Should couples live together before marriage, young MP asks

jane hughes deguara

Dec 4th 2008, 11:12

well done owen i will back you 100%.. i think its a good idea, as i am sure a lot of other people agree also... once again WELL DONE

M Mifsud

Nov 27th 2008, 08:17

@G. Curmi
The Goverment has the right to influence people.

It does the same with
anti smoking campaign
HIV awareness campaigns
anti littering campaigns
Political propagandas

Do all the above influence personal choice ?

It is time that the church values are not applied to whole population as if they were the de facto law. I think increasing awareness about this matter is positive.

To really get to know some one you need to live them.

G. Curmi

Nov 24th 2008, 14:39

@ Sinclair Calleja and Alistair Farrugia

Thank you for finally confirming my point. It took quite a while, but in the end, you provided the responses that I had hoped to elicit. Marriage and cohabitation are personal matters of personal choice regarding human relationships into which no government should stick its nose. They certainly are not commercial arrangements.

Yet, MP Owen Bonnici proposes to make it official government policy "to encourage young people to live together for some time before they are married" - to "try out" different partners until the "right one" comes along; in the same way that we conduct commercial transactions. I would be willing to wager that there is no government on earth that actually does this.

People enter into cohabitation because they are unwilling or unable to make a commitment and because they believe that it provides them with an easy way out when the going gets tough - which often happens in most human relationships.

marie mercieca

Nov 20th 2008, 20:57

i believe that rather than encouraging people to cohabitate, we should encourage young people to live on their own without being under the mother's wing until they get married, so they can grow up and know really what life has to offer.

PJ Mifsud

Nov 20th 2008, 14:57

Is cohabitation for prospective married couples the best proposal Owen Bonnici can come up with? I wonder how this could solve, in any way, the ever-growing number of separations that are scarring and blighting the moral and social fabric of our nation.

In order to help young couples to understand their partner before taking upon themselves the full weight of the marriage committment, a better preparation during their engagement period is absolutely vital. Knowing each other well doesn't necessitate cohabitation but finding the right and enough time to express and learn mutual views.

Increasing the number of cohabitants on the island will not strengthen society's social fabric by one iota.

Alex Ellul

Nov 19th 2008, 16:19

I always had the impression that marriage is about love. I must have been wrong all the way, me and my backward, anti-progressive brain. The liberals are now telling me that marriage is just for convenience, like driving a car, trying it out, giving it some good shakes on a bumpy road, then sell it second hand if you don't like it. It must have been the love stories I read or saw on the big screen in the old days that gave me this wrong impression.

Sinclair Calleja

Nov 19th 2008, 16:19

In any case, the issue at hand here is whether the state should encourage couples to cohabit before they get married or not. I do not agree with this. This is like asking: should we encourage people to get married or not? There is no need to ask such questions. People already know they have the option to cohabit, and many are already doing so, while many are not. People are intelligent enough to decide for themselves, given their particular situation. At least, cohabiting is, at the time of writing, not against the law. The question we should be asking, rather, is: should we have a legal framework for couples to liquidate their marriage? Because while we have the freedom to cohabit, we do not have the freedom to remarry once a marriage breaks down. That is what the politicians should be discussing in my opinion.

Sinclair Calleja

Nov 19th 2008, 15:58

@ G.Curmi

I hate to make comparisons like the one you're making, since you cannot compare marriage to either driving or buying a suit. But, if you want to insist, I can say that, by law, retail stores must have a return policy applicable for a number of days, in case you happened to make an impulse buy, or the product is not to your satisfaction. Of course, such comparison is ridiculous just as much as your comparison, the point being that once we start comparing marriage to buying a product, getting a service or training for a license, your arguments are always on the losing end. I wouldn't go down this road if I were you.

On the other hand, if we just take marriage for what it is, it is obvious to me that living with the person before getting married can only serve as an eye-opener. For better or for worse. Might it not be the case that cohabitating couples are emotionally more committed than married ones, considering that having no legal status to bind them, their bond being truly made up of respect and love towards each other, not marred by a legal obligation?

Alistair Farrugia

Nov 19th 2008, 15:52

@G.Curmi

You're missing a key point. In all your comparisons, you failed to consider the fact that in a cohabiting relationship, both parties AGREE to cohabit and both stand to gain or lose from such an agreement. In the case of your examples, you're expecting someone to forgo his right to enjoy property in order for you to enjoy it yourself.

If you treat relationships and having a partner/spouse/husband/wife as owning a property, then I seriously fail to see why you even bothered reply to these messages! Being in a relationship is something than can hardly be compared to other commitments, let alone to using someone else's property to 'test it', as you seem to imply!!

And now, my two cents. I doubt extensive studies would reveal a higher prevalence of divorce/separation amongst couples who cohabit before marriage when compared to a 'control' group that didn't cohabit. Moreover, one should consider that cohabiting couples would tend to have a different mindset/belief system from those who don't, and this might influence their decision to divorce or separate after marriage, unlike others who are religious and would opt against divorce irrespective of abuse or infidelity for instance.

G. Curmi

Nov 19th 2008, 14:47

@ Sinclair Galea & Nicky Buttigieg

When you drive with an L-plate, there is an experienced teacher there with you in the car at all times guiding you and holding your hand. Who will do that for you in a cohabitational relationship - your parents or the other party's relatives?

Cohabitation is generally an unspoken admission of an inability to make a commitment. Imagine walking into a clothing store and asking the owner if you could take out a suit for a period of time explaining that, after having used it, you will come back to pay for it if you decide to keep it or return it to the store owner if you decide that you don’t like it. If you know of a clothing store like this, I’d be interested in giving it a try. Cheap way to stay fashionable.

BTW, Mr. Buttigieg, it is unclear if your comment “coming from a Nationalist you can take this as a double compliment” is directed at me. If it is, you are wrong. I am not “a Nationalist” nor have I ever been one; and please don’t misconstrue my comments as compliments for Mr. Bonnici. They aren't.

