Friday, 6th February 2009
Message of the Church on homosexuality (1)
Fr Renè Camilleri (February 3) referred to the Xarabank programme that tackled the issue of homosexuality, following the excommunication of three gay persons from the Catholic Church.
Fr Camilleri felt that the Church was not fairly represented on the programme and its voice was not given enough coverage.
Perhaps he needs to be reminded that around 40 to 60 per cent of people are regular churchgoers, giving the Church ample opportunity to spread its message, not just once or twice a year, but 52 times should it see fit, without the possibility of rebuttal by the gay community.
It has its own radio station and newspaper and also uses these to proliferate its teachings on homosexuality - services which are way beyond the means of the Malta Gay Rights Movement's budget. One third of students attend Church schools where, as made clear by the Archbishop on Xarabank, gay people in same-sex relationships are not welcome to teach. One wonders with what audacity the Church can claim that it is being treated unfairly and against which community the bias actually lies.
I would also query in what way discussing excommunication from the Catholic Church and challenging its position on same-sex attractions and relationships could in any way be considered a threat to "the basics of society and its survival". Perhaps Fr Camilleri could enlighten us further as to what he might be alluding to.
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Comments
Yet, many cannot or don't want to understand these fact, unless he/she realizes that he is on the wrong path to His Kingdom and we are all oblidged to enlight these persons with the true facts."
My reply is yes the church may adjust things such as those that had been made wrongly by church (or even a pope), but what is written in the Holy Bible, especially what Christ teached during his time and which was written in the Bible, these things would never change, even after another 5000 years later. So what I quoted in my reply to you, was exactly what the Bible said about 2000 years ago in Romans Chapter 1 Verses 24 to 27] and also 1 Cor. chapter 6 Verse 10 or 1 Timity chapter 1 verse 10 and then discussed further and can be found in Chapter 13; para 1 of Persona Humana – Second Vatican Council, during Pope Paul VI who approved this Declaration on Certain Questions Concerning Sexuality Ethics), and not 200 years ago.
I take it you don't think much of St. Thomas Aquinas then. Pray do tell us whether the church has had to review its claim that the male of the species is the only creative mover in procreation seeing that reason showed Faith that female mammals produce ova therefore there cannot be one without the other. So much for creativity being a male prerogative! History and the church have come a long way. Faith readjusts dogmas otherwise we would still be thinking of all Jews as Deicides , women as mutilated males, black people as inferior, execution and torture as necessary for social order, that despotism is a GOD given right and that democracy is evil incarnate. Leave theonomy out of it please, particularly where the secular state with tax payers money funds the payroll of any institution!
I'll grant that the church will take a couple of hundred of years to accept Reason's facts and readjust its stand (ask Copernicus, Galileo and a host of other scientist before and after them) but as history tells us adjust it will. Overwhelming proof is difficult to deny.
Courage sir, Our Catholic God is Loving and just God.
I don't understand why the church gives the impression that homosexuals are a treath to our families. I can see no valid reason. Our families are under treath because of a rat-race to make ends meet, materialism, lack of preparation before marrying etc. Why pointing fingers at homosexuals?
Just today I heard a teenager on the bus say he doesn't trust friends, and that his real friends are the 'playstation, TV and DVD player'. Incredibly his mother approved what he was saying. I think these are things we should really worry about rather than finding scapegoats
That's why God has abandoned them to degrading passions; why their women have turned from natural intercourse to unnatural practices and why their menfolk have given up natural intercourse to be consumed with passion for each other, men doing shameless things with men and getting appropriate reward for their perversion see .....” [Romans Chapter 1 Verses 24 to 27] and also 1 Cor. chapter 6 Verse 10 or 1 Timity chapter 1: verse 10]
It also states that it rests with the Bishops, the priests and their collaborators to alert the faithful against the erroneous opinions often expressed in books, reviews, letters in the press or through the media, or in some public gatherings/meetings, before they would end up deeply in such acts.. TAKEN FROM>>>>>>(Chapter 13 para 1 of Persona Humana – Second Vatican Council – Pope Paul VI who approved this Declaration on Certain Questions Concerning Sexuality Ethics).
Instead of helping gays with these kind of arguments you make the issue really pathetic.
Stop trying to portrait homosexuality as if its natural. This does not mean that gays are not human beings that love and suffer like the rest. Nor it is an illness.
However, gays and lesbians if they are to have the respect of the others, should STOP trying to impose to the church what they want. Please stop trying to disort the words of Jesus giving the most colourful interpretations.
The church will never accept homosexuals that are not ready to follow her rules, Don't like ? its your problem join another faith.
Either you believe in the church of Christ or there is no place for you within it. I can't really understand why you want to belong to the catholic faith when you don't accept its teachings ? Once again stop colourful interpretations if you want such interpretations join the anglican church if it still functions!!!!!!
More than 41 States in the USA singed the Defence of Marriage Acts (DOMAs), which define marriage solely as the union between a man and a woman. Is this contributed to the mystery of faith?
And since 2001, five nations - the Netherlands, Belgium, Spain, Canada and South Africa - have legalized gay marriage. Do you seriously believe the other 39 European countries and the remaining four continents are not legislating in favour of same sex rights due to divine intervention!!
In answer to your three questions and in the same order in which you asked them
1 We are not trying to change the Church,though it would be all to the good if it did see it's way to the believe that all men are created equal.We simply do not want the Church to interfere unfairly with our civil rights.
2.We mention the Roman Catholic Church because it is the predominant Religion on these Islands, but our comments apply equally to all Religions who would interfere with equal rights .
