UPDATE 3: Woman dies during rescue as migrants' boat capsizes, infants ferried to hospital

Kaydee Zammit

Sep 29th 2008, 19:33

@ Daphne Caruana Galizia
Are you implying that the people living in Birzebbugia are alien cultures? Please, I beg of you, do not come to Birzebbugia! We too make our Ceaser salads with only three pieces of mozzarella, so you won't be able to share it with your friends. Or perhaps you have come to Birzebbugia before this and have been subject to racial discrimination entirely by mistake? Do write back. I await your response, typical of having a Sliema upbringing, which you are now blaming for not fitting in anywhere, instead of rightfully blaming it on your pitiful stances and ludicrous views.

Michael A. Vella

Sep 16th 2008, 14:37

Raymond Sammut;" ...at the cost of Maltese workers who belong to one of the job categories targeted by illegals such as cleaning, catering, farming, and construction." What you fail to mention is how many Maltese workers are there who still seek jobs in this sphere of work. Immigrants workers are only filling in vacancies that are increasingly less sought by the locals and, by so doing, they are playing a vital role in the general upkeep of the country and of the economy in general. The ironic aspect to all this is that the immigrant workers are contributing to the welfare benefits of the far too many Maltese who have taken up unemployment as their career.

"The cross-border movement of generally low-skilled, low-educated immigrants has depressed wages for unskilled native workers while helping keep consumer prices under control and inflating profits for employers." You should thus direct your ire towards the exploitative Maltese employers and not at the immigrants that they defraud of their just earnings.

Raymond Sammut

Sep 16th 2008, 06:14

George J. Borjas, a prominent economist at Harvard University, had this to say on USA Today, 4/11/2006.

Quote:

The cross-border movement of generally low-skilled, low-educated immigrants has depressed wages for unskilled native workers while helping keep consumer prices under control and inflating profits for employers.

Borjas estimates that workers lose $278 billion because of immigration, while employers gain $300 billion. “There's a huge redistribution away from workers to people who use immigrants,” says Borjas :Unquote

This is only one nightmare, the economic nightmare, that Malta is facing over the coming years. Maltese who employ illegal immigrants will continue to become wealthier at the cost of Maltese workers who belong to one of the job categories targeted by illegals such as cleaning, catering, farming, and construction.

When someone put their name on the line in defense of illegals, beware. There is big money to be had. This is only one reason why the Gonzi government is irresponsible for not deporting illegal immigrants. Dr Gonzi claims there is the “human” aspect to be taken into account, but the Prime Minister’s duty is to maintain equity among the citizenry rather than harbouring illegal immigrants.

Michael A. Vella

Sep 15th 2008, 22:20

Raymond Sammut: "...mean that the Ministry for Labour would be able to maintain an economic balance between labour supply and demand."

Or, more accurately, a gigantic step forward into the past. The website photo showing you 'stand up' confirms that you were certainly around in the atrocious 80's.

Raymond, EU is all about the free movement of people, goods and capital. The concept of command economies died over one generation ago.

Denis Catania@yahoo.com

Sep 15th 2008, 16:12

@Corrine Vella: They come to Malta illegally and they work illegally. Are they ever going to do anything legally? Do you condone them working on the SIDE?
Boycott all employers that hire illegals.Boycott all grocery stores that hire illegals. Once you hit their pocket they will stop hiring them.

Corinne Vella

Sep 15th 2008, 10:50

Raymond Sammut: Here's another point you're missing. Any EU citizen may, sooner or later, decide to join the job market here. Don't take my word for it. Ask Lou Lou Pepper.

Corinne Vella

Sep 15th 2008, 10:34

Raymond Sammut: "The Ministry for Labour would maintain an economic balance between labour supply and demand".

You're not exactly a free marketeer, are you? So much for your price setting in a free market. I think you need to buy a new economics primer - one with no missing pages, that is.

Corinne Vella

Sep 15th 2008, 10:32

Raymond Sammut: Make that 'exploitative employers'. Many are not.

Corinne Vella

Sep 15th 2008, 10:30

Raymond Sammut: You're going to need more than a basic economics textbook to make sense. Locking your competitors out of the market does not constitute fair competition. The issue is not the mechanism of price setting in a free market, but the below market price wages that are paid (if at all) by exploitative employees to employees who have no protection against abusive practices. In this case, it is correct to say that it is employers who are setting the low wages you complain about, seeing as employees, both actual and prospective, have no redress.

Raymond Sammut

Sep 14th 2008, 19:19

@ Michael A. Vella

"What Maltese workers are actually faced with where immigrant workers are concerned - be they regular or irregular - is not 'cheap labour', but fully legitimate and fair competition ... "

Your argument would hold if you only said "regular". You said, instead, "regular or irregular".

Regular (as opposed to irregular) would mean that the Ministry for Labour would be able to maintain an economic balance between labour supply and demand.

Michael A. Vella

Sep 14th 2008, 17:45

John Borg: "All I see from you is patronising remarks addressed to a few, but nothing constructive or convincing."

Actually the remarks are perfectly legitimate and pertinent counter-comments to ill-concealed expressions of varying degrees of racial and/or political prejudice.

What Maltese workers are actually faced with where immigrant workers are concerned - be they regular or irregular - is not 'cheap labour', but fully legitimate and fair competition in the form of job dedication, willingness to learn new skills, work commitment, stricter observance of working hours, all leading to higher productivity and, yes, the simple appreciation of the fact that one has a job.

As to derogatory remarks about 'employers', the very vast majority of employers operate in strict observance of the law; and that is a scenario where productivity is the key factor, and not cheap labour.

'Cheap labour' presents a challenge only to those Maltese workers who choose to work, as they say, 'bla ktieb', that is, dodging NI and other tax payments and who, by their irresponsible choice are the very ones that sustain in business the few exploitative employers that exist.

John Borg

Sep 14th 2008, 10:57

I said that I am dead against ALL abusers, legal ones and illegal ones! The ones that enter legally and remain overstayed are technically illegal too.. I hope you understand.
All I see from you is patronising remarks addressed to a few, but nothing constructive or convincing.
@Raymond Sammut: thanks for putting a more technical view to the gist of my argument. A perfect example of things to come...

Michael A. Vella

Sep 13th 2008, 18:46

John Borg: "The illegal immigrants landing by boats are not the only culprits. There are thousands more who entered Malta legally too."

So why are your complaints directed only at the 'illegal' ones?

Raymond Sammut

Sep 13th 2008, 18:38

@ Corinne Vella

"It is exploitative employers and not the exploited who are lowering wages."

Employers do not "lower" wages. In fact, nobody does.

Wages fall if labour supply exceeds demand. It is fundamental economics theory.

In economic terms, wage is simply "price", the price of one man-hour, which is set freely by the market (the "hidden hand of the free market").

This is the reason why employers do not complain about illegal immigration, and the Maltese government is being grossly irresponsible towards Maltese workers. The Maltese government is deliberately denying Maltese workers fair competition which is their basic right.

john borg

Sep 13th 2008, 16:42

@Corinne Vella: "That phenomenon pre-exists the arrival of immigrants by boat or by air. Why blame the new arrivals for a system that was entrenched before they'd even heard of this place, let alone arrived here?" - your words.
My exact words that you quoted me from "The illegal immigrants landing by boats are not the only culprits. There are thousands more who entered Malta legally too."
So why do you play around with your answers? Still, the fact that what they do to sponge benfits whilst working illegally, is ok for you in your eyes, just because there were others doing it before them? I ask anybody who wants to check how these immigrants learn to adapt to the systems of their host country to visit Geneva. The Swiss are paying the price for being humane with illegal immigrants some years back. Go see for yourselves how this City has changed both in culture and in the demographics. Don't just go once mind you. Go frequently, over a span of years and you can feel, touch and hear the difference.

Corinne Vella

Sep 13th 2008, 15:45

"They work illegally only to continue recieving benefits from the state, along with what they earn on the side."

That phenomenon pre-exists the arrival of immigrants by boat or by air. Why blame the new arrivals for a system that was entrenched before they'd even heard of this place, let alone arrived here?

Corinne Vella

Sep 13th 2008, 15:36

John Borg: "Genuine employees in the construction trade dare not ask for a wage increase, as they will be shown the door as the illegals are lowering the level of income and conditions. What do you tell these people?"

It is exploitative employers and not the exploited who are lowering wages.

Corinne Vella

Sep 13th 2008, 15:09

Brian Fenech: You are not obliged to read what I write. If it bores you, don't do so. You're assuming that if I listen long enough to arguments that are like a sieve, I will somehow be persuaded to adopt those views. Apply a little logic and accept that self-righteous indignation is a poor substitute for persuasive argument.

M. Dingli: It is unlikely that the verification of facts in this case would be possible in the few days since it happened. That is all by the by. So far, all we know is that the children are alone. Orphaned or not, they are more deserving of compassion than demonisation.