Sinclair Calleja

Nov 18th 2008, 20:05

@ Mary Brincat

There is no set defined period. Each couple progresses using its own specific pace. Some people marry after just a few months, others take years before they're ready to take the plunge. Nothing can guarantee a long-lasting happy marriage, not even living together before marriage. However, it is the "living separate from your parents" part that is most important in my opinion, with "living with your future spouse" taking on secondary importance. Alas, many couples are still entering marriage whereby they are not only faced by marital challenges, but moreso by the challenges that come from not having one's parents take care of household issues. This might prove to be too much to grasp at one go for some people, so a gradual step by step change in state will help a lot in lowering stress levels!

Mary Birncat

Nov 18th 2008, 16:19

@all
How long a couple should live with each others so they can understand each others and then get through happy- lasting marriage?

Nicky Buttigieg

Nov 18th 2008, 13:02

@G.Curmi

Incredible but true, what O. Bonnici is proposing is tantamount to taking driving lessons before getting your licence.

What you are intimating is to give someone who has never driven, a driving licence after doing the theory examination....with all the consequences that entails.

Owen - coming from a Nationalist you can take this as a double compliment - WELL DONE!!

Sinclair Calleja

Nov 18th 2008, 11:42

@ G.Curmi

Your comparison of living together before marriage to driving a car without a license is logically unapplicable. Living together before marriage is not like driving a car without a license, but, rather, like driving a car with an L-plate, with the intension of sitting for the test when you feel prepared.

While it is true that there is a correlation between living together before marriage and the divorce rate of the couples in question, people should not be regarded as mere statistics. Each case has to be considered individually, and some people feel that living together before taking the big step is very helpful, in the sense that rather than having a big bang (i.e. you're put directly on the steering wheel without any sort of training), they would already know what it means to: pay their own bills, do house chores and cleaning, stick up with each other even when they're not in the best of moods, best of looks, or when they're sick, and to remain together (hopefully) even when things are not plain sailing. If they fail these tests, then it would be of no use proceeding further. Prevention is better than cure.

Gloria Farrugia

Nov 18th 2008, 09:06

@Christine Grech

QUOTE@"what will living together before marrage solve???"

Let me enlighten you - it shows a person's real traits of character, some of which would go undetected in a traditional relationship. It also makes you grow up and if it doesn't work out you are not stuck in a failed-marriage.

Personally, if I had married the person I thought was the one, I would probably be separated today. We looked like the perfect couple but living together proved we were not really made for each other.

Instead I married 5 years ago after having lived with with my husband for 2 years before taking the step. Unlike the first live in this one proved to be built on solid foundations.

I will encourage anyone to do this as, from personal experience, the benefits are enormous. If it works - well and good - go for it. If it does not you are not another marriage breakdown statistic.

Ivan Sciberras

Nov 17th 2008, 23:18

I am amazed how ideas that have been proven not to work elsewhere make the headlines here in Malta. It has been proven sociologically (by ivy-league universities - mind you - and not some "closed-minded" cleric in Malta) that not only is pre-marital cohabitation a recipe for a disaster later on, but the longer the couple has cohabitated, the greater are the chances of a marriage breakdown later on. In the U.S., it has been shown that couples who cohabitate for more than five years before their eventual wedding, had a 90% chance of a divorce. Onorevoli Bonnici, check your facts before coming up with such stupid "novelties."

E.Vella

Nov 17th 2008, 22:22

To Ray Gatt and Co. ...The Church looks to the dignity of the person and not to atheistic and sincretistic ideals. Divorce is not wrong for Jesus or the Church said so but becuase from himself is against human dignity.

From a philosophical point of view; The state must always look to the common good and not what you think is right for you....but what is right for everyone....The state has the obligation to protect his citizens. This comes because marriage is not a private institution but a public, social and institution transmission of human life.

Is Cohabitation the answer for a strong marriage? No it is not for then you are sending the message that life, first try and than make it true...Imagine sex....all adoloscence during puberty do make sex to know by fact what does it mean a sexual intercourse....or when speaking of drugs give them the ecstasy to try what does it mean.....you went from extreme to the other....and neither if the church is 10% she must continue speak in favour of human dignity....

I tell Mr.Bonnici that if the Church principles are not his principles next time must not swear on a crucifix

G. Curmi

Nov 17th 2008, 21:08

Mr. Owen Bonnici,

My 13-year-old nephew, who like others his age is raring to go, is just dying with eagerness to begin driving a car. Would you mind very much if he borrowed your car for a while to try his hand at it? If he likes it, he promises to take the necessary driving tests to get his driver's licence. Do you think that your insurance company would mind? What was that you say? No way? Oh, I understand.

Oh yes, I nearly forgot. My nephew says that if he finds driving a car boring and he decides not to get his driver’s licence after all, he might like to have a go at flying an airplane without a licence. Who knows? After wrecking a car or two or an airplane or two, he might just find the right car or airplane with which he is compatible.

As an MP, would you please consider sponsoring some ground-breaking legislation to allow my nephew to try his hands at these two activities? He is itching to hear your reply.

Christine Attard

Nov 17th 2008, 17:48

What will living together before marrage solve??? I don't know how these ideas crop up?? DId owen live with his wife before he married???? The only thing that is lacking is real preperation for the big step as many are more focused on reception and souveniers than their partner.

Pierre Agius

Nov 17th 2008, 16:41

How about living with many partners before we decide? Pity I'm already married!

G. Fenech

Nov 17th 2008, 15:29

I am 28 years old, and have been living alone for over 4 years. What is all this rubbish about it being a bad influence, and that people should not do it? I have lived alone and also with partners. There is nothing wrong about it! Why should we keep on babying young adults and let them suck on their thumb till they get married? I see people move out of the house for the first time, and they have no idea what to expect. No idea how to manage money, pay bills, and more importantly, actually live with someone! The same way one needs work experience and not only theory to do their job right, people need to live on their own steam before making a commitment and getting married!

And if you take a look around you, its normally the couples the have been dating since they were 14, and never really experienced life that get separated!

Leave religion out of this one, and just let your kids stretch their legs, i'm sick seeing mummy's boys still go see mummy for food after they get married.

Ray Gatt

Nov 17th 2008, 15:18

Yes to cohabiting, yes to divorce and NO TO THE CHURCH STICKING IT'S NOSE IN STATE BUSINESS. Just in case the church still believes that Malta is over 90% catholic, they are very mistaken or else know it but won't accept it. I applaud Owen Bonnici and I'm a follower of the other party.

