Updated: Muscat calls on the Archbishop

Jean Gatt

Nov 2nd 2008, 19:17

@L.Coleiro

I fail to see your point. I only said that Dr.Muscat is trying to introduce divorce. Furthermore Mr.Coleiro, regardless of your beliefs and those of D Attard, I am a practicing Catholic and although contrary to my principles which I try my best to live up to, I have no problem in childless couples divorcing. The problem is when children are involved. You see Mr.Coleiro, I, a teenager, have passed through the ordeal of my parents almost divorcing - trust me it is not a nice experience. However, my parents seeked help from councillors - both clergy and lay, and have so far (thanks God) weathered the storm.

My point is, I am not in any way imposing, however as you have voiced your opinion in favour of divorce I am voicing it against. After all divorce can be avoided if one doesn't rush into marriage.

K. Pullicino

Nov 2nd 2008, 17:54

"Do you also believe in fairies and the happy ever after with no problems?"

Mixing "happy ever afters" with God shows a lack of logic to me especially since God's existence would explain many things which we perceive around us.

Frans Sammut

Nov 2nd 2008, 16:50

@ Anthony Mizzi
I would be the first to appreciate an assessment of the current situation on the part of the local Church leaders. Not that I expect them to participate directly in politics. But since the Church is ever so prompt to speak her mind on marriage and other family affairs, it would be logical if she spoke in the defence of families facing hardship through ill-advised policies furthered by Government. That wouldn't to my mind be interference in state affairs. She would only be defending her members from hardships that could be avoided only if saner policies replaced those that are meant "to rob the poor to give to the rich". I do not believe I am indulging in innuendos, am I now?

daniela vella

Nov 2nd 2008, 16:18

Johnny Smith:

Do you also believe in fairies and the happy ever after with no problems?

carmen caruana

Nov 2nd 2008, 13:36

Catholics should let those who are not live their life pls, thanks!!!

Johnny Smith

Nov 1st 2008, 22:06

@ D. ATTARD: It seems you are not Christian, Catholic, otherwise you know that when one get's married life, By not observing God's Commandments, unless you not an atheist, you should observe ? The covenant of marriage made by God is in fact a covenant which husband and wife make with each other and with God on the Alter if married in Church. In marriage they pledge their love, loyalty, and devotion to each other as long as they are both alive as husband and wife and to accept each other unconditionally, to share each other's pain and failures, to rejoice in each other's victories and accomplishments.
Yet in Malta many are those that are not taking notes of these marriage pledges that they had taken on the alter and in the presence of God Himself? Adam and Eve had been God's creative work not complete until He made woman. God could have made Eve from dust of the ground, but chose to make Eve just from man's flesh and bone.
Thus this illustrated for us that in marriage man and woman are symbolically united into one, a mystical union of the couple's hearts and lives.

D Attard

Nov 1st 2008, 12:05

@ Johnny Smith

Wow that's some warped logic! Maltese couples can get a divorce from abroad if they can afford it.
It is not fair that others who can't afford it remain in a status quo, therefore divorce should be introduced.

CATHOLICS CAN OPT OUT OF IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Johnny Smith

Nov 1st 2008, 09:47

Further to the Divorce effects in Malta!!!:

Joseph Muscat declared to be introducing Divorce in the Maltese Islands, but I ask, if Malta did not want to repair military vessels of the two super powers [Section 1 (e)] then if the Constitution of MALTA in section two (2) para 1(1); (2); and (3) It refers to (a) "the religion of Malta is the Roman Catholic Apostolic Religion.", (b) "The authorities of the Roman Catholic Apostolic Church have the duty and the right to teach which principles are right and which are wrong." (c) Finally, it says "Religious teaching of the Roman Catholic Apostolic Faith shall be provided in all STATE schools as part of compulsory education."

Therefore, if one of the party and union protested against the repair of ships with warheads as this is in the constitution, then how on earth can we now accept something which goes against our religion' rights???

Johnny Smith

Nov 1st 2008, 09:34

Further to Divorce effects:
Therefore, “If divorce and death rates remain unchanged, only 10% of couples marrying this year will make it through to their diamond wedding anniversary in 2068.” This was estimated to be 45% of marriages will end in divorce and another 45% in the death of one of the partner.. It was also reported that “until the second half of the 20th century divorce was a relative rare event. In 1901 there were 512 divorced persons in England and Wales, when in the year 2001 this went up to 141,135.”