Geir Nilsen: Racist and xenophobe were John Borg's words, not mine.
It's not a good idea to identify with Dennis Catania's position without finding out where that is first, and you'd have a hard time doing that seeing as he's all over the place.
There is no such thing as a pro-immigration lobby on this page, though there is support for the idea that since immigration is happening it has to be coped with, whether everyone here likes it or not.

John Borg

Sep 13th 2008, 09:34

@Michael A Vella: "coming up with solutions" is unfortunately not my prerogative. That is the job of our politicians. My job, along with yours is to vote in the best suitable candidates. Our duty though is to speak out and let our thoughts be known. Irresepective of what you think, the gripes shown in the past months are gathering momentum and the politicians are desperately seeking remedies as they know that the situation is becoming a serious issue, contrary to what you may wish to have us believe. Regarding illegal employment and exploitation of these workers, many of the workers being exploited are not as innocent as you think. They work illegally only to continue recieving benefits from the state, along with what they earn on the side. They learn fast. Their employers are exploiting them, but also exploiting me, as I cannot compete by employing regular bona fide workers, pay overtime at legal rates, NI, taxes etc and bid for the same jobs on an equal footing.It is a vicious circle that is a serious threat to legitimate workers. The illegal immigrants landing by boats are not the only culprits. There are thousands more who entered Malta legally too.

Michael A. Vella

Sep 13th 2008, 00:53

John Borg: "My gripes are with our politicians. "

Indeed, there is no shortage of gripes expressed on this board, but now how about coming up with some even remotely tangible solutions to the perceived origin of those gripes.

Stating the same thing for (let's say) 14 months as, I believe, I B Dingli claims to have done is as pointless as standing by the road-side holding up a placard at the entrance of a mid-town tunnel in some godforsaken hick town in the US of A.

Michael A. Vella

Sep 13th 2008, 00:16

@John Borg: "And who says that the guys loitering in Marsa work legally? "

Persons living in open centres who find work are automatically entitled to a work permit.

If it is a question of anyone working illegally, then your concern should be addressed to the Maltese employers who are by exploiting individuals who may have no other job option, defrauding the state by failing to pay NI dues, and evading income tax, are the real criminals.

John Borg

Sep 12th 2008, 19:25

@Michael A Vella: Why are you tarring everyone with the same brush? I speak my own mind, though yes, it does seem to reflect the awesome majority of the Maltese public! I have no bones to pick with you, DCG or Corinne Vella et al. You are not in the position to change much. My gripes are with our politicians. They too share our sentiments, though they are afraid to be branded racists by people like you. They need votes, but alas, they are realising that this problem is going to cost them votes, hence their common front on this issue:silence. That way, we are left with no villians to blame for their lack of action, in hope that we will vote as normal, loyal to the party, because the others did no better, but boy are they wrong. The forthcoming MEP elections will be the first warning shot across the bow.. Just wait and see. Referring to your siege and attack mentality, I have never shown hostility towards anyone here, but yes, concrete arguments do get you both into frenzy, hence your constant beating around the bush. And who says that the guys loitering in Marsa work legally? you?

John Borg

Sep 12th 2008, 19:08

@Corinne Vella: I would never consider deportation of innocent minors. I would give them special protection and care as they are just innocent pawns in this sad charade, thrown into the fray for brownie points. Mind you, repatriation to their real family would be the best option, unless they were offered for adoption so that a caring family could love them as there own. We are not all racists here, though yes, our mentality lacks open mids able to debate real humane solutions sometimes. As with "dealing with things the way they are", the crux of the problem is that we are allowing things to escalate way beyond the physical, financial and charitable means our society can come up with. Strong, firm action has to be taken. We cannot allow anyone to be in a 2 class situation. Class A that pays taxes, NI etc and Class B that work illegaly, pay no taxes, claim benfits and are exploited whilst abusing the system. Genuine employees in the construction trade dare not ask for a wage increase, as they will be shown the door as the illegals are lowering the level of income and conditions. What do you tell these people?

John Borg

Sep 12th 2008, 15:56

@Corrine Vella: Corrine, I put forward simple, direct questions but you divert your replies to remarks made by others. Why? You shove the story of the infants into my face over and over again. I am human and of course I feel anguish and deep sorrow when infants (and pregnant women) are abused by their "owners" in this way. You should be pointing the guilt finger towards them and not me. I would never risk the lives of my nearest and dearest in that way. Had I been fleeing Somalia, ravaged by war, I would be tempted, true, but remember, these people are departing from Libya, a reletive safe haven. Now if Libya is maltreating and abusing it's own brotheren, then I am right to think that this is a huge scam, where dog eats dog and we are expected to make good for this gross abuse. At the same time, the mass colonisation of modern Europe will continue to gather momentum and we will just sit back and watch this drama unfold. When we realise what is becoming of our tiny Malta it will be too late and the pro-immigrant lobby will have departed to seek better pastures!

Corinne Vella

Sep 12th 2008, 09:17

Dennis Catania: The mother of these two children is reported to have died. How could she be arrested? Your claim that people should apply for migration from Libya is naive and misinformed or uninformed. I think it's a safe bet that you know very little about the place.

Corinne Vella

Sep 12th 2008, 09:13

John Borg: My arguments are not 'based on sympathy and little else' but on the evidence you yourself describe. It is one thing to theorise about what should happen. It is quite another to deal with things as they are.

You say "some cases are genuine and merit protection and care. Most are staged and merit nothing more than deportation." Here's a test case for your theory: if the case in this news report is 'staged', how and where should the infants be deported?

Mar Dar

Sep 12th 2008, 02:03

@DCG
“What you don't realise is that thousands of well-educated Maltese from non-working-class backgrounds have been forced to live this way for decades. It's very unpleasant, but one becomes accustomed to it eventually.”
Your comment above clearly contradicts all your other accusing comments. Its funny how you condone anyone who is against the illegal immigrants when you yourself discriminate between well-educated Maltese from non-working-class backgrounds and a normal maybe not so educated Maltese from a working class.
Anyway you should know better than me that you can find a PASTAZ anywhere even if he is a well-educated Maltese from non-working-class backgrounds so I will end it here :)

Mar Dar

Sep 12th 2008, 01:41

........ Thirdly keep in mind also that these persons are working without a permit for sure no matter what ETC or others state and sponging it off me at the same time. I have always duly worked, declared all my earnings and paid all my bills and never expected any supper on a plate from the government. So please don’t try to put me in a category which I don’t fall in.
The difference between you and me Daphne dear is that although I am from the south and not from Sliema, I don’t hate going anywhere in Malta and Gozo and it doesn’t effect me being around people from different maltese villages. I do though dislike individuals who think they are any better or different than me just because they happen to come from another ‘town’. I was always happy living in Birzebugia unfortunately I am not anymore. Maybe I should come and live in Sliema, be an addition to your alien culture and make you uncomfortable so that you know what it feels like. I just wonder how you would react if they opened an open centre in Sliema !!!

Mar Dar

Sep 12th 2008, 01:35

@DCG
Firstly if they are walking outside a detention centre doesn’t mean that they are not illegal immigrants but it means that they have elapsed their stay in the centre and moved on to an open centre and I am sure that all of these arrivals are illegal immigrants otherwise they would have passports and visit our country on holiday and stay at a hotel and leave when their holiday is over and not living in the centers.
Secondly do you think I am scared to say that I dislike coloured people if I really did. Well you are totally wrong, I have coloured, Indian, Asian and Arab friends and if you read my earlier comments you would see that I am against all illegal immigrants entering my country no matter what race or culture. I am uncomfortable with illegal immigrants that are in my village imposing themselves and their culture upon me. Remember these are not EU citizens glorified with freedom of movement. These are ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS entering my country ILLEGALLY and burdening all of us. That is the whole issue and nothing else......

Michael A. Vella

Sep 12th 2008, 01:34

@ Denis Catania: "I have said in the past to arrest the parents, who put their kids in danger, this is just to deter anyone else from making this dangerous crossing with kids."

Yes, that would be just dandy.

Get real, Denis. Bone up on the background to this situation.

Michael A. Vella

Sep 12th 2008, 01:30

@ Michele Dalli "John Borg I commend you on your comments to Corinne Vella. They are very well put and I hope that this will make her and the other 'do-gooders' out there think again before attacking their fellow Maltese citizens like you and me..."

Oh, I see. So that is how it works, John Borg, Marisa Darmanin, Michelle Dalli and others sharing their views express opinions; Corinne Vella and others expressing viewpoints similar to hers 'attack'.

Now, what was it that someone had said about people having a 'siege mentality'?

Geir Nilsen

Sep 12th 2008, 01:24

Daphne: "Meanwhile, you cannot seriously expect to be granted the privileges of somebody with an EU passport when you haven't got one."

Oh, so how come I don't need to show my passport at Luqa Airport or Gardermoen Airport but Gary Neville has to coming from or to Manchester Airport (hint: Schengen)?

