Colour is not an issue

Antoine Vella (Balzan)

Sep 21st 2008, 00:45

Kenneth Cassar

I find all forms of discrimination abhorrent and contemptible, including, obviously racism. This does not stop me from accepting the notion that human races do exist. You also, indirectly refer to races when you mention intermediates - they have to be intermediate between races otherwise the term would be meaningless.

All species, whether plant or animal, which inhabit a wide range of habitats and geographical regions are known to have races so, if such groupings were absent in humans, we would be an exception to a biological rule.

Races developed because groups of humans drifted away from each other and evolved in isolation. The different populations became adapted to the different surroundings (e.g. more melanin, and therefore darker skin, in sunnier areas and vice-versa).

What is happening at the present time is that, because of improved communications, this isolation is breaking down. People travel more ever before and there is a lot of inter-mingling going on. In theory, all individual humans will eventually have such diverse ancestries that it will no longer be possible to distinguish between races though I have no idea how long this would take.

Kenneth Cassar

Sep 20th 2008, 11:33

@ Etienne Bonanno:

"Women's rights and illegal immigration are two separate issues. Lumping them both under the heading of "discrimination" is either naiive or, again, dishonest".

If you read carefully, I did not lump together illegal immigration and women's rights. What I did is "lump together" racism and sexism. Racism is not synonymous with illegal immigration.

I was neither naive nor dishonest.

Kenneth Cassar

Sep 20th 2008, 11:29

@ Etienne Bonanno:

To split races into groups is to deny the existance of intermediates.

Etienne Bonano

Sep 20th 2008, 10:52

@Kenneth Cassar
P.S. It is not "one scientist" saying there are differences between the races. It is accepted without question within the scientific and medical community. Denying is is like stating that the sky is not blue.

Women's rights and illegal immigration are two separate issues. Lumping them both under the heading of "discrimination" is either naiive or, again, dishonest.

Etienne Bonanno

Sep 20th 2008, 10:31

@Kenneth Cassar
Not admitting to discrimination based on race is not the same thing as dismissing the existence of different races One is an ideological matter, the other flies in the face of all known evidence as well as common sense. Equating the two stances is tantamount to dishonesty in your argument.

Antoine Vella (Balzan)

Sep 19th 2008, 22:38

I. Galea
I have looked for and not found any quote of the Prime Minister saying we are being invaded. There was only one instance of an unsigned newspaper article (Malta Independent) in which it was claimed that the PM was reported to have said - second or third-hand information.

Raymond Sammut
I do not read the Telegraph and am not familiar with any of the foreign commentators you quote so I cannot confirm whether they are respectable or not. Regarding the Malta Independent article, see above.

At any rate, this does not negate the fact that Clews is another member of the we-must-do-something brigade.

Rory O'Neill

Sep 19th 2008, 22:34

The Government of Malta should take the same line as that of Australia, if you cannot support yourself and your family with worthwhile employment, then we do not want you! A Policy that has been sadly lacking in the UK for the last 30 years. The Maltese people are wonderfully proud Islanders who should not let the Maltese Government let immigration get out of control. My wife and I have returned to your Superb Island for annual holidays for more years than I can remember, please do not let it be spoiled by a lack of "sensible control"

I look forward to mixing with you Superb Maltese People again in October.

Rory O'Neill
Gosport,England

Kenneth Cassar

Sep 19th 2008, 19:06

@ Etienne Bonanno:

The work of one scientist stating that there are genetic differences between races, still does not justify racism, which is about treating individuals not as individuals, but as members of a race.

The fact that there is genetic differences between the sexes is relatively uncontroversial, but this, again, does not justify discrimination on the bases of sex.

I'm sure you get my point.

Raymond Sammut

Sep 19th 2008, 18:56

@Antoine Vella

Re. your remark: “...no respectable politician, journalist, etc, calls it an "invasion".

(1)On Malta Vista, The Daily Telegraph (London) 21/9/2005, in “Malta fears it will sink under growing tide of migrants from Africa” David Rennie wrote:

“The invasion of Malta is accidental: the boats are heading for the Italian islands of Lampedusa and Sicily, which offer direct access to the rest of Italy.”

