FKNK says government pulled out of Ornis meeting on trapping

Johnny Xerri

Jul 17th 2009, 15:48

@ A Farrugia

Voters vote on revealed preference. So if hunting and bird protection is so important they would express themselves, unless the issue does not warrant enough importance.

A referendum was held in Malta, which included hunting. As you said people vote on a package and not on a single issue. The EU came with hunting included, so a yes vote for the EU included a yes for hunting.

Ok lets do a referendum, but if hunting gets aroung 15% then its a yes (since the top 13 hobbies on average have 15% participation). After all you can visit the National Statistics Office web site and have a look at the lifestyle survey in which most hobbies get an even lower following then hunting. Out of 13 hobbies hunting ranks 7th palce for men and 10th when considering males and females.

As for my figures being skewed. How sure are you of your we and the methods arrived at your totals. At least I am quoting credible sources, NSO and DOI.

What are you quoting Birdlife? If there credibility is at par with greenpeace (which their director worked for) then it a little fishy (or should I say tuna)

Johnny Xerri

Jul 17th 2009, 15:33

@ A farrugia

Building statistics on the fly and highly skewed?
My figures of 17000 hunters is an official figure of licenced hunters. The amount of crimes commited comes from birdlife Malta's news releases in 2007 419 birds were handed over to a museum in Malta. Given that 2007 was an open season year. I gave a margin of error by doubling these figures. That amounts to 1000/17000 x 100 = 5.88%. Lets say I want to be generous and multiply the handed over birds by 5 times that would be 2095/17000 x 100 = 12.32% (I am assuming anti hunting style that only 1 out of 5 birds are left to be found, the others are collected by the poacher).

Still 2095 birds would imply that at most 12.32% of hunters have broken the law (1 hunter per bird)


As for the MEP election, voters vote on revealed preference, in the election you mentioned a hunter contesting garnished 3119 first count votes. Whilst a well known anti hunting contestant only got 1180 (2009)

Sylvana Zarb Darmanin

Jul 17th 2009, 11:38

Mr/Ms A Farrugia, "I thought it was more than obvious, 20,000 hunters, 40,000 ? Well WE would be the rest of Malta, 400K - 20 or 40K = WE." You are so factual in your arguments that you have decided to include ME in your we!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Unbelievable!!! This is the substance of your writings!!

As for your Referendum suggestion, allow me to suggest a Referendum Question myself:

SHOULD EXTREMISTS WITH NON-FACTUAL ARGUMENTS BE ALLOWED IN MALTA?

Finally, I urge you to show your full name Sir/Madam!

Farrugia A

Jul 16th 2009, 23:31

johnny Xerri
You are building statistics on the fly and they are widely skewed. Are you 95% confident of those numbers ? Come on, you boast a masters in Economics, right, so you more than anyone should know what I am saying.

As regards MEP elections, please be cautious here, as you are mixing oil with water, with the obvious result that they never mix. Is it possible that you think, that most people will vote for their MEP based on hunting (or not) rather than country/EU policies and prospects ?

I believe in the first MEP elections there was a candidate fielded specifically for hunters, he never made it. This time round, no hunting organisation fielded a candidate - what a shame, with 17K + families one would expect that they would be on the plane to Brussels the next day.
Rather than bring MEP elections for a specific hunting issue, why dont you suggest a specific referendum question, one that is not affected by other policies/politics around it, something like - should hunting continue to be allowed in Mata?
Come on Mr. Xerri - with such a large hunting group & families it should be easy-right?

Johnny Xerri

Jul 16th 2009, 23:01

@ A Farrugia
Were was the so called 400000 in the MEP election having a nap, it seems that 'the we' was only a couple of votes towards you know who 'green anti hunting candidates'

So you warrent the dozen or so protected birds as enough to stop hunting. Considering the amount of hunters (17000) the amounts claimed by birdlife, which have been displayed hardly ever reach a dozen birds. that implies 12/17000 x 100 = 0.07% of hunters breaking the law. Even if the amount had to reach 1000birds that would still imply only 5.88% of the hunters. Considering the worst secenario how can one disregard 94% of the law abiding hunters?

@carmel James

Please read the artical agian it states that quail arrive from africa in-April-and are supplimented , that implies that a good proportion are actually wild birds.