And you are supposed to be Malta's leading columnist (did my research unlike you)?

Michael A. Vella

Sep 12th 2008, 01:19

@ John Borg: " Would you place the lives of your kids in such danger, knowing clearly that the perils of such a crossing are suicidal? "

The above question should in fairness reflect grim realities and so should go on to read "...when you know that by your failing to do so your kids would face a life time of abuse, slavery, and an early death?"

and what would YOUR answer then be, JB?

Michael A. Vella

Sep 12th 2008, 01:13

@ John Borg: " I counted no fewer than 165 "refugees" sitting idle passing the time. This was in an area of about 300 sq mtrs, let alone if I took a headcount of the whole area."

This is what distinguishes these people from a good many of the locals. The former congregate there in the hope of being able to earn an honest crust, the latter congregate at their local DSS to rake off somebody else's hard earned honest crust.

Michael A. Vella

Sep 12th 2008, 01:02

@ I M Dingli: "If you think you are putting together some kind of a prank by calling me ‘U. R. Dingli’ ha ha ha ha …… I laughed my guts out!! That was really funny."

I love it, I love it. That is what is so great about all you guys, sitting there for (let's say) 14 months, writing about INVASIONS of ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS and 'working to save OUR COUNTRY' and generally busying about in your crisis centres - your unsinkable sense of humour.

Michael A. Vella

Sep 12th 2008, 00:42

@ Ray Sammut: "No. You missed the point."

...and the point that I missed was??

Michael A. Vella

Sep 12th 2008, 00:40

@ I M Dingli: "As to you, can we hear your constructive comments which you so loudly pamper about, please?"

Since you state that I have been 'pampering' my constructive comments 'loudly', the hearing difficulty seems to be at your end.

Or perhaps you might care to explain how one sets about 'pampering comments loudly' - just in case I may have been doing it all wrong.

Geir Nilsen

Sep 12th 2008, 00:24

Denis Catania: I completely agree with everything you say. I've written much of the same, but have been censored like many times before. The politically correct are the ones who don't care. I think it says it all when people like you who don't even live in Malta anymore, cares a lot more about what happens to Malta than the ones actually living here and will be facing the consequenses.

Corinne is suggesting that the ones opposed to the mass-immigration are racists, xenophopics and afraid of losing their jobs. That is absolute nonsense. For starters, the ones that are commenting here are on average a lot more resourceful than the average Maltese. John Borg, Isobel Mcgonigle and I.M. Dingli will never compete with a Somali for the same job. The ones with good jobs, a good education and money are the ones that have the least to fear. House-cleaning for 4 Euros/hour in 10 years time? Quite realistic. The poor ones with no or little education however, oh they have it coming. I find it a paradox that I, as a Norwegian, seem to care more about what happens to Malta than a lot of Maltese themselves do.

Emma Xerri

Sep 12th 2008, 00:20

@Daphne Caruana Galizia. I used to think that you were an intelligent woman. Having read your articles on this subject, I think different, You should be out there defending our little island, especially you who have to bequeath it to your children. The Somali so called 'immigrants' come in very docile at first and slowly but surely they will soon show their teeth. They are very well-versed with all the welfare laws of the Western democratic countries, which they have no objections to exploit to the hilt. Our objections to them are real and valid and despite what you say, are not based on colour of skin. The menace is cultural and ideological. They refuse to integrate even peacefully... they retain the 7th century mentality that scares the bejeepers out of western society... what with their honour killings and FGM. If this is racism, then so be it, but I call it cultural discrimination... there's against ours... they want to take over and push us out, like they are doing in Europe and elsewhere. Why even the Pope said we should not fall prey to moral relativisim!

Geir Nilsen

Sep 11th 2008, 23:42

Daphne Caruana Galizia: I have written three comments, but they are being censored for some reason (some democracy and free speech you got here). So Daphne, you honestly believe that, as a Maltese, you know more about my rights as a EEC citizen than I do? You who are so clever, explain me why I have been able to live and work in Malta for three years? How come I was able to live and work five years in Britain without a work-permit? Because Norway are not EU. And if you read what I pasted into the comment, it says EVEN EU citizens have to pay more than Maltese, so your pathetic argument doesn't hold water. Finish secondary school before you start making fun of me. Everybody are laughing AT you now, not with you. I even wrote that my wife is Finnish (EU), so even if EEC didn't qualify, we would put the house in her name. But again, it doesn't matter, because EU citizens still have to pay more than the Maltese. Beg for Norway to join EU? You know what the second richest country in the world is? Guess.

Corinne Vella

Sep 11th 2008, 23:05

Isobel McGonigle: The message you transmit is ambiguous: is it that you believe all black people are benefit cheats or that you believe all benefit cheats are black? Either way, its relevance to the story above eludes me.

Daphne Caruana Galizia

Sep 11th 2008, 22:24

@Joseph Borg: You suggest that infants are being placed in the boats purely to attract sympathy. But of course! They're no better than animals, aren't they? They sacrifice their own children. What do you expect from an African? They're not Maltese.

@Joseph Vassallo: The more obvious explanation, and therefore probably the correct one, is that the woman who died was en route to meet her husband who is in Europe already. That's the way it works: the man goes first to prepare the way and the wife and children follow later. Maltese emigrants followed the same system in the past. It speaks volumes about your priorities that your first instinct is to DNA test the men on the boat so that they can't get away with 'lying' about their paternity. What sort of man would watch his wife die and his children flounder in the water with no emotion, just to hoodwink the Maltese government? My own reaction, based on the likelihood that this woman was trying to join her husband, is "Oh my God, now how on earth is he going to be traced and told that his wife is dead and his children are in a Maltese orphanage?"

I. M. Dingli

Sep 11th 2008, 21:58

Corinne Vella I believe that John Borg was a bit over enthusiastic when he passed that comment about you so let’s leave that as is (my opinion at least).

With regards to the story at hand, please note that you are at fault regards one particular point, just for the sake of saying things as they are, or better as they have been reported.

The two infants are not orphaned; the article doesn’t mention that the dead lady was their mother (but just believed to be) so we better stick to the facts before jumping to conclusions. This is something you thought me so I would appreciate if you follow your same advice. I do believe that if it was their mother, The Times would have updated the story as they do normally.

Brian Fenech

Sep 11th 2008, 21:34

@Corrine Vella, I think you should try to listen more rather then talk, you are not listening and understanding of what the other posters are trying to tell you or explain to you.

This is not about kids who die between crossings, this is showing how much they don't care. Now tell me, would you even try to cross hundreds of miles to another country with your young infants? Don't you think that this is madness and irresponsible! Now if you tell me that they desperate, I tell you, why did they had kids the first place if they were in so much poverty!

Furthermore please, don't post a comment telling me, I do not need to teach you how to listen or something along these lines, because its getting boring now, the whole point here is that Malta is angry, it can't take anymore and this is a big full stop.

Brian Fenech

Joseph Vassallo

Sep 11th 2008, 20:59

@Joseph Vassallo - And your point is? That Africans practice female circumcision to ensure that women don't travel without their menfolk? T(hey mutilate their genitals not amputate their legs you know)That women who really love their children would leave them behind in a war-torn or drought ridden country instead of trying to take them somewhere where they hope for better prospects? And what if you were right (highly unlikely)and the mothers dont give a fig for their children's wellbeing and chuck them on a dinghy to Malta on a whim? Does the child have to suffer for his parents' perceived failing?The lack off compassion for two orphaned children cannot be justified in any way, so please dont try ...

Denis Catania

Sep 11th 2008, 20:37

@Joseph Vassallo: Well said, I asked that a few weeks ago, I'm not sure if it was published. I asked why most of the dead are woman. Are they being thrown over board by the man. Which would make this murder. If this is the case we might have a few murderers on our hands. It's seems it's always woman and children that are dying.

Claire Bonello

Sep 11th 2008, 20:22

@ John Borg -What you fail to realise is that government is not acting capriciously or because of some covert agenda to become the immigrant capital of the world. The Maltese government (and all other countries/the EU/international organizations) cannot suddenly decide not to save people at sea or not to process immigrants because that would be primarily inhumane, plus (if that isn't of primary importance) it would mean reneging on our international treaty obligations. When a country (any country reneges on international obligations there are reactions - such as other countries reneging on their obligations (such as funnelling funds our way) in the first country's regard. Illegal immigration is an international phenomenon which is incredibly hard to control. The Americans haven't managed to control it. There isn't much chance of it being controlled in the EU (which s not as omnipotent as you might think)
In any case, you might have some sympathy for two orphaned babies - even if you consider them to be a terrible drain on your taxes. There wasn't even a murmur about Clyde Puli attending the Olympics for 16 days (sponsored by your taxes)

Joseph Vassallo

Sep 11th 2008, 19:25

I am not convinced that an African woman would be travelling (with two infants under a year old) without her husband. Will the authorities conduct investigations (DNA tests id necessary) to ascertain that one of the men is not the father of these children? In his shoes, I would distance myself from the infants so they will be treated as orphans and have a better start outside of the detention centre.