R Buhagiar

Nov 17th 2008, 14:37

JEEZ, in this country. Why should you put all this with religion and political aspects. The reality is whatever you say, that living together before marriage is becoming more and more common in Malta. Sorry to say whether you like it or not. This is the same as having the woman working, Nowadays whether you like or not, you have to., especiall y for young couples. This is progress, whether good or bad, you have to accept how the world is developing.
Yes I agree, getting married before living together is the IDEAL situation, but this world is not longer an ideal world. Maybe it s even far from it

Aimee Fenech

Nov 17th 2008, 14:35

I think all youths should leave home and live on their own, with their friends and/or partner, when i moved out of the family home and travelled to the Isle of Man 2 and a half years ago, I lived for about 10months in student house and of course I learnt a lot. I felt enpowered because I was in control of what I ate, how and when to do my chores, managing my finances. Its not easy having bills but let me tell you, there is no greater pleasure than waking up knowing that you have chosen to be where you are and you are truly in control of your life.

When you live with your parents, because they love you, and because you have lived with them all your life there is a lack of independence.
All young people should get there efforts together, rent a flat or house with friends so that they can enjoy and learn from their experiences.

Be courageous and learn to be independent!

Edward Mifsud

Nov 17th 2008, 14:15

@M.Mercieca M. Micallef et al

Unlike you gurus, I have first hand experience.......and believe me its an experience I recommend to anyone. I had three live-ins and married the third one. The first two would have been such a mistake. Instead of happily married I would have been in a separation case.

G. Curmi

Nov 17th 2008, 14:08

How interesting for MP Owen Bonnici to suggest that "it was time to consider encouraging young couples to live together for some time before they are married." Mr. Owen Bonnici, at the risk of asking a personal question, would you happen to own any vacant houses or apartments? Please allow me to apply the same approach that you suggested regarding marriage to renting or buying a vacant house or apartment. Would you consider allowing me to occupy a house or apartment, say for a few years, to try it out at no cost to me before I actually commit to purchasing it from you? If you do not own any vacant houses or apartments, would you at least consider allowing me to drive your car (also at no cost to me) for a while to try it out before I actually buy it from you? Failing that, would you please consider allowing me to use for a few months/years (again, at no cost to me) any possession that you might have so I can try it out before I buy it from you? Just wondering.

Sarah Mueller

Nov 17th 2008, 13:15

the unwanted babies are coming from wrong and to less education at school and at home!! not from giving young adults the freedom to decide! and when I see young girls in paceville dressed like ..... then I am missing words and I feel sad because these girls seem to get to less love and encouragement from their families because else they would not search for love dressed like this! But this is education - this is the family!

Sarah Mueller

Nov 17th 2008, 13:09

Of course should couples live together before marriage! I would like to know my partner in different situations before I decide to live with him the rest of my life! How many married couples expected it to be different to live together? Parents protect your children from marriage until you are absolutely sure they can live save and happy with their partner! And Mrs M. Micallef: did you really thought about this matter or is it just your opinion because it always was like that??

deb bugeja

Nov 17th 2008, 12:54

@ Peter Grech

The future cannot be forseen. Couples can live with each other for years to see if they are meant for each other and then decide to get married. After getting married, they could easily have trouble in their marraige. I think both couples has to work very hard to strengthen their relationship in order to keep a good marraige.

I think the mentality of the people are changing and that is why we are having many separations. Some people wants not just the cake but also the icing on the cake.

Ramon Casha

Nov 17th 2008, 12:52

I agree with Owen Bonnici. Apart from anything else, here in Malta more than other countries, many people move straight out of their parents' home (where mum still washes and irons their clothes) into a married life. The experience of having to take care of themselves is already a good thing. Sharing that experience with someone else is another.

David Magro

Nov 17th 2008, 11:22

Good comments from Owen. We need politicians who are pro-active. We are living in 2008. Anyone has an idea of the number of seperations ? Weddings are becoming a racket...the aftermath is the real problem and Owen, as a lawyer, has the touch with the reality.
What about Heritage Malta....once again selling our silver....this is crazy ! Who is accountable ?

J Borg

Nov 17th 2008, 11:18

This is a good idea. So they will get used to the electricity bills before marriage :)

Joe Galea

Nov 17th 2008, 11:13

@Miriam Maria Micallef: It is hilarious the way you think and argue. If people cohabitate there will be less divorce and separtion becasue if the couple has to separate they do so before getting married!!
@Jake Mamo: can you explain why many marriages are failing because couples which marry find out that they can't stick each other when living together? maybe a research on this would be appropriate.
Owen Bonnici just made a statement and I am sure he is not imposing anything. The point is that he could have suggested legal implications of cohabitation to promote this. It is an individual choice to do what s/he wants before getting married.
I cohabitate and I am definitely much happier than many couples who are married. The most important thing is to share everything like a married couples so that burdens are shared equally. The rest is personal chemistry. If the chemistry is not right between a couple, by cohabitating, this issue surfaces out quickly. Cohabitation matures people and stops them from being anymore mummy & daddy's children.

Kenneth Cassar

Nov 17th 2008, 11:01

Whoever wants to live with his partner before marriage is already doing so, and this should be nobody's business but the couple's themselves.

However, I do find the proposal to encourage couples to live together before marriage worrying (even though good-intentioned). People who need a push to live outside their parent's home are definitely not prepared enough for independent life.

joseph borg

Nov 17th 2008, 10:58

What a load of hipocrates.

Gerald Fenech

Nov 17th 2008, 10:44

Knowing Owen personally for a number of years makes me sure that he only has the country's best interests at heart. And as usual he is pilloried by the conservative and bigoted brigade who are still living in the 1950's or even before that. Let's go ahead and tackle these issues head-on. And the items on St John's and HM are also important as Pamela Hansen rightly pointed out.

Joe Galea

Nov 17th 2008, 10:38

It is the real solution to the separation and divorce issues whgich are continuously increasing. By co-habitating prior to marriage will give the chance to the couple to see if they are truly compatible with each other. Living with a person is a total different story than meeting him/her for a few hours a day/week. Well done to Owen Bonnici. Modern progressive thinking is needed in this narrow-minded fake religious country.

