Religious symbols in hospital

Mr Vassllo, thankyou for counting my exclamation marks! There goes another one!
It just shows me that you are nitpicking instead of finding something intelligent to say on the matter in hand! There goes another one! You are so keen to find fault with me that you cannot even put my name in which, you will find, is not George! There's another one!

You are trying so hard to put a spin on an argument contrary to your own that you even accuse me of rage!

Please look at the tone of your own messages on here and see that the accusations you are throwing in the direction of George Cowie are as a result of your frustration of being in the minority on this subject! You have not really read what I have said but merely put your own spin on it!

So let me say clearly, without any animosity or rage or any of the other traits you wish to project onto me from yourself, that I will pray for you that you will just accept Jesus' presence both in your heart and in the Mater Dei Hospital.

Did you notice that there is no exclamation mark?

@Raphael V. The effects of prayer both by the patient and for the patient have been statistically shown to be effective. Please note the word 'statistically'. I have read scientific reports to this effect. Other experiments may show otherwise and I will not confute them. Neither should you confute what goes against your grain. Wouldn't life be so beautiful and perfect if everything goes the way we wish? Now it's a matter of having faith in faith or in non-faith. The choice is yours; its your right to think and believe what you think is right and i will defend your right to it. Likewise I have the right to think and believe even that little green men live on Mars or wherever.

Unfortunately there is a worldwide drive against Christianity, making some (most?) Christians themselves afraid to exhibit their faith. We must remember that western civilization as we know it today has its roots in Christianity and Christian morality, warts and all. Where this basic morality has died, society has gone to the dogs. In London itself, where children go to religiously-sterile schools and without any exposure to moral values, child murders and violence have exploded. They do not learn the basic social laws as found in the 7 commandments now they are reaping what has been sown in the past.

George Cowie, I tried counting the number of exclamations in your two outbursts and I lost count very quickly. This should give an idea of who is really ranting and raving here. The reason I am interested in statistics is that they present a clear picture of the real state of play... something which you will never get by listening to well-worn personal prejudices like "Malta is catholic, full-stop." If Malta really is as Catholic as you make it out, then the statistics will support your argument. Trouble is, you have already decided what conclusion you want to reach, and anything that doesn't fit provokes an instant reaction of fury, of the kind printed below. Interesting, though, that you accuse of me 'bitterness" and "anger" when your own writing is positively contorted with rage...
Alex ellul: in actual fact, the effect of prayer on convalescence is something which can very much be measured by scientific experiment. Whether you like the results of the experiments or not, of course, is another matter altogether.

I must correct Mr Raphael Vassallo who speaks of me as "invoking the devil"!The one who is "ranting and raving" here is you, Mr Vassallo!  Do you know what the word "invoking" means?  If you look it up you will see how foolish it is to use such words to try to justify yourself, when you do not even know what you are writing!  The mere fact that you go on such an offensive against those who wish to keep religion alive and not hidden, suggests the influence of evil at work.  I invoke God!!!Mr Casha, please note that if you claim to be of the Catholic faith then it is your sure duty to proclaim it from the rooftops and not keep it hidden.  Indeed the crucifix may not be a pleasant image to you, and neither is it meant to be a pleasant image!  But it is a well known one and I would be interested to know how you are so sure that somebody who is ill would find it abhorrent."They will know we are Christians by our love" is a well known hymn taken from the bible.  Those symbols which we use to help us to strengthen our faith are all part of the bigger picture.  And of course the cross is not just for Catholics.  What is wrong with a symbol which reminds us of the sacrifice of Christ?  There are places in this world where people are still persecuted for their Christian beliefs, notably India, China, etc.  Yes, it is important to "do unto others as I have done to you"  and of course Christ was not afraid to do this as well as preach it.  To me this means not hiding from the Truth or trying to hide the Truth. 

Please do not try to put a spin on things by suggesting that this should include not "offending" others by putting up a crucifix in the hospital, or anywhere else for that matter!  That, Mr Casha,  is like the maidens hiding their lights under the bushels. It also suggests that you are uncomfortable with your faith. My actions are important, yes, I agree. And my action is to put Christ where He can be seen!

Well, Mr Raphael Vassallo, what bitter feelings you express! And for one who is unhappy with "sweeping statements" by others, you have made a fair few yourself!
Like myself you were baptised soon after your birth. But clearly you are unhappy with the Church's teachings and perhaps there is a lot more than meets the eye to what you are saying. If you see the chain of messages beneath this letter you will see how very isloated you are on this issue.
If you detest the crucifix and what it reminds you of your lack of choice of belief, then just don't look at it! What interest do you have in keeping the crucifix and other Christian symbols out of the Mater Dei Hospital? Why does it upset you so much that so many people, as represented by writers and commenters on this newspaper's website, do in fact want to maintain evidence of religious beliefs in your country's hospital?
I do not know why you are trying so desperately hard to prove that Malta is not a Catholic country. Why on earth all the statistics? What do they prove? God will not be sidelined by you or by anybody else! Just accept that religious symbols are here to stay and anybody who does not believe can ignore them. It is pointless trying to say that others find them offensive. It is YOU who find them offensive - that is what this is all about! The Good News is that God will not ignore anybody - not even you!