I am also curious as to why so many women die before they arrive here. Are all steps being taken to ascertain that there is no foul play during the voyage? After all, it is well known that women and children are mere chattel belonging to their husband in most of Africa.

According to Unicef, more than 2 million girls/women have their genitals mutilated to ensure their subordinance,dependence and loyalty to their man.

Denis Catania

Sep 11th 2008, 17:23

@Corrine Vella: Do you really think we don't care for these kids. Off course we do. It's the ones who condone such dangerous croosings, are the ones who don't care. No one said ,not to care for these kids. I have said in the past to arrest the parents, who put their kids in danger, this is just to deter anyone else from making this dangerous crossing with kids. These kids have no voice, Keep them in Libya and apply for migration from Libya. I know it's a lot easier said, than done. but it's sure the safest way. Which all legtimate countries, put the welfare of a child first.

Corinne Vella

Sep 11th 2008, 17:20

John Borg: "Unfortunately, only racist or xenophobic remarks seem to merit response from people like Corinne Vella!"

Put aside the factual error inherent in that statement and take a closer look at what you have actually said: you define the comments made here by Michelle Dali, Raymond Sammut , Ivan Magro Dingli, Marisa Darmanin, Isobel McGonigle and Geir Nilsen as racist or xenophobic.

Now take a look at the context in which those comments were made.

The news story above is about two infants who were orphaned at sea and hospitalised after being rescued and yet most of the comments here bypass that matter altogether. I find that not only strange, but shocking. Why does my saying so make you feel the need to justify your 'right to an opinion and to our country'?

isobel mcgonigle

Sep 11th 2008, 17:15

@ Corinne Vella.
Read nigerian in court after hal far incident.
Hope he was smartly dressed when he tried to scam his social security payment.
Got the message yet?
I doubt it.

Daphne Caruana Galizia

Sep 11th 2008, 17:06

@Marisa Darmanin: You and others are upset by the 'branded T-shirts' worn by African immigrants (who, incidentally, are not 'illegal immigrants' if they are walking around outside a detention camp). You seem unaware that there is a small number of volunteers who collect, sort and distribute clothes which have been donated. I know this for a fact because I spent the best part of last winter collecting and sorting clothes, shoes and bedding on behalf of an acquaintance who volunteers. Because I tend to know people who buy good clothes, it follows that those are the kinds of clothes I collected. We were also given a great deal of shocking rubbish that went straight into the bin with an expression of disgust that anyone could have held onto such a thing in their cupboards, still less thought it fit for even a desperate have-not to wear. Many of the bicycles, too, are donated, and here I appeal to all those with an unused bike in the garage to drive it to the Marsa Open Centre and help change somebody's daily ordeal. Do the same when you buy a new mobile phone, and drop off the old one.

Daphne Caruana Galizia

Sep 11th 2008, 16:57

@Marisa Darmanin: Just come right out with it, why don't you? They make you nervous because they're black. You claim that it's because they're here illegally. But would you feel any less nervous if their position were legal? Somehow, I don't think so. You seem annoyed because they appear to be earning money with which to buy bicycles and clothes. Perhaps you'd rather they didn't work and sponged off you instead. You see, that's the difference between somebody coming from a continent where survival is entirely dependent on the self, and somebody - a Maltese person, for instance - who thinks that the state owes him a living. A Somali fully expects to work hard for his supper. A Maltese expects supper on a plate minghand il-gvern. As for your claim that you feel uncomfortable in your own village, please note that thousands of Maltese feel very uncomfortable among otherMaltese who aren't from the same kind of background. I've always hated going to Birzebbugia, but it's not because of the blacks. I grew up in Sliema, but to me it's just an alien culture now, full of people from the villages - among which the one that you live in.

Daphne Caruana Galizia

Sep 11th 2008, 16:49

@Joseph Schembri: I understand perfectly your unwillingness to live in the midst of an alien culture. What you don't realise is that thousands of well-educated Maltese from non-working-class backgrounds have been forced to live this way for decades. It's very unpleasant, but one becomes accustomed to it eventually.

Michael A. vella

Sep 11th 2008, 16:47

@John Borg: "...but they have no future here. "

Why?

Daphne Caruana Galizia

Sep 11th 2008, 16:46

@Denis Catania: While protesting in Washington, or wherever it is you intend to demonstrate against illegal immigration to Malta, do be sure to put up a very large billboard with a map of Europe, the Mediterranean Sea clearly marked as such, and a large arrow pointed to Malta, highlighted in fluorescent pink. Another billboard explaining in one drive-past line what Malta is would be very useful too. Otherwise, those 20,000 driving past, to whom you intend to appeal, will think you're just another bunch of anti-abortionists. Few people in Washington know what Maltese is, or care.

Daphne Caruana Galizia

Sep 11th 2008, 16:43

@Isobel Mcgonigle: the British benefits system is notoriously easy to defraud, largely as a result of the British resistance to identity cards. Ours, on the other hand, is notoriously stringent, except - apparently - where Maltese single mothers who are not really single are concerned.

John Borg

Sep 11th 2008, 16:42

@Corinne Vella: I never implied that I am teaching you to think before you speak. What you think is your business, but what you preach, for the benefit of "our country" is my business too. The fact that people are drowning is horrendous and heart breaking, but you are simply basing your arguments on sympathy and little else. The kids are being put on the boats purposely, to get media attention. Would you place the lives of your kids in such danger, knowing clearly that the perils of such a crossing are suicidal? They left from Libya remember, not from war torn Sudan. They had refuge in Libya, but the vast majority of these people are gambling with their lives in search of economic gain and not to escape the horrors of war. If the crossings were really "ad-hoc", the numbers would be more balanced between men, women and children, but no, the kids are thrown in to make it look real, as are the pregnant women. Some cases are genuine and merit protection and care. Most are staged and merit nothing more than deportation.

Daphne Caruana Galizia

Sep 11th 2008, 16:41

@Raymond Sammut: Try to keep up, why don't you? Romania joined the European Union in January last year. A Romanian has every bit as much right to be here as you do. It's called freedom of movement.

Daphne Caruana Galizia

Sep 11th 2008, 16:39

Oh dear, where to begin? With Geir Nilsen, I think.: the fact that you are not an EU citizen is your problem, not Malta's. You have a solution - next time Norway holds a referendum on the subject of EU membership, work for the Yes vote and hope that you get there. Meanwhile, you cannot seriously expect to be granted the privileges of somebody with an EU passport when you haven't got one. Your suggestion that belonging to the EEC is no different to belonging to the EU is disingenuous. Of course it is different, and that's why you are not treated like an Italian or even a Romanian in Malta,. A Romanian has more rights in Malta than a Norwegian does because one has an EU passport and the other, however PhD-ed and high-earning, does not.

John Borg

Sep 11th 2008, 16:22

@Michelle Dali: Unfortunately, only racist or xenophobic remarks seem to merit response from people like Corinne Vella! It is clearly evident that when we go overboard whilst expressing our opinions, we are only providing cheap fuel to keep these peoples' bonfires burning. When faced with real arguments, they remain silent. I am in now way trying to belittle her or people who have the same opinion, but we too have a right to not only our opinion, but to our country. This morning I drove through the Marsa power station area at 10.30 am. Near the BOV branch and the roundabouts and kerb side, I counted no fewer than 165 "refugees" sitting idle passing the time. This was in an area of about 300 sq mtrs, let alone if I took a headcount of the whole area. It has become a ghetto. I do pity them, but they have no future here. What will happen when they get really desperate living in this dead end street? Crime, gangs, protests etc. It will come sooner than later. Our protests have to be put forward intelligently and firmly. Our politicians have to be made aware that we have had enough.

Raymond Sammut

Sep 11th 2008, 16:14

@ Michael A. Vella

No. You missed the point.

Corinne Vella

Sep 11th 2008, 16:07

Michelle Dalli: I do not need John Borg to teach me to think before I speak. My opinions are not knee jerk reactions. They are considered and are based on facts.

Like you, I have grave concerns about the country we live in - it is a one in which people feel threated by infants and in which news of their rescue and hospitalisation is not greeted with sympathy and compassion but with horror and outrage. I don't imagine that is the self-identity you subscribe to and wish to protect. So you see, we have rather much more in common than you might think.

Michael A. Vella

Sep 11th 2008, 14:20

@Raymond Sammut: No, you have completely missed the point. On the one hand you stated that 'illegal immigration is a crime' on the other hand you moved a solution to the effect that '.... should put these people on a ship and send them to some other country'.

The latter course of action would still be, as you chose to put it, 'a crime'; what you proposed is the substitution of a number of small boats with a big one and also changes in the point of destination. And that suggestion puts you on a par with the organisers of these boat trips and also in favour of 'illegal immigration'.

