Divorce can offer hope

Johnny Smith

Nov 3rd 2008, 19:02

@ Maria Gauci: Madam, you stated that you read such reports on the outcome effects of divorce, but you must be a selective lady, because you quote, & read what's best 4 you. Read all to see the real image! That what we all do, study it's aspect & outcome results to+marriage+divorce. But we Catholics do not deny you the right to separate and remarry again, its legal. What my friend McNeil said is the after effects to children, who suffer most of all !!!! Yes, my friend lives in Malta and Maltese, and have full legal knowledge of European & Local laws. However, if your faith is different not Christian/Catholic that's your business & right to speak too, but hey!! We too have a constitutional right to state what is right & wrong, you're FREE to choose. But remember, we all have a soul and when the end arrives, we all have to face someone, even if you don't believe, That's your big hard problem, but think & think again about your final decision or on the end-times dream with maybe facing the final eternal failure after your decision was w/o faith, what would have happen to Maria.

Maria Gauci

Nov 2nd 2008, 23:26

Mr/Mc McNeil, thank you for quoting Matthew, Genesis and CCC...you simply dug a deeper hole. Your argument doesn't follow. The moment you based it solely on religious arguments, you're went off tangent completely.

Divorce should never be discussed from a religious perspective. Common good is no religious property - that's why its called common.

If Catholic marriages were based on what you told us below, than the introduction of divorce will not be problematic at all since Catholics will not be making use of it. I suggest you do some reading about your fellow Christians – the Orthodox . Do you share the same God? If you do, He has a different plan for the Christian Orthodox people!!!

For all those who do not share your faith, you could have quoted all the Bible and CCC word for word. It doesn't change anything. When (and if) you have a decent sociological argument for or against divorce, please write again.

Until then, goodbye.

Maria Gauci

Nov 2nd 2008, 23:13

Mr/Ms McNeil, you don't sound like the teachable type so I'm not too inclined on teaching you anything. You asked several questions in your first comment. Who told you anyone wants to get married in Church? Like its the only institution that offers these kind of unions!! How about a civil union? By saying no to divorce you're denying people who do not belive in what you do. Of course I read reports, but I an not selective in my reading. And since divorce will only formalise the present state of separations, it will not be much different after its introduction than it is now. If you live in the same Malta I do, you noticed that not having divorce legislation is not much of a deterrent to anyone!

Christ instituted marriage? Pull the other one please. You really believe that people starting getting married in 1 AD? 33 AD maybe? Good one!
Marriage as a sacrament is a different story even though it made it as a sacrament in the 12th or 13th century!! But that’s a Catholic thing anyway and cannot be applied to people of other faiths.

C. Mc Neil

Nov 2nd 2008, 22:46

@TimRepard: You stated "Jesus allows divorce in cases of unfaithfulness (Mark: 19:9)." You quoted wrong, not Mark, but Matthew!!! Anyway, .....continuation"""" But the exceptions are not always stated with general rules. In fact in Luke's account, for example, professes to be speaking of Old Testament Law (Verse 17) is a law which contains provisions for divorce, in effect exceptions to the general rule that marriage is for life and when one say "FOR LIFE, IT IS REALLY FOR LIFE, AND YES, UNTIL DO US PART" We understand, therefore, that Jesus is not making a new legislation regarding divorce, nor is He changing the Old Testament meaning of divorce. After all, did He not say that He had come not to destroy the Law, but to fulfill it (Matt.5:17). Christ Instituted seven new sacraments, these are Baptism; Confirmation; Eucharist; Penance; Anointing of sick persons; Holy Orders; and Matrimony. They are all important and few know this. Therefore, the union of MAN & WOMAN in MARRIAGE is a way of imitating in the flesh the creator's generosity and fecundity. When MAN leaves his FATHER and MOTHER and cleaves to his wife, then they become one flesh. [Catechism #1210 & 2335]