J.Grech

Nov 17th 2008, 10:12

I don't agree. when you are not married everything goes down well because the partner is not all yours yet. When married you take her/him for granted.

H Gatt

Nov 17th 2008, 09:18

This is article is indeed hilarious. Everyone is entitled to their opinion both pro and con but the basic and unescapable point is that cohabitation is not illegal in Malta. So to me all this hullabaloo sounds more like this young MP is trying to make a name for himself and in the process win hundreds (or thousands) of easy votes from people who support his views.

C. Portelli

Nov 17th 2008, 08:00

Whilst polictician should keep out of such decisions, I can see that such a idea could end up saving the nation money, less divorce headaches and avoiding the sad and difficult problems for kids that may have been borne as a result of "a bad marriage". What is wrong in being sure of what you want in life ? Polictics and religion must never be allowed to mix. Surely one must not forget that the important issue here is that freedom of choice must be preserved? Could it be that those that disagree with Mr O. Bonnici may seems to be be trapped with that old fashioned Maltese pride mixed with religious believe which plays upon their mind thereby hindering a reasonable approach if such a situation arose around them?

Victor Vella

Nov 17th 2008, 07:45

I tend to agree with what Joseph Schembri regarding the EIA's asfor the civil service being creative the situation has allways been that a cxivil servant makes a suggestion and then it is passed up corrupted on the way up and arrives on the minister's desk and regarded through political eyes and not through what is right or wrong.I have allready said it here once that some single mothers are in reality much better off then hard woprking couples simply because they are not really single but in fact registered as such to gain the benefits being handed out.

Alex Ellul

Nov 16th 2008, 22:46

@Peter Grech: You can also suggest to your kids to drive a car without a driving licence and without the road rules. Its fun. However responsibility is the name of the game. Only those who act responsibly survive. Those who act in every which way but straight get hurt. Same in society and in the family.

For many years we have been told to go out and have sexual fun but be careful by using condoms. So the condom factories got bldy rich while people still got infected with and dying of STD's including aids. Then the pharmaceutical manufacturers got even richer by selling very expensive Aids medicines.

Same for promiscuuity, co-habitation etc. They are all chimeras that eventually hurt more and more people. Only the rich get richer by convincing people to do what they want them to do.

peter grech

Nov 16th 2008, 22:08

I dont care what others say, I told my own children when the time arrives go and live with your girlfriend before you get married. If it is worth to get married!!

Byron Camilleri

Nov 16th 2008, 19:29

Miriam Maria Micallef, why don't you do what you want, and let us do what we want?

M. Mercieca

Nov 16th 2008, 16:44

@ Alex Ellul

'Having said all this, all are free to co-habit whenever they like. The responsibility is theirs. My comments below were intended for the gullible who may think that co-habiting is-easy. It is very-expensive.'

But in reality is the responsibility is theirs?? Ask the mothers and grand mothers please!
The government pays social benefits, increasing numbers of unwanted-babies –un-wanted pregnancy and the babies born with unknown fathers - (Currently 25% of our future kids with unknown fathers)
What about family bonds??
In today’s liberal world, as soon as the reach 18 years (and in many cases even much younger than this) they just quit homes, and if they opt to stay with parents they only do that to save money. In most cases, the ‘man’ (boy friend) is just there to have sex, and the partner (girl friend) parents pay for accommodation.
Here, I only see two crystal clear facts: women’s rights, and unwanted born kids rights are zilch
Females rights in general having are having one direction to go: drainage

Alex Ellul

Nov 16th 2008, 14:56

@Jason Spiteri: I do not know if any commentators below questioned Dr. Bonnici's right to speak in Parliament. It is his right to do so and I would defend him against anyone who says otherwise. LIKEWISE WE HAVE THE RIGHT NOT TO AGREE WITH DR. BONNICI.

The following does not need researching: Marital and family problems are very costly. A lot of money is involved in separation, child care, court sentences and divorce procedings when this is introduced. MOST OF THE MONEY ENDS UP IN LAWYERS POCKETS. So be careful in interpreting what politicians say since most of these are lawyers.

Trying hard to keep a solid family is the best policy. Once it fails, then so be it and as Christ said to his fellow citizens: Moses introduced divorce because of their hard-headedness. My apologies for quoting the Christ but just to show that this is not a new social problem but is as old as humanity. Only the way we deal with it is different.

Having said all this, all are free to co-habit whenever they like. The responsibility is theirs. My comments below were intended for the gullible who may think that co-habiting is-easy. It is very-expensive.

Evarist Saliba

Nov 16th 2008, 14:26

As often happens, people tend to be carried away and lose themselves in side issues.The issue raised in parliament is not the merits or otherwise of couples chosing to live together before marriage. According to the press report the honourable member of parliament is suggesting that young couples SHOULD BE ENCOURAGED to do so.

By whom?

Jason Spiteri

Nov 16th 2008, 12:38

So the Maltese accuse an MP of 'acting irresponsibly' because he freely voiced an opinion in the House of Parliament - clearly these people have no notion of what free debate and democracy are about. As for the 'studies' issue - why do fundamentalist christians conveniently resort to science and studies only when it suits them?

Ms.Miriam Micallef, how about this for research (but you can't just google this off European websites; you need to do it in Malta) : why not dig up the spate of annulment judgements given by Curia or in separation judgements in Courts to see how many marriages started foundering the minute untested couples started living in the same space together?

Muscat.Philip

Nov 16th 2008, 12:12

The young MP's question is a sociological one; it has no political answers. European people are free to do what they want, indeed even the parents are better left out of the equation! I know people who lived together for years and are still together; others who were married or not married did not share the same fate! Am 67, happily married and have co-habitied for 3 years. It depends on how lucky one is to meet the right people and how ready on is to work hard, very hard for this relationship to continue.
Who are we to pass judgements on others? Yes we all agree that everyone is responsible for his action and that kids are to be given paramount importance in relationships. This is where the state has to intervene, to give these kids the same rights as others. Mr Owen Bonnici opened the door; he did not close it.