I. M. Dingli

Sep 11th 2008, 13:51

@ Michael A. Vella

If you think you are putting together some kind of a prank by calling me ‘U. R. Dingli’ ha ha ha ha …… I laughed my guts out!! That was really funny.

Anyway, I have put forward my opinion many times on these comment boards for the past (let’s say) 14 months. If you want to know my opinion just have a look at the various comments I have shared for everyone to see. It is not my problem if you deem them unfruitful when you boil them down, even though I always show my exact opinion straight and plain.

All the posts coming from your excellency, which I have seen on this particular comments board always start with a quote / unquote of another person’s opinion and you just try to ridicule that person’s opinion or question or whatever leading me to believe that you don’t have an opinion of your own. That was the simple reason why I put a straight forward question in your regards but as always you just opted to chicken out.

As to you, can we hear your constructive comments which you so loudly pamper about, please?

Mar Dar

Sep 11th 2008, 12:48

@Michael A. Vella
"The subsistence allowance paid to each individual is unlikely to finance the purchase of a 'branded t-shirt', let alone bikes and cars."
OK than where are they getting the money from ???? if you havent seen them around in cars and on bikes dont comment because I see them daily and some bikes have also been installed with a small motor.
"Is it not more likely that the individuals concerned have taken on a job, are earning money, have ceased to depend on state assistance, and so are actually paying taxes to the benefit of the population as a whole"
Whom are you trying to kid here as if they all work legally or through ETC. At Marsa and Hal Far where I happen to pass every morning for work they are picked up by maltese plasterers and builders etc and I am sure they work illegally.

Raymond Sammut

Sep 11th 2008, 10:58

@ Michael A. Vella

You say: Simple, it is just like you [myself] said - "Illegal immigration is a crime on a large scale.."

I am very glad that you agree. I have never been able to get Corinne Vella to agree. That’s why she shunned my question, and you felt you had to come and answer it on her behalf, and so you did.

I now like to ask you to come and join us, and speak out against illegal immigration which is a crime on a large scale.

R. Agius

Sep 11th 2008, 10:34

Why hasn't anybody expressed condolence yet? All of us are concerned about the negative impacts of illegal immigrants on our country and rightly so. But no one expressed their grief for the two little infants who are now motherless.

Brian Fenech

Sep 11th 2008, 09:28

@dvella my petition has an anonymous option only for the public not to see the name, however, when I log in, I can view the names of the anonymous persons, therefore, there is no need to throw your dummy and have a hissy fit because you saw couple of anonymous persons. I repeat, anonymous is only for the public view, the petition will go in full names, this is because there is an option to check the box to keep your name anonymous from other viewers

In regards to comments, yes I agree there are some nasty ones and as Denis brought my attention to it , I promise that these will be cleaned out, so don't worry.



Brian Fenech

Geir Nilsen

Sep 11th 2008, 09:14

@Michael A. Vella

Can you answer my questions first?

Michelle Dali

Sep 11th 2008, 09:08

John Borg I commend you on your comments to Corinne Vella. They are very well put and I hope that this will make her and the other 'do-gooders' out there think again before attacking their fellow Maltese citizens like you and me, who have grave concerns for our beautiful but unfortunately very vulnerable country.

Michael A. Vella

Sep 11th 2008, 01:32

@Denis Catania: " Our support is building. 20,000 cars a day.going to the midtown tunnel will see us" . Yes 20,000 cars going by, but how many will YOU be?

"Most will be slow moving traffic. " Now, I wonder WHY the drivers will slow down?

Michael A. Vella

Sep 11th 2008, 01:27

@ Raymond Sammut:

Quote from comment by Corinne Vella "Government provision of a ship to ferry people across the Mediterranean is legally impossible."

R. S. You asked CV "Why?"

Simple, it is just like you yourself said - "Illegal immigration is a crime on a large scale. ."

Michael A. Vella

Sep 11th 2008, 01:23

@ Raymond Sammut: "Illegal immigration is a crime on a large scale. It is here only because the Maltese government continues to fail in its obligation towards its own people."

Like??

Michael A. Vella

Sep 11th 2008, 01:18

@ U. R. Dingli: "Where do you stand in all this because I haven't yet figured out your opinion on the matter? You seem to focus on approving or disapproving the other commentators within this comments board rather than sharing with us you beliefs, concerns, approval."

Simple. I face realities and deal with them in a responsible manner. The persons bellyaching about ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS do not ; they just bang on and on without putting forward any constructive comment.

Marian Tabone

Sep 11th 2008, 01:17

No mother, no matter the gain, would risk the life of her children unless the danger of that risk was the lesser of two. She must have been so afraid. The migration is not the main issue to be addressed, but the reason behind that migration. Obviously we cannot continue to accomodate, no matter how big our hearts are, Malta is just too small.
But we have voices... Use them!!

Michael A. Vella

Sep 11th 2008, 01:08

@ Geir Nielsen: "...Do you think it is ok that we, who pay 10 times more in tax (yes, also earning 10 times more) and are a MASSIVE income for you, don't get what you get? It does not happen in Scandinavia or Britain (lived there 5 years)."

So, I take it, your presence here in Malta is to do us a favour?

Michael A. Vella

Sep 11th 2008, 00:59

@Marisa Darmanin: "... how they dress (in particular to the branded t-shirts) or the mobiles they carry and the mountain bikes they own together with the cars they drive. " Now, Marisa, what is so threatening about that? And how do you figure that it is your taxes that are buying all that stuff. The subsistence allowance paid to each individual is unlikely to finance the purchase of a 'branded t-shirt', let alone bikes and cars.

Is it not more likely that the individuals concerned have taken on a job, are earning money, have ceased to depend on state assistance, and so are actually paying taxes to the benefit of the population as a whole - including the many who take unemployment as their lifetime career and who are the real spongers on taxpayers money.

I. M. Dingli

Sep 10th 2008, 23:51

OK Corinne Vella, noted.

dvella

Sep 10th 2008, 22:19

Mr Spiteri - any kinds of comments with cuss words, racism, belittling other people deserve all the discredit they can get. Im all for getting our voice heard but there are ways and means....

Corinne Vella

Sep 10th 2008, 22:07

Ivan Magro Dingli: If information is what you need, then address your questions to the appropriate official source. The ETC should be able to answer your questions about work permits.

Corinne Vella

Sep 10th 2008, 22:06

Isobel Mcgonigle: I'm not sure I follow your argument. Is your concern an increase in the number of immigrants or the number of benefit cheats? Either way, the woman in this story has no possibility of fitting into either category any more than her surviving infant children do.

Mar Dar

Sep 10th 2008, 22:06

@Corrine Vella
Ok Let me explain it better. Dont you realise that these so called 'msieken' are already our equal in my country at my expense and at the expense of other maltese citizens and dont forget they came here ILLEGALLY. they dont pay taxes, water or electricity bills. I invite you to read my other comments and than maybe you will understand how I am living as it is useless repeating here what I see in Birzebugia. Then again if you dont I wont even bother answering any of your comments but for sure you cannot judge me for how I feel, what my worries are, what I fear for my children and most of all how angry I am at the Government, EU, UN etc as no one takes any notice of us Maltese citizens. Government definately has not got an atom of guts to take a stand on this issue.

http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20080905/local/migrants-arrive-in-gozo
http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20080825/local/man-charged-with-rape/

Raymond Sammut

Sep 10th 2008, 22:00

@ d vella

Please allow me to quote you on this:

" ... comments are degrading with curse words throughout it ... "

By "it" I understand the petition. My comment in this petition is perfectly formal, as most others are.

In regard to "eastern europeans" and other issues, everyone is free to initiate petitions directed at these issues if they feel strongly enough to do so.

I agree with Mr Catania that anonymous entries do not count, and if possible should be removed, or alternatively, a provision can be set to prevent them from being entered in the first place.

However, as I understand, the author can also reserve the right not to make the petitioner's name available to public viewing. The entry would still be valid so long as the author has the necessary details of the petitioner.

d vella

Sep 10th 2008, 21:32

mr sammut ... apart from the anon signatures i cant see where i have discredited the others....

while we are at it, why dont we get another petition for all the eastern europeans that come here? a visit to 'gentlemen's' clubs, sliema or paceville/ st julians area will show you that they are in malta too....maybe they blend in a bit more than africans but they are still here illegally.

What about all the people that marry eastern europeans/africans for money? who in turn get everyone and their one here in this country... Are we going to go after those too?

ps Mr Catania - the first page alone has 8 anon signatures....