As for raptor hunting the land owners aplly for a pest licence. They can then allow anyone to shoot the bird. So its ok to kill raptors in the UK since they are a hinderence to reared business birds? Money talks

It seeems that for you antis hunting is ok abroad, on whatever species, but not ok in Malta

Farrugia A

Jul 16th 2009, 20:13

Ms. Zarb Darmanin
Are you taking the mickey out of the readers of The Times or are you genuinely re-asking what has already been proven & recorded?

Johnny Xerri kindly substantiated the proof you requite. But also BLM, ALE, Police force with various raids in private residences, CABS, the law courts with sentences against various hunters and also against high officials of certain hunting organisations.

What more do you require?

Oh, about the WE, before I forget, I thought it was more than obvious, 20,000 hunters, 40,000 ? Well WE would be the rest of Malta, 400K - 20 or 40K = WE.

Sylvana Zarb Darmanin

Jul 16th 2009, 18:14

Mr / Ms A Farrugia, as expected, you are evading the actual argument. I once again urge you to sunbstantiate YOUR non-factual statements. Also readers should be informed as to who your "WE" includes. Please, Sir/Madam, show us, for once, that you are stating facts. Alternatively, admit that you are writing nonsense!!!

carmel james

Jul 15th 2009, 22:13

j xerri - the quail in spain are released birds from stocks whilst the shooting of specific predator species in britain is binded with certain conditions and is to be carried out by the land managers. And land managers have an interest in shooting these species because they regard these predators as a hindrance to other species. they dont shoot them to stuff them as trophies.

And in my opinion for the FKNK to move forward they need to start being pro-active and forget the traditional trapping and hunting. they must emulate birdlife into proposing new and stricter hunting laws. That way they will lose something but might gain soemthing else.

And musnt remain obsessed with Birdlife.

MARK MIFSUD BONNICI

Jul 15th 2009, 21:22

How very convenient, Birdlfie presents a report aimed at criticizing the FKNK's on sustainable trapping on the day that all the members of this laughable committee fail to attend.

Believe it or not the committee was meant to take a vote on the continuation of trapping

The EU commission in Malta says Malta, similar to any other EU country, can derogate for the trapping of songbirds. Yet because its members do not know whether they are coming or going they would rather not attend. Their taking any decision might not be in line with the plans of those in Government that appointed them. If there ever was a true definition of uselessness the Ornis Committee certainly spells it out.

How does DR. Gonzi ever expect to be credible. Considering hunting and trapping are part of MEPA's responsibilities does he intend to reform these too.

There are close to 20,000 hunters and trappers waiting to see some serious changes to the way they have been treated by the PN!!!

Does Dr. Gonzi want to wait for another election to evaluate how hunters and trappers feel! This decision is finally his.

Chris Finch

Jul 15th 2009, 20:56

What cheek from the FKNK. Have they forgotten that only recently THEY themselves boycotted the ORNIS committee as it didn't suit their agenda.

Now it seems that it does suit their agenda and are complaining that other members had more important things to do than pander to a few people's hobby.

Which is it? You want to be part of it then you have to accept decisions it makes that you dont like, otherwise don't attend at all.

Andrew Gatt

Jul 15th 2009, 19:07

The Ornis Committee has been a useless farce from the very day it was constituted. To date, Government has either used it as a convenient screen to hide behind, or has ignored its recommendations completely and done its own thing! The cancellation of this meeting at the last minute, in this way, is unprofessional in the extreme. It is a gross disservice.

And what a coincidence, by the way! Just the day before, Birdlife spew out another of their fairy-tale reports (no prizes for guessing what the content and tone was), and hey presto! another meeting not held.

WHO IS RUNNING THIS COUNTRY??

Farrugia A

Jul 15th 2009, 18:53

Mr. Johnny Xerri & Ms. Zarb Darmanin

I guess the proof was cordially supplied by Mr. Xerri himself. First he asks for proof then he, himself, writes, "BLM, never produced more then a doozen birds in any season"

Cheers.
PS. And those dozen birds are just the tip of the iceberg, there are hundreds more that are not found by BLM - but thankfully ALE find a number of them stuffed and "proudly" displayed in the glass showcase.

Johnny Xerri

Jul 15th 2009, 18:51

@ A Farrugia.

A candidate who promised to fight & support hunters cause was elected as an MEP
A candidate who promised to fight & support the anti hunting only got only a pityful amount.