(2)On Saturday 30/6/2007, MaltaMedia reported Jonathan Miller, Foreign affairs correspondent For Channel4 News, writing:

“With the annual clandestine invasion now in full swing, there are ever more boats to rescue. In recent days the Maltese Navy's been running a shuttle service, ferrying boatloads of African illegals to shore from their overcrowded, sinking dinghies.”

(3)The Malta Independent Online, in “Illegal immigrants continue to flood in”, on Sunday, 8/6/2008 reported:

Meanwhile, speaking to Italian journalists, Prime Minister Lawrence Gonzi was reported to have said that last year Malta received between 1700 and 1800 illegal immigrants, which taken proportionately would have been around a million and a half in Italy. “We cannot receive more illegal immigrants than we are getting,” Dr Gonzi was reported to have said. “This is an invasion.”

l Galea

Sep 19th 2008, 18:23

@Kenneth Cassar
Not all illegal immigrants are black, but the vast majority of them are.

Etienne Bonanno

Sep 19th 2008, 18:11

...cont...
which is the name by which this erroneous idea has come to be known and which is an example of the danger that is afforded by science when it is misused and abused for reasons of ideology.
Unfortunately that mainstream press has still not realised the fallacy of this statement and others deriving from it, such as the canard uttered by Kenneth Cassar below. Indeed, apparently neither have some professionals in the field of genetics, as I distinctly remember a well respected professor in genetics at the University of Malta again repeating Lewontin's fallacy on a popular TV discussion programme on Maltese TV. Now to my mind there are only two possible explanations for such behaviour - 1. dishonesty prompted by ideology or 2. a genuine ignorance of the more recent rebuttals - none of which bode well for the future of genetic studies in Malta!

Etienne Bonanno

Sep 19th 2008, 18:01

@Kenneth Cassar
Note that contrary to what you are stating, science has definitely NOT shown that race is a social construct - it is only left wing liberal ideologues who have attempted to put that idea forward together with the rest of all the boulderdash that is postmodernism. On the contrary, there is a wealth of scientific evidence that there are indeed substantial differences between the races, most of which are indeed genetic.
Incidentally I would like to comment on the common aphorism often trumpeted in the press that the genetic differences between individuals within the same race is often greater that that between individuals of different races. This result was inferred in a 1972 paper by Richard Lewontin named "The apportionment of human diversity". Incidentally Lewontin is one of those left wing ideologues I was talking about together with the famous Gould, another evolutionary biologist. Now this paper (and subsequent book by the same author) has since been proven unsound due to faulty statistical treatment of the data. The most famous of these rebuttals, for anybody who would like to look it up is a paper by A.W.F. Edwards named "Human Genetic Diversity: Lewontin's Fallacy" ...cont.

Kenneth Cassar

Sep 19th 2008, 17:49

@ Raymond Sammut:

Fair enough. "Blacks out" could have been spray painted by the Jesuits. Come on! At least R Zammit was intelligent enough to notice that the message was meant for the immigrants normally found there.
_________________________________

@ a. cassar:

Yes, I do "admit" that there are 'those who are honestly concerned about the immigration problem', as I always did. I only mentioned the "Blacks out" thiing because some people actually deny there are lots of racists among us. And as to prove me right, someone actually tried to justify the slogan!
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@ l Galea:

What is racist about "Blacks out"? So suddenly it stops being racist just because the vast majority of immigrants are black? Have you noticed that you yourself are claiming that not all illegal immigrants are black, while the slogan only refers to Black people (and not necessarily immigrants)?

I am amazed how some people do not recognise a straight-forward racist slogan for what it is.
________________________________

@ Louise Vella:

You still have not answered my question. Or are you just a "talk-gooder" or "write-gooder" too?

l Galea

Sep 19th 2008, 17:19

@Kenneth Cassar

You say that "blacks out" is racist.

What is racist about it when the vast majority of illegal immigrants are black?

l Galea

Sep 19th 2008, 17:17

@Antoine Vella
So are you saying that our Prime Minister Dr Lawrence Gonzi who himself has aptly called this as an illegal immigrants invasion is not a respectable politician?

Then what would you call it Mr Vella?

Charles sammut

Sep 19th 2008, 17:13

Stanley Clews, don't let it bother you.

Remember, some people are profiting handsomely from this uncontrolled influx of unassimilable immigrants. They provide services and commodities to them and would see their income shrink drasically with the disappearance of this phenomenon.