Denis Catania

Sep 10th 2008, 20:54

@dvella: My petition Save Malta Against Illegal Immigrants, doesn't have a comment option, because of the reason you mentioned. If you go back you, you will see that. I will not put up with degrading comments. So I didn't give that option. With due respect for the other petition, most comments were clean, but a few are degrading.I spoke to the other petitioner about your concern, a few days ago, and he ageed, he will clean up his petition. You are right degrading comment is no excuse for frustrations. As far as the anonymous, a quick search I found 1 out of 430, I mght of missed a few. Obvously anonymous signature will hold no value.
Thank You for your concern. Denis Catania

isobel mcgonigle

Sep 10th 2008, 20:39

@Corrine Vella.
Yes I agree,the ilegal immigrants were immaculately dressed as they turned up in their B.M.Ws,Mercedes,to pick up their weekly social security handouts.
I should know, for the place I worked in the U.K (10 hours a day 6 days a week) overlooked the local benefits office.
Well Corrine Vella the substance of my comment is as I said to Mr Vella ,see if you still have the illegals on a pedestal in a few years time .
You dont have a clue what is on the horizon for Malta if the illegal immigrants continue to come at the present rate.
Remember there is strength in numbers and their numbers are increasing every day.

Raymond Sammut

Sep 10th 2008, 20:18

@ dvella

There is no need to discredit those who have signed either or both of these two petitions. Most views that have been expressed thus far are perfectly in order. It is true that some require moderation or deletion altogether. I have contacted the author directly in regard to this issue.

In my view, both petitions have been set up by the respective author for a just cause. They have only been active for the past few days. It is fair enough if you do not wish to sign.

dvella

Sep 10th 2008, 19:32

Mr Catania, I refuse to sign a petition where some names are marked as anoymous, comments are degrading with curse words throughout it - I understand the frustrations but this is not a reason to stoop down so low.

If you are really going to present that petition, I suggest you spell check it and **** it before printing it out.

Stephen Farrugia

Sep 10th 2008, 19:31

I never said to they should be transfered to Europe. I could never agree to that. They should be transfered by ship to another African country. Immigration permits are not needed.

It was Gaddaffi that asked the Africans to come to Libya because he changed his position of being a leader of all Arabs, to a leader of all Africa. Now he should keep them and be their leader as he always wished.

John Borg

Sep 10th 2008, 18:53

@Corrine Vella: Corrine, i empithise with you, but no more than that. From the human side, my heart bleeds, but why is this awesome burden being thrust upon the smallest nation in the EU? It is not only geographic, as Lampeduse, a small iland like us have the luxury of dumping them onto mainland Italy. We are forced to carry the burden on our own! We are not one of the colonial powers who have raped Africa in the past. On the contrary, we have always been under siege to invaders, as we are now. You know as well as I that this cannot go on. This tiny nation must protect it's identity, otherwise we will have to make drastic changes to our culture and I cannot accept anyone forcing us to do so! We are a generous nation and no we are not racist, but we are being forced to become racists due to the human instinct of self preservation, nothing more. Our identity is what it is and we cannot be expected to change it in order to assimilate. Our visitors won't assimilate, so where do we go from here? Tell me.

I. M. Dingli

Sep 10th 2008, 18:17

@ Corinne Vella

There is a very simple answer to your question; basically this is the only means of two way communication with you. I'm not asking for your contact info or anything but since the subject developed in that direction (ok, I know out of subject) I raised the question. I appreciate your reply, I’ll wait for a more suitable story headline.

Raymond Sammut

Sep 10th 2008, 18:10

@ Corinne Vella

"Providing a ferry service is not legal because there is no provision for legal immigration."

Why there is no provision for legal immigration?

Charles Micallef

Sep 10th 2008, 17:35

What would the local press print, if all of a sudden the illegal imigrants stop coming to Malta, and the ones at the detention centre are sent to an other destination, I do not know if anyone notices that these heartbreaking stories along with the law reports must account for a high % of all the local press print!

Corinne Vella

Sep 10th 2008, 17:26

Marisa Darmanin: My question was genuine and not intended to be patronising. I wondered why you feel threatened by the presence of immigrants and yet the only characteristic you noted in both your comments is the fact that they have possessions. In what way is having possessions a threat? In any case, the children who feature in the news story above have none of the possessions you mention and have now also been deprived of their mother.

Your assumption about me is incorrect. I do know what it feels like to be uncomfortable in the place where I live and yes, I do know what it feels like to appear different from everyone else on the same bus. That is how I sometimes feel among people who are Maltese. It is not how I always feel among people who are not.

Corinne Vella

Sep 10th 2008, 17:10

Ivan Magro Dingli: I'm not an expert on the subject, but I do know that work permits are not issued automatically. Certain conditions would have to be met first. Then again, why discuss work permits when the news story is orphaned infants rescued at sea? Please note that this is not a petty comment. It is an observation that the comments-board here is being exploited for reasons other than the discussion of the related news story.

Denis Catania

Sep 10th 2008, 17:03

This is a man/woman made tragic, made by the people calling them to leave safe Libya. Shame on all of you, condoning these voyages. We will expose you and the other 26EU countries who turned their back on the Maltese and these poor people. The government claims my demonstration will hurt tourism in Malta. My demonstration will expose the truth about the big boys of Europe. Malta was never meant to be a prison for Africans for the Anglos of Europe. EU take them(according to burden sharing agreements) of our hands or you will be exposed. Starting in less than 2 weeks. Our support is building. 20,000 cars a day.going to the midtown tunnel will see us.Most will be slow moving traffic. We have 2 petitions going . http://www.gopetition.com/online/21497.html
http://www.gopetition.com/online/21435.html

Corinne Vella

Sep 10th 2008, 17:02

Geir Nilsen: My earlier comment addressed to you was a statement of facts as they are now and not an opinion about how things should be.

Given your experience with the courts here, it's clear that you feel that that treatment you received was unfair and I couldn't agree more. Equally, I think you would agree that that sort of behaviour is deplorable not because you are Scandinavian, but because you are human.

As to the rest of your comments about unfair taxation and housing rules, it appears that your objection is principally that you are subject to differing conditions to those enjoyed by the Maltese. There's much to be said about that, but why do so here when the news story is the death of a mother at sea and the rescue of her infant children?

Shaun Camilleri

Sep 10th 2008, 16:59

Marissa Darmanin I agree with you however do you think politicians or the Un people care about us? Of course not.

According to international law these people if they are truly refugees should seek refuge in the country nearest their own. I never asked them to cross in little boats. All we do is pay taxes which a great deal of goes to support illigal immigrants.

If you throw a cigarette butt you get fined. We are being pushed about and becoming second, third class citizens in our own country. In the pecking order we the average Joe are even to make way to those who invade us.

Corinne Vella

Sep 10th 2008, 16:42

Raymond Sammut: Providing rescue services is obligatory. Providing a ferry service is not legal because there is no provision for legal immigration. This is not an opinion. It is a statement of fact.

Mar Dar

Sep 10th 2008, 16:37

@Corinne Vella
I do not fear anyone believe me I am more than capable of taking care of myself. I fear though for my children and you cannot try and patronise me when you dont know what its like to go on a bus or go around your village and all you see is illegal immigrants. I mentioned the cars mobiles etc as it is surprising that these persons can afford all these 'luxuries' when they should be coming from a war torn country, or were persecuted and stripped of all their belongings. Funnily enough they even afford to buy cars now and pay insurance and licences, surely they are working instead some Maltese person or else where are they getting the money from. Do you know what it feels like to feel uncomfortable in your own village. I am sure that you dont as otherwise you wouldnt comment as you do. This is what has become our way of living - UNCOMFORTABLE. I am openly against any foreigner from anywhere around the world coming to my country illegaly and I am made to carry the burden. Does this make me a racist?

I. M. Dingli

Sep 10th 2008, 16:34

@ E. Gatt

So I’m assuming that we are both on the same line of thought since we both have no problems whatsoever with the regular migrants having a work permit in hand.

As to the scenario which you have described, obviously the driver is at fault but unfortunately it seems they cannot be controlled. How many times did you end up stuck behind a truck because he didn’t have the decency to stay on the left rather than in the middle of the road in order to let the traffic by? They are hostile to fellow Maltese citizens so what do you expect from them when it comes to immigrants.


@ Corinne Vella

I just want to ask you a couple of questions which I kind of raised to myself, please do not embark on the usual petty talks (me included), ok? I think you are more informed on the subject than I am ….. Do the residents within the open centres by default have a work permit or not? If not can they apply for one?

Geir Nilsen

Sep 10th 2008, 16:32

@ Corinne Vella

So you think it is ok to reward the people who enter Malta illegally? And punish EU citizens who come to your country legally and make you wealthy? If you decided to move to Norway, you would have exactly the same rights as me. We would not try to milk you. I don't feel sorry for myself, because I am in a very fortunate position compared to most people, but I am nonetheless provoked by they way I am treated here.

Another example: I was punched in the face by a Maltese (unprovoked). I decided to write down the number of his car instead of beating him up (I was much bigger than him and was a power-lifter), went to St. Luke's to get an x-ray (paying 50 liri because I am a foreigner), and took him to court. I had to swear on the bible (I am not a catholic, and magistrate tried to humiliate me, even though I explained). They could have proceeded in English, but was in Maltese only. He got a 20 Euros fine despite x-ray and video evidence. The sun-glasses he broke when punching cost more than 200 Euros.

