both factions. Grow up and learn a bit of humility. Or is that too much to ask of staunch Catholics? Go on, take a risk. Be humble and understand the true meaning of arrogance. And you will never have to confess that sin again. Because insight is everything.

Corinna Grech

Oct 17th 2009, 10:34

Bla sinsla!

Joseph Muscat does not even have the courage to say,'Yes, our guys did it, with the approval of the LP of the time. We can only try to imagine the hurt and pain they caused and we are sorry and ashamed for all that has happened. But we hope we can put this in the past and look forward and work together in these very different times. The LP of today is not the LP of the 70s bla bla bla.'

Joseph Buttigieg Attard

Oct 17th 2009, 10:33

EFA needs first to give example himself.

Shouldn’t he publicly apologise to those hundreds and hundreds of persons who suffered so many political discriminations and psychological violence when he was in office? Shouldn’t he publicly apologise to Dr A Sant for the deceitful way he attributed deed/s on our public TV, that later were found to be just BIG LIES! Shouldn’t he apologies to us all for giving us publicly that impression the HE KNEW who the murderers of Raymond and Karen were and will bring them to justice as soon as he steps at Castille?

Yes , Dr Eddie /Edward Fenech Adami you should give an example and publicly apologies to all those who suffered all kinds of injustices and psychological violence when you were in office. Thousands are still cry for justice suffered under your reign; justice is still being denied.

Yes EFA we are all still waiting for your many apologies!

Dr Francis Saliba

Oct 17th 2009, 10:28

@RandolphDeBattista
Apologies for the unsolved murders of Karen Grech and Raymond Caruana are not due from Eddie Fenech Adami. They are due from the police force under the thumb of MLP Prime Ministers who failed to solve those murders committed when they, not the PN, were in office. But that police force was more interested in providing propaganda material for the MLP, in framing innocent people rather than exposing the real killers. The MLP police force made such a thorough job of tampering with the evidence, and obstructing the subsequent course of justice, that even if the identity of the culprits was suspected or known no one would be able to prove it to the satisfaction of a criminal court of law “without reasonable doubt”.
As for "transfers" ,and speaking for myself, I the MLP was not satisfied with transferring me. They tried unsuccesfully to dismiss me from the service by a frame up and when that failed they illegally compulsorily retired me from my government post as Police Medical Officer.

Antoine Vella

Oct 17th 2009, 10:20

Can anyone please quote Joseph Muscat's actual words which are being interpreted as an "apology"?

For the record, the dictionary defines 'apology' as " a verbal or written expression of regret or contrition for a fault or failing".

Johann Zammit

Oct 17th 2009, 10:09

My father was the editor of Il-Helsien. Priests used to tell people not to go to my fathers barber shop as they are sinful people. DNUB IL-MEJJET.

And how many transfers , and re shuffle of PBS???

With all respect to EFA but hadd ma hu subajgh dritt.

Tell us about Karen Grech please.

Charles J. Buttigieg

Oct 17th 2009, 10:07

How about an apology for the suffering my family and I had to endure when our President Emeritus was Prime Minister between 1987 and 1996? Muscat made a general apology while you keep insisting that you have done no wrong.
When I was being humiliated and grossly discriminated against EFA knew what was going on.

James Portelli

Oct 17th 2009, 10:04

@Randolph DeBattista. While he's at it, EFA should apologise for bringing democracy to Malta, getting us into the EU and polluting his lungs with tear gas at tal barrani. Apologise for saying he knows who killed Karin Grech and Raymond Caruana? Let's assume he does know. What planet are you on? There is a justice system in this country and his silence shows respect for that.

J Farrugia

Oct 17th 2009, 10:03

EFA should not make any apologies to any one. Whatever he did was in the national interest and yes there was aneed to put those opponents who put in spokes in the wheels in their proper place and not demoted. The nationalist government never demoted anyone. It was the Labour governments that put nationalist party jobs at risk as well as those who supported the PN. History will not be re written to accomodate the new Labour (if there is anything new in it because all the old faces are back in power).

J Portelli

Oct 17th 2009, 09:59

Now that Labour has finally apologized for the sins of the 70s, why doesnt the PN, appologize for the enviornmental destruction, they have caused this country which can never be undone.

But than again no applogies can undue, the absulute devistation caused to our country sides,and our villages. No applogies can take undue 70,000 empty flats.

Kevin Farrugia

Oct 17th 2009, 09:53

@ Randolph!

workers get demoted, transfered and discriminated during every govt. reign. And I condemn it.

But Black Monday and much more violence only happened during the Old Labour's Regime.
While I acknowledge Joe Muscats' change of attitude unlike his predecessors, he spoiled everything by saying that thugs used MLP and then threw it away! It was the other way round...MLP used thugs and the police....and then threw them away, cause otherwise, the party's image ould have been damaged even more.

And to make things clear, some of the people involved during those sad days, are still around the 2009 PL!!!

S.Mifsud

Oct 17th 2009, 09:50

What type of apology is EFA and the PN expecting? Should Joseph Muscat get on his knees infront of them? I believe the apology Muscat gave is exactly in line with the same apology the Church gave for what happened in the 1960s. The real problem is that whatever type or level of apology Muscat comes up with, this will never satisfy EFA and the PN. As they are not interested in closing up the matter and move ahead, but only interested in continuing benefiting from what happened 30 years ago to divert attention from present events, which are putting the present PN government in the bad light on all fronts. As they say, a drowning man clutches to every straw!

Randolph De Battista

Oct 17th 2009, 09:40

Has EFA ever made an apology to all those workers demoted, transfered and discriminated while he was in power?
Has he ever apologised to the Maltese citizens for when he declared that he knew who killed Raymond Caruana and Karen Grech?

Ghax jekk se nifthu l-kotba, ejja nifthuhom kollha!