"They absolutely must be done in such a way that everyone sees them whether they want to or not. Can someone explain why this is so critically important to their faith?" It isn't critically important to our (their) faith but it would be a convenience if it is provided. And if it is provided, it shouldn't pose such a critical problem to those that don't believe (or believe otherwise).

@Raphael Vassallo: It depends on what reports or magazines you read. There have been reports that statistically show what i have written; that prayers work. And by the way: One cannot experiment with prayer. Praying is a very personal activity. It's not like taking an opinion poll or measuring the distance between the left and the right ear and weighing what's in between.

On the subject of the efficacy of prayer, this is from Prof. David Myers' blog:

* A 1997 experiment on “Intercessory Prayer in the Treatment of Alcohol Abuse and Dependence” found no measurable effect of intercessory prayer.
* A 1998 experiment with arthritis patients reported that no significant effect from distant prayer was found.
* A 1999 study of 990 coronary care patients—who were unaware of the study—reported about 10 percent fewer complications for the half who received prayers “for a speedy recovery with no complications.” But there was no difference in specific major complications such as cardiac arrest, hypertension and pneumonia, with the median hospital stay the same 4.0 days for both groups.
* A 2001 Mayo Clinic study of 799 coronary care patients offered a simple result: “As delivered in this study, intercessory prayer had no significant effect on medical outcomes,” the study said.
* A 2005 Duke University study of 848 coronary patients found no significant difference in clinical outcomes between those prayed for and those not.

Amid these negative results, one stunning result challenged my prediction. “Prayer works,” said a headline in The New York Times magazine after a 2001 Journal of Reproductive Medicine article reported that prayed-for women undergoing in vitro fertilization experienced a 50 percent pregnancy rate—double the 26 percent rate among those not receiving experimental intercessory prayers.

In answer to Gerry Cowie... what "fence" are you talking about? And do you mean, "your" religion? I don't know how it works in the UK, but people here are baptised into a faith when they are but a few weeks old, and I was no exception. I was never asked my opinion in the matter, nor told what other options were available, still less was I given any choice.
As for the view that "like it or not, Malta is a predominantly Catholic country"... can you prove this, please? Cowie might not like the result of the poll I referred to above, but unlike his own sweeping statement, at least it represents an honest attempt to actually gauge the number of practising Catholics in Malta. Compared to previous surveys, it suggests a drop of over 30% in the past 30 years. Cowie can spit and rage and invoke the devil as much as he likes, but the fact of the matter is that the old maxim of "Malta Cattolicissima" must be revised in the light of this evidence. At the very least, we should drop the "issima" at the end, and add a "piuttosto" in between.

On the subject of evidence, can Alex Ellul kindly provide some to support his view that prayers help a patient's recovery "also when the patient is prayed for by other persons without his knowledge"? As far I can tell, there have been numerous experiments in this regard, and they all returned the same results: i.e., that prayers for the recovery an unwitting patient had no discernible effect whatsoever.

It's interesting that many who disagree compare the situation to places like Saudi Arabia. I have to say that's not the most exemplary place where religious tolerance is concerned.

In my letter I proposed having each person bring their own personal religious items. This should keep everyone happy, allowing each individual to choose those images that they find most helpful and agreeable. Yet to some it is not enough that they can see and appreciate these images. They absolutely must be done in such a way that everyone sees them whether they want to or not. Can someone explain why this is so critically important to their faith?

It has been statistically shown that praying to one's God actually speeds up recovery from sickness and injury. Not only when a sick person resorts to praying, but also when the patient is prayed for by other persons without his knowledge.

Let the people set up religious symbols in our hospitals. They are a symbol of hope for the great majority of hospital patients, not only in Malta but in many countries with Christian roots. Being a non-practising Christian does not translate into an unbeliever. Many do return to some form of religious performance when in dire straights.

I do not understand some Maltese citizens' anti-religious expressions, sometimes even from practising Christians themselves. Political correctness is the name of the problem. With such attitudes, the day will come when all streets in Malta named for saints will have to be renamed after some politically correct guy, churches will have their crosses and statues removed or covered, with the stupid excuse not to hurt thefeelings of non-Christians. I never feel hurt or offended by any non-Christian or atheistic expressions, so why should non-Christians feel offended? After all arn't we residing in our own home? Do I remove my religious symbols from my own home if I invite a non-Christian for a drink? Mutual respect must be thename of the game, not sham political correctness.

It seems that we Christians will one day be chained to a wall and fed to the politically correct lions residing in the left wing-presses and parliaments of Europe. The Soviets did it by brute force, the politically-correct anti-theists are a little bit more shrewed.

Ramon, what a display of bitterness in your letter. What should we do next, take down our churches, statues and niches so as not to offend anyone who is not Catholic? How trivial. A crucifix and other religious icons in a hospital bring comfort and hope for most people. Of course, for some who fashion themselves as intellectuals, religion is still opium for the masses.