C. Mc Neil

Nov 2nd 2008, 22:26

@TimRepard: You stated "Jesus allows divorce in cases of unfaithfulness (Mark: 19:9)." You quoted wrong, not Mark, but Matthew!!! Anyway, Jesus said this and I quote what the Greek texts and modern English versions do omit the words as found in other bibles. The Greek text says "And Who so marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery" The focus again, as in Matthew 5:32, is on what a husband does to a faithful wife in divorcing her. He betrays her, and the implication is that he does so because he wants another woman and is willing to get rid of his wife to marry the other woman. This betrayal on his part is an act of adultery. The same would be true in ancient Roman and modern American society, if a wife divorced her faithful husband and it is the Gospel of Mark that addresses the sin of a wife's betrayal of her husband in doing this (10:12) But you also missed the continuation of Matthew 19:9; therefore in verse 10 it carries on saying "Jesus' disciples then said to him, Then it is better not to marry!" and Jesus replied "Not everyone can accepts this statement."

C. Mc Neil

Nov 2nd 2008, 15:10

@ Maria Gauci and all others:::: Well, married couples should be encouraged to listen to the word of God in his or her parish, attend masses regularly to persevere in prayer and to contribute in any efforts for justice to others; to bring up their children in the christian / Catholic faith, [many neglecting this work]; to cultivate the spirit and practice of penance and therefore, implore day by day, God's grace. Therefore, the Union of man and woman in marriage is a way of imitating in the flesh that the creator generosity and fecundity. So when a man leaves his father and his mother, and cleaves to his wife, when they become one flesh [Genesi Chp2: Verse 24 or book of Cathechism # 2335]
God could have made Eve from dust of the ground, but chose to make Eve just from man's flesh and bone. Thus this illustrated for us that in marriage man and woman symbolically are united into one, a mystical union of the couple's hearts and lives. Jesus Christ endorsed the original concept of marriage [Matthew 19: verse 3 to 6]and thus marriage was blessed by God as the only chosen human relationship.

C. Mc Neil

Nov 2nd 2008, 14:55

@ Maria Gauci and all others:::: Well who instituted marriage ? Right ....Christ and he instituted it as one of the seven sacraments laws. These where Baptism; Confirmation (or Cristmation); the Eucharist; Penance; the Anoiting of the sick; the Holy Orders, and Matrimony. These seven sacraments are all important but few families do know how important they are for those who believe in God. In God's grace and blessing on the new couples especially the bride as she receives the Holy Spirit as the communion of Love of Christ and the Church. It is also the seal of the spources or couples convenant with God, to which they share an ever available source of their love and the strength to renew their fidelity to each other.. [From the book of Cathechism # 1210 & 1624]

C. Mc Neil

Nov 2nd 2008, 14:46

@ Maria Gauci: Can you tell us what was the after effects of those people who took divorce? And also did they had any bad effects in society? Have you read the survey results in the United Kingdom upon having the divorce? Has society went forward or crime increased and crimenologist insists it's the fault and effects to divorce? Are you sure that with divorce you would re-marry again in Church ? And can you tell us how you intend to marry you second Man or third man? Cases where that they re-married several time as they were never satisfied ? Could you explain to us in which type of church you intend to marry when divorce comes? Teach us.....?

C. Mc Neil

Nov 2nd 2008, 14:39

@Andy Towler: I just pitty you, but I can assure you 100% that on your death date, you'll see my image beside you praying and offering you my helping hand. This is a promise that I am showering you with God's eternal Love for you my brother, it's either you accept it or reject it. But then it would be on your own soul and conscious but as I told you I did offered you my gift of the Creator of Love and Mercy, because he love us all.

Maria Gauci

Nov 2nd 2008, 10:11

Fr Mario Attard
Do you really believe that someone who resorts to divorce is fleeing the cross? My Christ nailed himself to a cross so that, neither you nor I, have to go through that ordeal again. I will nail myself to no cross just because you say so.
As Juan Arias puts it, my God is a different God!!

