Auschwitz and abortion: insulting, making a dangerous comparison

K. Pullicino

Oct 18th 2008, 18:44

@Maria Ferstl:

Criminalisation does not make things worse. If anything, it encourages women to seek real support, not succumb to the lies of some foreign abortionist.

Also, the law should send to jail the people who perform abortions (the "doctors") and thankfully, I have yet to hear of a woman being imprisoned in Malta for committing an abortion. Common sense always prevailed, and the Courts and the authorities in general, always referred anyone that needs help to someone that can provide it.

And in your reply to D Attard, are you saying that the foetus is some sort of aggressor that has to be put down because he "attacked" the woman, using the excuse of "self-defense"?

Maria Ferstl

Oct 18th 2008, 15:11

@K. Pullicino
Nothing good comes out of abortion. But criminalisation makes things worse (backstreet abortions etc.). And after all it's absolute nonsense to send those women to jail. They don't put anyone of us in danger, and they will have to live with their guilt anyway. Not enough? Besides that, being stigmatised like criminals, they are less likely to be able to accept and to support a child in the future. And not to forget, both in jail and afterwards the taxpayer will have to support them. What for?

@ D Attard
"Abortion is murder. A grave one because one knows 100% that one is killing an Innocent being."
Sorry, you are blatantly wrong. Depending on the circumstances, to kill somebody is either murder or it isn't (self defence etc.). The innocence or not of the victim doesn't make a murder graver or less grave! This relativism is very dangerous. May I suppose you would accept the concept of death penalty (as it should not affect innocent persons)?

K. Pullicino

Oct 18th 2008, 12:12

@Emma Xerri:
"I have often observed that nobody gives a hoot about the children born in the sewers of South America who are routinely machine-gunned like vermin, or the children in India working in shipyard wrecking yards or young children chained by their legs weaving carpets for hours on end

No, there is no bother with the countless suffering of the poor of this world and the injustices heaped on them, but woe be it if you harm a foetus."

Oh, really? Case in point, I suppose that's why there was a strong "Campaign against Poverty" all-over Malta yesterday, then.
Don't mix arguments and simply tell us what good comes out from abortion.

Emma Xerri

Oct 18th 2008, 07:06

@Vincent Zerafa. Arguments predicated on belief in a god defy logic and reason because no one has yet ever proven the existence of a supreme being called God.

The invisible man in the sky has been invoked countless times but he cares little for these pathetic creatures who think so highly of themselves, that they think the creator of the Universe is looking after them and is interested in what they do, and loves them so much he is willing to consign them to eternal flames and damnation after the trials and tribulations of this life are over. What a preposterous, violent monkey we humans are.

@Maria Ferstl. I agree. The anti-abortion issue is not about saving babies, it is just anti-woman. I have often observed that nobody gives a hoot about the children born in the sewers of South America who are routinely machine-gunned like vermin, or the children in India working in shipyard wrecking yards or young children chained by their legs weaving carpets for hours on end

No, there is no bother with the countless suffering of the poor of this world and the injustices heaped on them, but woe be it if you harm a foetus.

Carmel Serracino-Inglott

Oct 18th 2008, 00:15

To all

Abortion is murder. A grave one because one knows 100% that one is killing an Innocent being. I want to be counted as against murder and so I stood up so that everyone sees me.

D Attard

Oct 17th 2008, 19:55

If someone is pro-choice, it does not necessarily mean that given the option they would abort. They simply mean that they will not decide for others.

Vincent Zerafa

Oct 17th 2008, 19:49

@ Mr. Mark Grima

"Good lawyers and scientists understand what constitutes good evidence, and what does not."

So according to your logic and reasoning, we, who are not good lawyers and scientists, should just shut up and accept what the good lawyers and scientists dictate?

Even these do not agree on many issues! For example there are scientists who believe in a Creator and others who don't.

According to MY logic and reasoning, I do not agree with Mr. Dingli's and your views.

K. Pullicino

Oct 17th 2008, 17:49

"My only concern reading all this junk is that there are far too many people who evidently think this country "belongs" only to Catholics."

"Far too many people"? From all the "junk" below all I see is one person claiming that Malta is his (excluding yourself, of course). And you manage to conclude that there are "far too many people"?

Also, I'm pretty sure that you can still convince the majority that you're right (whatever your point is) and get your own way so, as you can see, Malta is still yours.

l Galea

Oct 17th 2008, 17:44

Murder is murder whether you believe in God or not.

To all the pro-abortionists: You will not have been able to write your pro-abortion comments had your mother decided to abort you.

Raphael Vassallo

Oct 17th 2008, 17:36

Kyle, stop twisting other people's comments. I was only reacting to J Farrugia's appropriation of the entire country to the exclusion of non-believers. Quite frankly I couldn't care less about comparisons between abortion and Auschwitz, which are as childish as they are pointless.