There is a very limited number of epithets which these illegal immigrant huggers can call us. They never come up with one single VALID argument why illegal immigration is good for us however.

Their thoughts are so mixed up that they preach "Strength in Diversity" and "All Different All Equal" two oxymorons in themselves and then they imagine an Utopia where everybody is the same through inter-racial breeding.

I would rather be a racist than a fool.

louise vella

Sep 19th 2008, 16:37

Has anybody noticed that some persons in government, who should be defending the national interest, actually speak like NGOs? NGOs do not need to stand for election because there are enough ministers and parliamentarians who are happy to submit to their pressure.

Antoine Vella (Balzan)

Sep 19th 2008, 15:57

Stanley J.A Clews
"...as far as I know I.M. Beck has never come forward with any positive proposals to solve this problem."

You have not come forward with any positive proposals yourself either. Pleading for some unspecified "urgent action" is hardly a proposal.

PS. ...and, by the way, no respectable politician, journalist, etc, calls it an "invasion".

a.cassar

Sep 19th 2008, 15:45

@ Kenneth cassar
So you admit that there are 'those who are honestly concerned about the immigration problem' and why shouldn't we speak out when we know we are being honest in our protest Just because someone sprayed Blacks out? what if someone sprayed No to divorce? would the anti divorcist stop talking about the subject? there will always be tose who try to take advantage from someone else's point of view. it is not our fault (not that we really care, mind you) that we were lumped together with the racists.

Charles Camilleri

Sep 19th 2008, 15:26

WEll Done Stanley. Labeling people like you ( who opposed the influx of clandestine people into Malta ) racists is the only weapon they have. They just forget all the consequences that this great number of foreigners with different culture, religion etc would have on such a small island. Even in much bigger countries the consequences are there fall all those who care to see.

Raymond Sammut

Sep 19th 2008, 15:10

@ Kenneth Cassar

No one in their right mind is ever going to play into the hands of racists or of anyone else. It is you who is playing into the hands of those who spray graffiti, whether they be racists, criminals, deceivers, or otherwise. It is you, and only you at least on this comments board, who is assuming that the type of graffiti you are referring to were sprayed necessarily by racists and not by anyone else with an agenda of their own. You would not make a good detective, I don't think.

Michelle Dali

Sep 19th 2008, 15:00

Well said, Stanley Clews!
Also, to Andre Micallef, you hit the nail right on the head in your comments about how people of the same race and colour can and do treat /illtreat each other. Combating illegal immigration and racism are two completely separate issues. Being concerned for one's country has nothing to do with being racist.

john fenech

Sep 19th 2008, 14:15

Provide the comments are focussed on the economical and security burden due to this phenomenon. While I respect the dignity of the illegal immigrants, then it is my right as a Maltese citizen to speak out, if in the process others do not agree tough luck!

Well done to Dr. S. Busuttil & the Minister of Justice delegate at 'Coreper' for their contribution to burden sharing and refugee settlement programme. Keep the ball rolling and the pressure on.

Kenneth Cassar

Sep 19th 2008, 13:56

@ Louise Vella:

Are you against homelessness and poverty? If yes, how many homeless and poor people do you keep in your home?

Kenneth Cassar

Sep 19th 2008, 13:54

@ Andre Micallef:

No, I don't happen to think that racism is one way only, and do know that black people can be racist to. Please don't assume anything about me. So this makes nonsense of most of your reply to me.

You then say that the preservation of one's race is part of human nature. Let's put aside that modern science has shown the concept of "race" as a human political construct and is not grounded in genetics. That said, does it not occur to you that claiming for the "preservation of one's race" (which effectively would require the prohibition of the intermingling of "races", including prohibition of "inter-racial" marriages is blatantly racist? As for culture, this has nothing to do with race.
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@ R. Zammit:

"Blacks out" is clearly racist - it neither specifies that it refers to "illegals", nor calls for white illegals to go out as well.

If the illegal (and I stress ILLEGAL apart from racist - the racist who painted it is also an idiot and a vandal) scribbling said "illegal immigrants out", it would be insensitive but not racist. As it is, it is clearly racist. Fortunately, such idiots are a minority.