Go figure.

Raymond Sammut

Sep 10th 2008, 16:17

@ Corinne Vella

"Government provision of a ship to ferry people across the Mediterranean is legally impossible."

Why?

Raymond Sammut

Sep 10th 2008, 16:13

@ Michael A. Vella

"The trouble with RS, and all of his ilk, is that they have no yet cottoned on to the realities involved."

Quite the contrary Mr. Vella. You failed to answer a straight forward and logical question because of the "realities involved" which you, for whatever reason, do not want to acknowledge.

And no. Illegal immigration is not here to stay. The Maltese people must never be subdued into believing and accepting such a statement. Illegal immigration is a crime on a large scale. It is here only because the Maltese government continues to fail in its obligation towards its own people.

Corinne Vella

Sep 10th 2008, 15:33

Geir Nilsen: People of African origin who arrive in Malta under the same conditions as you and your wife did would be subject to more conditions, rather than fewer. (I am assuming you are from an EU country). The ones who arrive on boats and have no employment on arrival will not have the means to buy a house, with or without a swimming pool.

Isobel McGonigle: I have read Michael A. Vella's comment too. What he says is that there is a marked contrast between the appearance and behaviour of immigrants and the impression held by people who post negative comments on this site. Your reply ignores the substance of his comment.

E Gatt

Sep 10th 2008, 15:30

@ I. M. Dingli

No I do not defend the actions of anyone who is involved in drugs, be it Maltese, Dutch, English, Russian, Nigerian or from outer space.

But when these Nigerians were charged with the importation of drugs, the comments in this forum were all general comments about how these irregular immigrants are taking over our
country and the usual comments. But funnily enough, when a european or an eastern european is charged with the same charges (of importing drugs etc). these comments are not found. Why?

As regards the easterern europeans working here all has a valid working permit, the same applies to refugees who can work legally here in Malta. I have nothing against eastern europeans working in Malta, but I also have nothing against refugees or others who can work legally here. I have come across eastern europeans and even sub-saharan refugees working in Malta and I have no cause to complain against any of them. What I deplore is seeing a Maltese refuse truck driver kicking a dark-skinned worker in the middle of the street because he could not keep with the drivers' speeding by running after him throwing garbage bags in the truck.

Corinne Vella

Sep 10th 2008, 15:28

Marisa Darmanin: It's unclear what it is that you fear most about the presence of immigrants. Why do you mention branded clothes, mountain bikes, cars and mobile phones?

Raymond Sammut: Stephen Farrugia's comment about a ship sounds more like sarcarsm than sincerity, unless he is naive. Government provision of a ship to ferry people across the Mediterranean is legally impossible. Farrugia mentions people who care". They are unlikely to include those whose sole involvement is profit.

Corinne Vella

Sep 10th 2008, 15:21

It's interesting that whenever any story like this appears, the comments posted in reaction are largely devoid of compassion. They also lack all trace of irony in declaring 'Malta's suffering' in the face of a tragedy that is so clearly someone else's.

This is a story about the death of a woman and the bare survival of her two infant children, yet many of the comments here about the usual shock horror hysteria about 'them taking our jobs'

If any remark like this one is made, the next reaction is usually a barrage of nonsense about people who are 'in favour of illegal immigration', a useless and empty argument if ever there was one.

I. M. Dingli

Sep 10th 2008, 15:16

Mr. A. Vella

Where do you stand in all this because I haven't yet figured out your opinion on the matter? You seem to focus on approving or disapproving the other commentators within this comments board rather than sharing with us you beliefs, concerns, approval.

I'm asking not to criticise you but rather just to get a grasp of your opinion.

I. M. Dingli

Sep 10th 2008, 14:17

@ E. Gatt

Could it be that these East Europeans have a valid work permit and thus they pay taxes apart from renting apartments in the process, etc etc etc..... could it be that at least we are getting something back into our economy? If you want examples you should go at Mater Dei Hospital and see for yourself. I used to work with these gentlemen for the past 5 years and never had problems with them. There were also persons from South Africa & Iraq working there with valid work permits and again paying all taxes and had no problem with them too.

By the way, are you defending the actions of the four Nigerians who tried to smuggle drugs in our country by any chance?

Michael A. Vella

Sep 10th 2008, 13:28

@ P Debono: "Great, so now they're bringing their children with them too." PD you are talking about two infants, recovered half-dead from the open sea, and who had just lost their mother in the process. See you at holy Communion next Sunday??

"MALTA IS SMALL ENOUGH AS IT IS." Not as small as the mentality and generosity of some of the locals, it seems.

Michael A. Vella

Sep 10th 2008, 13:24

" The blood of these people are on the hands, of the Maltese that condone such dangerous voyages."

Oh, for goddness sake, Dennis. Have we not seen enough examples of warped resaoning in these Comment sections. Presumably, if the plane taking you to USA had dropped out of the sky, your blood with be on the hands of the US population. Sorry, I forget, you were actually 'needed' in USA, so that changes everything.

Geir Nilsen

Sep 10th 2008, 13:23

@ E Gatt

"Government websites ambiguosly state that it is possible 'to become eligible' to acquire Maltese citizenship by naturalisation after 5 years of legal residence in Malta. In practice applications are only given a favourable consideration to persons who were born in Malta,have resided there for more than 18 years (6 more than Switzerland[2]), have a Maltese parent, or based on humanitarian grounds."

So I did get my facts wrong. It was not 16 years, but 18. And that is only for consideration, so even worse. And note that an ILLEGAL Somali immigrant have a much greater chance of aquiring a Maltese citizenship than I do.

The beef I have with this is that these precautions are obviously not implemented because you purely want to limit the influx of people coming to the island, because if that was the case you would just ban foreigners completely from buying, or let a set number each year do so (at the same price/cost). But no, you let us do it, makes it much more expensive for us. So this is about milking me for as much money as possible.

Michael A. Vella

Sep 10th 2008, 13:19

@ Raymond Sammut: "Why are you not suggesting to the Maltese government and to other European governments what Mr Farrugia has suggested, that is, provide a ship to transfer these people safely from Libya to Europe?"
The trouble with RS, and all of his ilk, is that they have no yet cottoned on to the realities involved. These people are refugees originating from different parts of a failed continent and, whatever the origins of such failure, are entitled to help and support at a human level; but that aspect is evidently alien to the 'catholic, christian, saints' peopling Malta, as confirmed by the cynical suggestion to provision of a ship for the safe transfer of immigrants.

The ultimate solution depend on the level of support extended by wealthier, properly functioning, economies towards the promotion and establishment of democratic governments and viable economies in Africa. An interim solution could be the introduction of skill-based controlled immigration. In the meantime, illegal immigration is here to stay.

Geir Nilsen

Sep 10th 2008, 13:14

@ E Gatt

http://www.globalpropertyguide.com/Europe/Malta/Buying-Guide

"Stamp duty for foreigners is the normal rate of 5% of selling price. For Maltese citizens buying a main residence, stamp duty is 3.5% for the first €116,468, the remaining balance is subject to the normal rate of 5%."

But of course, the website might just make this up for the fun of it. However, a swimming pool is a must if a foreigner wants be CONSIDERED to be able to rent out. I am Norwegian, and we are a member of EEC like Switzerland and Iceland, so it actually works out the same as EU. We have the same rights and we actually pay more to EU than other EU countries! The Norwegian government as gone through the back-door to EU, even though the Norwegian population in a referendum said no to joining the EU. My wife is Finnish, so EU-citizen.

And what about the VAT on weddings? Do you think it is ok that we, who pay 10 times more in tax (yes, also earning 10 times more) and are a MASSIVE income for you, don't get what you get? It does not happen in Scandinavia or Britain (lived there 5 years).

M Calleja

Sep 10th 2008, 13:08

@ Geir Nilsen

That's the way Europe is running these days. If you work hard, have a career and possibly get a PhD all you get is taxes and the scorn of everyone else who could not be asked to do the same.

You certainly won't get the sympathy of human rights activists. And it is their opinion which counts, everyone else is either a racist, a xenophobe or a moron.

Michael A. Vella

Sep 10th 2008, 13:03

@ I M Dingli: " ...maybe they are afraid of cheap labour." And what is 'cheap labour' other than further evidence of the exploitative, unchristian, character of the so-called catholic locals.

Raymond Sammut

Sep 10th 2008, 12:21

@ E Gatt

You sound like someone on the ball, but your last statement at least is not true. I have read several comments on The Times in the past made by Maltese complaining about Romanians, for example.

The issues are illegal immigration, the absence of border control, and the Maltese government not doing anything to address people's concerns which are clearly justified and have nothing to do with what you are trying to imply in your second comment.