Goes to show, either antihunting are in majority but hunting is not on a priority, or they are in minority.

Either way they show that there cause is worthless, since they dont have a representative, never had and most probably never will.

As I said no law will stop me from hunting, because if hunting is stopped in Malta all I will do is either go on a holiday & spend my money in another country. Or emigrate and that will be the cherry on the cake, having taxpayers, paying for my education up to my economics masters degree only to give my service in another country.

When will birdlife publish the wages they get?
How they are funded?
Their qualifications?

They have never replied, which for me implies that they:
Couldn't find employment
Are after a well paid job &
the reason they operate is not bird protection.

Sylvana Zarb Darmanin

Jul 15th 2009, 18:20

I can see this as an orchestrated effort to help BLM! I strongly believe that Ornis Appointees are duty-bound to be present at such meetings. If they are occupied elsewhere, maybe the Government should appoint individuals who are prepared to do their duty.

Mr/Ms A Farrugia, you are throwing statements in the air without substantiating them! It is about time that you present readers with proof of what you write! I challenge you, Sir/Madam, to furnish us with concrete details. Furthermore, you might enlighten readers as to who your "WE" (judge hunters, etc.) includes. Alternatively, keep commenting the way you have always done and further confirm what the pro-hunting have been insisting, i.e. THE ANTI'S ARE EXPERTS IN NON-FACTUAL ARGUMENTS AND ACCUSATIONS!

Johnny Xerri

Jul 15th 2009, 17:42

The PM in the famous secret meeting at busket said that he feels that hunters&trappers do not trust him & nor does birdlife.Really?

He further repeats at nausia that hunting has been stoped because of the Finland case.

What is trapping being paralled to, Mr PM?
Malta's spring hunting?(The only parallel that trapping has is to spring hunting, i.e. both were promised prior to referendum)

At A Farrugia, again, get the proof.
Moreover, so what if someone shoots a protected bird of prey? He should be punished & that it. BUT YOU CANNOT BLAME 17000 HUNTERS when birdlife themselves never produced more then a doozen birds in any season.
By the way illegalities occur all over the EU. Just have a look here.
http://www.sportinggun.co.uk/news/252235/Police_fail_to_tackle_wildlife_crime_across_UK.html
& how governments react
http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/news/342137/Police_to_stop_monitoring_hunts_after_new_guidance_issued.html

I have never killed a protected bird, but if the season is baned I will shoot a lot of protected birds in the UK (not in Malta), hunt quail in spring in Spain not in Malta

Follow the links as to how I will do this

http://www.shooting.sh/shoot_quail_span.shtml

http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/news/341596/New_guidance_to_help_control_protected_predators.html

Come next spring & i will either be killing quail in spain or raptors in the UK

If-hats-how-you-want-it-thats-how-you-get-it

Farrugia A

Jul 15th 2009, 16:49

@R.Sammut
According to my reasoning? Mr. Sammut I was just repeating what Nic Vassallo said, nothing else - so take it up with him please.

Thanks

r sammut

Jul 15th 2009, 16:35

Why all the absenteeism? Do members smell something fishyor are they being directed to drag the issue on and on! Is this the way of doing things by the all ‘dialogu’ Government?

@Farrugia A
According to your reasoning, as the Maltese society has also its fair share of criminals, then all nationals are not to be trusted!!!

Farrugia A

Jul 15th 2009, 16:00

....as well.

Farrugia A

Jul 15th 2009, 15:40

Nic Vassallo

You are of course correct, but it works both ways. We also judge hunters, FKNK and other well known apologists about what you do rather than say, you know, the rhetoric about we obey the law, we do not shoot at protected birds, we do not shoot during closed season, we do not destroy, we do not make illegal RTOs etc.

Just to repeat what I already said...it works both ways and hence the government

Joe Camilleri

Jul 15th 2009, 15:36

The Ornis Committee was a smokescreen from the begining and its sole purpose is to accomodate BLM.

Nicholas.Vassallo

Jul 15th 2009, 14:58

N.Vassallo
I would like to thank FKNK for informing us of what is happening in detail. The P.M. use to say "Do not judge me on what I say, but on what I do" We have to keep this in our minds for ever.

godfrey pisani

Jul 15th 2009, 14:33

unbelievable how thing work on these gov boards when there are hot decisions to take place . And as usual we remain in the dark .