Criminologist asked "what is causing all these divorces and are also connected to crime violations? Through studies it was established that males are more likely to commit crimes. I These are between 12 to 18 years they are more likely to commit a crime. However, the majority factor indicated that these had parenting indication, and among the strongest predictors was of juvenile involvement in crime, (Knife crime had increased in U.K.) especially when the family environment is absent, such as due to separations or divorce. This is a Fact in Malta too, can anyone say.....Why not, don't we first cure such wounds!!!

Johnny Smith

Nov 1st 2008, 09:26

Further on divorce effects:
“those not brought up by both parents were more likely to have experienced educational problems, drug addiction, alcoholism problem, serious debt problems and also unemployment too.” The report also stated “the cohabiting parents with young children were more than twice as likely as married parents to split up, regardless of age, income and other socio-economic background factors.”
John Carvel, the Editor for Social affairs of The Guardian on 28th March 2008 wrote that the Office for National Statistics of England & Wales stated “almost half of all marriages [in this country] will end up in divorce if this current trends continued, this was due to the bleak forecast coming after a report showing the number of marriages in 2006 to have been the lowest for 110 years.” He further reported “If divorce and death rates remain unchanged, only 10% of couples marrying this year will make it through to their diamond wedding anniversary in 2068.” If these are the result from divorce, would it be good for the state to enter into such further disbursement on budget days on the state of Malta? Therefore, as to what happened in other countries, we should reflect!!!!!

C. Mc Neil

Nov 1st 2008, 08:20

Effect of Divorce:::
As we all know from news on television or newspapers that criminality in the Britain had increased enormously, especially when divorce was introduced. The reason that this year (1975) was quoted because it was near the year when divorce was introduced. The Social Justice Commission of the UK with its Chairman the Rt. Hon. George Iain Duncan Smith PC., MP. listed 190 recommendations to address such problems of social decay, like high crime rates, low aspirations, low educational attainment, & high dependency on the state.

Since the early 1970's there has been a decline in marriages (annually fallen by one third) and marked a big rise in the numbers of lone parents families. It was also reviled that “those not brought up by both parents were more likely to have experienced educational problems, drug addiction, alcoholism problem, serious debt problems and also unemployment too.”

C. Mc Neil

Nov 1st 2008, 08:16

Afterwards effect of Divorce in other countries:
A study effected by Dr. Patricia Morgan, a British Criminologist in her most important report stated that after effecting a lot of studies in U.K. and again also in the United States of America discovered a clear link between the braking-up of families and criminality. National Development Study held in the U.K. In the year 1975 on 18,000 young children before they became sixteen years, the majority had already appeared before the court for some criminal offence. The result on boys was as follows:-

8 % those who lived with natural parents (divorced)
16 % coming from single mothers.
19 % coming from women living with another man (divorced or separated)
70 % of those in prison came from families without a natural father (broken families)

As we all know from news on television or newspapers that criminality in the Britain had increased enormously, especially when divorce was introduced. The reason that this year (1975) was quoted because it was near the year when divorce was introduced.

Franco Farrugia

Oct 31st 2008, 20:16

@ Mr Anthony Mizzi - Mr Martinelli is now comfortably living in Canada but still finds the time, I wonder why, to put his nose into the internal, day-to-day affairs of a tiny Mediterranean island like ours. God only knows how come he doesn't pursue more interesting subjects in his adoptive country.

Whatever the Archbishop reportedly said, those who want to listen, let them listen. That's exactly why we live in a democracy within a secular state. Those who don't want to listen, won't listen.

Anyway, Martinelli has his catholic hierarchy to listen to. So no need to thank our bishop.

Anthony Mizzi

Oct 31st 2008, 18:43

If as stated by J Martinelli ( who is he anyway?) the Archbishop's words ar clear as a bell for those who want to listen, the Archbiship should also profess himself on other issues aside from divorce, as silence is deafening .

One issue would certainly be the hardship families will be enduring with the imposed and not forseen in March 2008 increased water electricity and gas tariffs.

There have been many an Archbishop in history who has come out to profess themselves on their countryman's hardships. Malta always seem to be the exception to the rule.