John Portelli

Sep 10th 2008, 11:31

All these stories about migrants due to drowing are really sad. I wish someone tells these people of the consequenses of crossing over. My assumption is that Libya is worse than there own countries. It's really sad that the EU and the west are now accepting Libya and it's leader into the world community again (it must be the oil), however, pressure is not placed on Libya and it's leaders to stop the illegal flow and illegal activities eminating from Libya. Libya is breaking all international laws associated with refuguees and the EU directives associated with human trafficking. The sad part is that the EU wants malta to be a detention center for these illegals and we are stuck. One last thougth. I rarely hear a word of praise to our herioc rescuers who go out to sea and rescue all these people. We do hear of the criticism. These people who rescue all these people should receive the "Noble Peace Price" for their efforts. I say shame on the EU and the Maltese political establishment for saying little in both praise to our people as well as to address the human trafficking issue.

E Gatt

Sep 10th 2008, 11:08

@ Joseph Schembri

"What the majority of the Maltese population does not condone is the financial burden that these people represent and the fact that a foreign culture is imposing itself on our cherished Maltese way of life."

At last someone has spit it out. The thing that they are afraid of is that "a foreign culture is imposing itself on our cherished (sic) Maltese way of life."

And you all say you are not racists?

How come no-one comments on the vast numbers of East Europeans working in Malta? How come that these racist posts appear even if a Nigerian is detained at the airport coming in Malta as a regular tourist with drugs? He was not coming in Malta as an irregular but the comments here made it appear so. How come these type of comments does not appear when a European is detained bringing drugs in Malta?

E Gatt

Sep 10th 2008, 10:59

Well Mr Nilsen, before posting your comments here and complaining about being discriminated, please get your facts right.

You said you are Scandinavian but did not specify whether you come from an EU country or not. If you want to buy prioperty in Malta to be used as your residence and you are an EU citizen, you will pay stamp duty exactly as if you were a Maltese citizen. If you are not an EU citizen, you will only pay €1,747 more, as if a Maltese person is buying his second property. And no, it does not have to have a swimming pool. The only restriction is that an aprtment have to cost you more than €100,000 while a house have to cost you more than €175,000. But then, who can find property cheaper than that nowadays? And if you want to sell, you will be treated as a Maltese citizen and if you sell before 3 years you will pay capital gains tax.

If you pay tax ten times more than an average Maltese it means that you are earning ten times more than the average Maltese.

So where is the discrimination?

Geir Nilsen

Sep 10th 2008, 09:50

@ Joseph Briffa

The Africans will be considered for a Maltese passport after 16 years, not 5 years which is only theory. So the Africans will be stuck here, and 16 years down the line most will have made African friends and live happily in their ghettoes. Muslims don't want to integrate anywhere in the world. Eventually there will be lots of no-go zones where the Maltese dare not enter.

Me and my wife (with a PhD) are a Scandinavian couple. It didn't cost Malta a thing to educate us through schools. We came to this country with a high education and lots of work-experience, so we pay tax from the first day on Maltese soil. We are therefore a great source of income. I personally pay about 10 times more tax than the average Maltese and spend all my money here, but still we are being subjected to discrimination. If I want to buy a house, I have to pay a lot more in stamp duty. It must have a swimming-pool and can't be sold on/rented out in 3 years etc. Maltese get VAT back on weddings, but we don't get a cent! But Africans?

cqrmelo pace

Sep 10th 2008, 07:37

@micheal a vella for the moment yes its our jobs, I hope the prime minister wake up to his responsibility and tackle this problem seriously.not even a word coming out of castille about this problem, and this goes for the leader of the opposition as well to, for he have apart to play in this situation.

Joseph Schembri

Sep 10th 2008, 07:33

Why is it that when one speaks out against illegal immigration one is instantly labeled as 'xenophobic'? For the most part the Maltese are tolerant, if not hospitable, to these unwelcome visitors - this can be seen from the fact that they are "scrupulouously (sic) clean, wearing freshly-laundered and neatly pressed clothes". Where did they get these neatly pressed clothes? Certainly not off the boat they came from. What the majority of the Maltese population does not condone is the financial burden that these people represent and the fact that a foreign culture is imposing itself on our cherished Maltese way of life.

Mar Dar

Sep 10th 2008, 07:30

At news value although I am totally against the arrival of any illegal immigrant, it is always bad to hear of any loss of life.
@MA Vella
I assume you are from Marsa since you know what these individuals do? And I am also assuming that since you are from Marsa you are more than comfortable with the present situation in Marsa. If you are not from Marsa, you cannot and you don't even have the right to put forward such a statement simply from a 30 second drive which you might take through Marsa.
I am not xenophobic, or feel inadequate or fear losing my job - I am simply not comfortable at all any more living in my own village and paying through my taxes for the stay of who comes over here illegally.
I am not from Marsa but I am from Birzebbuga so I know well what the illegal immigrants do and don't do or how they dress (in particular to the branded t-shirts) or the mobiles they carry and the mountain bikes they own together with the cars they drive. Unless you live in my situation you cannot judge or accuse me of anything.

P Debono

Sep 10th 2008, 06:55

Great, so now they're bringing their children with them too.

MALTA IS SMALL ENOUGH AS IT IS.

Denis Catania

Sep 10th 2008, 04:29

The blood of these people are on the hands, of the Maltese that condone such dangerous voyages. Stop the journeys, and the killing of woman and children will stop with it. Only the big boys at the EU can stop this. How ironic that they stopped the killings in Georgia. It's amazing how fast summits were called. We can send forces to Africa and stop the dictators in a month's time.

Raymond Sammut

Sep 10th 2008, 03:54

@ Michael A,. Vella

It is clear, from your comment, that you really care.

Why are you not suggesting to the Maltese government and to other European governments what Mr Farrugia has suggested, that is, provide a ship to transfer these people safely from Libya to Europe?

I. M. Dingli

Sep 10th 2008, 00:51

@ Michael A. Vella

As to your last paragraph... maybe they are afraid of cheap labour.

isobel mcgonigle

Sep 10th 2008, 00:25

@Micheal A Vella.
See if you have the same opinion in a few years time.
Watch Malta slowly become one big no go area.
Where have you been Mr Vella these past years, have you had your head so buried in the sand that you have not noticed the devastating effect illegal immigration is having on the rest of Europe?

Michael A,. Vella

Sep 9th 2008, 23:02

@A. Agius: "...our unscrupulous tormentors abide by the rules of their jungle..." betrays Agius's blinkered concept of the geography of the African continent and of its inhabitants who are more varied those in Europe, with a wide spectrum of languages and religious beliefs.

Though drawn from different ethnic groups and compelled to live in cramped conditions their behaviour is one of exemplary tolerance, even under such trying conditions. This contrasts sharply with the intolerance and unchristian attitudes that have come to characterise the comments on this site. That much is confirmed by the two comments without any inkling of compassion so far annexed to the news item covering the death by drowning of a woman, and the near demise of 27 others including 2 infants.

What one invariably sees in the vicinity of the Open Centre in Marsa, are individuals who are scrupulouously clean, wearing freshly-laundered and neatly pressed clothes, sitting around and generally minding their own business.

The negative comments that are consistently posted regarding these arrivals to our shores only serve to illustrate the xenophobia and, yes, feelings of inadequacy, on the part of the writers, else why should they worry that foreigners will take over their jobs.

Joseph E Briffa

Sep 9th 2008, 21:33

Mr Agius and Farrugia... I am sorry to say that you are being naive. Malta cannot afford to quarrel with Gaddafi in the hope that he let's us join in oil exploration in the contested region where experts believe oil will be struck. So Malta is relieving Libya off these immigrants from Somalia, Ethiopia and Eritrea - remember that these three countries together with Libya are all ex-Italian colonies . Libya wants to get rid off them as the Libyans look down on these people, although they are all Muslims. Most probably these people want to go to Italy, their ex-mother country. They know that once they get asylum here and qualify eventually for a Maltese passport they can just go over to Italy or wherever in other EU states. They are using Malta as a stepping stone. they know that they are not welcome here but they know they have to grin and bear it until such time as they move on to other EU member states where they are 'lost' in the crowd. i wouldn't worry unduly.

A.Agius

Sep 9th 2008, 21:02

I agree & well spoken STEPHEN.
You said it all. But it appears that our leaders (both political sides) have their hands tied behind their backs. The Maltese have to act in a tolerant hospitable mode & play above board & abide by the international humane rules.
Naturally our unscrupulous tormentors abide by the rules of their jungle & don't mind whether they are labelled as uncivilised or any other adjective you care to quote.
No lasting mutual solution in sight. According to local media AFM effect a rescue, here there & every where but no Country rescues us but rather helps to rescue more of them.

Stephen Farrugia

Sep 9th 2008, 20:06

The people that are supporting immigration and intergration, will have to answer for the large amount of people lost at sea. They promise them that they stay in Malta, knowing that the Maltese have already said "NO", using the funds for their social work jobs and other interests.

If they really cared for these people, they would send a ship over to Libya every week and take them to another country but we know what the true story is all about.