Maria Gauci

Nov 2nd 2008, 10:04

Fr Mario Attard, you speak about the plan of God - a man made plan indeed. Had it been the plan of God, why would we have the Catholic plan of god, the Orthodox plan of god, the Anglican plan of god, etc?
In one of your comments you said you were "repeating what is the Church's teaching on marriage", and I don't think anyone has any problem with that as long as it is just another opinion like everybody else's. You have every right to preach what you believe in but that's where it should stop.
To tell people that "Divorce is a grave offense against the natural law" is wrong. You say "divorce is immoral", why? Because it goes against the teaching you believe in? What morality are you talking about? And if one doesn't shares your set of values, does that make divorce in that situation immoral too?
You spoke about giving up, it can be moving on.
You are asking why some say that there's nothing to do, who's saying so? Amongst other things, divorce, like separation, can be an option.

James Coleiro

Nov 2nd 2008, 09:45

@Fr. Mario Attard

You have every right to preach to those who want to listen to what you term is the word of god.
However preaching and forcing your beliefs down everybody's throat's is a different matter.

Divorce prohibition is forced on those who do not follow your preaching or beliefs not on the ones you pretend to represent. The church cannot escape from the fact that it has been lobbying for this situation(divorce prohibition) and is now trying to protect this status quo.


Divorce does represent hope for many people whose marriages have not succeeded. Unfortunately our country is the last bastion of tyrrany where this hope is still being denied (except if you wealthy enough to buy your own hope abroad).

William P Flynn

Nov 2nd 2008, 09:39

Mario Attard you should read what you and other clergy say.
Exaggeration? This was reported in the Times in relation to Mr Muscat's visit with the archbishop:

The archbishop "emphasised that the Church has its own principles and models which should serve as a basis to SUCCESSIVE GENERATIONS and such models should be applied to ALL ASPECTS OF LIFE". That's catholic bishop church speak for: "we want things to stay as they are and have been for a millennium. Church power and religion need to stay embedded as they have always been in every action, every policy in every layer of politics, government, law and life of every citizen."
As I keep saying these seemingly innocuous statements by the archbishop and the clergy at every opportunity and at all levels of Maltese life are greater than the sum of their parts.

Andy Towler

Nov 2nd 2008, 07:58

To C McNeil - I'm afraid you're wasting your time.

Fr Mario Attard OFM Cap

Nov 2nd 2008, 02:46

It is an outright exaggeration or misreading of my comments to think that the Church’s ministers are threatening in what we say. On the contrary. We are just helping people to value their marital commitment while realizing the disastrous effects of divorce. After all the Word of God, through which the Lord empowers our ministry explicitly says: “All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, FOR CORRECTION, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work” (2 Tim 3, 16-17). How can we be silent when the wolf called divorce is ready to devour God’s flock, irrespective of one’s creed and belief? Marriage is instituted by God not by the Church. As such everyone is duty bound before God to live it in complete faithfulness till the death of one of the spouses. The indissolubility of marriage rests with God not with the Church.

William P Flynn

Nov 1st 2008, 23:19

Mario Attard will never yield his christian position. But his words are very useful to thinking Maltese citizens for they telegraph the position of his superiors in the curia.
The push will soon come to a shove when citizens or parliament might have to vote on the divorce issue.
His words, studied even lightly, are on the brink of "do this and you lose your soul". Interdett! Vote this way and you commit a mortal sin.

These little frequent veiled threats by the archbishop and his priests in recent months are more threatening than the sum of their parts; and in my view a sign of things to come.

C. Mc Neil

Nov 1st 2008, 22:46

@ [Hi] Andy Towler: You have a right to be what you feel to be, but we believe that there is a Creator who made the first human beings. He loved them, gave them everything, and finally due to their sin, he send His only son to redeem for their sin. But the best of all besides his love, he left us free to believe or un-believe, yet a person who was full of sins at the end of his life, whispered two little simple words "forgive me." The next day died, and at the other end he found someone whom he did not believe in to welcome him. We all have to die one day, so until that day, you have my promise, that I though I don't know you, would be praying specially for you every day. You cannot see me now, but you will ANDY....... P.S. I'm not a priest, but God told us to love thy neighbour, so I'll be praying for you...