Meanwhile it is clear that some people can't talk about anything in life without dragging abortion into the argument. My only concern reading all this junk is that there are far too many people who evidently think this country "belongs" only to Catholics. Well, it doesn't.

K. Pullicino

Oct 17th 2008, 17:19

Let's think about it:

1. Embryology says that a new human being forms at the moment of nuclear syngamy; when the nuclei of the gametes fuse together.
2. This new human being, called a zygote, has a full human genome but unlike an adult human being, he/she has less cells (starts with 1 cell).
3. The zygote performs all the necessary life functions (the famous seven functions) which means that the zygote is alive.
4. Is the zygote a person (does he/she have the right to live)? Since no one contests a 1 year-old baby's right to life and a baby is, like a zygote, unable of self-consciousness then, logically, a zygote also has a right to life unless he/she is not directly endangering the mother's life.

This means that an embryo has a right to be cared for by his/her mother, or at least by the society. We have a duty (oh my, it's this scary word again) to protect him/her.

As you can see I didn't mention God or religion. If our law gets to a point that it discriminates between born humans and not, then it would be a farce.

George Debono

Oct 17th 2008, 16:42

Just had a peep ............

Apart from heartily agreeing with Raphael and making one single comment, I don't particularly wish to enter into the discussion.

My comment:

Why must people insist on mixing up things like hunting, abortion and racism (or, in this case, Auschwitz).

These are separate issues altogether and mixing them together in an attempt to bolster an argument on another isuse is totally illogical.


G

K. Pullicino

Oct 17th 2008, 16:37

"This country happens to belong to the rest of us too, you know. And that includes atheists like myself and others."

Oh, so being an atheist requires one to support abortion?

If atheists believe in the freedom of the individual then it doesn't make sense to allow abortions. They should forcefully discourage everyone from denying life to other human beings.

If not, then you're simply an egoist that is afraid of calling himself a Christian.

Raphael Vassallo

Oct 17th 2008, 16:16

@J Farrugia "If you don't like it here in Malta, you are free to get out of our country."

YOUR country? This country happens to belong to the rest of us too, you know. And that includes atheists like myself and others.

Maria Ferstl

Oct 17th 2008, 16:04

Sorry, but I really don't care about all this topic, as it doesn't make much sense to discuss it. Abortions always existed and always will exist. (The only chance might be the invention of the artificial womb, allowing to adopt other people's embryos...) If Maltese women have them abroad, this doesn't make them holier than the rest of the world!

There is exactly 1 thing one can do to prevent abortions: not to have one!

What had upset me was the insult to Auschwitz victims. Daqshekk!

K. Pullicino

Oct 17th 2008, 15:55

"Yes, no doubt they are innocent. But I guess they'd suffer more being born to parents who wouldn't love them..."

I have a lot of problems at the moment but I don't go: "I didn't want to be born so that I could have avoided all of this." That sort of thinking stems from a twisted society.

J Farrugia

Oct 17th 2008, 15:54

Mark Grima, If you do not believe in God and in true morality, it's your problem. But to those who believe you have no right to impose your atheism on others. I won't take any lessons from people like you. If you don't like it here in Malta, you are free to get out of our country.

K. Pullicino

Oct 17th 2008, 15:53

There are no religious arguments involved when it comes to why abortion shouldn't be allowed in a free society. I do agree that comparing the nazis to women who committed an abortion is wrong since the nazis are the doctors that misinform women purposely to make money out of their problems.

But, even without religious arguments, abortion cannot be justified except in cases where the mother's life is in danger.

Miriam Maria Micallef

Oct 17th 2008, 15:45

Zammit,

What exact cases are you talking about? I mean, when is a pregnancy ever a threat to a mother's life? It is a fallacy that was invented by the pro abortion side to impress the liberals. It simply has no medical basis!

Miriam Maria Micallef

Oct 17th 2008, 15:43

Maria Festl,

So you are pro choice for abortion? How exactly does that make you any better if you don't mind me asking? I mean, if a baby dies, a women is generally pushed into an abortion by men or her parents and then suffers most of the rest of her life because of it, how does this make your position as a woman yourself like me so worthy of admiration exactly?? I mean, what is going on here? Don't you see the absurdity of this?