J Martinelli

Oct 31st 2008, 17:11

If the Bishop's words to Dr. Muscat were as reported above, I find them diplomatic, measured, wise while firm, and a clear demonstration of unyielding principles.

Thank you Archbishop. Your words are clear as a bell for those who want to listen.

D Attard

Oct 31st 2008, 15:59

@Jean Gatt
Have you ever heard of a notion were people disagree on opinions but can still have a civil relationship? Judging by your comment, I suppose not.

If JM speaks in favour of divorce, it is not because he'sin favour of Church challenges, but because he knows very well that Maltese couples who afford divorce go and claim it from abroad. He also knows the meaning of secularism, a term many fervent Catholics refuse to understand. And he is also aware of the fact that not all of Malta upholds Roman Catholicism.

A good Catholic, I hope you agree, would respect and tolerate different opinions/beliefs from that which he or she holds. So denying them a right to divorce would be very uncatholic. Anyway NSO has just issued the statistic that 6% of marriages in 2007 included divorcees. Meaning that divorce does not only divide but it can also unite.

L.Coleiro

Oct 31st 2008, 15:37

@Jean Gatt

Ok so now it's also Dr. Muscat's fault that the church is facing social challenges. What are you gonna accuse him of next? maybe that he caused the earthquake in Pakistan??

The blue lemmings are running out of arguments!!!!!!!

Jason Fenech

Oct 31st 2008, 15:35

Why should the church be respected by the state is anyone's guess! Ah, right. Forgot this is Malta. What we need is a more secular government. Church and state do not mix, period. The government can certainly decide on its own without the petty intervention of clergy. While risking stating the obvious, the issue here is that Mr. Politician wants to look good by striking the “98% "catholic Malta” string. And what better way to do it if not by kissing his holiness hands! Appalling, to say the least.

Charlo DCamilleri

Oct 31st 2008, 15:29

@ Jean Gatt
Pls stop it about being Catholic and introducing divorce.
Yes, we need to introduce it in the country. Are not many couples living as if divorce was introduced? At least we will have some stability and we know where we are.
And do not pretend that the values YOU PRETEND to live can be seen, because the value of love cannot be seen in your comment.

Charles J Buttigieg

Oct 31st 2008, 14:45

@ Frans Sammut\ Franco Farrugia.
With hindsight being a 20\20 vision we need a marriage between priests and politicians like we need a hole in our head. Let there be a harmonious relationship with mutual respect for each other but the two must restrict their roles to what they’re good at. Politicians administer the state affairs and the church takes care of the spiritual needs. I know that you both agree.

Jean Gatt

Oct 31st 2008, 14:21

"He said that he viewed the Church as facing a challenging time because of a changing social scenario."

Dr.Muscat is quite double-faced when it comes to Church matters. First he said that he is in favour of introducing divorce in the country and then speaking of how the Church is facing difficulties. He is the one trying to create these difficulties!

I have nothing wrong in him visiting HE Cremona yet he should stand by the "values" (which is fail to see) which he observes.

It semms that so far Dr.Muscat has been contradicting himself just to look good with everyone.

Dr.Muscat please decide!!!

fredmalla

Oct 31st 2008, 13:04

it is a good gesture by Dr Joseph Muscat to pay a courtesy visit to HE the Archbishop. They have a lot to discuss for the benefit of the maltese nation.

it is our hope that when in Goverment , Dr Muscat will give more liberty to the Church, which at the present time, is allowed to celebrate village feasts just to distract the people's attention from the real problems, but is being treated as the 'Church in China'on other matters!

Franco Farrugia

Oct 31st 2008, 12:48

While I completely agree that the Church should be respected by the State, I still believe that the politician should be left alone to legislate within a State which is secular. Nothing more and nothing less, Mr Sammut. No innuendoes, please.

Frans Sammut

Oct 31st 2008, 12:23

Once again I must congratulate Dr Joseph Muscat on his public relations. Such visits augur extremely well for the future. I would suggest the Leader of the Opposition would do well to pay a similar visit to the Bishop of Gozo. Regardless of the recent developments in church going patterns and related matters, the Catholic Church in Malta still represents a great majority of the Maltese people, her views are still immensely important and Church-State relations should continue to be very high up on the priority list of state institutions, not only those pertaining to the Government of the day, but to the Opposition as well. It is high this fact is understood and appreciated by all our politicians whatever their convictions.