Joseph Schembri

Nov 16th 2008, 11:37

I agree with the Hon. gentleman that EIAs should be seen to be independent of the developer therefore MEPA itself should carry out the EIA and later bill the developer.

Pamela Hansen

Nov 16th 2008, 11:25

"Regarding the proposed works at St John's CoCathedral, he proposed that the forthcoming environmental impact assessment should not be paid by the applicant. This, he said, would be a first but should become the norm in all cases of development.

"Dr Bonnici asked if it was true that Heritage Malta wanted to sell part of the national costume collection."

Does anybody care? Not one single comment has referred to either so far.
Both these items are important. Do we only have one track minds and only care whether couples should cohabit or not? No wonder our heritage is suffering.

charles marsh

Nov 16th 2008, 11:04

I think Owen is speaking because as a lawyer he is facing such problems everyday.

jimmy magro

Nov 16th 2008, 09:31

@john schembri
thank you for being so enlightened.
that is why i am proposing to the government that legislation should be provided that social services are only awarded in the case the child is registered in the civil records with both the name of the father and the mother.
the records of the church are immaterial as in malta the state and the church are two seperate entities.
the state should not be a police officer. through a small bit of legislation the fraud being made today can be regulated immediately. it is a question that you have to think out of the box and be creative. it seems that our governance system is not creative enough.
i hope i have now clarified my position

J. Schembri

Nov 16th 2008, 06:04

@ jimmy magro : single mothers know who the fathers are , sometimes all one has to do is check at the church's baptism register or check who goes in the residence of the so called single mother. When the father is found all the social services have to be paid back to the government . I would add that they should be accused of fraud.

jimmy magro

Nov 15th 2008, 21:37

there is no need for a discussion as it is happening already. not only young couples but of all ages. co-habitation has been institutionalised by legislation in the social services by the present administration

through social services females are being encouraged to be single mothers. it is only the child born out of marriage that suffers all his life as such persons remain without knowing their real father. legislation should be introduced that social assisatnce is only availabe when the child parents are both registered in defence of children.

Children Commissioner: you should be campaigning for this legislation !!

E Velarde

Nov 15th 2008, 21:20

Yeah! Come on and join the UK on the riotous road to social disintegration.

Fresh wind from America and Britain? No, it's a foul stench.

Jeremy J Camilleri

Nov 15th 2008, 21:01

Make it illegal!!!!!!

Even mentioning it should be illegal.....Burn the witches!!!!!!!

Haha....we are so medievel it hurts!!!!

The same people who are aghast at such a proposal were probably dead set against the introduction of civil marriage.

A big TINDAHALX to all you bigots is in order...If youºre against cohabitaion...just DOnt do it. I on the other hand, shall do whatever I like...as long as its legal of course.

malcolm seychell

Nov 15th 2008, 18:40

Why not discuss it. Why are we afraid of discussing certain issues in this island?

The reality is that today many couples are already doing it, although some of you still believe that we are living in the 1950's

Life changed in these last few decades.

D Zammit

Nov 15th 2008, 17:58

What's so LIBERAL about the government deciding one's lifestyle? Gay rights, divorce, possibly even abortion and euthaniasia......these may be considered political issues, but I find that a political agenda around how I may choose to live may life is just plain interfering....if the MP in question wants to make a political agenda out of this, he should focus on the legal rights around co-habitation.....adoption, taxation, separation, financial, offspring status......without making a statement as to what couples should or should not do.

Focusing on encouraging the practice can easily be interpreted as lack of maturity and narrow-mindedness, which is probably the opposite impression to that intended.

Joseph Schembri

Nov 15th 2008, 17:48

@C Micallef: Having children is not a basic human right but the right to life for an unwanted child is. The state should help unwanted children first.

D.Galea

Nov 15th 2008, 17:46

Living together is neither illegal or taboo these days so I don't see any reason why couples shouldn't see this as an option other then to keep themselves on the good side of their religious believes, which would be understandable yet other considerations should be given, for example in my view real commitment doesn't actually start with marriage for many couples but rather with the investment say in the first property, this is where tangible losses become apparent if the couple should split up, banks don't make it any easier, as couple grow older the changes to get a decent loan grow much slimmer by the month.

Cohabiting before marriage might surely help make a couple much more aware of how it is to leave their parents home to live together but surely won't lead to any guarantees that problems won't arise in the future, humans change constantly as they grow up simple fact, it is more an issue of mentality more then anything else.

For those curious my partner & I were never married, live together, have children & I can assure you we're a lucky happy family as we are.

Dr.Emmy BEZZINA, LL.D.Dip.S.Th.,

Nov 15th 2008, 17:15

Dear Owen expect dire consequences for your welcome liberal comments.As Malta`s youngest MP,the unmanipulated,free-thinking,liberal-minded,foremost citizens of our Republic expect of you TO SPEAK YOUR MIND.Your Leader in his MATURITY will utterly respect your queries and comments.I know that what you stated was well-intended - I have been there before: for speaking PRO-DIVORCE, I was banned me from representing my clients before the Ecclessiastical Tribunal - if it were possible they would have starved me to death! It turned out to be a BLESSING because speaking your mind will pave the way for you to be YOU and NO ONE else - WELL DONE ! Now that you commenced,do not be halted as THE MANIPULATORS will attempt to do - our Country will be run by Civil People not by Clerics & This will be the NEW LIBERAL MALTA. On both sides of the HOUSE, there are MPs who just want to be like DEAR OWEN BONNICI - emulate him and BE YOURSELVES.HYPOCRISY & MANIPULATION SHOULD NOT BE ON A FREE PARLIAMENT`s AGENDA - ever.Now for DIVORCE, ABORTION, GAY RIGHTS, EUTHANASIA, COHABITATION,SINGLE MOTHERS,DAD`S RIGHTS..& CATHOLIC CHURCH on a PAR with OTHERS!

C Micallef

Nov 15th 2008, 17:01

WHAT ABOUT CHILDLESS COUPLES?

Good luck for the future to couples living together before marriage....!!!
But can we have an MP to think of those hundreds (if not thousands) of childless couples who, budget after budget are always forgotten?! These couples have to fork out several thousands of Euros to try to get a baby by medical interventions or to adopt a child from abroad. But for Malta, in order to qualify as a family they have to have at least one child immaterial if they are married or not in the first place. So, single parents and those cohabiting with another partner (with all due respect) are given attention but a married childless couple is doomed! Where is the Catholic Church please?