Miriam Maria Micallef

Oct 17th 2008, 15:37

The pro choice for abortion lot are out again. How odd that they are all seem to ban together against religion on abortion? Then they wonder why so many fear that divorce will lead to abortion when these old chaps are so ready to attack even hard scientific proof of life starting at conception so readily.
These lot are the first to attack anyone who fears their arguments because there is much truth in the force for freedom for choice for divorce and abortion.
It is the same people who are so forceful for divorce who seem to also be anti-religious and see abortion only as a religious argument that ought to fall in the name of liberalism.
Mark Grima, the evidence is tilting in favor of life every day yet you choose to pretend it is not. There is a major shift in attitudes to life based on scientific facts. You will choose to ignore this only because you are so blinded by the ideal of liberalism. Liberalism, wow, how freeing for the unborn and the woman shackled by abortion all her life while you men pop off to the pub for yet another bitter.

Maria Ferstl

Oct 17th 2008, 15:37

Yes, no doubt they are innocent. But I guess they'd suffer more being born to parents who wouldn't love them...

Mark Grima

Oct 17th 2008, 15:24

@Peter Dingli. Excellent letter. You have my total agreement.

Why are the best letters always from people who live in other countries?

@ Vincent Zerafa. Logic and reason derive from evidence-based thinking. Good lawyers and scientists understand what constitutes good evidence, and what does not. Your comment "Logic and reason according to whom" is....er....illogical. You either have good reasons for what you believe or you do not. Mr Dingli's comment is perfectly fair.

Maria Ferstl

Oct 17th 2008, 15:10

@Miriam Maria Micallef
No, I'm not "pro-abortion" at all, but I don't see why I should care about OTHER people's wombs. After all it's THEIR own decision not to give a chance to THEIR offsprings (and it's THEM who won't propagate their DNA). The world is already overcrowded, isn't it? And what do "pro-life" activists do for all those children starving to death on other continents? NOTHING, because it's not children they care about, but controlling women. What hypocrisy!

Vincent Zerafa

Oct 17th 2008, 14:26

"Arguments predicated on belief in a god by their very nature defy logic and reason."

Mr. Dingli, logic and reason according to whom?

Edward Zammit

Oct 17th 2008, 13:47

I do not agree with abortion unless the life of the mother is in danger, because I firmly believe that I know what I have now but can have no guarantee on the future. However, to impose my opinion on others is totally selfish, rude, and tyrannical to say the least.

Andy Towler

Oct 17th 2008, 13:13

@Mr Debono:

"As a medical doctor I am absolutely positive that at the time of conception a new life is born, therefore at any stage of pregnancy, abortion means murder of another human being."

And as if it needs pointing out, that's YOUR view, and your views are not shared (or indeed needed) by all.

Miriam Maria Micallef

Oct 17th 2008, 12:01

Peter Dingli ses his views as less harmful. He knows nothing about how women suffer after an abortion and it seems he would rather the story was not told. That is truly harmful.

Miriam Maria Micallef

Oct 17th 2008, 12:00

Peter Dingli seems to think that any argument for life is a religious one. And since when was a person who has faith not allowed to express his or her opinion? There is a clear attempt to silence religion and believers this is what is very dangerous as it goes against our constitution and the universal right to expression.
Peter says that it is shameful. What is shameful Mr Dingli is your attempt to silence people who have an opinion. You live in a country where abortion is legal but still wrong. This is truly what is shameful. Why so much fear of a small little unborn baby? The strong are preying over the weak again.

Miriam Maria Micallef

Oct 17th 2008, 11:55

Maria,

Babies are perishing every day by abortion. Pro abortion is nothing but pro murder of an innocent human being. Laws for abortion do not make abortion OK. If Germany have a problem reconciling their past, let them have a problem with that. As far as I am concerened what is happening before our eyes is a holocaust on unimaginable levels. 55 million babies died last year, 90% because they where not convenient. How sick is that. Revolting!

J Farrugia

Oct 17th 2008, 10:51

@ Maria Fersti - you will never shut our mouths when there is life involved. YES, the comparison made by John Scerri is right.. And no constitutional court will ever barr our right to defend human life. BUT the Criminal court is there to stop women from committing abortions and punishing those who commit such an atrocity. That's the difference between morality and immorality.

Jason Debono

Oct 17th 2008, 10:08

@Mr. Dingli

Since when is abortion a religious argument??

Is killing of another human being not punishable by law?

The only argument is that people who are in favour of abortion, state (uncorrectly) that a foetus is not a human being, therefore by doing an abortion you are in fact not killing another human being.
Some authorities even give a period during which an abortion is legal, after which it is illegal, stating that before this period a foetus is not a human being!!! (usually the first trimster)

As a medical doctor I am absolutely positive that at the time of conception a new life is born, therefore at any stage of pregnancy, abortion means murder of another human being.

Maria Ferstl

Oct 17th 2008, 09:24

I agree 100%. It's extremely bad taste.

BTW in Germany the use of the word "babycaust" for "abortion" in pro-life campaigns has even been forbidden by a constitutional court decision.