Fr Mario Attard OFM Cap

Nov 1st 2008, 22:46

I was repeating what is the Church's teaching on marriage. If we truly believe in what the Lord Jesus entrusted to his Church to teach why are we finding it difficult to believe? Why are we giving up when faced with life challenges? Why are we considering ourselves more vulnerable than we actually are? Why are we saying that there is nothing one can do? Why are we fleeing from the reality of the cross?

C. Mc Neil

Nov 1st 2008, 22:33

@ Ron Johnston & Others: Well the origin of marriage is a divine marriage having been instituted by God Himself when He performed the first marriage on the sixth day of creation when He brought together Adam and Eve as husband and wife. God's creative work was not complete until He made woman. God could have made Eve from dust of the ground, but chose to make Eve just from man's flesh and bone. Thus this illustrated for us that in marriage man and woman symbolically are united into one, a mystical union of the couple's hearts and lives. So in God's eyes marriage is for life - Please note.

So God intended marriage to be the pattern for all future marriages relationship and this was confirmed again by His son Jesus Christ. So if one is going to be married, one must be willing to keep the commitment that makes the two of them as one. Therefore, marriage should be more than friendship; it should be oneness. In fact Jesus Christ endorsed the original concept of marriage [see Matthew Chapter 19: verse 3 to 6]and thus marriage was blessed by God as the only chosen human relationship.

George Debono

Nov 1st 2008, 20:27

Dear Father Attard

I am a true in marriage, but I'm afraid I don't buy your arguments.

It is just platitudinous to say that " (divorce) .......... brings grave harm to the deserted spouse, to children traumatized by the separation of their parents and often torn between them, and because of its contagious effect which makes it truly a plague on society."

You are putting the cart before the horse by saying this. The "rave harm to deserted spouse and children" occurs BEFORE the only permissable solution in Malta - legal separation which is equal to divorce with the right to pick up the pieces and try to find a true and meaningful relationship again. To insist on keeping a couple together n a dysfunctional marital relationship (for instance if one spouse is violent or abusive ) is nothing short of cruelty and does infinitely more harm to children.

G

Andy Towler

Nov 1st 2008, 19:02

As a firm atheist, I don't believe in the validity or desirability of marriage, let alone divorce. Seeing some of these comments simply confirms to me that I made the right choice!

ron johnston

Nov 1st 2008, 18:23

@ Father Mario Attard, I note your comments,and now add mine .
My mother and father were divorced (when I was 14 years old) I am now 61) My father remarried and remained with his second wife for 40 years before passing on .My mother remained single. My brother ,who passed on 4 years ago ,also divorced, and lived happily with his 2nd wife for his remaining 25 years. I have countless friends in UK who also found happiness the 2nd time round . Will God judge them as sinners,Father?
Finally you may be celibate,but I would ask you to attempt ,by the Grace of God to put yourself in a position of being in a traumatic unhappy relationship ? Sincerely,Ron Johnston

Fr Mario Attard OFM Cap

Nov 1st 2008, 18:01

Divorce is a grave offense against the natural law. It claims to break the contract, to which the spouses freely consented, to live with each other till death. Divorce is immoral also because it introduces disorder into the family and into society. This disorder brings grave harm to the deserted spouse, to children traumatized by the separation of their parents and often torn between them, and because of its contagious effect which makes it truly a plague on society. With the excuse of exceptions the crime of abortion has been officially blessed by governments to carry out hidden genocides. Shall we be foolish enough to introduce laws that will put our families and society into utter jeopardy and ruin because of exceptions?

Anthony Magri

Nov 1st 2008, 17:51

The gospel says that Jesus condemned those who send away their wife except in case of adultery. Hence something happening after marriage.
The Gospel in Maltese instead of adultery it says: in case of “zwieg hazin" to quote exactly the Maltese text." Zwieg hazin " as it is understood is something that happened before marriage and rendered it nul and void. “Wrong/Illicit marriage”
Can anyone explain how to reconcile both versions?

George Debono

Nov 1st 2008, 17:33

John

Re your remark "...........I do not believe in Divorce............... (where children are involved,)...........