M. Mercieca

Nov 15th 2008, 16:58

@Miriam Maria Micallef
@Alex Ellul
@L Galea
I totally agree with you, as well as with many others point of views.
----------------------------------------
Any sort of control is needed or else, the whole system (secularism or sexu-lism) would fall.
The finical earthquake the world currently facing is due to uncontroable financial market. The death certificate of Capitalism and free-market is on the process of being issued. If anybody think that in Malta we are safe, please think again. Governments don’t do miracles, if you earn 1000 Euros a month you can’t spend 1500. You must live with what you earn or (die). Unfortunately, by default, peoples don’t like hearing negative news. But, probably, peoples may understand the world financial crises when they don’t have money to buy food, pay electricity bills or buying fuel!
Having the above reality in mind. Can Dr. Bonnici think of the following reality?
With the increasing number of born kids with unknown fathers, coupled with the increasing number of ‘social benefits abusers by single parents, where the government (MLP - PN or any other government) will get money from? - the collapse of the system is looming!

Franco Farrugia

Nov 15th 2008, 16:37

I congratulate Owen Bonnici. If for nothing else, he has the courage to speak about a controversial subject in Parliament. I think that it is encouraging that MPs speak their own minds and put questions across to the citizens to ponder about. One may choose to agree or disagree - but it is within his right to voice such thoughts.

Jeff Inguanez

Nov 15th 2008, 16:32

Big Brother Lives...

Maltese politicians are so self-important
they are now 'asking' what people should do before marriage.

Sounds like there are absolutely no political and economic problems
in Malta.

With politicians like this, no wonder in Malta politics enters absolutely everything.

OlinaTretyak

Nov 15th 2008, 16:10

Hey, hey! Have you all forgot that there is no divorce in Malta? Which means, that after separation, with next your spouse you are cohabiting not 'before marriage' but as long as that relationship lasts.

What is the difference then of couple, cohabiting before marriage or instead of marriage? And whose business is that? If it is of Parliament concern, then they should introduce divorce and after that they will have moral rights to debate if people should cohabiting or not. I would understand all the values of marriages if everyone would be given that opportunity. But why you are discussing way of living of only those couples, who are entitled for future marriage?

As for me, I would prefer to live in society where people would not cohabit but would be married with right to divorce and to marry again. That would work.

Now, young couple in Malta see that so many couples around them are cohabiting because Marriage (one chance) did not work, that they stand a choice: or else they cohabit before marriage, trying to learn partner, or else they end up separated and cohabiting.

Alfred Camilleri

Nov 15th 2008, 16:01

@F.J. Brincat. I quite agree with you. Very well said indeed!

@Joe Buttigieg. Do you really believe that violent individuals come only from separated parents? If you do, you're living in cuckoo-land, if you don't, then your whole argument falls flat on its face.

John Mallia

Nov 15th 2008, 15:57

I lived with two girlfriends before marriage and thank God I did.

The first relationship ended after 11/2 years when it was evident that we were not made for each other. The second lasted 4 years and we have now been married for 15 years (in december).

Had I not lived together I (we) would have committed a big mistake and probably got married with all the problems that a marriage breakdown would have brought about.

I would also had lost the chance of ever meeting / settling down / marrying with my wife. Real traits of character come when you live together not drive your girlfriend/fiancee back home after an evening together.

Therefore from my experience, Owen you are correct.

Vincent Galea

Nov 15th 2008, 15:51

At work I surround myself with girls who openly share their dating stories with all details.We all laugh and get on with our work. At my age they give me a real booster.Others seem not to have stories to tell.Quite frankly I'm not sure whether to admire them or check their sanity levels.
However we are living in a world that every home has a separation, teen-age pregnancy,
extra marital affairs. How often do we make decisions based on what is right for us versus ' what is normal' -what is expected. Everyone we touch becomes a part of us, a part of our history, of our memories, of our life, of our hearts.
It's alright if we step a litle back and think twice about who we let become a part of us.
O.K girls ? .............slow down.

Anna & Mario Grech

Nov 15th 2008, 15:46

Marriage is a choice and a decision.it's a committment. Co-habiting does not necessarily lead to committment. The guarantee of success in marriage is that each part is ready to accept the other part as they continually change; every circumstance changes each one differently. Preparation for marraige (without co-habiting), should be the time to get to know each other and to undrrstand the value of love, respect and sacrifice. Society does not need legalistic quick fixes but needs to understand root causes of why there are breakdowns. Mariage is a state. At that point one cannot live as if one were still single. Marriage is being ready to love, to respect and to support anytime and in any circumstance. We have no intention of judging anyone but cohabiting is a decision we would not take. For the record: we have been lovingly and happily married for 32 years, parents to 5 children, parents-in law to 2 daughters and proud grandparents. This has certainly not been plain sailing all the way but our committment in marriage to love each other unconditionally has been our greatest support.and joy; otherwise at the first hurdle we would have gone apart.

Chris Borg

Nov 15th 2008, 15:21

@Miriam Micallef.

How can a couple divorce if they're not married?

It migt be that married couples who had previously lived together have a higher chance of seperationg/divorcing since such couples are usually more liberal, thus less likely to put up with abuse. It is likely that in the countries where the research you mentioned was done, a woman who gets married before living with the person is more likely to stay with the same person even if there's abuse.

Victor Fiorini

Nov 15th 2008, 15:21

Even though I personally agree with Bonnici's views on this one, I hardly think that parliament is the appropriate place to discuss this... Government should be kept out of people's private business... otherwise what next? Government discussing the wearing of mini skirts and wonder bras?

Edwin Formosa

Nov 15th 2008, 15:18

A question I have been hearing the last 60 years of my life by the same type of people. This time it is not just a query. It is an agenda to attract votes just similar to the other one about divorce. I expect MP's to have the decency to let us know their "controversial" views before asking for our vote.