3.We do not expect a religious service. That is why we expect the Government to stop denying us our rights to a lawful civil same sex union . The same law should apply to all.
on the same line, if one is to work with an entity that is owned by the Church, well, one cannot expect to lead a life that goes against its principles. just like a police officer isn't expected to openly lead a life that dishonours the uniform s/he wears.
now whether or not one follows the Church's teachings is a choice.
Would it help to convince you if I told you that sexually I am well developed.I was educated for the most part by Catholic priests and nuns abroad in above average schools. My habits are as clean as driven snow.The only bad habit I will confess to is that I smoke,but that is being dealt with. My parents were the most examplary of people and taught me by their example, and by the way, I'm gay.
That is why God left them to their filthy enjoyments and the practices with which they dishonor their own bodies since they given up Divine truth for a lie and have worshiped and served creatures instead of the Creator, Who is blessed forever.
That's why God has abandoned them to degrading passions; why their women have turned from natural intercourse to unnatural practices and why their menfolk have given up natural intercourse to be consumed with passion for each other, men doing shameless things with men and getting appropriate reward for their perversion” [Romans Chapter 1 Verses 24 to 27] and also 1 Cor. chapter 6 Verse 10 or 1 Timity chapter 1: verse 10]
But this is transitory or at least not incurable; and they are definitively such because of some kind of innate instinct or a pathological constitution judged to be incurable.” Yet, it explains “they can be treated with understanding, tender love towards them and in the hope to overcome their difficulties, if not its not the end of the world.”So unless we consider these fact, one should study the dangers that this could pose to our faith and to society. [Sacred Congrecation for the Doctrine of the Faith (section 8 para 2 and 4 ) – Considerations and Proposals during an Audience by Pope John Paul II on 28 March, 2003]
What we want is for the State to give us equal rights and that includes same sex unions. It is a right enjoyed by most of you . At the risk of repeating myself the Church/Religion and State should be separate and as long as the Church does not interfere in the workings of the State it can set it's own rules and agenda for it's followers. It is then up to the individual to choose the path he/she wishes to take.At the moment it is not a level playing field .
I used to beleive that. That, however, seems to be what the RC church says when trying to patch things up. The reality, as we can see from many of the members of the faith, and it s leaders, is that now homosexuality isnt just a sin- it is also a threat! Yes thats right- a threat!
So now they not only have encouraged people to not like gay people, they have also told them to be scared of them as they are a...THREAT! That word can lead to many other thing other than gay bashing. How is it possible that these leaders of a faith, who must all have been to university many times, are not awear that that word is going to make certain people now feel like they should go on some sort of mission to save the world from this " threat" ? Please......you can say the church does good for the world....but you can t say it is not doing a lot of wrong too.
Why do they try to change the Church? To suit them?
Why do they target solely the Catholic Church, and not other religions?
Do gays expect to have a traditional ceremony and marry in a church?
Can someone please provide an answer to these questions?
What the homosexuals are insisting is for the RC church to rescind from its teaching. But if they do not agree to the RC church philosophy they could continue with their life either by excluding themselves from the church or remaining in its folds but live in perpetual sin. After all everyone is free to choose their way of life but it seems that some do not wish to be responsible for doing so.
If you do not agree to the rules do not expect the association to change its statute to compensate for your whim! Do believers in other faiths such as, Islam, Judaism Hinduism, Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism and Shinto, have a solution? If yes you have an option.
Marginalization of the individual in society is very rarely, if ever, based from a religious conviction. It is often inflict because of prejudice, fear or misunderstanding.
What annoys me most about that comment is that there are many priests who talk about how Jesus would hang out and befriend the people who were look down on by society of his time. If you look at who His friends were then you would know what i mean. Therefore isnt the church's principles all about love and respect?
Plus- as i said before, homosexuality exists in nature. So the church needs to either stop living in the 1500s or stop making a fool of itself.
It s a shame. The church can do such great things, and then such horrible ones all at the same time. Why can't It just do as jesus said and love everyone equally.
Now, if the church wants to behave this way, it could at least stay out of politics! How dare they expect all institutions to be so horrible to innocent citizens.
so egc, do you expect a religious entity (be it Catholic, Muslim, Protestant what have you) to go against its teachings to accommodate others? I'm sorry I don't think so.
just like i don't expect a muslim entity to employ someone who wants to work with a crucifix round his neck, i don't expect the catholic church to go against its teachings to employ someone who is either openly gay, or someone who is straight but openly poggut as we well know it in maltese or someone who speaks in favour of abortion. it simply doesn't make sense.
and mind you, before anyone jumps on me, it doesn't necessarily mean i agree with the Church's stand on the gay issue. i'm only discussing on basic principle.
"Therefore the church is not being discriminatory towards gays when it says it will not employ them in any church institution."
You re kidding right? It is no one's duty to remain silent about their sexuality. If you teach in a school, who cares what your sexuality is!? If you are a lawyer, doctor, architect or whatever, there is no reason to think that it is your civil duty to not live the life that you deserve.
Not employing someone due to their sexuality is the actual definition of descriminating against homosexuals. What are you saying?
It is clear that the Church teaches against the homosexual act. As such, it can't be accused of discriminating against gays for the sole reason that any person applying to work for an institution run by the Church knows its regulations. Needless to say, every institution has its principles, and as long as they are not hidden, then there's nothing wrong with having an agenda. Fr Gouder made it clear that it would treat in the same way any other 'straight' cohabiting person.
What I would like to draw your attention to, is the fact that in the last week or so, there was a revision of the anti-discrimanatory Bill in South Australia... The Church retained the right to refuse to employ gay teachers.
Why? Because it doesn't make sense that an institution goes against the principles it teaches.
Brave are those that come out to be counted,sadly that's still not possible for most.