E. Azzopardi

Sep 19th 2008, 13:47

You are not alone in this. The vast majority are fed up.. Now I greatly admire a European race for their efficiency, reliability , integrity etc etc and I can assure everyone they are not black.. But if I see that many of these lovely blonde people, who I greatly admire, are coming to Malta regularly like these Africans are doing, then I will do exactly what I do with these illegal immigrants. And by the way, these lovely people I admire have every right to come because they are in the EU and have a regular passport. But I will still worry about it. Colour does not come into it. There are other factors which are INCOMPATABLE with Malta and the Maltese.
We have mentioned these in the past and there is no need to repeat.

R. Azzopardi

Sep 19th 2008, 13:41

@L. Vella. Had I been in front of you, I would have given you a standing ovation. Truer words were never spoken!

louise vella

Sep 19th 2008, 12:40

You're very right, Major Clews.
Do you know of any journalists who host illegal immigrants in their houses?
All words, little or no action.
They do not even deserve to be called do-gooders because they do nothing.
Talk-gooders or write-gooders maybe

l Galea

Sep 19th 2008, 11:48

@R.Zammit
And when the bubble bursts and everything gets out of control those who want to keep the illegal immigrants here will have to face the consequences of their actions.

This is apart from the far worse consequences on the illegal immigrants themselves if the worse comes to the worst.

The illegal immigrants defenders should go to the illegal immigrants own countries and work for them and defend them there.

So wake up authorities.

Smell the coffee repatriate ALL the ILLEGAL immigrants, including those who have overstayed their visa before its too late.

R.Zammit

Sep 19th 2008, 11:17

@Kenneth Cassar.

"Blacks Out" is not necessarily a racist comment, especially in the context and position it is displayed (behind the bus terminus).

Had there to be 200 odd blond blue eyed Barabarians every day, idle doing absolutely nothing behind the bus terminus, I'm sure somebody would then spray "Barbarians out" on the wall.

It is not a question of racism. It is an expression of discontent with the situation.

This situation is getting worse on a daily basis, and precious little is being done about it.

One day the bubble will burst......

Andre` Micallef

Sep 19th 2008, 11:04

@ Kenneth Cassar: You happen to be one of those who think that "racism" is one way only: whites bearing a grudge against blacks. Did it ever cross your mind that blacks can be racist too (not only against whites (witness the killings of white farmers by blacks in Zimbabwe) but also against other sub-races making up the black population, witness the Hutu vs Tutsi massacres in Rwanda more than a decade ago, and the genocide currently under way in Darfur). You seem to rely TOO MUCH on what the mainstream media spoonfeeds you, Kenneth. Thank God the Internet is such a fount of information from alternative sources.

For better or for worse, preservation of one's race and next-of-kin is part of human nature. If the Maltese and Europeans won't wake up and learn to appreciate and preserve their glorious identity, culture etc. then no one else will do it for them. The mainstream media in the western world seems intent on portraying non-whites as being all downtrodden and corrupted by Western Culture. I can't stand this scenario where Western Civilisation (without which the world would undoubtedly be a MUCH poorer place) is under attack from all quarters.

R. Azzopardi

Sep 19th 2008, 10:43

I cannot agree with you more Mr. Clews. The sheer numbers of these people landing on our shores are alarming.

Just this week I was watching a documentary about illegal immigrants crossing into the United States from Mexico. A kind individual drives round certain points of the desert every Saturday topping up 45 gallon drums with water for these people to drink. There are times when he finds immigrants on the verge of dying. They're dehydrated, disoriented, you get the picture. United States law forbids this person from giving these people a lift, even on humanitarian grounds. He can only provide them with water and send them on their way. Isn't it high time that we do the same?

l Galea

Sep 19th 2008, 10:07

The sheer number of illegal immigrants who are coming here and who are kept here at our expenses instead of being repatriated is going to cause all sorts of problems in future as it is already causing. They are all alien to our culture.

These illegal immigrants have absolutely NO right to be here, and this also includes all those who have overstayed their visa.

The vast majority of the Maltese citizens demand that expulsion and repatriation of all illegal immigrants must be the order of the day, not integration.

Kenneth Cassar

Sep 19th 2008, 09:55

Anyone doubting whether there is racism in Malta need only look at the "Blacks out" spray painted behind one of the ticketing kiosks at the Valletta bus terminus.

Unfortunately many of those who are honestly concerned about the immigration problem are playing right into the hands of the few with a clear racist agenda.