D.Camilleri

Nov 15th 2008, 15:06

@ Miriam Micallef,
I am a 42 year old that lived with my then girlfriend for 4 years, This helped us a lot & made us realise what living together is all about & how difficult life can be, We have been together for 10 years or so Now & Very happy, we have a 3 year old & another on the way, who are you to judge others, that living together is madness, this is reality sweetie.. Old fashion times are way over. Wake up.

Joe Buttigieg

Nov 15th 2008, 14:46

@ I Abela
What a streak of genius! I wonder if Mr Abela would agree with me that if I would like to raise animals in my house without cairing for the discomfort this can cause my neighbours, I should be allowed to do it.
Now do not tell me that cohabitation and divorce only concern those who are directly involved, that is just the couple because that's a fallacy. I believe that every human action affects the whole society one way or another. That is when as a result of separation on the part of the parents a child develops a violent character, society suffers from this action. Don't you think that society has the right to say something about that? No man is an island!

Alex Ellul

Nov 15th 2008, 14:40

With politicians like these, who think that political correctness is correct, the MLP is bound to fail again. Dear Owen, please try think before you leap.

How can a couple co-habit? where? who will pay for the residence, the government? From where will they get the money? What if it fails, who will keep the apartment? What are the ramifications of this proposition? Did you think about the economics of it all? Will they spend all their money on an apartment, end up in court, spend their money on lawyers, then start co-habiting all over again to try to find the perfect partner, and keep on repeating the cycle until the perfect prince finds the perfect princess?

Evarist Saliba

Nov 15th 2008, 14:21

Am I right in concluding from these comments that those who want to promote cohabition before marriage are men? Does this mean something?

Kenneth Bonnici

Nov 15th 2008, 14:19

I agree fully with this comment:

I Abela (1 hour, 6 minutes ago)
While I appreciate everybody's comments, I must say that if you don't like it, DON'T DO IT. If I like it, LET ME DO IT. Your catholic and conservative comments are not doing anyone any good. Live and Let Live.

NOT everyone has the same beliefs so let US choose without prejudice........ I am sure that most of the 'MORALLY CORRECT' people here are double-faced, farizej...... you cannot face reality......... NO TO BLIND MARRIAGES

JB Caruana

Nov 15th 2008, 14:06

Dr Owen, who will take care of the kids that these couples may have whilst living together, once they go their separate ways???
First step should be for the government to recognise couples living together, giving them rights and responsibilities same as married couples......

James De Giorgio

Nov 15th 2008, 13:44

The clue to a working marriage is not living together before getting married, but being ready to close one's eye every now and then, forgiving and living the ups and downs together, and this has to happen from both sides.

Owen Bonnice is wrong-footed on this issue. Many couples I know lived together before getting married, yet many of them are today separated. Though this doesn't mean that living together before, will disqualify you from a successful marriage, the point is that living together is not the answer. The answer is backing off from the "you stepped on my right to have rights so I prop up my right to deny you of your rights" mentality.

I Abela

Nov 15th 2008, 13:08

While I appreciate everybody's comments, I must say that if you don't like it, DON'T DO IT. If I like it, LET ME DO IT. Your catholic and conservative comments are not doing anyone any good, (except yourself of course). Live and Let Live.

D Zammit

Nov 15th 2008, 12:44

Living together before marriage may work for some couple and might not for others. Some people get to know each other well in a short time and others may never do so, however long they live together. I think that the government should stay out of deciding what will work best, and focus on "encouraging" people to act wisely, instead of deciding what is wise. Just as we expect the Church to stay out of state matters, I expect the government to stay out of personal matters.

F J Brincat

Nov 15th 2008, 12:40

Quite a lot of people riding on a high horse here.

Makes it look like Malta is the last bastion of world morality.

But what it actually is; lots of pontificating people sticking their nose in other peoples’ way of life when they should be minding their own business.

Bjorn Bonello

Nov 15th 2008, 12:34

I’ve been lucky to live abroad for a two years were these things where no so shrouded perhaps.I fear the question is outdated.Many already live together if they wish to do so with no need to ask permission.I think marriage has little to do with it at all.It is just a reflection of modern lifestyle,one which is based on wanting to enjoy life without any strings attached.We value the individual over society.
It is a question of priorities, if one does not want to marry,he/she can life alone or with whom he/she wants.Normally when these realize that they won’t inherit the other, instead of going to the notary they seek government’s help.
In truth we are incessantly bombarded by promiscuous behaviour,money and red carpet fever and as the Maltese saying goes “ta’ kuljum iwegga r-ras” (routine becomes stale and boring).Married life and children are seen as a cage, sometimes thorny and sometimes golden, but still a cage.
The short cut is always more attractive, even so when our very generous welfare state makes it such that those who work 17 hours a day to make end meet, pay for others who do not.

Rev.Joe Inguanez

Nov 15th 2008, 12:30

Re; Hon Owen Bonnici's suggestion: How many years will it take for one to know another person's character? If one looks at divorce cases one finds that living together does not necessarily tell you much.... many lived in a happy marriage for a long time... then love was lost! I have friends who have cohabited together for a number of years.... their marriage ended in divorce.

Marius Zulgis

Nov 15th 2008, 12:16

@Eman Pulis
A good point, yes. However the discussions raised in parliament should be specifically these - legal recognition for cohabiting couples etc and not discussing the moral ramifications of cohabitation, which in my humble opinion is strictly the domain of the persons concerned.

I. Galea

Nov 15th 2008, 12:16

CONTINUED...

people often come up with the argument that you have to live with a person to know who you're going to marry. WRONG. if your partner has any big problems - alcoholism, drug abuse, chronic laziness, aggressive nature....you don't have to live with the person to find that out - it just comes out after a while, and if you're not blinded by love you'll see it.

having said that, you could live with a person for 10 years before you get married. but it won't change anything if that person decides to run off with someone else 5 years after marriage, or decides that he's gay 20 years down the line.

if two people live together, they'll get to know about each other's flaws - yes, even the little ones. then they get picky and annoyed at just about anything. they go into marriage already knowing ALL ABOUT their significant other. what's left to achieve? what's left to find out about each other? not much.

Karl Abela

Nov 15th 2008, 12:15

Owen, you are fishing for some quick votes are you?

lgalea

Nov 15th 2008, 12:15

No wonder Malta is continuously going to the dogs.
Did your parents do so Owen?
Did you do so?