What exactly do you mean ??

I am aware of cases where couple were (correctly) advised that it is in the best interest of the children to separate - say, in the case of a an alcoholic, violent or sexually abusive spouse.

Is it your opinion that, if there are children, continiuing to expose them to the constant traumof a seriously dysfunctional marriage will be better for them? The mind boggles.

And while we are about it please, please, don't mix apples and oranges. Abortion and euthanasia have nothing whatsoever to do with divorce.

Grrrr !

G

John M. Grima

Nov 1st 2008, 16:23

Catherine, Brava. A very wise letter indeed.
Personally I do not believe in Divorce, (where children are involved,) abortion or eutinasia. However, I DO believe that in this world, there are exceptions to EVERYTHING!

Why, I even agree wtih Mr. Flynn's comment, below.

Sahha to all.

George Debono

Nov 1st 2008, 15:53

Dear Catherine

I wish to congratulate you on your excellent letter.

As you so wisely say, the breakdown of a marriage is a painful, confusing and heartbreaking experience and that………the large majority who resort to separation do not do so lightly or capriciously.

Exactly. Some base their sweeping statements on the totally misguided idea that people jump up and say “Hooray! Let’s have a divorce!” (One could easily imagine that their entire store of wisdom on such matters comes from reading pulp magazines like 'Hello!' )

Narrow-minded opinions completely disregard the ghastly emotional cost of separations. To deny people who have gone through the trauma of a separation the opportunity to make a new start should not be denied.

G

William P Flynn

Nov 1st 2008, 13:05

Catherine, a mile? I would like Mario Attard to walk 10 paces in their shoes!
Dear lady, unfortunately you live in Malta.

Which god/parent would give to some of his children a happy, perfect marriage and to others a marriage from hell? I think god has nothing to do with how a marriage turns out. Lovers take a chance and roll their own dice. The glue doesn't always set; and when it does, it doesn't always last; and it hurts.

But what would Fr Mario know about that?

Martin Luther, a great theologian, said on this subject of divorce, "God will not demand the impossible".

Fr Mario does; but judging by the number of separations and cohabitants in Malta, people don't believe him. They, rightly, make up their own mind.

Tim Ripard

Nov 1st 2008, 12:43

@ Fr Mario Attard
'as willed by God', according to Catholics, that is. Other religious denominations have a different interpretation of God's will, but to Catholics only the Catholic one counts and Catholics insist on imposing 'God's will' - which is in fact nothing but Catholics' will - on all and sundry, even non-Catholics, and the Maltese government toes the Catholic line. So much for religious freedom in Malta!
In any case, Jesus allows divorce in cases of unfaithfulness (Mark: 19:9). The mere fact that the Catholic church does not even acknowledge this just goes to show how subjective their interpretation of 'God's will' is.
'It's God's will' is the easy justification of anything by the Church of Rome, from the thousands burned at the stake, to the denial of 'eternal salvation' to the sad people who believed that the Earth was round.
God is so far above human understanding that to claim to know his/her/its will is presumptious in the extreme. I am glad for you that you are secure in your knowledge of God's will and respect your belief that you know and understand it but please do not impose your belief on me.

M J Gatt

Nov 1st 2008, 12:08

@Fr Mario Attard
Very rightly so. I wish there are others who comment with such rationality.

Fr Mario Attard OFM Cap

Nov 1st 2008, 11:32

In itself divorce can never be a hope. It goes diametrically opposite to God’s plan, that the two shall be one flesh. Catherine said that it's not merely “religious values that keep marriages together. The ability to communicate, be committed and make sacrifices go far beyond religion.” What are then sacrifices, communication, and commitment if not the Christian values of self-denial, love and perseverance? By living these values it is a way of being authentic to one’s faith which translates itself in every day life. Human love is always the subject of the redemption of Divine love. Love as forgiveness, perseverance, patience and faithfulness can turn a hopeless marriage into one full of love and commitment. Marriage is in itself the hope. Divorce is the utter destruction of the marital institution as willed by God.