How sad that the likes of Ramon Casha and those of his ilk.In the UK we have a chapel at Gatwick which panders to the desires of all faiths and seems to satisfy most - the few who use it!Like it or not, Malta is a predominantly Catholic country, whichever survey you chose to use to put a different spin on things!I have no problem with the crucifix being displayed.  It is political correctness gone mad to suggest that it is disrespectful to others to display the crucifix!  Next thing you know it will be banned from churches in case it offends a passer by!When it comes to watering down the faith and trying to prove that the majority are not Catholic, one asks Raphael Vassallo which side of the fence he is on?  Even Mr Baldocchino seems to have gone rather politically correct! Is nobody proud of their faith any more? Are you going to go off to say, Saudi Arabia and demand that all their religious symbols be removed because they offend you?

Basically what is happening here is that people are jumping on the bandwagon of trying to push God out of the public eye! That is the devil's work, of course! But God will not be sidelined, so let's just accept it!

Since the overall consensus of the island are without doubt Catholic, Catholic religious symbols should be displayed in the hospital.

Meanwhile the other minorities should respect the fact that religion has and continues to play a major role in Maltese culture.

The Catholic faith is highly unlikely to become a minority religion any time soon. Even if the percentage of practising Catholics dwindles to far below 50% in future, the remaining 50%+ are unlikely to all adhere to a single, majority religion. I reckon Catholicism will see its majority reduced to a relative one, possibly quite soon, but that relative majority will remain a majority vis-a-vis any other single faith for a great many years to come. Admittedly there could come a time (history is full of examples) when a new faith may arrive and sweep away the old... Christianity after all swept away both the Roman pagan belief system and Zoroastrianism from Europe - and in that case, future generations should be left free to take stock of the situation and structure their own societies accordingly.
That, i believe, would be "Free Religion" at work. But then, the self-styled proponents of "Free Religion" also seem to believe in changing present-day structures - for instance, the Constitution - specifically to ward off the future germination of new belief systems which may threaten their own.
Strange definition of "freedom", that.

Oh no! The end is nigh, as everyone is "imposing religious symbols" upon us! I can't even believe how people are talking.

Not displaying a religious symbol doesn't mean you're respecting the minorities. I'm very sorry, but if for every little thing that happens we're offending someone than we might as well all shut up and stare at each other.

When Catholics become the minority, as Mr. Vassallo seems to enjoy emphasizing, will we be justified in saying that "we're being imposed stuff"?

I'm sure that as a country that believes in Free Religion, it remains the sole decision of whoever manages the hospital whether there are any religious symbols or not. We can give our opinion, but going as far as saying you're feeling "offended" and "imposed" is a bit over the top and to me it looks like someone wants to have it his own way.

After all, I don't feel "offended" when I see a non-Catholic, so why should a non-Catholic feel offended for seeing a Catholic?

When I lasted checked, Malta was an overwhelmingly Catholic country. Minorities should respect this as we do when we go to muslim or hindu countries. This is not disrespectful to minorities, it is part of our identity. Next we'll be taking the crucifix out of classrooms as happens in France. Come on Ramona, let's not make a big deal out of this.

90% of Maltese are Catholics? I think not. A recent poll conducted by the Catholic Church itself suggests a population of practising Catholics of around 55%. I think we have to start drawing a distinction between "cultural Catholics" - people baptised and brought up in the context of a predominantly Catholic society - and those who genuinely adhere to the One True Holy and Apostolic Church. The former often drift away, sometimes renouncing Catholicism altogether, sometimes wearing it much as one would wear a beanie. I know quite a few who would fit into that category, but who are fervent believers in (for instance) reincarnation. The latter are the ones who tend to get upset about the lack of religious symbols in a hospital. And for some reason, they seem to think the entire country belongs to them. Oh well.

Regarding the Cross the Word of God says:

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. (1 Corinthians 1:18-25)

I agree with Mr Casha, The hospital is not run by the Chatolic church but a state hospital, so it should not impose any religious symbol on anybody, even if the majority of Maltese are fervent chatolics, it is a sign of respect to the minority of the people of these islands and foreigners who are unfortunate enough to need the services of the hospital

I still can't see what is the actual problem you're finding Mr. Casha. It's not like you're being called an idiot or being made to walk backwards into the hospital and neither is buying a crucifix going to drive the state into bankruptcy.

A crucifix, to someone who is not a Christian, should remind him/her of a man who didn't complain when forced to die even if He had all the right to do so. This is general knowledge, not religion.

One who believes in Free Religion will not feel uncomfortable with religious symbols that have been placed there by the owners of that place (try going to a Chinese restaurant). If whoever is managing the hospital is a Muslim and he decides to place symbols having to do with Islam (it would be something new and unusual in Malta) then I won't feel any inconvenience with being next to one.

Finally, should the government stop financing the Muslim graveyard being set up because it will cater for one religion using the money given to it by all taxpayers?