I. Galea

Nov 15th 2008, 12:09

i would like to add to Jake Mamo's comment.

A lot of research, (including research conducted by Maltese researches such as Dr. rev. Paul Galea) proves that cohabitation kills marriage before it even happens. our parents never had to live together before they married, my parents have been happily married for 25 years and they only knew each other for 7 months before they tied the knot. i'm sure you can think of many other examples of this.

living together prior to marriage takes out the anticipation and excitement of the future. it takes away the stepping stone, from single life to married life and commitment. once a couple have been living together for a while, they tend to get married because it's the next step and they can't really break from their lifestyle that they're now used to.

if there's a problem, it's very hard to break away from that relationship if you're already living with the person. one has to think of moving out, finding another place to stay, paying the rent alone, splitting shared items, etc...so more often than not, they take the easy road and stay together.

F J Brincat

Nov 15th 2008, 12:01

Mr Jake Mamo:

In one of those links (the one before last)

“In addition, couples who cohabit are less religious than those who marry without prior cohabitation. On this point there are several studies that indicate a correlation between religiosity and marital happiness as well as stability”

Sounds like a case of religious zealousness. It seems to imply that religious people are more likely to have happier and more stable marriages than others. This is Ms Amberts personal opinion and interpretation of the facts – hardly etched in stone.

“She also opines that a propensity to cohabit soon after starting a romantic relationship leads to a pattern of instability. People who go through a series of de facto relationships are more likely contract quick marriages, which are harder to remain faithful to”

I beg to differ but this does in no way mean that couples who do not cohabitate before marriage, go on to experience stable marriages later on. And how many relationships that end up in marriage can one go through here in Malta? (hint: one)

Mark Anthony Sammut

Nov 15th 2008, 11:55

The reasons behing this argument are completely wrong. Your partner will change with time, and your life will change with changes in career and job, the birth of children etc. So when should the couple marry? A relationship is dynamic, and the meaning of marriage is that you have to be ready to make sacrifices and be fully committed towards your relationship.

J Farrugia

Nov 15th 2008, 11:54

YOUNG PEOPLE ARE ALREADY DOING IT. Yes continue with your anti catholic crusade, and the list of separations will continue to rise. That's what they want to hear from you. You should take the example of your parents who brought you up the way they did, with sacrifices and honesty. And then one asks why the social fund has exploded. Illegitimate children, single mothers, etc. And no sight of the men who were responsible for all this.

G. Mangion

Nov 15th 2008, 11:36

owen

if this has something todo with the mlp's Bidu Gdid, you are wrong.
this had been happening for age's !!!
Another Parir Hazin !!!

Eman Pulis

Nov 15th 2008, 11:25

@Marius: It is important to raise these discussions at parliament level because social and other benefits such as tax cuts can be tailor made for cohabitating couples.

louis ebejer

Nov 15th 2008, 11:21

In my opinion the comment by Hon Bonnici makes a lot of sence for Malta. As we do not have the divorce law yet , by living together couples will know their partners better and and save a lot of problems in futre

Marion Pace

Nov 15th 2008, 11:19

Such a question should not be discussed in Parliament, this is something personal. Dr. Bonnici please refrain from asking such questions in the highest institution of our country. It might be a deterrent from voting for a change.

Marius Zulgis

Nov 15th 2008, 11:07

"Should couples live together before marriage, young MP asks". Surely this is a question for the couple concerned and their immediate family if need be. Its time the authorities and church to concentrate on matters of state and spirituality (respectively, please!) and leave people to get on with their everyday lives.

Kirill Micallef Stafrace

Nov 15th 2008, 10:56

@Miriam Maria Micallef
I would like to have access to the research you quote and especially its direct relevance to Malta. Last time I checked divorce was not an option. So do not use research at your convenience, now that is very very dangerous.
Hon Bonnici tabled a query. The answer might be yes or it might be no, but proper research must be undertaken before a proposal should be shot down.

Jake Mamo

Nov 15th 2008, 10:54

Mr. Owen Bonnici: Typing Cohabitation study into Google gives hundreds of Sociological Studies contradicting your arguments... mind you...these are not some stupid pro-marriage people talking but these are scientific reports showing FACTS about the disastrous result of cohabitation!

Some Links can be found below:
http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/1999/02/02-12-99tdc/02-12-99dnews-2.asp
http://lists101.his.com/pipermail/smartmarriages/2006-June/003062.html
http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/cohabit.htm
http://www.ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/zcohabit.htm
http://www.civitas.org.uk/hwu/cohabitation.php

t farrugia

Nov 15th 2008, 10:51

I totally agree with owen bonnici. you really get to know a person when you live with them not meet them for a couple of hours a day. it is the best way to judge if they are compatible for marriage because when living together a couple will a good idea of their partners true character. before marriage certain defects are not so visible because meeting for a few hours in a day these defects can seem trivial, but when living together they can become unbearable, so yes very good suggestion by Owen Bonnici!!!

Saviour Paul

Nov 15th 2008, 10:47

This is how the problems addressed by the budget should be solved - by sleeping together before marraige. This is the new Labour.

Kevin Zammit

Nov 15th 2008, 10:47

Owen,

Populism does not suit your style at all :)

Alex Ellul

Nov 15th 2008, 10:42

Where? in a cave?

Miriam Maria Micallef

Nov 15th 2008, 10:40

Hon Bonnici is acting very irresponsibly. Cohabitating couples stand a higher chance of divorce and separation. Research has shown this time and time again. The proposal is immature and very very dangerous.

J. Schembri

Nov 15th 2008, 10:37

I think the question should have been " should couples take marriage commitment seriously?". Living for some time with your partner can be like a driving test , once you passed the test you got the license. Shouldn't couples be more prepared for marriage rather than their weddings and honeymoons ?

D Vella

Nov 15th 2008, 10:25

It is refreshing that controversial subjects are being aired in public.Who know's,maybe the fresh wind that is blowing over America will find it's way to these Islands.Not before time!

NOEL DARMANIN

Nov 15th 2008, 10:18

PROSET OWEN.NAQBEL MIJA FIL MIJA MIEGHEK.GOOD LUCK FOR YOUR GOOD JOB!